2014-03-02, 13:50 | Link #41 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Age: 33
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Recently touring Yanukovich's palace became a popular trend, they should definitely tour Poroshenko's palace too http://www.from-ua.com/news/610f232a1b161.html
That's of course after the west sent its politicians to participate in street manifestations expressing support of the revolution movement.
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2014-03-02, 14:43 | Link #43 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Moscow, RU
Age: 35
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It's a pity I can't find this speech in english or at least with english subtitles (would be nice if someone else could've help):
This is an old speech, back from 2008, but it is as actual as ever
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2014-03-02, 15:03 | Link #44 |
Yurifag
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Kharkiv, Ukraine / Barcelona, Spain
Age: 36
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As Ukrainian I would say this map is utterly wrong. Pure Ukrainian is poltavian dialect(spoken in Poltava area between Kiev and Kharkov). "Ukrainian" used in Western Ukraine is hardly polluted by Hungarian and Polish so it's not much better than surzhik.
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2014-03-02, 15:05 | Link #46 | ||
Yurifag
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Kharkiv, Ukraine / Barcelona, Spain
Age: 36
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Quote:
Quote:
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Last edited by Nachtwandler; 2014-03-02 at 15:16. |
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2014-03-02, 15:23 | Link #47 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Age: 33
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Quote:
Russian army “occupied” part of Ukraine’s territory. Ukraine’s authorities want to respond militarily, but can’t, because they’re broke. And the country is quickly heading towards a financial default. Russia will not provide financial aid to Ukraine because it doesn’t recognise its government. IMF can’t provide financial aid to Ukraine, because Ukraine’s current authorities are formally illegitimate, which means there would be no legal obligation for Ukraine to pay back the debt to the IMF. Even if Ukraine’s current government somehow magically manages to mobilize the country and attack the Russians, Russia will use it as pretext to launch a full scale invasion, which would render Ukraine’s authorities arrested or dead within the first 24-48 hours of the invasion, given Russia’s military superiority over Ukraine’s rustbucket (and as of recent, disorganised) forces. NATO will not intervene militarily because no one has the balls to start WW3 to protect Ukraine’s dubious leadership. And Russia frankly doesn’t care about any sanctions since Europe is still reliant on Russia’s energy market and would only hurt itself if having taken any measures in protest against Russia’s actions. Total checkmate, courtesy of Vladimir Putin.
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Last edited by sbg711; 2014-03-02 at 17:24. |
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2014-03-02, 18:43 | Link #48 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
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Im no expert, but since when can a non head of state simply call on foreign military for "aid" legitimately?
also by ukrainian law can the president by himself (lets think that yanu is still the president) call on foreign troops by himself without the parliament? do bear in mind putin didnt just officially send troops but first got the vote of approval (well he did send soldiers beforehand unofficially). also please share any evidence of wide spread threat/attack on ethnic russians by the kiev protesters/pro EU people.
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2014-03-02, 19:26 | Link #49 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Age: 33
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To be clear. Yanukovich = still constitutionally legitimate president of Ukraine and commander-in-chief Turchynov = random guy
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2014-03-02, 19:29 | Link #50 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2010
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also my 2nd question is about yanukovich, does the ukrainiane president have the right to call on foreign troops by himself, without approval of parliament or other branches of govt?
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2014-03-02, 19:55 | Link #51 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Age: 33
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Ukraine, along with Russia and pretty much most other post-soviet states are CIS members. It was claimed that under CIS agreement, Ukraine's president reserves the right to call in military aid of another CIS member to help restore constitutional order. I don't know if that's true, and frankly, it would take a buttload of time to go through all the CIS documents to find that line, but seeing how carefully Russia is protecting Yanukovich (his plane was escorted to Russia by Russian fighter jets, and his security is currently ensured by the FSB), he has to have a valuable function, and this CIS thing is probably one of them.
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2014-03-02, 21:21 | Link #53 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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I mean, Putin pretended he didn't send Russian troops for a few days despite everyone seeing the troops with their own eyes. That kind of blatant lying is not to be commended, that kind of lying is just proof that Putin doesn't care about anyone's rules but his own. America at least is ashamed of its tyrannical nature, but Putin is rather proud that he can tell bareface lies to the whole world and we can't do anything about it.
