(CR) Saki Zenkoku-hen (National Tournament Arc)

[panzerfan]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

I was a little bothered though at how fast this went in the anime. If I remember correctly, the Captain's segment was spread out over ten chapters, so each revelation -- Toyone's abilities, Kasumi's One Suit, Kyouko being Kyouko, and Saki the Demon Lord Cometh -- was a big thing.

The manga was paced at a monthly basis, and I really felt that Ritz left a mystery hanging for every month when it comes to how things would play out. In fact, all the Saki discussions that I've seen were wrecking peoples' brains over what Kasumi and Toyone were doing and how that Saki was completely ignored while Kyouko was left by her lonesome in this captains' match. This meant that what idle speculation about Saki's next move was rampant while everyone tore at Kyouko's 3P mahjong.

Every one following the manga were struck unannounced when Saki-san invalidate the senpu. I didn't realize that Kyouko's hand prior to that rinshan was a setup by Saki at all.

Anime filled in that blank about Saki, but it leaves a different question. Saki's moves are now shown, but you are now left with the nagging question of the motivations behind her stratagem. Kinematics sums it up really well to be honest.

[Flower]

I know folks are making good efforts in here, but lemme just leave a reminder in here about the no spoilers and hinting policy - just in case, okay?

[kiangs]

I have been waiting for this for a long tine and I was not disappointed.

Saki is the true definition of evil mahjong monster. She didn't even removed her socks, right? Oh my.

[Master_Yoma]

Finely Saki playing instead of just sitting there

[panzerfan]

All right, I just did this thing because 4chan saw flying Pringles in Saki.





Hehe.

[FlavoryFantasy]

This episode was all sorts of tanoshii.

...I never expected Saki herself to ever give off such a terrifyingly menacing presence. Bravo to the staff on portraying that.

[Triple_R]

Excellent episode!

I'll have more to write on it later on, but what I want to make an attempt at right now is getting the mahjong tactics of this episode. Because I get the impression that they're pretty complex in this episode. Honestly, some of it I don't think I quite grasp. But there is one thing I think I have, and I'm going to make a Poker analogy to see if I have it.


Kasumi's offensive power is that from hand-to-hand she'll draw all the tiles of a particular type. In Poker terms, she's like a player that can will herself to get nothing but hearts, or nothing but diamonds, or nothing but clubs, or nothing but spades. So, she specializes in flush victories (like the famous royal flush), and is quite dangerous in that regard.

Once her opponents caught on to her power, they countered with trying to create "flushes" of their own, and basically hope to beat her to the punch. So if they were getting the impression of Kasumi hoarding up all "clubs", each of them would go for one of the other suits.

Aahhh... but this is tremendously beneficial to Saki's power and playstyle. Saki is like a Poker player that specializes in three of a kinds or four of a kinds. If her competitors are just trying to hoard up their own
all-of-one-suit "flush" hands, then that makes it easier to get three/four of a kind across multiple suits because nobody else is going for that at all. And also because you're not likely to have two people competing for the same "suit", so there's a better chance of getting access to a little bit of every suit, better enabling you to make your three-of-a-kind and four-of-a-kind (your pons and kans, as it were).

Does my Poker analogy kind of work here? Does that sum up some of it at least? I'd really like to know if that's the case from a viewer here who's very knowledgeable about mahjong.


One thing I don't get, though, is how Toyone's power actually helped Saki in Saki's Ricchi-declared victory.

Anyway, it's really great to watch Saki kick some butt again. I was especially amused by Toyone having a downright orgasmic response to Saki's victories.

The visuals and BGM in this episode were truly glorious. One brief bit near the end even gave me flashes of Valvrave the Liberator! For a brief moment, Saki became like the L-Elf of mahjong to me, lol.

[tjalorak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Once her opponents caught on to her power, they countered with trying to create "flushes" of their own

If they think it's possible but not necessarily. Remember everyone shares the honor tiles so you can still win through yakuhai (if not a large win), pinfu, or tanyao. In general, Saki's tsumo aside, I didn't see Kyouko or Toyone going for honitsus.

So if they were getting the impression of Kasumi hoarding up all "clubs", each of them would go for one of the other suits.

They don't need to worry about club hoarding because they'll just never get any club cards to discard. So you can just assume that whatever you see in your starting hand will be the two suits you have available to you.

If her competitors are just trying to hoard up their own all-of-one-suit "flush" hands, then that makes it easier to get three/four of a kind across multiple suits because nobody else is going for that at all.

Three or four of a kind across multiple suits is sandoukou and it's useless to Saki because sandoukou requires a pon on the same number across all 3 suits. Everyone hoarding up a single suit would be problematic because with that type, you'll get a mix of pons and chis in other people's hands, which would mean there are more chances that each tile will have 1 or more in another hand, preventing Saki from getting her own.

