2014-04-07, 15:56 | Link #34281 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Technically considering the Meta doesn't really exist but it's probably part of someone's fantasy is possible that the characters are built up with certain knowleges while missing certain others.
MetaBattler is created with the knowledge Ushiromiya Battler had in 1986, a time in which it's assumed he had no idea his mother wasn't Asumu. However whoever created the Meta (let's assume is Tohya) also know Battler is Kyrie's son and that Sakutarou isn't handmade. This person might have decided that MetaBeatrice might have been aware of the truth behind Battler's birth because... let's say Rudolf bribed the hospital doctor by using Kinzo's money and name and therefore it was possible Beatrice was informed by Genji as Ange speculated... or maybe Rudolf tattled the truth out to Krauss or Kinzo when he went to talk with them about how Asumu died and Battler left him and was overheard. In short he deemed possible for Beatrice to know this truth. However Beatrice... (and her human vessel) lives secluded on Rokkenjima and she was feed false informations from Maria so, who created MetaBeatrice assumed Beatrice couldn't know this truth about Sakutarou. Since MetaBeatrice and MetaBattler aren't RealBattler and RealBeatrice the knowledge of both can be speculated by who created them... or it can match the real knowledge they had in 1986 which is of course less powerfull than the knowledge of truth Ange has in 1998. Quote:
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2014-04-08, 06:50 | Link #34282 | ||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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If Genji ever decided to tell everything he knows about the family to the press, or even better, blackmail them to keep his mouth shut, he could make a pretty decent living.... Yeah, you're right, turns out she does choke. But does that annule the rest of the phrase she managed to say or not? It really is unclear.
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2014-04-08, 08:12 | Link #34283 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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But I suppose "Genji got in on the baby swap shenanigans" is easier to swallow than "Yasu just coincidentally happened to be digging into information on the parents and somehow discovered evidence of the baby swap" or something. Then again, if it's in ep4 I suppose Yasu didn't really have to know it at all; somebody at the hospital could've told a TV program about it after the incident for money or whatever. It doesn't seem like something that would've been especially relevant to the weekend to anyone but Rudolf, who was about to tell Kyrie and Battler anyway. And if Battler were told, it would allow Tohya to (potentially) know it.
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2014-04-08, 09:19 | Link #34284 | |
Guitar Man
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
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Of course it annules. It's one incomplete phrase. Even if not, it's a loose phrase that can mean anything. That something was made by Rosa, and is unique in the world. Not necessarily Sakutaro. Unless she is faking the choking, but that would only make things contradict with ep8 And Battler would be Asumu's son The original goes (if my memory does not fail): ore wa (I) asumu kara (from asumu) umare- (was bo-) *choke*
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2014-04-08, 09:28 | Link #34285 | |
Guitar Man
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
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2014-04-08, 11:41 | Link #34286 | ||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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On that note, I really like the tender way Rudolf seems to think of Asumu in the manga (that's actually the first time we're given any insight on their relationsip btw). Kyrie's description of her actually gives the impression of a very sneaky and annoying woman but well, how partial could Kyrie be? For example, Battler's brief description of her in EP4 makes her seem quite nice. I'd really like to see how she would behave in one of the past family conferences and how she'd fit in... and actually who she was at all. She's kinda important, especially because she cultivates the main character's personality and affects his behavior so much, but she's never actually given credit for it. Also, her depiction in the manga looks an awful lot like Beatrice.... which I'm not sure what is supposed to say about Battler.
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2014-04-08, 12:24 | Link #34287 |
Guitar Man
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brazil
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My guess is that Rudolf was not old enough at the time, or at least didn't have money of his own to be throwing around, so he had to rely on Kinzo's help (which automatically means Genji will know everything). If Kinzo was already going too mad at the time, then I guess Genji would 'kind of' assume Kinzo's place and deal with the problem himself, to protect the family name, or something.
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2014-04-08, 12:42 | Link #34288 |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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I personally like to think that Rudolf told Kinzo over beer or something:
"Hahahaha, that's my boy!!! Seriously, I just had an incest daughter/son with my bastard child which I hid in a mansion on this very island and stuff, but swapping babies, ahahaha, that takes the cake!!!" "You had a what?" "Nothing..." And that's how the secret leaked....
