AnimeSuki Forums

DarknessTear · 2006-03-16, 06:30

I keep thinking that Vincent = one of the Proxies. It would explain some things.

Alorin · 2006-03-16, 12:33

I won't doubt that Vincent could very well be Ergo Proxy.
But he seems far too human, so I'm doubting it a bit.

Going on the hypothesis that the two proxies each have a human form...

My thoughts are that the red haired man in the first episode, holding a crescent shaped pendant just like Vincent's, is probably the other proxy.
(Well, if it isn't Vincent himself, that is.)

On the WOWOW website, the alternate name for Ergo Proxy, in kanji, translates to something along the lines of "death's agent" or "death's substitute." Which doesn't seem to bode well if Vincent actually is a proxy.

***

Also, could the outside world be a factor? Could it be that everyone who leaves the bubble of Romdeau City is/becomes a proxy?

physics223 · 2006-03-16, 17:50

I don't think so. I believe the world outside Romdeau or Romudo is a world of sand, from the trailer that I have seen. I imagine Lir would later escape to that city or forcefully go there.

I STILL don't believe Vincent is a proxy. He looks too good. lol

Ansible · 2006-03-16, 20:58

Ok, here's my guess as to what is the deal with Vincent. I think he's got some kind of mental disorder, a split personality or suppressed trauma or something. There is some kind of link between him and the monster. Maybe the monster was associated with vincent at one time, either as his personal autorave, or part of some sort of project of vincent's - after all he's a technical repairman, maybe he built something he shouldn't, or was part of some dodgy project and is now trying to be on the straight and narrow. But anyway, my point is that I think perhaps the monster is in touch with some dark side of vincent, that like most autoraves carry out the concious desires of humans, maybe this one has tapped into the unconcious instead, with violent and unpredictable results.

MrProphet · 2006-03-16, 22:40

I find the notion of Vincent being Monad extremely displeasing. It is so utterly unoriginal and been-there-done-that that I don't really want to believe all the hints they've been dropping on us. It is TOO obvious, it's something most of us thought immediately. Thus, if they are indeed trying to be mysterious, it has to be a red herring.

Another reason why Vincent is not Monad is that Raul has been looking out for the second proxy for quite some time, so when they got Vincent after episode 1, I don't believe he would have overlooked the fact that Vincent could be the one. For one, a physical examination would have revealed that Vincent is biologically not human.

I think Vincent's problem is more connected to psychiatry. He exibits common aspects of schizophrenia, like not remembering periods of time and "awakening" to his other self. So, the "other Vincent" must be just a part of his personality and I think that Monad is separate from him physically.

On the other hand, I think the theory of Monad being built by Vincent, or just attaching itself to Vincent for some reason or the other to be far more probable. It would explain what Monad was doing at Ril's place, since Vincent has been stalking Ril and Monad perhaps wanted to check her out as well.

kitsukamo · 2006-03-17, 02:23

hi! i just saw this series a couple of days ago and became interested to know more, so I google it and found this forum. I read through most of the discussions here (quite fascinating and fruitful read I might say

) and re-watched the episodes that are out.

From re-watching the episodes a second time around, I believe that Vincent has to be Monard. The hints are quite obvious. :-/

Not only that, but as for the question of proxy...supposedly proxy are beings with special cells that allows immortality. Somehow, the proxy's cell 'awakens' other auto-ravs because it causes a disturbances in the magnetic force or something like that. (see episode 2 in which Ril sees her doc and discovers the word. If you pause and read what she finds on the screen, then I'm sure it'll explain things a bit.) Therefore proxy are not auto-ravs, but rather some kind of organic beings (which explains why Vincent can still be scanned). And I think Vincent is the second proxy who infects the other auto-revs because he has direct contact with them (for example, fixing Pino and making eye-contact with her during the mall).

The higher ups or the councils and whatnot apparantly wants these proxy capture alive. Why? I think it has to do with immortality and power. I get a haunch proxy are experimental beings created so the councils can achieve power and immortality (the vegetable state of the grandfather could be a possibility why the councils want the proxy alive. they might use it to lengthen the grandfather's life so he can maintain order and control). In addition to this observation, in episode one, Daedalus (however you spell his name XD

also mentioned something about power when Raul asked why they were monitoring such a creature.