Eisui makes it easier on Saki because she hovers up a suit and no one else will get that suit. That means everyone else shares 2 suits and the honors. With any given draw, Saki will draw from a smaller available pool of options meaning that the chance of her getting the right number from the right suit is higher and she'll complete her pons and kans faster (esp. since we can say she has some probability warping there to draw tiles that complete her pons and kans and she seems to know where they are in the wall anyway).

One thing I don't get, though, is how Toyone's power actually helped Saki in Saki's Ricchi-declared victory.

Toyone's power requires her to be in iishanten when someone declares riichi. Then her next draw will bring her to tenpai, allowing her to declare a chasing riichi. The first riichi declarer will then pick up a tile that can complete Toyone's hand. This generally will be a tile that the first riichi declarer cannot use and thus, she must discard it.

I can see one strategy around it already (albeit with low probability). If Toyone has multiple waits and the first riichi declarer has multiple waits, it may be possible that they'll *share* waits. In which case, there is a possibility that the draw the first riichi declarer gets will actually complete her own hand (as well as Toyone's) so she can declare tsumo on it. If you can guarantee that your wait will be the same as Toyone's, having her chase you will guarantee that you draw your needed tile (because Toyone needs it as well so her power will ensure the first draws it).

For Saki, if you look at Toyone's waits, first, a lot of her waits are already on the table (discarded) or hidden in other people's hands. You can chart it out but in essence, the only available draw that would still complete Toyone's hand is a 8 man. So, Saki accepts Toyone's senpu power, which guarantees that she draws a 8 man, then uses that 8 man to declare a kan for rinshan kaihou.

I was especially amused by Toyone having a downright orgasmic response to Saki's victories.

Toyone is a fan of good mahjong players and good mahjong play and can understand how well Saki played in winning through interaction with Kasumi's and her own power.

[Flower]

Pretty close on the poker analogy for a general idea, I think.

But the thing about how Toyone's power helped Saki win that hand is a tough one to answer.

Essentially Toyone's ability makes the player who declares the initial riichi she goes in pursuit of draw the tile that Toyone needs to win, right? But what if Saki could also use the same tile? Calling riichi was like a shortcut for Saki to get the tile she needed to complete her kan set and thus draw the winning tile from the dead wall and win by riinshan kaiho.

Edit: ninja'd by tjalorak. ^^

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

One thing I don't get, though, is how Toyone's power actually helped Saki in Saki's Ricchi-declared victory. .

Toyone forced her to draw her winning tile, but she used it for kan instead, thus allowing to draw something else ,

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Flower

Pretty close on the poker analogy for a general idea, I think.

I get that mahjong is more complicated than poker, so the analogy wouldn't be perfect, but I get the impression from tjalorak's response that it's close enough for a general idea. Certain particulars aren't exact, as tjalorak pointed out, but it's pretty much due to the inherent differences of the two games.


Now, as for what you, tjalorak, and Konakaga wrote about Toyone's power helping Saki... Let's see if I can clarify it a bit, even if just for myself.

Toyone's "Ricchi-chase" power forces her opponent to draw the tile that Toyone needs to win. Her opponent then typically discards that tile, playing directly into a winning hand for Toyone.

Ah... but what if Toyone's winning tile was also your winning tile? Then Toyone's power actually ends up feeding into your victory!

And that's what Saki did. She made it so that Toyone's winning tile would also be her winning tile. So the tile doesn't get discarded to Toyone for Toyone to use - Saki simply uses it herself, and wins.

Given the effects of Kasumi's power, people will be competing over a smaller pool of tiles, as tjalorak pointed out. It becomes almost like a 3-way game with one suit entirely removed (as per Kyouko's earlier observations). So you can better guesstimate what tiles your opponent wants, and if it's the same tile you want, you can use Toyone's power to get you that tile.

Is that sort of what's going on here?

Originally Posted by tjalorak

Toyone is a fan of good mahjong players and good mahjong play and can understand how well Saki played in winning through interaction with Kasumi's and her own power.

I get that - I've noticed that Toyone has a tendency to fangirl a bit over every mahjong player that interests her or impresses - But she took it to a much higher level with Saki. So much so that it's pretty amusing, imo.

[tjalorak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It becomes almost like a 3-way game with one suit entirely removed (as per Kyouko's earlier observations). So you can better guesstimate what tiles your opponent wants, and if it's the same tile you want, you can use that against Toyone and her power.

Is that sort of what's going on here?

Players could, yes. Kyouko's reading and play is based off that concept. But Saki's probably reading the nebulous 'flow' rather than the discards given her tendencies. I imagine she's just hijacking Toyone's flow - accepting its power as Toshi says - and allowing it to blow the tile she needs toward her since she seems to know where the tiles that would complete her kan are (Maho match and 1st hanchan's East 1).