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2014-03-02, 21:33 | Link #54 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
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2014-03-02, 21:54 | Link #55 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
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Russian side also accused the west about financial support of the protesters. I think this is very plausible. You have a huge group of people who has done nothing except protesting for months. They have practical needs as well. Where does all those money come from? Quote:
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2014-03-02, 22:10 | Link #56 |
Lumine Passio
Author
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Hanoi, Vietnam
Age: 18
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Hmm.. Let's see. Tusnia, Libya, Egypt, Yemen... Now Venezuela and Ukraina. If you count Asia too, then it's plus Thailand and Cambodia.
How many are US' allies, and how many aren't? I wonder why hasn't anyone make a research of the relationship between these "Revolutions" and the 2008 Economy Downfall. |
2014-03-02, 22:36 | Link #58 | |
Sensei, aishite imasu
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
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...I suppose it's hypothetically possible the USA was supporting the dissidents, but I think that dramatically overestimates the competence of the CIA, or their ability to predict that something like this would be so effective. Or how much they cared about the seemingly unexceptional anti-government protests (seriously, a few months ago, was ANYONE predicting this would topple the Ukrainian government?) Well technically they could respond militarily in spite of being broke. They do have soldiers, weapons and vehicles that could go rolling...keeping them supplied in an extended conflict would be problematic, but short term they COULD go in shooting...course a major reason the Ukrainians are likely holding back is because they know they can't win a standup fight against the Russians. I think everyone remembers what happened to Georgia when they decided to self-righteously tangle with the Russians.
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2014-03-02, 23:40 | Link #59 | |
M9000
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: SBC Gurokken
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The main thrust is about the situation with Abkhasia and South Ossetia, and the legal and geopolitical historical aspects that have led up to the conflict, explaining why it's more justified for those republics to gain independence than for Kosovo, mainly because they had no say in the self-determination process which led to the formation of Georgia after the break from the USSR, and because they were equal to and independent from Georgia before Stalin and Beria got their hands on them, forcing them into the Georgian SSR framework and causing forced resettlement of ethnicities (he also refers to some Economist article about the topic, which he claims to be quite good, but I haven't read it). You can draw some parallels to how the Crimea was reorganized into the Ukranian SSR by Khruschev, something that I'd wager most Russians today, whether they live in Crimea or in Russia, consider a grave mistake (what the Crimean Tatars and Ukranians think about this is another matter entirely, however). But even apart from that, present-day Ukraine is somewhat of an artificial construct, being an amalgamation of two completely opposite forces. The borders are not as distinct today, but generally, the western part, annexed from Poland in 1939, certainly bears no love towards Russia, while the eastern part is basically the fount of Russian culture, with Kiev being the historical center of Russian civilization. That these two parts have relatively peacefully coexisted in one country since the fall of the USSR without falling apart is already a miracle. Making matters even worse is that we have a situation of kleptocrats taking over for other kleptocrats in the Ukranian government - the old kelptocrats being at least democratically elected, though just how fair that election was is a matter of some debate, and the new kelptocrats just taking power in a coup (how much influence the US and EU had is also a matter of some debate, but they were certainly trying to involve themselves as much as possible, as seen from Nuland's actions) and now acting however they please, going so far as to try to legitimize their power in parliament at gunpoint (as you'd expect from forces supported by ultra right-wingers). And repealing the law on languages, I mean, really? That does not inspire confidence. Long story short, with or without Russian intervention, Ukraine is fucked right now. And on the verge of bankruptcy. The IMF can't save them, the needed reforms would cost too much and take too much time, the EU certainly doesn't want Ukraine in the EU bloc no matter how sugary the rhetoric gets (we've got enough on our plate, think Greece, Italy, Spain...), and the Russian loan is certainly off the table for now (and gas subsidies with it). I don't see how this is going to get resolved at all. But there are some things that he should not say. Namely, he should not spew hypocrisy by accusing Russia of behaving in exactly the same way that the USA behaves. Even a half-hearted appeal to international commitments or peace would be a better play than this bald-faced bullshit. |
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