(L) Monogatari Series Light Novel discussion

[HammerOrNails]

Maybe, but I can still see this totally ending in a whimper just like Zaregoto.

[mugimugi]

Owari down should be taken as the series' "ending", or rather the overarching plotline's ending. The chronological ending is Hanamonogatari and Zoku Owari is just the latest book released. It's like a bonus chapter for Owari down, from what I've read so far it is actually intended to be fan-service and a reward for people who sticked with the series for so long. It doesn't really contribute anything new (other than showing Araragi "the truth"). That's pretty much what Nisio intended to say in the after word. I actually don't see any difference from Kabuki here.

[teja208]

Originally Posted by mugimugi

Owari down should be taken as the series' "ending", or rather the overarching plotline's ending. The chronological ending is Hanamonogatari and Zoku Owari is just the latest book released. It's like a bonus chapter for Owari down, from what I've read so far it is actually intended to be fan-service and a reward for people who sticked with the series for so long. It doesn't really contribute anything new (other than showing Araragi "the truth"). That's pretty much what Nisio intended to say in the after word. I actually don't see any difference from Kabuki here.

That's why don't find Zoku all that interesting after reading the spoiler so far. I mean what? Mirror World? That kind of came out of nowhere.

At this point I've given up on seeing Kizu animated, but would be great news if we get Monogatari 3rd Season announcement soon maybe within next year or two to give a proper closure for this series.

While the rest of the third season books (including Koyomimonogatari) should be enough for a 2 cour, this one came off like it could be made into a decent stand alone OVA like Neko Black and Hana.


Speaking of which, if we do get a 3rd season, I was wondering whether or not they will still continue with OP covering each of the respective heroines of the said book/subtitle. I'm not sure how popular Yotsugi and Ougi is in Japan, but they aren't the best looking girls to put it nicely, Sodachi is a minor character, I doubt Shinobu will ever get her's due to her seiyuu, and Mayoi Hell and Hitagi Rendezvous are rather short. They might be able to bend the rule a bit like Futakotome (Hitagi Opening) for Karen Bee.

[mugimugi]

The theme at its core is fitting though. In the second season, we had every character getting some sort of coming of age story, having to deal with their problems often coupled with an occult mystery. Koyomi was often the bystander or helping hand, but in the end, all of these characters had to help themselves.
Owarimonogatari and the previous two books were mostly about him being involved with Gaen's plot, which included Shinobu, his vampirism and the Shrine God.
In Owari 1, his own problems finally came to the surface, mostly in form of Sodachi. She affected him quite a lot and that story seemed be about solving Sodachi's problems but it really was about Ougi leading him to digging out his own failure of the past and dealing with it. Owari middle didn't have much to do with that but Owari down did contribute a little, mostly by revealing Ougi's identity which would lead to Koyomi having one or two realization's there.
Now Zoku, all it does is basically show him what effect he and the past events had on his friends, or perhaps surface something he didn't know about. It's not presented in a too serious way, I mean it's a story with Koyomi being the narrator... and he's in a "dream world"... (there are serious moments of course, especially with the Rainy Devil), but I feel like that this kinda is his own closure story now. Because basically, he made everyone else's problems his own problems. Which wasn't always the best decision considering that even Kaiki had to stop to get further involved with Nadeko after the god incident. So maybe he has to see all this, and move on. It's like an epilogue.

[Rost-Light]

Originally Posted by mugimugi

Owari down should be taken as the series' "ending", or rather the overarching plotline's ending. The chronological ending is Hanamonogatari and Zoku Owari is just the latest book released. It's like a bonus chapter for Owari down, from what I've read so far it is actually intended to be fan-service and a reward for people who sticked with the series for so long. It doesn't really contribute anything new (other than showing Araragi "the truth"). That's pretty much what Nisio intended to say in the after word. I actually don't see any difference from Kabuki here.