If this is the case then I think the plot becomes more apparant. As several people have pointed out, this world is a dystopia. And I think the hero (vincent?) and heroine(Ril?) will go about trying to break this dystopia world apart. Hints for the plot is in the first episode one. There is a man with spiky hair who says something about the creator's evil power and bam - a gleam in his eye. I think this guy wants to go against the Romdo system. Somehow, I think he's related to Vincent (maybe they both wanted to get rid of the system? or Vincent was the one who made him a Proxy? I'm not really sure XD ), which probably explains why he pursues Vincent. I think the council senses the potential threat and wants Raul to do something about it.

I think that Ril might be a proxy too who's being manipulated by the council. I dont think she is a granddaughter to the old man. I came to this conclusion in the second episode where Ril asks about the definition of a proxy and the council refused to tell her. Yet they told it to Raul (well, I inferred that they did by his inouvert action to investigate the proxy on his own). Then in the third episode the councils were saying that Ril lived like a good citizen and regrets making her part of the government now because now that she's known about proxy, she might do something that will unstabilize Romdo. If that's true, it could probably explain why Monard targets her because he probably sees her as an potential factor to go against the system. (Or he just likes her. :P )

Of course this is just one aspect of the anime that I saw as I watched it again. Existence, consciousness and will, which was brought up by you guys are also in it too.

Also, before I forget, I think Raul is the father to Pino. Even tho he's never present nor does he not mention anything about his family, I think he knew everything was set up as bait for the Proxy. I also think the woman knew she was going to die because of the phonecall before the mall and during the escalator. This was probably why he didn't look too surprised when they died (he had prepared himself?). But I think he felt their deaths was not worth it (which explains why he was quite angry when he met the councils again) and will probably find ways to defy the councils. I havent really figure this guy out tho. XD; I guess I"ll have to see...

anyway, I'm getting sleepy and I'm writing too much. Sorry about that but this series is just so good that I couldn't stop myself. XD

MrProphet · 2006-03-17, 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by kitsukamo

Not only that, but as for the question of proxy...supposedly proxy are beings with special cells that allows immortality. Somehow, the proxy's cell 'awakens' other auto-ravs because it causes a disturbances in the magnetic force or something like that. (see episode 2 in which Ril sees her doc and discovers the word. If you pause and read what she finds on the screen, then I'm sure it'll explain things a bit.) Therefore proxy are not auto-ravs, but rather some kind of organic beings (which explains why Vincent can still be scanned).

That's some leap of logic!

To say that, well, Amrita cells break the cell death limit, so they allow immortality, THEREFORE Proxy must not be an autoreiv.

That's ludicrous!

First of all, we don't know if Ergo Proxy carries Amrita cells. We only know that Proxy project is somhow connected to the Amrita project. It could just be an offshoot...

Second, I fail to grasp how did you come to a conclusion that Proxy is not an autoreiv? It just escapes me...

BTW, autoreiv are organic in the first place. They are biomechanoids. But their organic composition is not human. That's what they police should have spotted, if Vincent is Monad.

physics223 · 2006-03-17, 09:54

Whereever were Amrita cells mentioned? The name itself eludes me.

Alorin · 2006-03-17, 10:14

The Amrita cells were never talked about per se, but as kitsukamo pointed out, if you look at episode two when Lil/Ril accesses the proxy file in Daedalus's office, the file does make mention to Amrita cells and their ability to divide infinitely, that is, live forever.

According to the file, proxies are confirmed and identified as proxies by their reaction to these experimental cells.

wao · 2006-03-17, 10:22

For now I think Mahou Shounen Vincento-tan is definitely definitely linked to the guy with red hair, and I don't think that guy is a Proxy - but a third party, perhaps a modified human (who's not modified enough to be noticed I guess). It would be a more than bit of a stretch to say that Vincent actually physically morphs into the guy - seriously, how?! - but if he does... then he sure as hell is mahou shounen alright. The stock transformation sequences shall be decidedly more angsty than anyone expects... no nudity though, thank you very much... and also I might send a flying dagger at manglobe/Sato/Murase...

