(L+CR) Akame ga Kill

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Calca

I don't think so, in this case she was looking out for her own interests. If there was nothing for her to gain, then there's a chance she wouldn't have bothered.

In other words, she wasn't doing it to simply off the PM's rivals to protect him.

don't really want to enter any Esdeath discussion but (Bolded part)> isn't that what corruption is in it's most basic sense ? self-interest and greed? without any thought to others, proper procedures, morals an such...

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Calca

I don't think so, in this case she was looking out for her own interests. If there was nothing for her to gain, then there's a chance she wouldn't have bothered.

In other words, she wasn't doing it to simply off the PM's rivals to protect him.

And your point is?

She misappropriated the use of soldiers under her command to commit a crime so she could get something she wanted from a political official. It was a clear case of bribery, and bribery is corruption.

[mangatron]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Except this isn't true. We just saw her order her subordinates to kill the Prime Minister's political rivals just so he would assemble the Jaegers for her. That's corruption.

"Hey Esdese, I want you to take care of some troublemakers!"

"Well it would take an equal force to stop them..."

"Gee, you're asking for quite a lot, but.... if you could take care of a little problem for me..."

She is but a soldier not interested in politics. Having spent time in a corrupt country, it is always the higher ups that control the corruption, and those not in control are fodder. The prime minister took advantage of her, using her for his own gain, which would not have happened had they not asked her to do a job in the first place.

[kusabireika]

Uhm.... Is this discussion becoming a spoiler discussion about esdeath =_=

Nvm I just watch the anime version it's kinda good

[Calca]

Originally Posted by garbage

don't really want to enter any Esdeath discussion but (Bolded part)> isn't that what corruption is in it's most basic sense ? self-interest and greed? without any thought to others, proper procedures, morals an such...

I would disagree. If anything I would argue she is just using the Empire because it serves who she is. Esdeath isn't interested in money, political power, fame, or anything of the sort. The PM gave her an order and she carried it out like a soldier at the same time she was able to get her own squad. She knows what and who she is.

Being cruel doesn't mean one is corrupt. She's cruel because she is cruel. If she were corrupt I would argue that occurs when forces outside of her chain of command interjects and causes her to act in a certain way.

With your statement in regards to morals, proper procedures, and others, you have to think about her point of view instead of your own. In that sense, I would argue Esdeath cannot be corrupted.

Originally Posted by Endscape

And your point is?

She misappropriated the use of soldiers under her command to commit a crime so she could get something she wanted from a political official. It was a clear case of bribery, and bribery is corruption.

See above statement. And was it a "crime"? From your POV it was.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Except this isn't true. We just saw her order her subordinates to kill the Prime Minister's political rivals just so he would assemble the Jaegers for her. That's corruption.

I thought that the Jaegers were formed because her subordinates were killed, not because she made a deal with the Prime Minister? The Prime Minister plotted for her to kill his rivals in order for her to lure out Night Raid. Her interests, as stated, lie with conflict and battles. I don't think she cared that they were political rivals, and probably like Liver, she could appreciate the political achievements of those she killed. However, that probably didn't matter to her, since she is more concerned with accomplishing her goals (which is to eliminate Night Raid).

We might dislike Justice-chan for killing Sheele, since she used whatever methods possible to win, but was it corruption? No, it's more of the ends justify the means.

Edit:

Add to that, she gave all her gold reward to her soldiers. She is not interested in political power or money.

[Tormenk]

Corrupt or not, Esdeath is the prime pillar holding up the PM's reign and by proxy, the suffering the Empire is going through.

There is little compromise to be made with Esdeath if they want to feasibly remove the PM. Her interests doesn't exactly run in line or parallel with the new kingdom the rebels have in mind either so that's that.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by mangatron

The prime minister took advantage of her, using her for his own gain, which would not have happened had they not asked her to do a job in the first place.

I can agree with this, but let's not paint Esdeath as some naive innocent.