[Flower]

Originally Posted by tjalorak

Players could, yes. Kyouko's reading and play is based off that concept. But Saki's probably reading the nebulous 'flow' rather than the discards given her tendencies. I imagine she's just hijacking Toyone's flow - accepting its power as Toshi says - and allowing it to blow the tile she needs toward her since she seems to know where the tiles that would complete her kan are (Maho match and 1st hanchan's East 1).

Yes to everything said here.

And also remember Saki is indeed reading things at a ridiculously deep level - what she's doing here is seriously inhuman. There is a reason why everyone else at the table and watching are amazed, shaking in their boots and / or delighted.

[panzerfan]

Originally Posted by Flower

Yes to everything said here.

And also remember Saki is indeed reading things at a ridiculously deep level - what she's doing here is seriously inhuman. There is a reason why everyone else at the table and watching are amazed, shaking in their boots and / or delighted.

Saki is scary to those that can understand her. Her rinshan is just the surface. One thing that truly sticks out when it comes to Saki is how that she is still so unknowable even if we've known her since 2006 (manga)/2009 (anime)

The more you know about Saki, the more terrifying she becomes. Hisa was already quivering with exhilaration from the first day of meeting her, while Nodoka was rendered utterly stupefied at her point manipulation. Nanpo Kazue immediately classified her as a national class monster, while Fujita and Toshi surmised that Saki can conquer other monsters head-on.

Few protagonist are like that. I cannot think of sports protagonist that are this unfathomable as her.

[tjalorak]

Speaking of delighted people, have people noticed that Koromo (and Hajime, although she doesn't quite seem, ah, delighted by Saki's play here) are now in the audience at the convention center viewing room? So, IIRC, over the course of the day, Ryuumonbuchi has watched from their hotel room (and Koromo even woke up early to watch!), then some eatery place, and now, some of them at least are at the convention center.

No real significance - just cute and indicative of the unique friendships that have formed between the other Nagano finalist teams and Kiyosumi.

[teja208]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Toyone's "Ricchi-chase" power forces her opponent to draw the tile that Toyone needs to win. Her opponent then typically discards that tile, playing directly into a winning hand for Toyone.

Ah... but what if Toyone's winning tile was also your winning tile? Then Toyone's power actually ends up feeding into your victory!

And that's what Saki did. She made it so that Toyone's winning tile would also be her winning tile. So the tile doesn't get discarded to Toyone for Toyone to use - Saki simply uses it herself, and wins.

I'm not very knowledgable about mahjong, but from what I can understand in Saki's case, it's not exactly her winning tile, but a tile to form a quad so she can kan.

Saki has a thing with sequence tiles, meaning when she got 3 tile of the same she knows where the forth one is. She use that knowledge to match her kan tile with Toyone's winning tile.

Saki can also sense what tiles are in the dead wall so she can form her hand in way that would enable her to get Rinshan Kaihou or not. Good thing Kasumi's one suit magnetism can't reach the dead wall.

Kasumi's one suit ability comes with a disadvantage that it allows opponents to form hands faster with only two suits and honers, so it's a battle of speed. In addition, the ability also affects certain type of hex in a different way. Monsters with powers based on probability drawing such as Saki's likelihood of getting Rinshan gets enhanced, while Monsters with powers that relies on actions of her opponents' discard such as Toyone richi chase and making 4 calls for single tile wait get restricted.

[Proto]

Few protagonist are like that. I cannot think of sports protagonist that are this unfathomable as her.

It's been done before, and it's a dangerous road before they become completely unlikable (Prince of Tennis)

[teja208]

Originally Posted by Proto

It's been done before, and it's a dangerous road before they become completely unlikable (Prince of Tennis)

I don't see any problem with that as long as protagonist's action makes sense based on what we know about them without any asspull.

[panzerfan]

Originally Posted by Proto

It's been done before, and it's a dangerous road before they become completely unlikable (Prince of Tennis)

Well... Ryoma at least is completely confident and has an air of arrogance, whereas Saki is downright opposite in personality. I actually think that Ryoma's taunting is far less demeaning than what Saki does to people.

(Ryoma would absolutely loathe Saki come to think of it, as someone so cocksure and prideful would be absolutely infuriated if he was played like a puppet by Saki. Kind of like Reinhard being played like a harp by Yang Wenli...)

[fukarming]

I think this episode is what makes Saki cool: She basically KO the other 3 with no dispute. The other 3 tried their very best, but Saki is still heads and shoulders above them.

In contrast, while Shizuno KO Awai in Achiga, Shizuno and Awai never have an answer for Mairu/Himeko. Mairu/Himeko's power is never challenged. They lose simply because their teammates are just too weak.

It makes me want to see Saki vs Himeko - if Saki had to win, will she simply win by ronning lots of points when Himeko is not ronning, or even more awesome: break the unbreakable control of Mairu/Himeko combo.

Too bad this is one matchup we won't see.........