Psycho-Pass 2 - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[jwai]

Originally Posted by Kanon

I don't get why Kamui's experiment was a success since Aoyanagi wasn't judged as an inspector but as a random number. We still have no idea whether dominators stay locked if an identified inspector get a high CC.

I just saw episode 4, and at the end, it appears that Kamui planned the whole thing to find out if Inspectors could be targeted by the Dominator. He succeeded in luring an Inspector into a trap and got her CC high enough to find out without anyone bar Akane figuring out his presence or role in the entire debacle.

As unpopular a stance as it might seem at the moment, I don't hate Mika too much for her reluctance to act. Exercising initiative doesn't appear to be something that is actively encouraged or rewarded by Sibyl, and being the new kid on the team, I don't think rocking the boat by going against orders is something that ranks highly in her mind. It's crap for all concerned, but that's centralised command and bureaucracy for you. Also consider that Asian culture values deference to authority differently from the West.

I call shenanigans on Kasei calling Division 3 in so quickly to destroy everything that could have suggested that something is amiss.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by jwai

As unpopular a stance as it might seem at the moment, I don't hate Mika too much for her reluctance to act. Exercising initiative doesn't appear to be something that is actively encouraged or rewarded by Sibyl, and being the new kid on the team, I don't think rocking the boat by going against orders is something that ranks highly in her mind. It's crap for all concerned, but that's centralised command and bureaucracy for you. Also consider that Asian culture values deference to authority differently from the West.

Then she could use more of that "new kid deference" when talking to Akane.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I think I see what you're saying, karice67.

With that in mind, let me play devil's advocate for Sybil for a bit.

*snip*

I actually agree with what you are saying implying here, but I think you misunderstand my point.

You and Kanon were both arguing that (paraphrasing) 'it's somewhat unbelievable that Sibyl is still in power with all the recent screw-ups, given what we've been shown'. My own point is that I find it quite believable, because I think of it as being what happens when you take modern/contemporary Japanese society to the logical extreme.

In other words, the point I disagree with Kanon (and yourself) on is on just how believable it is that Sibyl is still in power. My opinion/interpretation of this comes from what I understand about Japanese society today (i.e. the context that I'm aware of) - YMMV, and that's fine by me.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by jwai

Exercising initiative doesn't appear to be something that is actively encouraged or rewarded by Sibyl.

Hm... I'd say... that's not exactly true... or untrue...

Akane is given a lot of leeway and Sibyl put a lot of faith in her unconventional decisions. Despite the fact that it is no secret that she hates the system and what it stands for.

But yeah they wouldn't encourage it from any old person. Especally not someone like that Mika girl.

[azarhal]

This was a brutal episode.

I'm now expecting Kamui to try to use a Dominator on Akane and failing miserably...

[atua]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Akane is given a lot of leeway and Sibyl put a lot of faith in her unconventional decisions. Despite the fact that it is no secret that she hates the system and what it stands for.

Akane is the outlier here, and shouldn't been seen as any sort of guide for the norm. She's the one in a hundred million girl, that Sibyl entrusted with its secret. I doubt more than a handful of such people exist in the whole country, and she may well be the only one.

Originally Posted by azarhal

I'm now expecting Kamui to try to use a Dominator on Akane and failing miserably...

He isn't authorised to use a Dominator. But I do expect he'll have Shisui try for him, at some point. He went to a lot of trouble to capture her alive, probably to turn her into his double agent.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Akane is given a lot of leeway and Sibyl put a lot of faith in her unconventional decisions. Despite the fact that it is no secret that she hates the system and what it stands for.

Pretty sure that's more because her CC doesn't get screwed by the way she thinks. If she weren't working with Sibyl, I'm 100% certain they'd try to harvest her brain for their think tank.

[Dengar]

I'm not sure about that, although I can't rule it out either. All I was trying to say that there was an exception to the rule.

Btw, it's not really "Her CC doesn't get screwed by the way she thinks" and more "She doesn't think in a way that would screw her CC".

[atua]

Originally Posted by GDB

Pretty sure that's more because her CC doesn't get screwed by the way she thinks. If she weren't working with Sibyl, I'm 100% certain they'd try to harvest her brain for their think tank.

Yeah, I think Akane's criminal asymptomatic too, in the sense that her PP reading doesn't correlate with her thinking and behaviour in the conventional way. There's no definitive proof though, until she engages in criminal or anti-Sibyl activities.

[Dengar]

She's not criminally asymptomatic though. She doesn't actually do anything criminal. Nor does she have any desire to.

She's just your regular run-of-the-mill woman who doesn't get traumatized easily.

A criminally asymptomatic person retains a clear hue despite their criminal tendencies. It's the "criminal" part of the word.

Akane's remains clear because she lacks them.

[atua]

Originally Posted by Dengar

She's not criminally asymptomatic though. She doesn't actually do anything criminal. Nor does she have any desire to.

She's just your regular run-of-the-mill woman who doesn't get traumatized easily.

A criminally asymptomatic person retains a clear hue despite their criminal tendencies. It's the "criminal" part of the word.

Akane's remains clear because she lacks them.

Read that again. I said "in the sense that her PP reading doesn't correlate with her thinking and behaviour in the conventional way". There isn't an official term for someone whose PP doesn't match their non criminal actions. Even thinking about rebelling or acting out against Sibyl can raise a PP.