She knew she was being used, and went along with it because it was what she wanted. If she was a different person, she would refuse to commit a crime just to complete a job they asked her to do.

Originally Posted by Calca

The PM gave her an order and she carried it out like a soldier at the same time she was able to get her own squad. She knows what and who she is.

Do you understand the contradiction in what you just wrote?

Firstly, the PM can't order her to commit a crime. Secondly, it wasn't even an order, it was a quid pro quo. You don't give bribes to soldiers for them to follow orders.

If she were corrupt I would argue that occurs when forces outside of her chain of command interjects and causes her to act in a certain way.

... This is exactly what happened. She did a backroom deal with the Prime Minster, and induced her to kill his political rivals, something that's outside her military duties.

And was it a "crime"? From your POV it was.

Are you trying to say that killing an innocent person isn't a crime?

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

I thought that the Jaegers were formed because her subordinates were killed, not because she made a deal with the Prime Minister?

It's both. She was brought back and the concept of the Jaegers created to hunt down Night Raid. However, the Prime Minister decided to take advantage and avoid reassigning the members so he could get Esdeath to do something for him.

The Prime Minister plotted for her to kill his rivals in order for her to lure out Night Raid.

No, the Prime Minister plotted with her to kill his rivals so he could get rid of them. Esdeath just decided to make use of it to drag them out.

Her interests, as stated, lie with conflict and battles. I don't think she cared that they were political rivals, and probably like Liver, she could appreciate the political achievements of those she killed. However, that probably didn't matter to her, since she is more concerned with accomplishing her goals (which is to eliminate Night Raid).

That's true. The fact remains that she involved herself in illegal activities, so she's corrupt.

We might dislike Justice-chan for killing Sheele, since she used whatever methods possible to win, but was it corruption? No, it's more of the ends justify the means.

What does this have to do with corruption?

Add to that, she gave all her gold reward to her soldiers. She is not interested in political power or money.

Wait, do you think that only people interested in these things can be corrupt? That's not it. She subverted the rules to get something she wanted. That's corruption.

[Calca]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Do you understand the contradiction in what you just wrote?

Firstly, the PM can't order her to commit a crime. Secondly, it wasn't even an order, it was a quid pro quo. You don't give bribes to soldiers for them to follow orders.

From Esdeath's point of view, this isn't a crime, this is who she is. She isn't doing something that goes against her "law". It is the law of the modern world that you think she is violating

... This is exactly what happened. She did a backroom deal with the Prime Minster, and induced her to kill his political rivals, something that's outside her military duties.

Taking orders from the Prime Minister is outside her military duties? Like I said, the PM is above her in her chain of command.

Are you trying to say that killing an innocent person isn't a crime?

Don't put words in my mouth. I already explained to you this is all from her point of view.

It's both. She was brought back and the concept of the Jaegers created to hunt down Night Raid. However, the Prime Minister decided to take advantage and avoid reassigning the members so he could get Esdeath to do something for him.

So that somehow makes Esdeath corrupt?

No, the Prime Minister plotted with her to kill his rivals so he could get rid of them. Esdeath just decided to make use of it to drag them out.

Esdeath did not "plot" with him. This was all the PM's doing. Esdeath happened to get a squad of out it because Night Raid was becomming a large threat.

That's true. The fact remains that she involved herself in illegal activities, so she's corrupt.

Illegal? It seems to me she acted within the laws of the empire. Her superior asked her to do something, and she did it. If Esdeath went down the streets of the capital slaughtering civilians in broad daylight at her own discretion, then maybe you'd have an argument about illegal activities according to the setting of the world the characters live in.

Again you are looking at her through your morals and not hers.

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Calca

I would disagree. If anything I would argue she is just using the Empire because it serves who she is. Esdeath isn't interested in money, political power, fame, or anything of the sort. The PM gave her an order and she carried it out like a soldier at the same time she was able to get her own squad. She knows what and who she is.

