Fate/stay night UBW TV - Anime Spoilers, Speculation & Source Comparison

[Rev Okkin]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

- A reasonable Sakura fan always understands that UBW doesn't include Sakura. Unless he is...

- After watching HF movie(s), new viewers will have the full understanding of the story. Just like VN readers have to read all 3 routes to understand the story fully.

-

-A reasonable fan can just watch the anime adaptations because adaptations are meant to recreate the story without having to rely on the source material too much. In other words, a reasonable fan of Sakura can be one who just watched FZ or ufoUBW without having to read the VN.

-There should be a period between UBW last episode and HF (first) movie. There has to be a hook at the end to get hype and not make some viewers think of the Sakura plottwist as something made up to make more Fate adaptations.

-Don't look at me like that. I enjoy well executed tragedies the most and I consider Fate/Zero and Fate/Stay Night as one. I need my tragedies at the end.

-Also if they do a Saber crying or looking lonesome on the bloody hill, it can be a segway to a Fate route rewrite by Nasu pleasing Saber fans and other FSN fans as it is rewritten better (Nasu himself said he can write it better now) and more bombastic action.

[HtwoN]

- In that case, they always have HF movie(s) to look forward to.

Same question: How could you calm non-VN-reader Saber fans down in HF? And Gil fans too?

Answer: You can't satisfy everyone.

- As I said before, UBW is a standalone. HF is not its sequel, so there isn't any need to link them up. UBW has to end as it does in the VN.

- Your personal taste so I have no comment.

[Rev Okkin]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

Same question: how could you calm non-VN reader Saber fans down in HF? And Gil fans too?

Answer: You can't satisfy everyone.

- As I said before, UBW is a standalone. HF is not its sequel, so there isn't any need to link them up. UBW has to end as it does in the VN.

Change satisfy with save and there's the flaw in the ideal.
FSN operates Higurashi-esque (minus someone in story who knows what's going on) but on a larger scale. If something is unresolved intentionally rather than because of shoddy writing, there has to be a dangling thread that says, "Oops, there's more! Go grab it and experience more!"
And as such leads to my Sakura scene proposal which is natural progression, an intentional thread for audience to grab and drag them to HF and shows in all its brutal (beautiful) glory the flaw in Shirou's ideal at the end of UBW.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by Rev Okkin

Change satisfy with save and there's the flaw in the ideal.
FSN operates Higurashi-esque (minus someone in story who knows what's going on) but on a larger scale. If something is unresolved intentionally rather than because of shoddy writing, there has to be a dangling thread that says, "Oops, there's more! Go grab it and experience more!"
And as such leads to my Sakura scene proposal which is natural progression, an intentional thread for audience to grab and drag them to HF and shows in all its brutal (beautiful) glory the flaw in Shirou's ideal at the end of UBW.

Well, since you haven't read UBW ending yet, I can't show you how will your scene destroy the ending... So let's end it here...

Btw, it's not a natural progression, as HF is not a sequel, remember that... Even in the VN, there is no blatant linking like that, everything is implied.

And the last thing we need is Ufotable ruining UBW route like DEEN did with Fate. Sakura fans are the minority, they have to deal with it.

[Rev Okkin]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

Well, since you haven't read UBW ending yet, I can't show you how will your scene destroys the ending... So let's end it here...

Btw, it's not a natural progression, as HF is not a sequel, remember that... Even in the VN, there is no blatant linking like that, everything is implied.

I'll concede and perform tactical retreat for now.
If ufotable can perform more subtle forshadowing without it being too much (they've done her meeting with Gil, "wound" on her hand, abuse of Shinji), then I'll admit defeat there and continue to praise Type-MoonXufotable as my OTP and continue to buy their high quality offspring. (I already got FZ and I'm saving money for KnK and FSN [UBW])

[Dengar]

There are no unresolved issues with the matous because UBW does not go into the matous.

[TwilightsCall]

Originally Posted by Rev Okkin

Guys about Invisible Air piercing through God Hand, Beast's Lair people got an explanation other than headcanons and ufotable messing up.



Pretty plausible I should say other than the headcanon I got.

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse by bringing this up, but Invisible Air is only Rank C, so theoretically even if God Hand was only blocking "under B," it would still be blocking SA.

Theoretically it explains the issue they were talking about in the quote (how can Saber hurt Berserker with only B Rank strength), but that was already a non-issue since she was using an A++ Rank sword.