Make sense. Owari vol 3 is the Climax of Koyomi's character development. He has come a long way from "I just want to become a vegetable" in Kizumonogatari to "What I wish for? I have too many things I want to do, I can't choose" in Hana. We already have Denouement in Hanamonogatari (yeah, Nisio broke Classic Theory Of The Plot here) and now we saw the first time Araragi acts out selfishly - technically speaking - saves himself.
If Bake is Exposition, Owari is Climax and Hana is Denouement, then Zokuwari is definitely "bonus stage". I can't say I like fun-service books, but it all make sense - title of this book hints this too.
But I still hope that Zokuwari includes important part of the Denouement of the series.

***
I don't think that Kabuki is fun-service and "what if" book. Because it is all about development of relationship between Koyomi and Shinobu. This is important plot line in this series.

UPDATE

Originally Posted by mugimugi

It's like an epilogue.

I'm too slow... O_o
All my doubts were only about "what have we here? Is this really epilogue or just a "bonus stage"? But judging by your impressions Zokuwari is the former not latter. What a relief.

[mugimugi]

What I meant was that Kabuki is more a standalone story than the others. It also plays in an alternate world and the events occuring there have only impact on Koyomi and Shinobu. In Zoku it's a similar scenario.

There haven't been that many characters in one story since Nise, which is probably it looks like a party. But it has some great moments, the Rainy Devil, Kanbaru Tooe, Black Hanekawa (gasp), drunk lolis and an adult Mayoi... wait that's fan-service again.
What I heard is that the whole deal with Sodachi here is a downer. (I still have only a snippet of the book).
And Koyomi mentions at the end that his narration has gotten out of control. I think it's important in this case that this book is rather self-aware. It would be different if it would be a really try hard.


>While the rest of the third season books (including Koyomimonogatari) should be enough for a 2 cour, this one came off like it could be made into a decent stand alone OVA like Neko Black and Hana.

I think Koyomimonogatari only works as an OVA as well. But I really hope the anime format goes back to Bake/Nise standards. Without the questionable changes that Nise had.

[Pi-face]

Originally Posted by mugimugi

>While the rest of the third season books (including Koyomimonogatari) should be enough for a 2 cour, this one came off like it could be made into a decent stand alone OVA like Neko Black and Hana.
I think Koyomimonogatari only works as an OVA as well.

Kyomimonogatari have rather difficult structure. Maybe they can fit it in 2-hours OVA, but there would be a lot of "scissors job", I mean Shinbo have to cut almost half of it *looking at Kabukimonogatari* which he usually did And I wonder if they could add there some of short stories from anime guide books.
But Zokuowari might be made into a movie. We might concider Neko Black and Hana as movies as well, and thinking about this situation with Kizu - they might eventually release it as OVA as well (I mean Kizu OVA).

Originally Posted by mugimugi

But I really hope the anime format goes back to Bake/Nise standards. Without the questionable changes that Nise had.

But what changes it actually had? It's mostly a bright story, so it is in the novel. Yeah, there are less unique and abstract scenes. And I think they did more of "returning to the roots of Bakemonogatari" in Neko Black. Though I don't believe that this will be the case for what is left in the season three. Maybe for Ougi Formula as exception, and 50/50 for Koyomimonogatari but that is all.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

I still think that Kyomimonogatari should be made into a 3-4 episode "fake recap arc." As in since it refers to past untold events, Shaft should just make them like they are edited recap compilation episodes of TV episodes that never existed.

[mugimugi]

Originally Posted by Pi-face

But what changes it actually had? It's mostly a bright story, so it is in the novel. Yeah, there are less unique and abstract scenes. And I think they did more of "returning to the roots of Bakemonogatari" in Neko Black. Though I don't believe that this will be the case for what is left in the season three. Maybe for Ougi Formula as exception, and 50/50 for Koyomimonogatari but that is all.