But I still think it's quite cool how he can become more of a main character. I'm really looking forward to see how his character development synchs with Ril's... Episode 1, Awakening - I guess I'm just thick, but I only realised it was the beginning of awakening for both of them, in a way I guess... We actually see Vincent before Ril, sheesh

And I refuse to accept that Ril's name is Real, even though it has relevance I think it's going too far - it just seems plain contrived, even if that was her intended name right from the start. And also, if they intend it to be Real in English and リル in Japanese, they might want to relook at their transliteration

$deity forbid me if she ends up being Lil in the official subs. Eh.

physics223 · 2006-03-17, 10:46

Lir as a name is symbolic -- Lir is the deity of the sea in Celtic mythology. I'm okay with Lir and I'm okay with Ril. It's just that Ril doesn't really have any nominal significance, where as all the other characters allude to some renowned people.

Ah. Thanks. I'll have to rewatch episode two, then. I've watched ep. one so many times ... but I haven't rewatched the other episodes as of now.

Quajafrie · 2006-03-17, 11:12

It can't be Real. It just doesn't make any sense... Because if it was Real the katakana should be リアル, right?

Well, I have to say I love Ergo Proxy, judging only from the first episode (I've seen it three times). It's sophisticated, appealing, thrilling, intriguing, and I have to say I seem to like its world more than GITS or other sci-fi anime.

MrProphet · 2006-03-17, 11:13

I wonder if there is any cultural reference in the shape of the "Magical Pendanto" (as wao has hilariously dubbed it)? It looks like broked part of a clock gear to me. Anyone recognizes anything?

Also, why does it have a roman XIII on it? Any connection to something? Besides 13 being a devil's dozen number. That is rather uninteresting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quajafrie

It can't be Real. It just doesn't make any sense... Because if it was Real the katakana should be リアル, right?

Only if it's the english word "real". Which her name does not have to be. I realize that this board is decidedly anglo-centric, but try not to think of everything in terms of English.

"Seal", "beak", "creak"... all similar words are pronounced with an [i] phoneme.

wao · 2006-03-17, 14:48

リル certainly can't pass for "Real" in the typical English pronounciation of it (because we all know about English and it's stupid variations... bough, trough, through). At the very least it should have an extended sound - リール. Since when did anyone pronounce "Real" like "Ril"? Seriously, that is.

Or knowing that they're ultimately aiming for the US audience maybe they purposely put something that's bound to confuse us with the silly transliteration... aah.

I don't know many other languages, but are there any other languages besides English where the pronounciation of リル is spelled as "Real"? No, ErgoProxyese is not allowed.

TougeSil80 · 2006-03-17, 15:23

Lir is good, but I would probably translate it to Liru or Lilu.

physics223 · 2006-03-18, 05:44

[i] phoneme? I certainly don't read 'Real' as 'Ril.' I don't think others do that as well. It's known as the long e sound ... but maybe you do in your countries ... depends on the taste of people I guess, but it is a universally accepted standard in pronouncing real with a long e sound rather than an i one ... You CAN always deviate, though.

MrProphet · 2006-03-18, 09:13

OMG! Bishounen Vincent!!! 8)))

Episde 4 is out and Ergo Proxy delivers once again. Some of the questions we've been asking here are somewhat hinted at.

Spoiler:

Ansible · 2006-03-18, 13:37

Quote:

I wonder if there is any cultural reference in the shape of the "Magical Pendanto" (as wao has hilariously dubbed it)? It looks like broked part of a clock gear to me. Anyone recognizes anything?

It kind of reminds me of Prince's symbol when he was "the artist formerly known as prince". Maybe because Vincent is the prince of autorave technicians?

AisuruMirai · 2006-03-18, 15:58

おそくなってすみません。

Spoiler for ep4:

Some info:
From ep1:

Spoiler for Contains full frontal nudity!!!:

Initially, I had thought that this was a reference to the movie Blade Runner; I think that there is a scene w/ Roy Batty (the robot) posed like that when he & Deckard (Harrison Ford) are on the roof. (I saw the film about 2 years ago, so I'm not sure.) Then I realized that both the Blade Runner scene (assuming I'm not mistaken about its existence) & the Ergo Proxy scene are both likely references to the creation scene from Michelangelo's Sistene Chapel ceiling.

I've noticed that some people are refering to him as Monad, but the one that cries w/ リル is Ergo Proxy. Monad Proxy is the one from Daedalus's lab.