[Amarantine]

Originally Posted by Dengar

There are no unresolved issues with the matous because UBW does not go into the matous.

Exactly. UBW closes most of the plot threads it opens, and the Matou situation was never a relevant plot thread in UBW.

And the ending should be focused on the main characters of the route. Those were Shirou, Archer and Rin. Having the final scene of UBW be about Sakura, who drops out of the face of the story as early as day 6, would just be nonsensical. UBW is not about Sakura in the slightest. It's about Shirou and Archer and the ideal they pursue, which is why the final scene consists of Archer attaining release and catharsis after years and years of suffering and regret as he finally accepts himself and his choice once again. Cutting to a random scene of Sakura suffering afterwards would be completely counterproductive and would just ruin the intended tone of the ending. Especially since, as HtwoN said, HF is not a sequel, so it wouldn't do anything to relieve the circumstances of the Sakura in UBW's continuity.

FSN is not a tragedy. In fact, it's the story that redeems the tragedy that Zero was. They're not going to do an out-of-place grimdark ending just for the sake of showing that not everyone was saved in every route. If they wanted to do that, they could've cut to the half-dead orphans in Kotomine's basement at the end of every route. Then it'd really be clear you can't save everyone. But thankfully they didn't do that, because it would make no sense.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

They can reveal Rin and Sakura relationship, but they will not touch Sakura's story. Why? Read the bolded lines above.

No, they're not going to go into massive detail about it, but that doesn't mean it won't be dealt with somehow.

That's a wrong idea about magi. Most magi are bad, but not all of them.

You're missing the point. Not all magi are bad, no, but magi as a group are bad, and their entire basic ideal is bad.

Waver and Rin in fact will change the world of magi. And you know which event I am talking about.

I don't think that honestly changes much of anything in the long term. It just ends the Grail Wars.

Besides, after UBW, Rin has other main objective in her life: helping a twisted person love himself. I could say this is more important for her than becoming a mage.

I'm not the one who said it was about her becoming a magus, you know....

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

Sakura's situation is now known thanks to the fact Zero spoiled it all for us (well, for non-VN-readers). It adds a dynamic to the situation that was not present in the VN, and with Nasu working with them on the script, its a legitimate question whether or not they will alter the story to include Sakura in a bigger role, or to at the very least to show that her situation has not been resolved.

Exactly. They can't simply pretend it is not there any more, because it is shown in Zero. And, the way they've been handling Sakura and Rin so far makes it pretty clear they're not even trying to cover it up.

Originally Posted by Rev Okkin

They won't include Sakura in a bigger role as she sort of represents the "people a superhero don't see thus aren't saved" which helps with the overarching theme in UBW.

Except, no, because it is going to come back and bite them in the ass at some point.

Frankly, I said this a month or so ago, but the most they can do with Sakura is this:

UBW last episode -> credit rolls -> sound of worms -> Sakura says something regarding Rin and Shirou (heck, even just have her say their names) -> dramatic pan out from her in the worm pit mirroring how it was first shown in FZ Episode 1
Then go ufoFSN PV1 and show the second PV for Heaven's Feel movie(s) with some animations and CG symbollizing/foreshadowing certain events in HF (ie Black liquid drops into Shirou's CS and the red lining turning black for Saber Alter)

I doubt they'll do that, honestly. That would completely wreck the nature of the UBW ending. If they're going to do anything negative regarding Sakura's situation, it will be before that point, anything they show as part of the ending will be something positive, in order to fit with the general theme.

Originally Posted by HtwoN

I think it's good if they anime an original scene in which Rin says good bye to Sakura before going to London though. Sakura can tell Rin that she will try her best, now that Shinji has changed and promised to protect her. Her future will be left to the imagination of the viewers, just like Saber and Archer's situations in HF.

No, that would be horrible, honestly. It's just basically saying "yeah, tough shit Sakura, now go back to the worm pit to die".

Originally Posted by Rev Okkin

Then how else are we gonna calm the Sakura fans down?

Erm, by not showing something that we will hate and which also ruins the ending of the route?

Originally Posted by Dengar

There are no unresolved issues with the matous because UBW does not go into the matous.

Zero does, and Zero is something people watching UBW will likely have seen.

Originally Posted by Amarantine

And the ending should be focused on the main characters of the route. Those were Shirou, Archer and Rin.