Being cruel doesn't mean one is corrupt. She's cruel because she is cruel. If she were corrupt I would argue that occurs when forces outside of her chain of command interjects and causes her to act in a certain way.

With your statement in regards to morals, proper procedures, and others, you have to think about her point of view instead of your own. In that sense, I would argue Esdeath cannot be corrupted..

OK so you said it again (bolded part). AGAIN isn't corruption using things FOR YOUR OWN SELF-INTEREST without regard to others, law and basic morality?

Also corruption isn't just about money & political power, more often than not it's the approach on things. Like aspiring and getting rich is not bad by itself but stealing from government funds to do so would be. Like becoming the most influential senator/general in the army is not bad by itself, but making shady deals in the backrooms to do so is.

And finally what her being cruel because that is how she is, cannot be an excuse. In fact it just puts her in a more negative light, her very being is corrupt. As far as i can see (anime viewer only here), she knows exactly what she is doing, and yet it doesn't bother her she actually revels in it, because she can continue to be cruel and wage war and kill people. Her association with the corrupt PM knowing what the PM is, is corruption in itself. She doesn't care one bit, if it's against morals, or any kind of laws because she has power. Exactly the same kind of reasoning lots of degenerate people in government & the upper class holds.


case in point, what is the difference between the two generals Najenda & Esdeath, especially during that flashback. That's a very telling scene right there.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Endscape

It's both. She was brought back and the concept of the Jaegers created to hunt down Night Raid. However, the Prime Minister decided to take advantage and avoid reassigning the members so he could get Esdeath to do something for him.

Was that ever stated in the anime? I went back to episode 7 and still did not see that.

Originally Posted by Endscape

That's true. The fact remains that she involved herself in illegal activities, so she's corrupt.

As far as I can tell, yes, she agreed with the Prime Minister to the plan, but it was also as an order from him. She could have said no, but not saying no to orders does not equal corruption. Also, in that world where people kill each other constantly, is it even considered illegal? If the Prime Minister stated as eliminating a threat to the throne, would it be considered illegal? The king makes the rules here, and the Prime Minister controls the king. Esdeath is a solder who loves conflicts and battles.

Originally Posted by Endscape

What does this have to do with corruption?

The point was that it wasn't corruption. It was also leading up to the point that they were going along with the ends justify the means way of thinking.

Originally Posted by Endscape

Wait, do you think that only people interested in these things can be corrupt? That's not it. She subverted the rules to get something she wanted. That's corruption.

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of corruption. Some definition states moral perversion as corruption, which she is. Others state it as perversion of integrity, which she is not. Then there is bribery, which she is not, as far as the anime shows. Then there is dishonest proceedings, which she can be or not, depending on which point of view.

Also, again, we don't know if she subverted any rules, from what is shown. You have to take into account the context of the time, location, and political background of the show. In this world, is what Esdeath doing considered corruption? Yes, she is framing Night Raid, but framing is not corruption. It's dirty as heck, though.

Edit:

Also, if involving oneself with illegal activities is considered corrupt, then what Night Raid is doing is considered corrupt. Night Raid is murdering citizens and army officials.

Also, Kurome took out an entire village. I'm pretty sure she killed a lot of innocent people, but was that corrupt?

[Calca]

Originally Posted by garbage

OK so you said it again (bolded part). AGAIN isn't corruption using things FOR YOUR OWN SELF-INTEREST without regard to others, law and basic morality?

Also corruption isn't just about money & political power, more often than not it's the approach on things. Like aspiring and getting rich is not bad by itself but stealing from government funds to do so would be. Like becoming the most influential senator/general in the army is not bad by itself, but making shady deals in the backrooms to do so is.

