(L) Yahari Ore no Seishun Love Come wa Machigatteiru.

[Heat066]

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor

Hmm, reading this series, is there some element of Japanese values dissonance at play? For some reason this theme of eventually conforming in order to function in society seems hammered in a bit imo. I mean some level of conformity is evident in a lot of societies, but I was wondering if it applied more prominently here. I know it's part of the comedy but the way Hikigaya's disposition and personality is pretty universally mocked sort of gets to me at times.

I can relate to what you feel, but this is mostly true at the start of the series, by now Hikigaya's actually pretty respected(well, at least by the most important people), examples:

Yukino: In the latest volume confessed she felt inferior to him, even comparing him to her elder sister Haruno, having qualities she wishes she had.

Hayama: I think this one is pretty clear, Hayama has relied a lot on Hachiman, both acknowledge each other, and seriously, Hachiman is the only one Hayama has to talk about serious stuff.

Haruno: Even though her interest in him might be for really shady reasons(manipulative per se), it's a given she can see great qualities on him.

Iroha: After becoming president she got to know Hachiman on another level, relies a lot on him seeing he's pretty capable when helping her, heck, it's said in the LN he was the one giving directions to the student council.

Orimoto: She was an ass to him before, but after Hayama shook her grounds for insulting Hachiman she started seeing him on another light, even more after watching him in action in the 9th volume, I think her buying him a can of tea is her way of saying "Sorry for everything".

[DawnEmperor]

@Heat066 I see, because I'm reading some of the light novel summaries for some of the earlier novels and some of the characters seem even more harsh to him(in the anime it was tolerable). The LN seems to emphasize constantly emphasize how rotten he is and how he has to be cured, which honestly I'd find pretty offensive and irritating if I didn't put it under "comedic sociopathy". I mean I won't deny Hachiman's flawed, cynical, and understandably some people find him creepy. But it does seem a bit misleading to say he's naturally like that(clearly he had some experiences that shaped him).

Overall I agree that now that we're 9 novels in, it's gotten better. Hikigaya's insights aren't just swept away by conformity, but we also the explore the flaws of philosophy without destroying the person. It was just a bit jarring to read those first parts of the novel where his problems are kind of treated trivially.

I think a comparable character might be Daria. The series examines the pros and cons of her personality and no one's really evil on the show, just superficial.

[lijenstina]

Originally Posted by DawnEmperor

@Heat066 I see, because I'm reading some of the light novel summaries for some of the earlier novels and some of the characters seem even more harsh to him(in the anime it was tolerable). The LN seems to emphasize constantly emphasize how rotten he is and how he has to be cured, which honestly I'd find pretty offensive and irritating if I didn't put it under "comedic sociopathy". I mean I won't deny Hachiman's flawed, cynical, and understandably some people find him creepy. But it does seem a bit misleading to say he's naturally like that(clearly he had some experiences that shaped him).

Overall I agree that now that we're 9 novels in, it's gotten better. Hikigaya's insights aren't just swept away by conformity, but we also the explore the flaws of philosophy without destroying the person. It was just a bit jarring to read those first parts of the novel where his problems are kind of treated trivially.

I think a comparable character might be Daria. The series examines the pros and cons of her personality and no one's really evil on the show, just superficial.

Hachiman is harsh and doesn't hold back on insults and he is quick on being judgmental too.

Spoiler for Shizuka question about what he thinks of Yukino from volume 1:

“So, as a twisted person, what do you think of Yukinoshita Yukino?”

I replied immediately. “She’s a bitch.” I hated her with the kind of venom you reserve for people who tell you, ‘I think you should give up on “Concrete Road.”

Not to mention what he thought of Yui (in her case he even said it several times) or Iroha when he first met them.

Also from the start there is a notion how his past did influenced him especially the middle school days. Later on the car accident involving Yukino and Yui first day of High School was mentioned as the one event that did make him a loner.