And, Sakura is Rin's sister and a close friend of Shirou. She does matter.

Cutting to a random scene of Sakura suffering afterwards would be completely counterproductive and would just ruin the intended tone of the ending. Especially since, as HtwoN said, HF is not a sequel, so it wouldn't do anything to relieve the circumstances of the Sakura in UBW's continuity.

Yeah, agreed. Sakura getting saved in HF doesn't make the UBW ending any less shitty. Personally, I think that, absent of any Sakura-related stuff, it's a shitty depressing ending that is going to horribly backfire anyway, and I think that will be noticed by anyone who knows of Zero, but they're certainly not going to draw attention to that.

[Amarantine]

The thing is, if they're going to cater to people coming in from Zero like that, then there's more than the Matous' unresolved issues to worry about. There's also the Holy Grail's true form, Illya's fate and her relation to Shirou, Kirei's condition and his desire to bring about the birth of Angra Mainyu in order to find his answer, Gilgamesh's fascination with Saber... these are all plot threads (of varying importance) that were left dangling at the end of Fate/Zero as well, but none of them are really touched upon much less resolved in UBW either. And I don't think they can keep the UBW narrative intact if they go out of their way to have those issues resolved in it as well. They would need to rewrite the story way too much. And I don't see why they would try to do so either when they're already going to be doing HF, which deals with most of the stuff that was ignored in UBW.

Will Zero anime-only viewers find it weird that Sakura's situation was ignored and that Zouken didn't appear at all in the current TV series? Sure, just like they'll find it weird that Illya died a miserable death without Shirou ever finding out about their relation, that Kirei, after all his development in Zero, barely did anything here and just died anti-climatically without his issues that were left over from Zero ever being touched upon, that they never really went into or bothered to explain just why the Grail is corrupt and evil, etc. So really, Zero anime-only viewers are going to be confused and left wanting more in so many different ways that there's not much ufotable can do but point them to the HF movie(s) in order to get closure for all those plot threads and characters whose situations weren't properly dealt with in UBW.

[Fellen]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

Yeah, UBW ending is shitty? How about HF ending? Do Saber, Archer, and Illya get anything? Do they get saved? Your super biased assumption amuses me.

Now I may or may not agree with you or Cherry_Lover (don't want any part in the argument) but i do think using Illya as an example that HF's ending is not good while defending UBW's isn't a good idea. Made me giggle when read it.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by Fellen

Now I may or may not agree with you or Cherry_Lover (don't want any part in the argument) but i do think using Illya as an example that HF's ending is not good while defending UBW's isn't a good idea. Made me giggle when read it.

I feel like it's not a proper ending for her. She has to sacrify again after so much she has been through. UBW doesn't give her a proper ending either, but I accept that because I know that one route cannot solve everyone's problems. I accept HF ending too, just this guy annoyed me, a lot.

But ok, to be more objective, I will fix my arguments.

[Cherry_Lover]

Originally Posted by Amarantine

The thing is, if they're going to cater to people coming in from Zero like that, then there's more than the Matous' unresolved issues to worry about. There's also the Holy Grail's true form, Illya's fate and her relation to Shirou, Kirei's condition and his desire to bring about the birth of Angra Mainyu in order to find his answer, Gilgamesh's fascination with Saber... these are all plot threads (of varying importance) that were left dangling at the end of Fate/Zero as well, but none of them are really touched upon much less resolved in UBW either. And I don't think they can keep the UBW narrative intact if they go out of their way to have those issues resolved in it as well. They would need to rewrite the story way too much. And I don't see why they would try to do so either when they're already going to be doing HF, which deals with most of the stuff that was ignored in UBW.

Will Zero anime-only viewers find it weird that Sakura's situation was ignored and that Zouken didn't appear at all in the current TV series? Sure, just like they'll find it weird that Illya died a miserable death without Shirou ever finding out about their relation, that Kirei, after all his development in Zero, barely did anything here and just died anti-climatically without his issues that were left over from Zero ever being touched upon, that they never really went into or bothered to explain just why the Grail is corrupt and evil, etc. So really, Zero anime-only viewers are going to be confused and left wanting more in so many different ways that there's not much ufotable can do but point them to the HF movie(s) in order to get closure for all those plot threads and characters whose situations weren't properly dealt with in UBW.