Character lineup from 1st preview:

Note also that there are even more characters named after philosophers. Raul's lipstick entourage is called Kristeva (voiced by the amazing Kuwashima Houko); the two autoraves that stand behind Daedalus are Guattari & Deleuze.

Daedalus was mentioned before as the father of Icarus, but more relevant here, I think, is that he also created the Labyrinth that encaged the Minotaur. (Note that ep3 is titled "mazecity" & that "labyrinthine" appears in the ep4 preview, lending support to the relevance of the Minotaur myth.) The Minotaur is, in a sense, Daedalus's own creation as well, b/c he made the contraption that allowed Minos's wife, Pasiphae, to have sex w/ a bull & conceive the Minotaur. Ergo Proxy's Daedalus might be seen as Proxy's creator, & Proxy might be seen as the child of two beings--not of beast & human, but of human & machine. (Just a possibility--there's no evidence that Proxy is part human.) Incidentally, Daedalus is also mentioned by Socrates (who is supposedly Daedalus's descendant) in Plato's Euthyphro. He is said to have made statues that move on their own & do not stay in one place.

& speaking of statues...
Someone might have said so already　(& even if no one did, I suspect most everyone knows already), but the Sages' chamber is based on the Cappella dei Medici, which houses the statue which led to the poem which led to the poem that Michelangelo wrote which appears at the start of ep1. The Sages are the statues Night, Day, Dawn, & Twilight. ("TASOGARE," which means "twilight," is the next episode's title (ep5).)

では、

アイスル未来

edit:

Spoiler for An opinion only:

MrProphet · 2006-03-18, 17:07

I like the subtle imagery of this episode. AisuruMirai already mentioned several points, but there are also things like the Nutcracker doll in the old man's house (Nutcracker, of course, being the enchanted doll who turns out to be a prince), and Vincent's perfect flat where everything is perfectly doubled (a hint of his schizophrenia/double personality?).

Of course, the intense neatness of the flat kinda hints at another of Vincent's ailments - obsessive-compulsive disorder. His stalking of Ril rather fits it.

Vincent seems to possess a whole bouquet of psychiatric illnesses. 8)

2006-03-16, 12:33	Link #242
Alorin Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006	I won't doubt that Vincent could very well be Ergo Proxy. But he seems far too human, so I'm doubting it a bit. Going on the hypothesis that the two proxies each have a human form... My thoughts are that the red haired man in the first episode, holding a crescent shaped pendant just like Vincent's, is probably the other proxy. (Well, if it isn't Vincent himself, that is.) On the WOWOW website, the alternate name for Ergo Proxy, in kanji, translates to something along the lines of "death's agent" or "death's substitute." Which doesn't seem to bode well if Vincent actually is a proxy. *** Also, could the outside world be a factor? Could it be that everyone who leaves the bubble of Romdeau City is/becomes a proxy? Last edited by Alorin; 2006-03-16 at 14:42.

2006-03-16, 17:50	Link #243
physics223 In the Tatami Galaxy ↓ Join Date: Feb 2006	I don't think so. I believe the world outside Romdeau or Romudo is a world of sand, from the trailer that I have seen. I imagine Lir would later escape to that city or forcefully go there. I STILL don't believe Vincent is a proxy. He looks too good. lol __________________ anime\|otaku - hypotheses, analyses, and musings on The Tatami Galaxy \|\| The REAL first handheld console with color!

2006-03-17, 09:54	Link #248
physics223 In the Tatami Galaxy ↓ Join Date: Feb 2006	Whereever were Amrita cells mentioned? The name itself eludes me. __________________ anime\|otaku - hypotheses, analyses, and musings on The Tatami Galaxy \|\| The REAL first handheld console with color!

2006-03-17, 10:14	Link #249
Alorin Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006	The Amrita cells were never talked about per se, but as kitsukamo pointed out, if you look at episode two when Lil/Ril accesses the proxy file in Daedalus's office, the file does make mention to Amrita cells and their ability to divide infinitely, that is, live forever. According to the file, proxies are confirmed and identified as proxies by their reaction to these experimental cells. Last edited by Alorin; 2006-03-17 at 10:28.

