To Aru Majutsu no Index LN - New Testament Volume 10 Discussion / Poll

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by the one above all

If all the beings we were introduced in the epilogue are gods then doesn't that mean that Fiamma technically surpassed them when he became The One Superior to God during WWIII? Or is it possible that they aren't your traditional magic gods so they don't work under those principles?

The way I choose to understand it, when Fiamma reached that state, he gained full mastery over the realm of Christian magic, as shown by the fact that he could force the phase of Heaven to replace the sky of the material world and gained enough power to reproduce all the miracles in the Bible. So, in a magical sense, he was in a position above god because he had essentially attained all of the powers that magicians had calculated god would have. However, he was still very much inferior to actual Magic Gods, who can create phases at will when Fiamma could only play around with one.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by dazo

yes, the layer of magic god, is created by them.. so.. more powerful beings can exist .



but gemstone can obtain the power to become magic gods (rituals)? they have natural powers , i mean the raw power ....but to use properly these unknown power to become superior beings...
... i guess , they would exceed the magic god level.



fiamma was still human , he never broke his shell to become something else...

whether he successfully become the one above god is actually isn't that important. Aleister also said it, he constrained himself limited to Christianity so his magic also limited to Chritianity, Othinus in order to control her power have reach out to holism esper and science in general to reach where magic cannot reach alone. Let's say that he success in become the one above god, he still become a being that power is possible to imagine by human, which Thor also said that it's still far from a magic god.

[dazo]

Originally Posted by Doom_Paperclip
he was in a position above god because he had essentially attained all of the powers that magicians had calculated god would have. However, he was still very much inferior to actual Magic Gods, who can create phases at will when Fiamma could only play around with one.

how magicians can fully calculate the power of a god?
and how a human can fully control the realm of Christian magic.... if he can make the miracles of the bible, but not change the phases of the world... i think he is a failure, He should end broken down due to obtain too much power in a simple body.

Originally Posted by dragon1412
whether he successfully become the one above god is actually isn't that important. Aleister also said it, he constrained himself limited to Christianity so his magic also limited to Chritianity, Othinus in order to control her power have reach out to holism esper and science in general to reach where magic cannot reach alone. Let's say that he success in become the one above god, he still become a being that power is possible to imagine by human, which Thor also said that it's still far from a magic god.

but othinus as a magic god, is based in Norse mythology, can she use the magic from other mythology? and all about fiamma failing isn't about the uses of aeon?

all the idea of Holistic esper, is just another method to create the lance, she can make one, without requiring all that

[Doom_Paperclip]

Originally Posted by dazo

how magicians can fully calculate the power of a god?

The same way they calculated the power of Cthulhu to write the Necronomicon? Really, the process has never been exaplained, but I assume a bunch of Magicians sat down with a copy of the Bible, extracted all of the miracles contained within, did a lot of math, looked up star charts and ley lines ect... and came up with a solid theory of how much magical power you would need to surpass the Christian God in a magical sense.

Originally Posted by dazo

and how a human can fully control the realm of Christian magic.... if he can make the miracles of the bible, but not change the phases of the world... i think he is a failure, He should end broken down due to obtain too much power in a simple body.

That's why he needed the arm with IB in it. Fiamma alone wouldn't have been able to handle 100% of the Holy Right. Touma's right arm was special enough to channel that much power.

Also, keep in mind that TAMNI takes as many liberties with religion as it does with science. A lot of the stuff that goes on in the Light Novels is outright heresy, controlling and fighting one of the Archangels and the Church even allowing Magic in the first place being big offenders.

Originally Posted by dazo

but othinus as a magic god, is based in Norse mythology, can she use the magic from other mythology? and all about fiamma failing isn't about the uses of aeon?

She can do whatever she wants. A Magic God is beyond the limitations of normal Magicians. Just because she placed herself in Norse Mythology doesn't mean she is restricted by it. That should be clear due to all the stuff Othinus did in NT9. For instance, she was able to fully resurrect the dead. Kanzaki claimed in the Norse SS that you cannot resurrect or revive dead or dying people through Norse Mythology because it is a religion that affirms death, but Othinus walked all over that.

And Fiamma's failure truly was due to Aeons. If he had been able to format his plan correctly, he could have become like Aleister, possibly reaching or exceeding Magic God levels. He never had the chance, though, because Aleister is keeping a tight grip on all that knowledge.

[dazo]

The same way they calculated the power of Cthulhu to write the Necronomicon? Really, the process has never been exaplained, but I assume a bunch of Magicians sat down with a copy of the Bible, extracted all of the miracles contained within, did a lot of math, looked up star charts and ley lines ect... and came up with a solid theory of how much magical power you would need to surpass the Christian God in a magical sense.

that makes sense..