And finally what her being cruel because that is how she is, cannot be an excuse. In fact it just puts her in a more negative light, her very being is corrupt. As far as i can see (anime viewer only here), she knows exactly what she is doing, and yet it doesn't bother her she actually revels in it, because she can continue to be cruel at wage war and kill people. Her association with the corrupt PM knowing what the PM is, is corruption in itself. She doesn't care one bit, if it's against morals, or any kind of laws because she has power. Exactly the same kind of reasoning lots of degenerate people in government & the upper class holds.

As a manga reader I can't really argue with you on this with a lot of specific points you've brought up at this time.

However, according to the society she is part of and the Empire she is in, what specific law has she broken? The PM gave her a duty and she carried it out. There are a ton of examples in anime and fiction and non-fiction everywhere where soldiers carry out orders from superiors that may be against the morals of our society in our world. However, in this case her world isn't our world. Her background isn't our background.

I believe the problem here is that our definition of "corruption" is different. I'm looking at this from who she is and her world she is in. You're looking at her from our world. In your case I'd probably call her corrupt too. An evil cruel sadist who derives pleasure from others' suffering.

But at the same time I am taking into consideration how her mind works due to her surroundings which is where my argument is coming from.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Calca

From Esdeath's point of view, this isn't a crime, this is who she is. She isn't doing something that goes against her "law".

And who the hell should care? Just because Esdeath doesn't think something is a crime, everyone else should just be OK with that? That's nonsense.

It is the law of the modern world that you think she is violating

Ah, the moral relativity argument.

Firstly, the world of Akame ga Kill has modern guns, T-shirts, cruise ships made of metal, things that were invented in our world pretty recently, so if you want to compare it to our world in terms of modernity, it's not that far apart. so you can't use the level of culture as an excuse. In any case, the Nuremburg defense was rubbished more than 500 years ago, so that's not an excuse either.

I haven't seen anything where murder of innocent people is allowed under the law here either.

Taking orders from the Prime Minister is outside her military duties? Like I said, the PM is above her in her chain of command.

I repeat, if it was an order, why is he giving out bribes for her to do it then? He could just order her to do it, and she would do it.

So that somehow makes Esdeath corrupt?

She went along with it, so yes.

Esdeath did not "plot" with him. This was all the PM's doing. Esdeath happened to get a squad of out it because Night Raid was becomming a large threat.

She accepted his bribe, so yes, she plotted with him.

Illegal? It seems to me she acted within the laws of the empire.

Which law of the Empire allows her to kill innocent people without trial?

Her superior asked her to do something, and she did it.

The Nuremburg defence isn't any kind of valid defense, and it wasn't an official military order in the first place.

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

Was that ever stated in the anime? I went back to episode 7 and still did not see that.

Don't know if the anime skipped that part out.

As far as I can tell, yes, she agreed with the Prime Minister to the plan, but it was also as an order from him.

I repeat, if it was an official order, why is he offering her a bribe in order to do it?

Also, in that world where people kill each other constantly, is it even considered illegal?

I think we can assume murder is illegal in this world. Why would the likes of Aria's family hide their hobby if it wasn't?

If the Prime Minister stated as eliminating a threat to the throne, would it be considered illegal?

What about trifling things like trials and such? Even that poor guy that got ripped apart by bulls was at least granted an audience, and was given a bullshit reason to be killed.

The point was that it wasn't corruption. It was also leading up to the point that they were going along with the ends justify the means way of thinking.

No one said it was. Seiryu was doing her job as a police officer. Esdeath was doing the Prime Minister's dirty work, via an illegal order she accepted a bribe to do. See the difference?

[Calca]

Originally Posted by Endscape

And who the hell should care? Just because Esdeath doesn't think something is a crime, everyone else should just be OK with that? That's nonsense.



Ah, the moral relativity argument.

Firstly, the world of Akame ga Kill has modern guns, T-shirts, cruise ships made of metal, things that were invented in our world pretty recently, so if you want to compare it to our world in terms of modernity, it's not that far apart. so you can't use the level of culture as an excuse. In any case, the Nuremburg defense was rubbished more than 500 years ago, so that's not an excuse either.