Hachiman needs time to open up. Watari did show that in the dialogue with Komachi in volume 8 how they needed a lot of time to reach a brother/sister relationship they have now.

“Fifteen years from now. No, that’s not it. There’s definitely a longer period than that too.”
That was surely about the possibilities. The possibility that in the same way it took fifteen years for me to get along well Komachi, there might be someone else who I could do the same with.

It is present also in the Service club too. He needed 8 and a half volumes to arrive to his current position - wanting a real connection with others or like he said something 'genuine'.

Anyway, the first volume directly talks about changing of Hachiman's personality.

Spoiler for From Nanodesu volume 1 chapter 1-5:

“Um… You’ve been saying nonsensical stuff about straightening me out and improvement and reformation and revolutionary girls and whatnot for a while now, but I never really asked for any of it…”

Hiratsuka-sensei cocked her head slightly in confusion. “Hm?”

“…What are you saying? If you don’t change, you’ll be at a level that’ll make living in society difficult.” Yukinoshita looked at me as if her argument was self-evident, like ‘War is fruitless. Lay down your arms.’ “It appears that your humanity is severely inferior to that of others. Don’t you want to change that part of yourself?”

“That’s not it… I don’t want people to keep harping on about making me change, telling me who I am. Generally, to change yourself at the word of another would mean that you wouldn’t be yourself anymore right? ‘It is said that the self is…’”

“‘The self is such that it cannot be viewed by oneself objectively.’”

My attempt at sounding impressive by ripping a saying off Descartes was intercepted by Yukinoshita… Even though I was about to say something pretty good.

“You’re just running away from the problem. If you don’t change, you won’t move forward.” Yukinoshita said, cutting me down with her harsh words. Why has she been so hostile and snappy the whole time? Are her parents crabs or something?

“What’s wrong with running away? Don’t keep telling me to change; you’re just repeating yourself. Do you face the sun and say, ‘The westering sun is too intense and everybody’s bothered by it, so please set in the east from now on’?”

“That’s a fallacy. Please don’t stray from the issue at hand. The sun does not move — it is the Earth that moves. Don’t you know the heliocentric theory?”

“That was just a figure of speech! If that was a fallacy, then what you’re saying is also a fallacy. If I changed, I’d be changing to run away from the problem. So why are you telling me not to run away? If I really wasn’t running away from the problem, I’d stay right where I am. Why can’t you just accept my past and the way am I now?”

“…That wouldn’t solve any problems or save anybody.” As Yukinoshita spoke the word ‘save’, her expression was that of bloodcurdling anger. I inadvertently flinched. I was ready to apologize and blurt out a ‘S-s-s-s-sorry!’ if need be. Talking about salvation wasn’t usually something a mere high school student would do. I just couldn’t understand what it was that was driving her this far.

The gist of what Yukinoshita says here is in the vein of the main theme of Little Busters. Changing yourself, becoming stronger to help others, so your friends can rely on you in need - that's the meaning of 'saving' someone. To not run away but to confront the problem head on. Ideas wise I found it quite similar here. All the three characters in the club are somehow flawed - their characters have distinctive weaknesses that they have to overcome so they can move on. The club is the framework to achieve that like the eternal first semester was in the VN.

[DawnEmperor]

So is the novel necessarily supporting yukinoshita's point of view?

[Tenzen12]

Not even Yukinoshita herself support Yukinoshita's point of view anymore

[Shadow5YA]

It's still about what needs to be done to save themselves and others, but that doesn't need them to change who they are like Yukinoshita used to suggest.

Like in this volume, Hachiman isn't any less depreciating than he usually is. When he couldn't fix the committee, he just asked for help from someone who could.

[JDFUdude]

Hikki is rotten by social standards, yet he knows (at some point) how to work in society, proven in this volume. The thing is that his former methods of problem solving were spot on, yet not correct, at least if you take into account feelings and all those things.