Well, yes, this is somewhat true. However, UBW is played as "Rin's route", and the ending is played as Rin's happy ending. It's difficult to really buy that when you know about her relationship to Sakura and what Sakura is going through.

And, HF doesn't deal with the situation in UBW. It's a different route. Saving Sakura in HF doesn't change the fact that she's not saved in UBW, so it is not a good substitute from that viewpoint.

Yeah, UBW ending is shitty? How about HF ending? Do Saber and Archer get anything? Do they get saved? Your super biased assumption amuses me.

Saber and Archer aren't Rin's sister, or Shirou's close friend. And, they were summoned into the war with the expectation of dying. It's hardly surprising that they do so in the end.

[GreyZone]

Stop with that masked Holy Shipping War already...


All this speculation until now always ended with EVERYONE being wrong. I mean who actually did predict that ufo would make UBW and HF of all things? I mostly saw people speculating that it will be Fate route again and an equal amount of people thinking that it will be Heaven's Feel... the amount of people thinking that all routes will be adapted mostly admitted themselves that that will "probably not happen and is mostly wishful thinking". The amount of people predicting an UBW adaption was also low, mainly due the whole "Shirou still has all command seals in the church".

But I really cannot remember anyone predicting that we will get "UBW and HF". Do you see now how pointless this whole argument is about who will be right and who will be wrong? In the end probably everyone will be wrong again and these discussions will look silly when looking at them later.

[Nayrael]

Originally Posted by HtboN's sig

- More information about Shinji's past - confirmed

When was this confirmed?

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by Nayrael

When was this confirmed?

Basically after episode 3, they said that Shinji will appear more than in the VN, along with Illya and Taiga. Also, they said that the original scenes are all Nasu's idea.

Should I fix it a little?

Hmm, I will change "past" to "motivation". His past is to give him a motivation after all.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

Basically after episode 3, they said that Shinji will appear more than in the VN, along with Illya and Taiga. Also, they said that the original scenes are all Nasu's idea.

Should I fix it a little?

Hmm, I will change "past" to "motivation". His past is to give him a motivation after all.

Even that is not "confirmed" though. Him "having more screentime" could as well amount to shoving in a fight like in Fate route somehow. We do not know yet.

[HtwoN]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Even that is not "confirmed" though. Him "having more screentime" could as well amount to shoving in a fight like in Fate route somehow. We do not know yet.

Hmm, I will change the status to "doubtful" then.

However, I think expanding on his motivation are the best possibility. In the VN, we got some of that already. This will help his character become deeper. He is an asshole but he is an important character.

Btw, screw anyone who said that taiga is not important.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

Hmm, I will change the status to "doubtful" then.

However, I think expanding on his motivation are the best possibility. In the VN, we got some of that already. This will help his character become deeper. He is an asshole but he is an important character.

For me Shinji felt like someone who was just there to show that there is an "even worse" Master than Shirou.

Though I think it's ironic how in the 5th war (excluding HF) only Rin and illya really were capable magi. Shirou is really bad as a magus (but a genius as a "magic user"), Shinji and Kuzuki aren't even Magi at all (though Kuzuki compensates that with Assassin skills) and Kirei also only has very limited capabilities as a Magus (his "doctor"-like ability). Bazett (what I know about her from wiki) was a very strong Magus that would have had a high chance to win the 5th war if Kirei didn't backstab her. We don't even know how Caster's Master looks, so we have no idea if he was any good as a Magus, or simply Serial-Killer-kun 2.0, that somehow summoned Caster.

But really, I can understand that this situation may cause frustration and an inferiority complex for Shinji. He wanted to "show everyone" that he is a capable person even without magic abilities himself, but he had neither the body, nor the brain for that, i.e. he did not really do anything to compensate for his lack of magic and his Grandpa was not really someone who helped him much in that regard... rather he led him into the worst possible path.

[chaos_alfa]

Originally Posted by HtwoN

Hmm, I will change the status to "doubtful" then.

However, I think expanding on his motivation are the best possibility. In the VN, we got some of that already. This will help his character become deeper. He is an asshole but he is an important character.

Btw, screw anyone who said that taiga is not important.

I think it will be difficult to show much of Shinji's past. An important aspect of it is how Sakura took his place as the heir of the Matou family. It they want to show his motivation they will have to reveal what is going on with Sakura. I don't think Ufotable wants to do that. They will probably keep that for the Heaven's Feel movie(s).