I haven't seen anything where murder of innocent people is allowed under the law here either.



I repeat, if it was an order, why is he giving out bribes for her to do it then? He could just order her to do it, and she would do it.



She went along with it, so yes.



She accepted his bribe, so yes, she plotted with him.



Which law of the Empire allows her to kill innocent people without trial?



The Nuremburg defence isn't any kind of valid defense, and it wasn't an official military order in the first place.

You certainly seem to be getting salty about this for some reason. But reread or rewatch the anime and manga. Was this really a set in stone "deal" between the PM and Esdeath? "Kill these guys and I'll give you your squad". Was that what happened?

Also, you still cling to the moral and laws of our world. This isn't our world your looking at, this is hers. She's not "killing innocent people without trial". She's killing enemies of the empire. And for comparison reasons, bringing in modern events such as the Nuremberg trials to compare them with the settings of the anime is laughable. This isn't Nazi Germany or WWII. This is the world of Akame Ga Kill.

Hell even if you wanted to go beyond that, I suggest your read up on this. Are these people corrupt too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

[garbage]

Originally Posted by Calca

As a manga reader I can't really argue with you on this with a lot of specific points you've brought up at this time.

However, according to the society she is part of and the Empire she is in, what specific law has she broken? The PM gave her a duty and she carried it out. There are a ton of examples in anime and fiction and non-fiction everywhere where soldiers carry out orders from superiors that may be against the morals of our society in our world. However, in this case her world isn't our world. Her background isn't our background.

I believe the problem here is that our definition of "corruption" is different. I'm looking at this from who she is and her world she is in. You're looking at her from our world. In your case I'd probably call her corrupt too. An evil cruel sadist who derives pleasure from others' suffering.

But at the same time I am taking into consideration how her mind works due to her surroundings which is where my argument is coming from.

Bolded part 1 : And that's exactly why I pointed out that flashback with with Najenda...she was given the same duty as Esdeath in that scene. so what's the difference? which brings us to...

Bolded part 2 : ..and I'm not actually basing my arguments on my own views alone. So tell me again why was Night Raid formed? why did Najenda, already a General in the empire army" leave? So you're telling me Night Raid is killing people (and they themselves know what they do is wrong) just for the heck of it? Hell no! The people in their world themselves see the corruption. and it's not even just Night Raid & the revolutionary army.

If further material/info (hopefully in the anime since I doubt I would ever have time to peruse the manga/LN not sure which is the source material) about Esdeath comes in the future would redeem, or at least explain her actions then I might consider. But I seriously doubt it would change my views on her.

[Kyral]

Originally Posted by Calca

However, in this case her world isn't our world. Her background isn't our background.

I believe the problem here is that our definition of "corruption" is different. I'm looking at this from who she is and her world she is in. You're looking at her from our world.

Sorry, but I find it very hard to accept this kind of argument.

If there really is a difference in "our" world's morals and "her" world's morals, no one would have a problem with how the PM runs things.

But here we have Najenda, who pretty much grew up in the same world and sees the government as corrupt. So is she using "our" standarts? why? I thought thier moral standarts were different?

But no, they aren't really. People in and outside the empire have a set of morals very similiar to our own.
You tell us "thier" world's morals are different from ours, but the show itself shows us that they are not the cultural standart of the whole empire, but only a few corrupted beings from the capital.

EDIT: I guess garbage ninja'd my argument as I was typing...

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Calca

But reread or rewatch the anime and manga. Was this really a set in stone "deal" between the PM and Esdeath? "Kill these guys and I'll give you your squad". Was that what happened?

Yes.

Also, you still cling to the moral and laws of our world. This isn't our world your looking at, this is hers. She's not "killing innocent people without trial". She's killing enemies of the empire.

What sin did that old man and his daughter commit aside from being opposed to the Prime Minister?