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2014-04-08, 17:37 | Link #34289 | ||
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I don't think Genji would need to know it but it can be that: - Rudolf told Kinzo or Krauss or both the truth when he married Kyrie and one of them ended up tattling it out to Genji in a 'oh Rudolf always gets himself in troubles but I would have never thought he would go so far as to swap his children' fashion. - Actually, like Rosa, Rudolf needed a confidant and picked up Genji because who's better at listening you than a furniture? It can be Genji was subconsciously considered by the siblings much more of a father figure than Kinzo himself so when they had a trouble they were used to go to Genji and he would solve it or, at least, listen to them. At the same time though, they thought of him as inferior because he's a servant so they never quite managed a loving bond but at least they trusted him blindly enough to tell him their secrets. Though it's also possible that it was Yasu who eavesdropped a converstaion between the adults when she heard Battler's name and ended up discovering the truth on Battler's birth. But I tend to go to what the manga said. Genji ended up on knowing and Beatrice/Yasu might have asked him for more information about Battler and he might have ended up telling her. Interesting enough I'd like to know Genji's position in Yasu's love affairs. I mean, the ones she's crushing after are her cousins, but also her nephews/niece. While Japan has no problems accepting love between cousins love between aunt/uncle and nephew/niece is considered incest in the same way as father/daughter and we know although Genji didn't comment he didn't approve. It'll be interesting if actually Battler wrote Shannon a letter or even more than one JUST AFTER he left the family (and not years later like he did for his cousins) and Genji had the letter be hidden/destroyed in hope this will keep Shannon and Battler apart... only to find out George would pursue her. LOL, maybe he was the one suggesting Eva to marry off George to another girl so that Kinzo will find him a better heir or something in hope to keep George as well away from Shannon... and when this didn't work he decided to tattle out the full truth about her body and what her father did to her. I mean... she didn't really need to know she was an incest baby and that the relation between her mother and her father might have been not consensual... it could have been enough to tell her that Kinzo wanted to apologize because he failed to protect Beatrice and legalize her position as his second wife or something. Unless it was Kinzo who got into details she would have had no ways to find the truth out hadn't Genji, Kumasawa or Nanjo told her. Same goes for the truth about how Kinzo got the gold. They could have handed her Ep 7 version instead than the brutal truth. However Genji told her and caused her to end up feeling a strong disgust for Kinzo and his blood, maybe in hope to push her to act differently and stay away from the people that were related to her by blood. Not that it worked. |
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2014-04-09, 01:52 | Link #34290 | |
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Ruins of the Golden Land
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In all seriousness though, how much of this did Genji actually know? If my memory doesn't fail me, I don't recall anything in the narrative suggesting Genji knew about it, or if he did, he didn't actually have any say whatsoever. I mean, he was okay about Kinzo raping his daughter and he willingly helped out with a plan to murder the entire family and blow the island up without any protests, so I trust nephew incest would be something he'd take quite naturally. Seriously though, evil-behind-the-scenes-mastermind Genji! I love this idea! Just imagine what new ways that would create to play with Ronove's part....
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2014-04-09, 14:18 | Link #34291 |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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In some ways, we can say that Genji's a completely boring walking plot device. In another way, we can say that he's a goldmine of untapped potential. He could be the best evil mastermind to walk the island.
Genji's probably really chill about things like baby swapping. Hell, he's probably relieved that none of Kinzo's children went in for imprisoning and molesting their children on an island. Kinzo gave his own kid with a mistress to be raised by Krauss and Natsuhi in circumstances where it would have been awkward if the truth was revealed. Rudolf gives his child with a mistress to his wife in circumstances where the truth would have been awkward. Only thing is that Asumu was never told about it... I do wonder what time Grandmother Ushiromiya died at. She was alive at the time when Rosa ran into the forest and met Beatrice 2. Battler describes her as long dead, and my impression is that she was still alive at some point during Battler's childhood, but I can't be certain of that. In any case, it seems likely that she was still around at the time when Natsuhi was given the baby to raise. It's been stated that she had an inferiority complex in reaction to her belief that Kinzo was cheating on her, and the lines about "Anyway, ...there's a good chance that this love was mutual, unlike with Mother" would seem to imply that she did love Kinzo. So it's rather an omission that we never got to see her reaction to Natsuhi being given a child to raise by Kinzo, unless she was away from home at the time. I suppose it would have complicated the story about Natsuhi and the baby if somebody else with issues about the adoption was present. There's no way she wouldn't have suspected that her own descendents were being bypassed by Kinzo, having the child of a mistress of Kinzo placed foremost in the rankings of the family. In fact, case closed, Grandmother Ushiromiya had the best motive for throwing baby Yasu off a cliff. It's just a question of how she did it. |