Bakemonogatari and Nisemonogatari had a couple of cuts that were "important" for further insight on some characters in my opinion. Like the dialogues Araragi had with Kanbaru in Bake left a different impression of her on me than the anime.
But as for Nise, Karen Bee was alright although that fight at the bus stop...
Tsukihi Phoenix wasn't good though, especially the fight with Kagenui. They cut everything that would have shown more of her personality. http://metanorn.net/2012/04/from-the...pt#more-113733

[Pi-face]

Originally Posted by mugimugi

Bakemonogatari and Nisemonogatari had a couple of cuts that were "important" for further insight on some characters in my opinion. Like the dialogues Araragi had with Kanbaru in Bake left a different impression of her on me than the anime.
But as for Nise, Karen Bee was alright although that fight at the bus stop...
Tsukihi Phoenix wasn't good though, especially the fight with Kagenui. They cut everything that would have shown more of her personality. http://metanorn.net/2012/04/from-the...pt#more-113733

Wow, that was certainly cool scene. As well as cutted scene at the end of Tsukihi Phoenix when Araragi explained changes in Hitagi.
Still old novels lies untranslated. And not much articles about scenes which haven't been animated I wish there was a list of this material, but fully translated novel is always better. But it seems in best case we have one fully translated novel per year.

[Rost-Light]

Originally Posted by mugimugi

They cut everything that would have shown more of her personality. http://metanorn.net/2012/04/from-the...pt#more-113733

Who just said "Overkill Red"?

Huh... Nisio can create very interesting characters, but, Good Lord, just how he likes to use the same techniques and tropes... Yeah this themes and motives are shown from different angles, but he used them in EVERY series.

But it seems in best case we have one fully translated novel per year.

It seems you still remain optimistic about this. Fully translated novel? Yeah, I recall that you have found Otori in the abyss of chan-s and nyaatorrents, but now monogatari are abandoned by EVERY ONE translators. I guess we shouldn't expect much.

[FelynxTiger]

Originally Posted by Rost-Light

It seems you still remain optimistic about this. Fully translated novel? Yeah, I recall that you have found Otori in the abyss of chan-s and nyaatorrents, but now monogatari are abandoned by EVERY ONE translators. I guess we shouldn't expect much.

There should be a japanese course called "Learning japanese to be able to read the monogatari novels" then everyone would be happy

[Altima of the Gates]

People, who doesn't acknowledge "Hitagi and Koyomi relationship" at all. We have some novels now, we saw Koimonogatari, but a lot of speculations like "Koyomi loves ONLY Hanekawa! He start dating with Hitagi only because she force him to do so! He hasn't any feelings for her!" still remain. And it is not only someone's opinion in discussions - you can find something like that even in different wiki and information portals.
I can understand why this opinion spread through people who saw only anime. Koyomi feelings is not obvious here and Hanekawa is much purer than in novels.

Not really, Araragi goes on and on about "his" Hanekawa even after Neko White chronologically, where he is supposed to know all her dark secrets (and she didn't seem any purer than the novel, so I don't know what you mean). Sure, it's been set in stone that he loves Hitagi more, but he still pretty much praises her almost any time he speaks about her. I have nothing against Hitagi's role and agree with your points, but you got to admit it can be a tad maddening.

People should take it to be what it is, Nisio trolling about that relationship. He says he was disgusted by her in Neko Black, but then tells the Cat that he liked her. The problem is that Nisio made their relationship too complicated, then shuts it down or shits on her through x character to make her less desirable, but has these awkward little things he spreads out that make people think, "wait what? does he like her, admire her, hate her, WHAT did you want to do with this character Nisio?" and then is unceremoniously put off stage until she pops up randomly to fix or clarify some issue. I can understand the people still confused, the character analysis can get awfully murky with how self-aware and satirical the series is.

Its interesting that in the commentary for the last episode of Neko White, Tsukihi and Nadeko were bawling and Tsukihi calls her brother an idiot during the rejection scene.

That said, yes, he loves Hitagi and they should get over it.