As the people who posted earlier have mentioned, when Esdeath murdered civilians during that battle, why was Najenda so horrified, if, like you're suggesting, the world of Akame ga Kill has some alien moral code where these things aren't an issue? The point of that little aside is to show us that normal people in this world have morals like ours.

It's people like Esdeath and the Prime Minister that are anomalies.

And for comparison reasons, bringing in modern events such as the Nuremberg trials to compare them with the settings of the anime is laughable. This isn't Nazi Germany or WWII. This is the world of Akame Ga Kill.

I never said anything about the Nuremberg trials. I brought up the Nuremberg defence, which is the same idea you've been espousing, that soldiers that commit crimes because of orders aren't responsible for them. Even up to 500 years ago, that idea was scrapped. I don't see any reason it should be different in this world as I state above.

Hell even if you wanted to go beyond that, I suggest your read up on this. Are these people corrupt too?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

And what does this have to with corruption again?

[kusabireika]

._. Uhm this anime section o_o is it ok to discuss it here ? even some anime section post it on spoiler section ......

Uhm it's just my opinion you can choose to ignore it

Uhm speaking of which are both sister "akame and that jaiger girl they look similar" good? morality speaking ._. I haven't read manga .... Will read till finish

Sorry for confusing everyone

[Calca]

Originally Posted by garbage

Bolded part 1 : And that's exactly why I pointed out that flashback with with Najenda...she was given the same duty as Esdeath in that scene. so what's the difference? which brings us to...

Bolded part 2 : ..and I'm not actually basing my arguments on my own views alone. So tell me again why was Night Raid formed? why did Najenda, already a General in the empire army" leave? So you're telling me Night Raid is killing people (and they themselves know what they do is wrong) just for the heck of it? Hell no! The people in their world themselves see the corruption. and it's not even just Night Raid & the revolutionary army.

If further material/info (hopefully in the anime since I doubt I would ever have time to peruse the manga/LN not sure which is the source material) about Esdeath comes in the future would redeem, or at least explain her actions then I might consider. But I seriously doubt it would change my views on her.

Night Raid was formed because of what the PM was doing. It is easy to see the PM himself is corrupt, has no problem killing those who are a threat to him, and uses every means he can to consolidate his political power. You are putting the corruption of the PM on Esdeath herself simply because she is a general in the army. Najenda did not agree with the PM and left the army. Esdeath did not object to the PM and stayed as a general. That does not necessarily mean that Esdeath herself is corrupt.

Looking at it another way, if the PM wasn't in charge and some other PM was, and simply did not have Esdeath kill his political enemies, would you think Esdeath was corrupt? If Esdeath was simply confined to suppressing rebellions or keeping the peace would you think she is corrupt? Esdeath has not once gone beyond what she has been asked of nor has she ever used her status for her personal gain.

Also as far as Night Raid's actions, you can look at Justice Girl. Is she corrupt? Is she evil?

I would say no, she isn't corrupt or evil in fact she's quite pure hearted. However her own view of evil and justice is different from what we as a viewer sees. She sees evil as those who violate the laws of the Empire. With Night Raid, obviously assassinating people goes along with her view of evil (even if is different than our view of evil).

Now at the same time, I can safely say Justice girl wouldn't even let a simple purse snatching go unpunished. She has a high moral compass, but it's just for the side that we as the reader/viewer don't agree with.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by Kyral

If there really is a difference in "our" world's morals and "her" world's morals, no one would have a problem with how the PM runs things.

Different people have different perspective on what is morals. Also, people do not agree on a lot of different things. That is human nature. There are those that disagree with the PM, and there are those that agree with him. In every monarchy, there will always be people who disagree with how things are run. Yeah, this version of the monarchy is mostly horrible for the poor, but it is mostly great for the rich. Then if the rebels take over, will it reverse in the opposite direction? Being good for the poor and bad for the rich?