2014-04-09, 16:31 | Link #34292 | ||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Also, if George could notice the chemistry in Battler and Shannon I guess so could Kumasawa (who's prone to eavesdropping) and Genji and although they could have found it cute in the beginning they might have reconsidered when they realized the possible implications to it. Also, Genji purposely wanted Shannon to be there for Kinzo. It's said she had to file some documents to drop her job she might have asked Genji info about what to do before she learnt Battler weren't to come back... and he might have figured out her intentions or prodded her about it and learnt about them. So, in order to keep her there for Kinzo and to stop her from committing incest and well, finding herself in troubles when she would discover the truth about herself, he might have decided that if a letter from Battler were to arrive he would dispose of it. As Shannon generally doesn't receive mails it would stand out if she were to suddently receive a letter. If Battler wrote her more than one letter and never received an answer he would have no reasons to write her 3 years after when he wrote to the cousins thinking she didn't reply previously because either she had left on her own or just doesn't want to talk to him. Ergo no letter for Shannon. Well, Genji wasn't okay with Kinzo raping his daughter... he just didn't know how to say 'no' to Kinzo. Genji is more or less always supporting Kinzo even when Kinzo is doing messed up things. It's clear Kinzo raised his children poorly but when he beats up Krauss in front of Eva and then feel sick and asks Genji what did he do wrong to have such horrible kids Genji tells him he's blameless. He also tells him, after he dies, he surely ahve been forgiven. Genji is, toward Kinzo, the sort of mom that know his kid is messing up but... well, he's her kid and she doesn't have the heart to scold him. I think Genji had much more potential but Umineko ended up dropping him somehow. Even Ep 7 doesn't really talk much about Genji. He's mostly always covering Kinzo's back. Honestly I'm not surprised there's who speculated Genji suffered of unrequired love for Kinzo... who instead was obsessed with Beatrice. He seems happy when he can see Kinzo in Battler and Ronove even tried hitting on Battler. Honestly I've the feeling that Asumu figured out or was told about it but decided to continue with the pretense Battler was her child or try to. Rudolf claims she wasn't as forgiving as she looked and implied she could have a bad temper. He also seems to feel guilty about her dead, which makes me wonder how exactly Asumu died as it seems a pretty sudden death since Kyrie was planning to kill her when... Asumu died on her own. If she was suffering of a terminal illness I guess Kyrie would have just patiently waited instead of buying a knife. Quote:
Actually maybe it would be better to say there are part of the plot Umineko completely neglected. We've no idea how Battler spent those 6 years apart for the fact he was... busy. We're told nothing about his grandparents apart that they were furious with Rudolf. We know nothing of Yasu's school life (did she have real friends? was she a good student? did she went to high school or dropped out?). Prior to the manga we weren't told much about the 6 years she spent waiting for Battler and we were told even less of her 2 last years. And then we've caracters like Amakusa or Ikuko whose background is pretty weak. Maybe instead than keeping on adding characters Umineko would have done well to flesh out the ones it already had. |
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2014-04-10, 06:53 | Link #34293 | |
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But I'd say the problem is, that the whole story is told and "meta-"written from a very personal perspective and is to reflect the author's opinion on events within and sorrounding Rokkenjima in the past as much as the future (in-universe). Neither Battler nor Yasu actually knew much of Kinzo's wife, they probably never met Maria's father apart from 2 or 3 times when he was begging for money, Nanjo pretty much keeps his private life apart from the Rokkenjima events...Asumu is pretty much the only character from the past that could have received more development. And just to add because there seems to be a misunderstanding: Yes, George had an Omiai...he probably had a lot of Omiais if Eva was that insistent on making him marry...but that does not mean that he was promised or anything. An Omiai is more or less informal and more like a strange mixture between a "date set-up" and an interview. |
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2014-04-10, 16:30 | Link #34294 | |||
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On an interesting side note I'm re-reading Ep 1 and in it Eva says: Quote:
I've been wondering if the setting from Ep 1 is actually very, very close to Ep 5 and she didn't believe Rudolf and Co were really dead but only playing dead and that Krauss had been replaced by a fake body and was being held captive. In fact most of the reasoning she does with Battler seems to drop out of nowhere with her unable to explain why she thought so, as if she merely wanted to have Battler ponder on this and that. Eva also seems very busy in trying to pin the blame on Natsuhi and seems to act as if she were suspecting Kinzo is death and we know the manga confirmed it was Yasu who told the adults Kinzo was death so... can it be that she's taking part to all this with the same mindsetting of Ep 5? Just believing this is all a plan to have Natsuhi confess? |
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2014-04-10, 18:40 | Link #34295 |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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The spoilers for EP 7 manga new chapter are out and show the solutions to Ep 1 of Umineko.