Kyomimonogatari have rather difficult structure. Maybe they can fit it in 2-hours OVA, but there would be a lot of "scissors job", I mean Shinbo have to cut almost half of it *looking at Kabukimonogatari* which he usually did And I wonder if they could add there some of short stories from anime guide books.

The guide books and short stories would be a stretch, better to just leave those to written form. Koyomimonogatari would be a good 15 minute per episode OVA, and just use it to segue into the next season. Much better than the recaps they've used in the past by far.

[Rost-Light]

Originally Posted by Altima of the Gates

Not really, Araragi goes on and on about "his" Hanekawa even after Neko White chronologically, where he is supposed to know all her dark secrets (and she didn't seem any purer than the novel, so I don't know what you mean). Sure, it's been set in stone that he loves Hitagi more, but he still pretty much praises her almost any time he speaks about her. I have nothing against Hitagi's role and agree with your points, but you got to admit it can be a tad maddening.

People should take it to be what it is, Nisio trolling about that relationship. He says he was disgusted by her in Neko Black, but then tells the Cat that he liked her. The problem is that Nisio made their relationship too complicated, then shuts it down or shits on her through x character to make her less desirable, but has these awkward little things he spreads out that make people think, "wait what? does he like her, admire her, hate her, WHAT did you want to do with this character Nisio?" and then is unceremoniously put off stage until she pops up randomly to fix or clarify some issue. I can understand the people still confused, the character analysis can get awfully murky with how self-aware and satirical the series is.

That said, yes, he loves Hitagi and they should get over it.

I don't deny that Koyomi and Hanekawa relationship are very complicated either. And I don't deny Koyomi's different feelings toward Hanekawa. The things are just as you say: very confused. I just have some malevolence towards people who deny very existence of this complicated relationships. Who just want to put it extremely simple. Like "He love X, he friends with Y and has no feelings toward Z". Human's feelings have much more shades than simple words like "love" and "friendship" can explain. And because Nisio is good writer his characters have not so simple relationships.
I don't want to become a radical himself.

And about novels and anime version... There are some differences. Shinbo definitely cut off moments which give hints to different character interpretation. It is not solid facts, there is a place to different point of view but still...
For example the scene in Neko White where Hanekawa proudly thinks "UNLIKE Araragi and Senjougahara I have friends!" only to realize that she hasn't such friends to stay at their home (yeah yeah, she just didn't want to disturb these "friends") and turns out that Hitagi and Araragi are her only real friends... this scene is not so important but it was cut.
Or Oshino's accusatory speech about Hanekawa's faults in Neko Black was twice shorter in the anime. And other things like "sometimes trying your best is the sin". Nisio realy likes this stuff, but Shinbo not so much as it seems.

I hope I was able to explain what I mean with my poor english O_o

And yeah, sisters are tied to Hanekawa and have a grudge toward Hitagi. I wonder how she was able to establish relationship with them. If I remember correctly, when Araragi tryed to introduce her to his sisters, he said that sisters want to kill her... But it seems Nisio would never reveals "Gahara-Summit" to us. That damn noodle incident....

[Altima of the Gates]

For example the scene in Neko White where Hanekawa proudly thinks "UNLIKE Araragi and Senjougahara I have friends!" only to realize that she hasn't such friends to stay at their home (yeah yeah, she just didn't want to disturb these "friends") and turns out that Hitagi and Araragi are her only real friends... this scene is not so important but it was cut.
Or Oshino's accusatory speech about Hanekawa's faults in Neko Black was twice shorter in the anime. And other things like "sometimes trying your best is the sin". Nisio realy likes this stuff, but Shinbo not so much as it seems.

I don't remember reading that part tbh. Though she did have friends who visited her house, but she explains in the novel what happened with them (they became repulsed by her living situation and distanced themselves) the thing about her was that "friends" were really more like she is the one that keeps people at a distance because of said reasoning. I've always had a bone to pick on Oshino's evaluation of her since Kizu, since some of it was decidedly not neutral, contrary to his stance on balance, but that would make me text wall quite a bit.