2006-03-17, 10:22	Link #250
wao OK. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Fields of High Attus Age: 34	For now I think Mahou Shounen Vincento-tan is definitely definitely linked to the guy with red hair, and I don't think that guy is a Proxy - but a third party, perhaps a modified human (who's not modified enough to be noticed I guess). It would be a more than bit of a stretch to say that Vincent actually physically morphs into the guy - seriously, how?! - but if he does... then he sure as hell is mahou shounen alright. The stock transformation sequences shall be decidedly more angsty than anyone expects... no nudity though, thank you very much... and also I might send a flying dagger at manglobe/Sato/Murase... But I still think it's quite cool how he can become more of a main character. I'm really looking forward to see how his character development synchs with Ril's... Episode 1, Awakening - I guess I'm just thick, but I only realised it was the beginning of awakening for both of them, in a way I guess... We actually see Vincent before Ril, sheesh And I refuse to accept that Ril's name is Real, even though it has relevance I think it's going too far - it just seems plain contrived, even if that was her intended name right from the start. And also, if they intend it to be Real in English and リル in Japanese, they might want to relook at their transliteration $deity forbid me if she ends up being Lil in the official subs. Eh. __________________ Thanks for the fish

2006-03-16, 06:30	Link #241
DarknessTear Anime-Future/Static-Subs Join Date: Nov 2003	I keep thinking that Vincent = one of the Proxies. It would explain some things.

2006-03-16, 20:58	Link #244
Ansible Member Join Date: Jan 2004	Ok, here's my guess as to what is the deal with Vincent. I think he's got some kind of mental disorder, a split personality or suppressed trauma or something. There is some kind of link between him and the monster. Maybe the monster was associated with vincent at one time, either as his personal autorave, or part of some sort of project of vincent's - after all he's a technical repairman, maybe he built something he shouldn't, or was part of some dodgy project and is now trying to be on the straight and narrow. But anyway, my point is that I think perhaps the monster is in touch with some dark side of vincent, that like most autoraves carry out the concious desires of humans, maybe this one has tapped into the unconcious instead, with violent and unpredictable results.

2006-03-16, 22:40	Link #245
MrProphet The Commissar Vanishes Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Age: 41	I find the notion of Vincent being Monad extremely displeasing. It is so utterly unoriginal and been-there-done-that that I don't really want to believe all the hints they've been dropping on us. It is TOO obvious, it's something most of us thought immediately. Thus, if they are indeed trying to be mysterious, it has to be a red herring. Another reason why Vincent is not Monad is that Raul has been looking out for the second proxy for quite some time, so when they got Vincent after episode 1, I don't believe he would have overlooked the fact that Vincent could be the one. For one, a physical examination would have revealed that Vincent is biologically not human. I think Vincent's problem is more connected to psychiatry. He exibits common aspects of schizophrenia, like not remembering periods of time and "awakening" to his other self. So, the "other Vincent" must be just a part of his personality and I think that Monad is separate from him physically. On the other hand, I think the theory of Monad being built by Vincent, or just attaching itself to Vincent for some reason or the other to be far more probable. It would explain what Monad was doing at Ril's place, since Vincent has been stalking Ril and Monad perhaps wanted to check her out as well.