That's why he needed the arm with IB in it. Fiamma alone wouldn't have been able to handle 100% of the Holy Right. Touma's right arm was special enough to channel that much power.

even if ib can adjust the input power and output, i still think that is too much power, but who knows

She can do whatever she wants. A Magic God is beyond the limitations of normal Magicians. Just because she placed herself in Norse Mythology doesn't mean she is restricted by it. That should be clear due to all the stuff Othinus did in NT9. For instance, she was able to fully resurrect the dead. Kanzaki claimed in the Norse SS that you cannot resurrect or revive dead or dying people through Norse Mythology because it is a religion that affirms death, but Othinus walked all over that.

you get a cookie, i forgot about the "religion that affirms death "and the einherjar thing .... time to read again norse ss

again , the concept of magic god is so broken

[catavecino]

i have read almost 2/3 of this thread and can't find the answer i'm looking for

Spoiler for question/Epilogue:

is that misaki in the dark room beyond destruction?

thanks in advance

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by dazo

that makes sense..



even if ib can adjust the input power and output, i still think that is too much power, but who knows




you get a cookie, i forgot about the "religion that affirms death "and the einherjar thing .... time to read again norse ss

again , the concept of magic god is so broken

seeing as she need to gouge her own eye and hang her self, i think it's quite an equal trade.

[dazo]

Originally Posted by catavecino

i have read almost 2/3 of this thread and can't find the answer i'm looking for

Spoiler for question/Epilogue:

is that misaki in the dark room beyond destruction?

thanks in advance

no, the one in the god phase is a god... they just have similar ways of talking ☆

Originally Posted by dragon1412
seeing as she need to gouge her own eye and hang her self, i think it's quite an equal trade.

one eye and a slowly dead to gain almost absolute power....is a bargain

[ACertainStark]

your face when Misaki was secretly a god all along.

[dazo]

Originally Posted by ACertainStark

your face when Misaki was secretly a god all along.

well , then all the drama in the kagaku manga is just a lie...
.... why can I see it happening

[catavecino]

Originally Posted by dazo

no, the one in the god phase is a god... they just have similar ways of talking ☆



one eye and a slowly dead to gain almost absolute power....is a bargain

THANKS a lot that really had given me a headache

[catavecino]

Originally Posted by ACertainStark

your face when Misaki was secretly a god all along.

AAAAAND now it is back

[ACertainStark]

^Was just kidding, don't worry.

Originally Posted by dazo

well , then all the drama in the kagaku manga is just a lie...
.... why can I see it happening

Touma is a true master conquered 2 gods.

[catavecino]

Originally Posted by ACertainStark

^Was just kidding, don't worry.



Touma is a true master conquered 2 gods.

so he now needs a demon (lessar does not count)
and if the demon has a voluptuous figure i well...

[The One Above God]

If Gods are appearing soon, then why not Succubi?

[sasoras]

Originally Posted by allfictions

Dude, he specifically said "I think God basically a system that created by human to justify their action in justice or something. (A totally atheist view)", which indicate that those are his personal beliefs, and had no reference to ToAru. That part of his comment was not related to the discussion at hand. You could always ask him, but I'm pretty sure that's how other people would read it too.

Well the reason i mentioned context is because this is the to aru verse discussions and gods are being mentioned. Human system to create gods per say is an atheist view in a certain sense, but can also be described as an anthropological view as well, but the layman will think atheistic view will be the usual thing that comes up.

Keep in mind this is a view being applied to the to aru verse gods, the key of the context being it had never deviated from "to aru" during the course of his entire post.

Even if that was his view it was still applied towards the fantasy setting correctly, rather then deviating and making pot shots at the religious of real life.

I say this, because this was how i interpreted it, which was different from how you did. I could of course be wrong and that he was truly baiting the devoutly religious people, but from the context provided i theorize otherwise.

Originally Posted by allfictions

And "being devoutly religious" (you could simply say "religious" you know? I feel like the adjective qualifies me as a fundie seeing it as an attack on his religion or something) has nothing to do with it, it's simply that, by experience, religious debates on the Internet rarely ends well.

Well indeed i could simply say religious, but religious people aren't exactly similar too each other in the depth of the belief, some would shrug off comments or be casual about it, while some will defend their faith. A religious person by itself is fairly neutral description on how deep hey would react, from my point of view i described you as devout.It merely means you have a deeper feeling for faith. Which once again form how i see it.

Relax i have never thought you as a fundie since, it boggles the mind for a fundie to even read to aru let alone post on the forums for it.

As for the religious debate once again within the context i don't see it as very dangerous. The content of to aru alone should filter out some of the more radical or zealot members of society.

Of course this is merely form my perspective, as i do not know the intentions of the original poster, so i could always be wrong.

But the impact imo is relatively low, and that by itself shouldn't be dangerous. Of course maybe i have a bias on what i think the average to aru reader is like.

[dniv]

I've been working on my review and I just noticed something fantastic!