Though yeah, a lot of stuff was missing in the anime, that does shed more light on character points (a lot of what I just noted was not in the anime either, providing a counterpoint). Shinbo cut a lot of what were positive aspects/analyses of her character as well.

And yeah, sisters are tied to Hanekawa and have a grudge toward Hitagi. I wonder how she was able to establish relationship with them. If I remember correctly, when Araragi tryed to introduce her to his sisters, he said that sisters want to kill her... But it seems Nisio would never reveals "Gahara-Summit" to us. That damn noodle incident....

It's probably something he would save for the commentaries. Nisio likes to stick extra stuff in places.

[mugimugi]

You could say that Araragi's relationship with Hanekawa isn't just...



..black or white.



Anyway, it think it's not that confusing it's just that Neko Black was really awkwardly handled and phrased. Especially when Araragi leaves with the reason "cuz she's hot".
If you look back and take now everything we learned about Araragi into consideration, he was done with relationships after the Sodachi thing. But then Kizu happened and Hanekawa voluntarily helped him for "no" reason. Hence why he constantly empathized how she saved him even though he was actually the one literally saving her life back then.
He admired that selfishness and was really grateful for that friend during that "nightmare" period, but with the Neko Black incident, he realized that there was something wrong with exactly that behavior of hers. Just that perfect behavior that seemed to be toxic as well. If you put yourself into that position and would have a friend like that then you would probably love and hate that aspect of her as well. It's admirable but also annoying...

Though they have some of the same reasons why they initially liked each other, which was Hanekawa's physical appearance and reputation in Araragi's case, and we found out that something similar was the case for Hanekawa's initial interest in Koyomi. He was that magical being, a vampire. But she fell in love with him, while he "just" thinks she's that nice and adorable girl and a good friend (I think he knew since Neko Black that she was in love with him).

Also Hitagi entered and conquered Araragi before they even had a chance to further developed their relationship. Which lead to Tsubasa Cat and Tiger later, but it was a one sided problem since Araragi already scored with someone else. The time frame between Kizu and Bake is rather short, and Hitagi basically asked a stranger to become her boyfriend.

>Not really, Araragi goes on and on about "his" Hanekawa even after Neko White chronologically.

I think what is really important with this series is to understand semantics and the character's personality. In this case, Araragi's behavior and wording has always been pretty laid back and be full of shenanigans. But from context and as a literary aspect, he and the author do that to amuse their opponents and the reader. I can't explain it properly though.
But this was also a pretty big problem for people when Koimonogatari aired. They didn't really understand Kaiki nor Hitagi which is why a lot of people where upset about certain implications in that arc. Though in that case, it was done deliberatively to upset or confuse people I assume.

But understanding the material is a "problem" not just for the anime only viewers but especially for those who have to rely on the subs. This is also a little problem with the novels but people who decide translating them are usually big fans of the series and understand the contents itself, like themes, tone, personalities, references ect. and not just the Japanese language. Which isn't something I can say about most anime subs for Monogatari.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by mugimugi

Hence why he constantly empathized how she saved him even though he was actually the one literally saving her life back then.

That's more like the Japanese culture of debt of honour.

Though he has some of the same reason why he initially liked her, which was her physical appearance

She was down to earth despite being the smartest in the school.

It helps that she secretly has a perfect body despite being the nerdy type of character, but Araragi was thinking mostly about her panties at first.

and we found out that something similar was the case for Hanekawa's initial interest in Koyomi. He was that magical being, a vampire.

She wanted to become his friend even before he was a vampire.

Anyway, admittedly it is hard to understand why Araragi didn't date Hanekawa. Much like in the real world, it's just the kind of thing that simply happens.

But this was also a pretty big problem for people when Koimonogatari aired. They didn't really understand Kaiki nor Hitagi which is why a lot of people where upset about certain implications in that arc. Though in that case, it was done deliberatively to upset or confuse people I assume.