2006-03-17, 02:23	Link #246
kitsukamo Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2006	hi! i just saw this series a couple of days ago and became interested to know more, so I google it and found this forum. I read through most of the discussions here (quite fascinating and fruitful read I might say ) and re-watched the episodes that are out. From re-watching the episodes a second time around, I believe that Vincent has to be Monard. The hints are quite obvious. :-/ Not only that, but as for the question of proxy...supposedly proxy are beings with special cells that allows immortality. Somehow, the proxy's cell 'awakens' other auto-ravs because it causes a disturbances in the magnetic force or something like that. (see episode 2 in which Ril sees her doc and discovers the word. If you pause and read what she finds on the screen, then I'm sure it'll explain things a bit.) Therefore proxy are not auto-ravs, but rather some kind of organic beings (which explains why Vincent can still be scanned). And I think Vincent is the second proxy who infects the other auto-revs because he has direct contact with them (for example, fixing Pino and making eye-contact with her during the mall). The higher ups or the councils and whatnot apparantly wants these proxy capture alive. Why? I think it has to do with immortality and power. I get a haunch proxy are experimental beings created so the councils can achieve power and immortality (the vegetable state of the grandfather could be a possibility why the councils want the proxy alive. they might use it to lengthen the grandfather's life so he can maintain order and control). In addition to this observation, in episode one, Daedalus (however you spell his name XD also mentioned something about power when Raul asked why they were monitoring such a creature. If this is the case then I think the plot becomes more apparant. As several people have pointed out, this world is a dystopia. And I think the hero (vincent?) and heroine(Ril?) will go about trying to break this dystopia world apart. Hints for the plot is in the first episode one. There is a man with spiky hair who says something about the creator's evil power and bam - a gleam in his eye. I think this guy wants to go against the Romdo system. Somehow, I think he's related to Vincent (maybe they both wanted to get rid of the system? or Vincent was the one who made him a Proxy? I'm not really sure XD ), which probably explains why he pursues Vincent. I think the council senses the potential threat and wants Raul to do something about it. I think that Ril might be a proxy too who's being manipulated by the council. I dont think she is a granddaughter to the old man. I came to this conclusion in the second episode where Ril asks about the definition of a proxy and the council refused to tell her. Yet they told it to Raul (well, I inferred that they did by his inouvert action to investigate the proxy on his own). Then in the third episode the councils were saying that Ril lived like a good citizen and regrets making her part of the government now because now that she's known about proxy, she might do something that will unstabilize Romdo. If that's true, it could probably explain why Monard targets her because he probably sees her as an potential factor to go against the system. (Or he just likes her. :P ) Of course this is just one aspect of the anime that I saw as I watched it again. Existence, consciousness and will, which was brought up by you guys are also in it too. Also, before I forget, I think Raul is the father to Pino. Even tho he's never present nor does he not mention anything about his family, I think he knew everything was set up as bait for the Proxy. I also think the woman knew she was going to die because of the phonecall before the mall and during the escalator. This was probably why he didn't look too surprised when they died (he had prepared himself?). But I think he felt their deaths was not worth it (which explains why he was quite angry when he met the councils again) and will probably find ways to defy the councils. I havent really figure this guy out tho. XD; I guess I"ll have to see... anyway, I'm getting sleepy and I'm writing too much. Sorry about that but this series is just so good that I couldn't stop myself. XD

2006-03-17, 10:46	Link #251
physics223 In the Tatami Galaxy ↓ Join Date: Feb 2006	Lir as a name is symbolic -- Lir is the deity of the sea in Celtic mythology. I'm okay with Lir and I'm okay with Ril. It's just that Ril doesn't really have any nominal significance, where as all the other characters allude to some renowned people. Ah. Thanks. I'll have to rewatch episode two, then. I've watched ep. one so many times ... but I haven't rewatched the other episodes as of now. __________________ anime\|otaku - hypotheses, analyses, and musings on The Tatami Galaxy \|\| The REAL first handheld console with color!

2006-03-17, 11:12	Link #252
Quajafrie Not here anymore! Join Date: Dec 2005 Age: 33	It can't be Real. It just doesn't make any sense... Because if it was Real the katakana should be リアル, right? Well, I have to say I love Ergo Proxy, judging only from the first episode (I've seen it three times). It's sophisticated, appealing, thrilling, intriguing, and I have to say I seem to like its world more than GITS or other sci-fi anime.

2006-03-17, 14:48	Link #254
wao OK. Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: The Fields of High Attus Age: 34	リル certainly can't pass for "Real" in the typical English pronounciation of it (because we all know about English and it's stupid variations... bough, trough, through). At the very least it should have an extended sound - リール. Since when did anyone pronounce "Real" like "Ril"? Seriously, that is. Or knowing that they're ultimately aiming for the US audience maybe they purposely put something that's bound to confuse us with the silly transliteration... aah. I don't know many other languages, but are there any other languages besides English where the pronounciation of リル is spelled as "Real"? No, ErgoProxyese is not allowed. __________________ Thanks for the fish

2006-03-17, 15:23	Link #255
TougeSil80 I have enough, I'm gone. Join Date: Dec 2005	Lir is good, but I would probably translate it to Liru or Lilu.