They confirm Shannon wasn't in the storehouse, that the chain lock of Eva and Hideyoshi room wasn't actually closed, that Kinzo was already dead, that Kanon faked being hurt and that Beatrice, before killing Genji, Nanjo and Kumasawa, entered using the door like any normal person. The text probably adds some more details but I can't really read it. Who's interested can find them here. Oh, there's also a colour pic of Will that's really cool! We're also told that Will's black sword is sort of on his back (well he retrieves it from there but the sword appears magically) while Clair's sword is her book. There's also more talking about Yasu, who's shown using guns and whose form is the one of a faceless long blonde haired girl. |
2014-04-10, 21:48 | Link #34296 |
Eaten by goats
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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Thanks for the info, JJ!
It's good to have the solutions for ep 1 confirmed, but at the same time it's a little sad (nostalgic-sad?). Lots of people had already worked out what the solutions must be. Even Ryukishi with his reluctance to tell all is giving us the solutions now. Well, it was inevitable. It looks as if Yasu's hair is down to mid-back level. So, not as long as Beatrice's, but quite a bit longer than Shannon's and Kanon's. I wonder what the situation really was with Yasu's hair, then? The Beato-hair was shown to be a wig, if things are being consistent. So there's no real point in having mid-back level hair, and Yasu's real hair won't have been blonde anyway. Presumably her normal hair is her Shannon hair and her Kanon hair is either a marvel of quick-change hair styling or another wig. Could be that the blonde mid-back level hair was just a stylistic thing to separate Yasu from Beato/Kanon/Shannon, maybe making her look more like Lion. It does look the most like Lion's hair style. |
2014-04-11, 05:27 | Link #34297 | |
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2014-04-11, 06:17 | Link #34298 |
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The same as always, me translating the few panels that we get...though at least I can get my hands on the magazine that EP7 runs in...so hopefully more to come during this week and more on EP8 when I'm back in Japan at the start of May.
Spoiler for EP7 EP1 solution manga:
At least now the EP7 manga is also going into a little bit more fine-tuning, as did the EP8 manga from the very beginning. Considering how they both portray Yasu's true form as quite different, I suppose Ryukishi advised to keep the form of the EP7 culprit in check with the narrative...as to not directly reveal it in a "THIS IS SHKANNON" kind of way. Even in EP8 they are still making it clear that, while they use the Shannon hairstyle (but Beato dress), "that person", Shannon, Kanon, and Beato are quite distinct entities in their own rights. So far no name was ever given...even Erika speaks of Kanon and "X", "that person", "the true culprit". And I am trying to push myself (with my very...veeeeeryyyyy limited travel-laptop) through translating a bit more of EP8 for people interested in it. It really brings some more neat points to light if you really concentrate on the text...like this here: Spoiler for EP8 manga chapter16:
I don't remember if and how the game framed that particular scene, but I do like how much the manga also uses visual storytelling to impart elements of the story. Like how it becomes clear that, while the content of the diary is the truth, it is also something that Eva clearly is not happy about and likely painted by her emotions of that day. Last edited by haguruma; 2014-04-11 at 12:26. |
2014-04-11, 13:53 | Link #34299 | |||||
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So I see no harm in finally seeing confirmed what I though... as well as finally giving an answer to who couldn't find one. LOL, I've some solutions I'm not confident myself so I'll be happy to have an official answer. Quote:
In her mind though her true self is the one with long yet not as long as Beatrice hair, while her own version with short hair is "Shannon"... although Shannon is also the look she shows to the world so technically her 'real' self has short hair. Quote:
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2014-04-11, 16:14 | Link #34300 | ||
Detective, Witch, Pirate.
Join Date: Jan 2012
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Though Ryukishi's reluctance is sort of justificed because, yeah, the people who didn't think and just waited around for the answer to show up will also be rewarded which will be unfair to those who did think... but I think not letting them check if their thinking did bear fruit in the end is crueler. Quote:
As far as I recall, the dialogues are exactly the same in the Visual Novel, but the illustrations do highlight the characters' emotional state (troll loli-Ange!!!!!). I really love how Battler's expression is 'oh no!' and Eva brings her hands to her mouth as soon as she realizes what is happening. You..... should.... not have said that!!!!!!! Actually, Bernkastel's hair color isn't really that outrageous because she's a meta 100% fictional character. I say, for an "anime", Umineko's hair choices seem to be surprisingly realistic.
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