[Quol]

Hikki will be able to lead a normal life, he can get a job and live out his days without problems because he is shown to be competent. Hikki is a quick learner and can perform what is needed but that is not what the novel is focusing on.

What Shizuka meant by him having a hard time in life is socially, and she was trying to get him to be more accepting of other people while at the same time helping Yukino. From what i have seen its working out very well.

[Tenzen12]

That's not exactly true. Being competent is not enough to get and mantain a job. Most of occupation require go through job interview and even when one get in, he would have to conform himself to his superior and coworkers, if you can't you will not stay long anyway.

[Quol]

It was shown multiple times that Hikki can work with his superior and coworkers and do his job well, if his work during the various events are a reflection on his ability to work then he shouldnt have a problem maintaining a steady life. His social life on the other hand would be pretty bad which is what i think Shizuka meant when she said he would have a tough life.

[Tenzen12]

Nope, it always was short term events and even here he caused various frictions, after few (or likely more than few) complains from his coleegs and being Hikki on his superiors he would get quickly fired.

[lijenstina]

At the same time the Student Councils meetings have shown that he couldn't do it by himself but only trough the Service Club. Each member tried to do something alone in the 8th volume and Hachiman tried to tackle the Iroha's request by himself in the 9th and all of them couldn't really solve anything on their own, including the half baked Hikki's solution to preserve the club. In the end, it shows that cooperation, sharing of ideas and support is really important and the result is much better.

We are not going to enter the whole problem of how human intelligence and capabilities are modular and things like emotional intelligence, social intelligence and different talents. To add to that motivation, emotional stability, beliefs, communication skills and who knows what.

The Service Club working together is much more capable than each of them trying on it's own. In the process of doing so they'll also improve as individuals.

[Tenzen12]

Yep, that much is undoubtely true.

[Excorsism]

A little off topic but it turns out Watari reads Akame ga Kill! . You can expect references to it in the next book.

And apparently the girl he liked was Chelsea, .

[Distoch]

Originally Posted by Excorsism

A little off topic but it turns out Watari reads Akame ga Kill! . You can expect references to it in the next book.

And apparently the girl he likes was Chelsea, .

References huh , as long as everyone stays level-headed I'm good.

[Tenzen12]

Whoever wad that girl, I feel bad for her already...

[lijenstina]

I've stumbled on it a while ago but, for some reason, never got past reading the description on Batoto for it.

What he doesn’t know is that this girl is about to be visited by a family of assassins (including the girl who robbed him) and they might be the good guys, and be recruiting...

It has a strange understanding of ethics.

[Heat066]

Originally Posted by Excorsism

A little off topic but it turns out Watari reads Akame ga Kill! . You can expect references to it in the next book.

And apparently the girl he likes was Chelsea, .

Im an avid reader of Akame ga kill!(the anime is airing 6th of July too) so I expect Watari to not disappoint me

and Chelsea...omg I don't even want to rembember.

[Okashira]

Originally Posted by Hikki

Happiness was, you know, something like, how should I say it? It’s something along the lines of this: Maybe it’s something like the feeling of watching your little sister in an apron preparing breakfast while humming a tune first thing in the morning?

With that scenery unfolding right before my eyes, I let out a yawn and waited absentmindedly for my beloved little sister to finish making breakfast.

And this was what you could call happiness. We don’t need something like marriage, yeah!

I was going to harshly criticize Hikki with "Siscon Banchou" or something...... but then I realized that, Komachi in apron cooking style while humming isn't an unhappy scene at all

[omega253]

Originally Posted by Excorsism

A little off topic but it turns out Watari reads Akame ga Kill! . You can expect references to it in the next book.

And apparently the girl he likes was Chelsea, .

Oh god. I still remember how I felt when I read that part as well. Fellow AgK readers will know what I'm talking about, since I don't want to give spoilers to anyone who didn't read the manga, but want to watch the anime.

Agh, it's embittering every time I remember it...