2006-03-18, 05:44	Link #256
physics223 In the Tatami Galaxy ↓ Join Date: Feb 2006	[i] phoneme? I certainly don't read 'Real' as 'Ril.' I don't think others do that as well. It's known as the long e sound ... but maybe you do in your countries ... depends on the taste of people I guess, but it is a universally accepted standard in pronouncing real with a long e sound rather than an i one ... You CAN always deviate, though. __________________ anime\|otaku - hypotheses, analyses, and musings on The Tatami Galaxy \|\| The REAL first handheld console with color!

2006-03-18, 09:13	Link #257
MrProphet The Commissar Vanishes Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Age: 41	OMG! Bishounen Vincent!!! 8))) Episde 4 is out and Ergo Proxy delivers once again. Some of the questions we've been asking here are somewhat hinted at. Spoiler: Pay attention at how Daedalus almost stroked Ril's lip. Is this where Monad got his "thing" for Ril?

2006-03-18, 15:58	Link #259
AisuruMirai 箱者 Join Date: Dec 2004	おそくなってすみません。 Spoiler for ep4: The most obviously notable thing about ep4 was that Vincent's eyes were opened the whole time. By the way, when リル is reading some info on Vincent, it says he has blue eyes, not green. Of course, Japanese people sometimes refer to green as blue (青い). Some info: From ep1: Spoiler for Contains full frontal nudity!!!: Initially, I had thought that this was a reference to the movie Blade Runner; I think that there is a scene w/ Roy Batty (the robot) posed like that when he & Deckard (Harrison Ford) are on the roof. (I saw the film about 2 years ago, so I'm not sure.) Then I realized that both the Blade Runner scene (assuming I'm not mistaken about its existence) & the Ergo Proxy scene are both likely references to the creation scene from Michelangelo's Sistene Chapel ceiling. I've noticed that some people are refering to him as Monad, but the one that cries w/ リル is Ergo Proxy. Monad Proxy is the one from Daedalus's lab. Character lineup from 1st preview: Note also that there are even more characters named after philosophers. Raul's lipstick entourage is called Kristeva (voiced by the amazing Kuwashima Houko); the two autoraves that stand behind Daedalus are Guattari & Deleuze. Daedalus was mentioned before as the father of Icarus, but more relevant here, I think, is that he also created the Labyrinth that encaged the Minotaur. (Note that ep3 is titled "mazecity" & that "labyrinthine" appears in the ep4 preview, lending support to the relevance of the Minotaur myth.) The Minotaur is, in a sense, Daedalus's own creation as well, b/c he made the contraption that allowed Minos's wife, Pasiphae, to have sex w/ a bull & conceive the Minotaur. Ergo Proxy's Daedalus might be seen as Proxy's creator, & Proxy might be seen as the child of two beings--not of beast & human, but of human & machine. (Just a possibility--there's no evidence that Proxy is part human.) Incidentally, Daedalus is also mentioned by Socrates (who is supposedly Daedalus's descendant) in Plato's Euthyphro. He is said to have made statues that move on their own & do not stay in one place. & speaking of statues... Someone might have said so already　(& even if no one did, I suspect most everyone knows already), but the Sages' chamber is based on the Cappella dei Medici, which houses the statue which led to the poem which led to the poem that Michelangelo wrote which appears at the start of ep1. The Sages are the statues Night, Day, Dawn, & Twilight. ("TASOGARE," which means "twilight," is the next episode's title (ep5).) では、アイスル未来 edit: Spoiler for An opinion only: Since serious anime programs tend in this direction, I am predicting that one or both of the Proxies are genetically related to リル & her grandfather in some way. Last edited by AisuruMirai; 2006-03-18 at 16:15.

2006-03-18, 17:07	Link #260
MrProphet The Commissar Vanishes Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Age: 41	I like the subtle imagery of this episode. AisuruMirai already mentioned several points, but there are also things like the Nutcracker doll in the old man's house (Nutcracker, of course, being the enchanted doll who turns out to be a prince), and Vincent's perfect flat where everything is perfectly doubled (a hint of his schizophrenia/double personality?). Of course, the intense neatness of the flat kinda hints at another of Vincent's ailments - obsessive-compulsive disorder. His stalking of Ril rather fits it. Vincent seems to possess a whole bouquet of psychiatric illnesses. 8)