I don't think that's really the case, considering also the fact that Hitagi barely appears in the novels. In fact I am baffled by the dimension of her fanbase compared to her overall presence in the story.

Hitagi is simply difficult to write properly in a story. She seems to have no particular flaw to exploit, so the only thing connecting her to the overall picture is her connection with Kaiki.

Yes, Kaiki was her lover, but the two probably never even kissed or even held hands together. It was all a thing in their heads made overdramatic for entertainment purpose.

Did Nisio do it to upset people? I think the whole NTR angle didn't even consciously cross his mind. It's a cliché. The past of a woman? Another man that changed her and made her what she is. That's all there is to it. It's the simplest thing to write, and with the Japanese style of LN writing it comes automatic to add a new character to keep the story going. The authors know fans want their heroines virginal, and they write them like that if you mind the wording, but the more they talk about a heroine the more it becomes natural to add a new character with a dramatic connection with the heroine, so it tends to turn out like that.

The way the fandom takes it would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

[mugimugi]

I didn't mean to say that the things I listed were the only reason why they initially connected but the ones that were mostly pointed out to us. I mentioned those to make their situation more relatable which was the point of my post.

If you meant to say that he only mentioned how much he owes her because of the cultural thing then I have to disagree. Nowhere in the entires is something rooted in such a behaviour in a blatant way, and even at the beginnings of Kizu it was being implied how antisocial Koyomi was due to a previous incident and how much he nightmarish that whole Kizu event was. So him empathizing on Hanekawa's help is clearly connected to his personal state of mind and how important it was to him, especially considering that this is what one of the show's core theme is all about.

About Koi, I just have a different take on the arc which made much more sense to me. I've stopped reading the book because the anime aired but I don't think that really matters. http://www.ganbaranai.me/2014/09/koi...aiki-ship.html
Also I don't remember every point or piece of information of the past 5 years of Monogatari (I started with the Bake anime), so nothing like that should be taken as "I know everything and this is the truth about muh favorite anime".
I don't know everything, I just kn-... dammit.

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by mugimugi

If you meant to say that he only mentioned how much he owes her because of the cultural thing then I have to disagree. Nowhere in the entires is something rooted in such a behaviour in a blatant way, and even at the beginnings of Kizu it was being implied how antisocial Koyomi was due to a previous incident and how much he nightmarish that whole Kizu event was. So him empathizing on Hanekawa's help is clearly connected to his personal state of mind and how important it was to him, especially considering that this is what one of the show's core theme is all about.

No no, it's what passes as proper Japanese behaviour, and Koyomi being a "hero" can't ignore etiquette. It's ingrained even in the language, for example 恩師 is your former teacher (literally "teacher you are indebted to").

Again, in a way this was possibly overdramatized, but it's real, like the culture of humility.

[mugimugi]

I know what you mean. I don't completely agree but when I think about it, it really doesn't make a difference.
But I just don't believe that Nisio would incorporate it like that just for the sake of displaying Araragi's proper etiquette (which is rather questionable to be honest) especially since the series enjoys way more literary freedom than others. There isn't really any behavior like that shown like the way it was done in this case in the rest of the series and the cause and effect of it is rather obvious plot wise. If Araragi would tell Hanekawa how grateful he was just for proper etiquette than it would be done once during converation (or maybe between him and the reader) but not in such a stand-out way, but he doesn't. He tells us multiple times and empathizes on it and Hanekawa. And I believe Nisio himself as an author would be able to distance himself enough from feeling the need to display it as just a cultural thing and not feel forced to mention it multiple times but just for this one case. He does it because it's relevant and refers to their relationship (well actually it was done for foreshadowing). Maybe partially to give a reasoning as to why Araragi's does it, to add on his personality but the actual reason why it's done is obvious.
But Araragi, the character, feeling the need to say it and the reason why he says it could be just two different things that combined resulted in what we got.
Nisio's intention with it should be clear though.