[Dengar]

But her Psycho-Pass does match her actions. O_o She is a law abiding citizen who does everything within her capabilities to maintain order. This has not changed. Even the revelation of that world's awful truth did nothing to change her. The whole "thinking of rebelling against Sibyl can raise your crime coefficient" thing is nice and all but subject to two mistakes. First, this isn't about "disliking Sibyl", this is about "thinking of doing something criminal", which is something that obviously raises your CC. The second mistake is related: Akane actually isn't thinking of rebelling against Sibyl in the first place, so naturally her CC would not rise.

[Triple_R]

Akane hasn't done anything that's criminal, at least not in the context of her own society. She's gone against protocol a few times, but it was in the interests of saving lives, and those times tended to work out well for her and in fact save lives.

So there's no particular reason for Akane to have a high CC or a bad hue. Well, except for the inherent stress of her position, but I guess when it comes to that she just has better mental stability than a lot other Inspectors/former Inspectors had.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Dengar

But her Psycho-Pass does match her actions. O_o She is a law abiding citizen who does everything within her capabilities to maintain order. This has not changed. Even the revelation of that world's awful truth did nothing to change her. The whole "thinking of rebelling against Sibyl can raise your crime coefficient" thing is nice and all but subject to two mistakes. First, this isn't about "disliking Sibyl", this is about "thinking of doing something criminal", which is something that obviously raises your CC. The second mistake is related: Akane actually isn't thinking of rebelling against Sibyl in the first place, so naturally her CC would not rise.

Everyone who talked to Prof Saiga ended up with a clouded hue...everyone except Akane. Even Prof Saiga got a clouded hue and he doesn't have any criminal intent, he's just going against the Sibyl way of thinking.

[Dengar]

They got a clouded hue because criminal psychology by definition makes you think like a criminal. Their inability to keep those thoughts from becoming part of their personality caused their CC to rise. (And nowhere was it said that each of his students became a latent criminal, just that their CC's went up.) Akane just has the (very rare) ability to stay true to herself despite everything.

Again, it's not just her Psycho-Pass that remains stable. She herself remains stable.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Akane hasn't done anything that's criminal, at least not in the context of her own society. She's gone against protocol a few times, but it was in the interests of saving lives, and those times tended to work out well for her and in fact save lives.

So there's no particular reason for Akane to have a high CC or a bad hue. Well, except for the inherent stress of her position, but I guess when it comes to that she just has better mental stability than a lot other Inspectors/former Inspectors had.

Masaoka implied in season 1 that his CC skyrocketed because he detested Sibyl, and as such was basically labeled "not needed". In fact, season 1 showed pretty well with Yayoi as well that you don't need criminal intent to increase your CC, and just being anti-Sibyl will do it.

And Akane is clearly anti-Sibyl.

Originally Posted by azarhal

Everyone who talked to Prof Saiga ended up with a clouded hue...everyone except Akane. Even Prof Saiga got a clouded hue and he doesn't have any criminal intent, he's just going against the Sibyl way of thinking.

He helped the renegade Kougami at the end of season 1, which caused his CC to increase to detainable levels.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by GDB

Masaoka implied in season 1 that his CC skyrocketed because he detested Sibyl, and as such was basically labeled "not needed". In fact, season 1 showed pretty well with Yayoi as well that you don't need criminal intent to increase your CC, and just being anti-Sibyl will do it.

I disagree. I don't think that simply being anti-Sibyl is enough to raise CC.

I think that CC is a catch-all measurement of a variety of things, including mental stability and guilt and possibly certain psychological problems. Masaoka and Yayoi may simply have psychological issues that raised their CC - psychological issues that Akane doesn't have.

Part of my point is that Akane doesn't have much reason to feel guilty because she has never done anything criminal. Aside from the simple stress of her job/career position, why should Akane have a high CC?

Long story short, I don't see anything strange about her low CC. It speaks to her exceptional mental stability, but I'd be leery of taking it much farther than that. I certainly don't think she should be lumped in with folks like Makishima, if that's where this line of discussion is heading.

He helped the renegade Kougami at the end of season 1, which caused his CC to increase to detainable levels.

Basically right. I recall Saiga implying that he felt guilty about helping Kougami kill another human being (i.e. Makishima).

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by GDB

Masaoka implied in season 1 that his CC skyrocketed because he detested Sibyl, and as such was basically labeled "not needed".

That has little to do with "not needed" and more to do with the fact that his CC went up after he started thinking these things.

Originally Posted by GDB

In fact, season 1 showed pretty well with Yayoi as well that you don't need criminal intent to increase your CC, and just being anti-Sibyl will do it.

The Psycho-Pass doesn't measure your thoughts or criminal intent, per se. It measures your mental state and propability of wanting to commit some kind of crime at some point in the future. It actually does not mean they have to be plotting to commit a crime right now.

Originally Posted by GDB

And Akane is clearly anti-Sibyl.

She dislikes Sibyl but acknowledges their necessity to maintain order at this point in time.

I apologize if this is a bit hard to understand. This is the part that's kind of hard for me to put into words.


I would like to stress here that I do not argue that Akane is completely normal. I'm merely arguing that she is different from the likes of Makishima and to slap the same label on her just because her hue remains clear is ignoring what the psycho-pass actually means.

[GDiddy]

This episode already beat the body count from last season.

I don't blame Cousin Oliver for being reluctant but goddamn someone needs to teach her manners in working with the Enforcers........

I felt bad for Gino though; he needs a nice woman.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by GDiddy

This episode already beat the body count from last season.

The whole of last season? Sorry but not that many yet. Have you forgotten the riots, the serial killer cases of the first half? Those killed in the second half? This episode was a good start but not the same as the body count of the ENTIRE first season.