In the Prologue Misaka gets a text when she notes that the communications should have been down... but for some reason that wasn't true for ACADEMY CITY. The level fives all got the message at once... even Misaka who wasn't in the city...

...

...

Moreover, Kamijou Touya was talking to Lindy Blueshake in America, Silicon Valley in NT 8... and Lindy said she noticed that someone was exacerbating trouble all around the world in order to try to make people have CHAOS to prepare for a war.

And Touya mentioned the same thing Misaka Tabikage mentioned about the market with certain materials going out of whack around different parts of the world, as if someone were trying to profit immensely off of the stock market fluctuations, and other CHAOS going on around the entire world.

In fact, Touma notes in NT 10 that in NT 9 in one of the worlds that he saw AC lost and all of its inhabitants were starving... and Touma doesn't understand what they are doing when they hack the US military secret messages (foreshadowed in NT 8 by Lindy mentioning she could use her control over Silicon Valley, google, and various other technological services to let Kamijou Touya use a direct line between the US president and the prime minister of Japan, to have her allow Touya to call Kamijou Shiina...), and why they are attacking the US forces as well.

BUT, NT 10 epilogue tells us that both Aleister and the real GREMLIN are depending on the strength of the world to help overcome the CHAOS outside... but that would likely mean neither of them are planning/causing this chaos, and that AC likely isn't doing it either, unless Kiharas are doing it somehow...

But what this does suggest is one of three possibilities:

1. AC wants more war soon.

2. Laura wants more war soon.

3. Some other organization beyond both GREMLIN and Aleister is trying to cause CHAOS/misfortune/whatever in the world, that both of them are trying to stop..............

This seems rather interesting to me. I really need to re-read NT 8 again and other things before I finish reviewing this...

Also, I noticed that Silvia or Brunhild used to be called Hel, Goddess of death or the underworld (NT 8) but had calm/cool emotions at the time. NT 10 she stopped being cool-headed, and we all know what happened... I hadn't noticed that foreshadowing before...

[natchu96]

Frankly isn't what framework of religion a magic god was "born" in kind of irrelevant when they could probably just modify the world to have perceived whatever it is that created the legends differently?

And since she is the real Odin, the fact that all of her powers match Odin-related legends is probably more personal preference than anything.


EDIT: Spouting random thoughts again, but I wonder what "changes" Aleister made to himself exactly to prevent himself from being stuck at the level of a magic god (feels kinda weird looking down on godhood like that like the power is completely useless weaksauce)?

It seems his Blasting Rod is functional, so unless he found a way to bypass self-inflicted injury entirely he's probably not simply an esper or anything . . . though espers would indeed be incapable of becoming magic gods as far as we know (unless Accel thinks he can pull it off . . . seems like he can control enough of the imaginary vectors to survive magic usage and even reverse-engineered feng shui for a bit, but magic god theory is likely a tad complex for, well, everyone but the ones that already did it XD).

[dniv]

Originally Posted by natchu96

Frankly isn't what framework of religion a magic god was "born" in kind of irrelevant when they could probably just modify the world to have perceived whatever it is that created the legends differently?

And since she is the real Odin, the fact that all of her powers match Odin-related legends is probably more personal preference than anything.


EDIT: Spouting random thoughts again, but I wonder what "changes" Aleister made to himself exactly to prevent himself from being stuck at the level of a magic god (feels kinda weird looking down on godhood like that like the power is completely useless weaksauce)?

It seems his Blasting Rod is functional, so unless he found a way to bypass self-inflicted injury entirely he's probably not simply an esper or anything . . . though espers would indeed be incapable of becoming magic gods as far as we know (unless Accel thinks he can pull it off . . . seems like he can control enough of the imaginary vectors to survive magic usage and even reverse-engineered feng shui for a bit, but magic god theory is likely a tad complex for, well, everyone but the ones that already did it XD).

I was actually curious about that as well. I'm going to touch on that in my review.

Since really, why would Aleister be calling the gods' weak-sauce. At the same time, it seems as if he had been disillusioned at one point as well, and that he wasn't able to stand up when he needed to so he failed... I wonder if he's therefore more screwed up than Accelerator or Mugino were, though I somehow doubt it... given how he is now... by he is sure sacrificing a lot of people seemingly for whatever his goal is...

[desrtsku]

(inserting myself in-between the deep religion talk)

Originally Posted by allfictions

-Hinduism lecture-

I admit I've kinda forgot about that one. Thanks for the clarification. (I appreciate it)

Originally Posted by dniv

I mean they do say that they had to interfere to prevent Touma's growth from changing its planned course.

I'm still wondering what they meant by this. Are they the reason behind why Touma "wouldn't die" (or whatever Othinus talked about in NT9) and why his life is so messed up?

Originally Posted by LevelSeven

A fish so big it can rule over the world (+supernatural powers), be feared and hated by the rest of the world. Yes.

Lv.7 ... do you hate Aphrodite?