The Mary Sue Discussion

[Idealist 99]

Taiki from Digimon Xros War is also a Gary Sue .
He's Athletic and Best at every sport , Gets better grade and smart tactician.

[Marcus H.]

There is a reason why Taiki is supposed to be that way, and it's also the reason why Kamina is badass. He's the constant source of badassery in the series; without him, all the other Chosen Children in Xros would struggle in pushing through their struggles.

[DragoonKain3]

My problem with Mary Sues (in fanfiction) and their equivalent is if they eclipse the original cast. I read fanfiction for more stories about the original characters, so Mary Sues in those stories were annoying as heck.

On the other hand, my opinion on stuff like Mahouka and the like (example, Hagure Yuusha no Esthetica, any title with 'Demon King' in it, etc.) is different. In there, the story IS about an overpowered character going around solving problems left and right. Complaining about stuff like that is like complaining about how the heck Rambo goes against an entire army and lives; them being OP is THE point of the story. If you don't like it, don't watch those kind of series?

I mean, some stories are meant to give you the feeling of dis-empowerment, most often horror stories. For some people, this feeling is THE reason why they like that genre; they like being scared. For others, they dislike it for the very same reason. I don't see why 'Mary Sues' in original fiction, who give the feeling of empowerment, shouldn't be treated the same way. For me, as long as they can make it interesting, that's all that is needed.

[Archaeon]

One OP MC that I enjoy is Alucard from Hellsing. He's really enjoyable to watch unlike Tatsuya that make me feel bored.

[Ugoki]

Mary Sue characters are like those OP MCs in those recent fantasy LNs/WNs like Mushoku Tensei. Being a super special strong snowflake with bitches worshipping him.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

On the other hand, my opinion on stuff like Mahouka and the like (example, Hagure Yuusha no Esthetica, any title with 'Demon King' in it, etc.) is different. In there, the story IS about an overpowered character going around solving problems left and right. Complaining about stuff like that is like complaining about how the heck Rambo goes against an entire army and lives; them being OP is THE point of the story. If you don't like it, don't watch those kind of series?

Doesn't make them good.

Originally Posted by DragoonKain3

My problem with Mary Sues (in fanfiction) and their equivalent is if they eclipse the original cast. I read fanfiction for more stories about the original characters, so Mary Sues in those stories were annoying as heck.

I bet you'll have no problem reading those Naruto fics where he gets some SUPER SPECIAL AWESUMM powers and then proceeds to curbstomp everyone else while getting girls to fall with him left and right.

[Marcus H.]

I mean, some stories are meant to give you the feeling of dis-empowerment, most often horror stories. For some people, this feeling is THE reason why they like that genre; they like being scared. For others, they dislike it for the very same reason. I don't see why 'Mary Sues' in original fiction, who give the feeling of empowerment, shouldn't be treated the same way. For me, as long as they can make it interesting, that's all that is needed.

The problem is Tatsuya lacks the charismatic qualities Kamina, Izayoi and Kuuhaku has to properly pull off the "overpowered MC" persona decently. Some even compared him to James Bond. Excuse them, because James Bond is actually debonair and has the license to get all the ladies, all while feeling the same things humans actually feel.

[Draco Spirit]

Being OP, doesn't necessary result in a Mary Sue to be honest. It's often a case of bland personality, in universe rule breaking and the story just being a case of overcoming challenge after challenge with no struggle.

For example comedy shows can get away with insanely OP character easy... because there power level isn't important, its about the jokes.

Most fighting shows have OP leads (Ichigo of Bleach springs to mind), but they screw up now and again and have to overcome there flaws, and typically there a foe even more OP than they are hanging about. They struggle and eventually win, but you feel every victory is one they had to earn.

You also tend to notice shows with insanely powerful characters like Alucard in Hellsing have viewpoint characters like Seres (of the much argued name) who aren't, to give the story someone who can certainly fail.


The Melancholy Haruhi Suzumiya likely a good example of how to work a character who's basically god tier in power into a story without her becoming Mary Sue.

First she's flawed as heck personality wise, being pretty much the poster girl for Chaotic Neutral... and importantly her flaws are acknowledge in story.

Her powers don't solve the plot, they create it.

The story is written from Kyon point of view, who's trying to manage this impossible powerful girl. If he fails, she might just restart the universe!

[sunchips18]

I don't believe that being a Mary Sue or a Gary Sue is a bad thing. In fact, I find them to be quite refreshing. Seeing a main character completely dominate everything that walks his/her way is quite entertaining in my book. Of course, Gary Sues and Mary Sues usually lack the human factor that allows the viewer to get attached to them. Thus it can be really hard to like them. I'm very empathetic so it's pretty easy for me to find something that I like in almost any character that I see (provided that they aren't a total jerk, but that's a completely different topic). Also, they can be quite boring if done incorrectly.

The only time that I ever get truly annoyed with an over powered character is when they are a villain. Because this usually means that they can only be beaten by some type of Deus Ex Machina. I especially hate it when a villain pulls out some magical ability at the last second just to prove how OP he/she is (Looking at you Aizen). Plus it's hard to root for the heroes when you know that it's practically impossible for them to win. Call me old fashioned, but I really like the whole "good guy always wins" idea.

Of course, my opinions are far from the norm, I think. I think that in order to please the general public, one should avoid creating Gary Sues and Mary Sues. They're one of the more...controversial types of characters.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by sunchips18

I don't believe that being a Mary Sue or a Gary Sue is a bad thing.

Yeah, being a convenient self-insert androgynous bi-gender character is a good thing!

Originally Posted by Ugoki

Mary Sue characters are like those OP MCs in those recent fantasy LNs/WNs like Mushoku Tensei. Being a super special strong snowflake with bitches worshipping him.

While your description matches a number of Narou novels, Mushoku Tensei is most definitely not one of them.
You actually haven't read it, have you? Rudy's journey is filled to the brim with regrets, mistakes and more regrets.
It does not, in any way shape or form, makes you want to insert yourself in his shoes. Dude really has it rough.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by aohige

It does not, in any way shape or form, makes you want to insert yourself in his shoes. Dude really has it rough.

There are a ton of stories that people think the MC is a sue / stu even though they literally go through hell and have it rough. If this is the case, being someone who goes through rough times does not determine whether you are a sue or not.

Or we can go through the other interpretation that everyone is a dumbass and can't agree on a definition of Mary / Gary sue ergo, it's subjective and dependent on person reading / watching.

Here's a popular example..... Bella Swan

[aohige]

Originally Posted by IceHism

There are a ton of stories that people think the MC is a sue / stu even though they literally go through hell and have it rough. If this is the case, being someone who goes through rough times does not determine whether you are a sue or not.

Or we can go through the other interpretation that everyone is a dumbass and can't agree on a definition of Mary / Gary sue ergo, it's subjective and dependent on person reading / watching.

Here's a popular example..... Bella Swan

He's not a sue though. Dude starts out a complete failure, then cheats his way through second childhood.
He then lives a life of regrets, decisions costing him family and loved ones, and tries to make amends to all the mistakes he made in the past life.
At no point does he become a convenient Mary Sue. That's like the furthest thing from the way his character is.

Can you actually read the novel before making these judgement?
I mean, I can name two dozen Mary Sue novels in Narou, but this is one of the furthest from being one.

[IceHism]

Originally Posted by aohige

He's not a sue though. Dude starts out a complete failure, then cheats his way through second childhood.
He then lives a life of regrets, decisions costing him family and loved ones, and tries to make amends to all the mistakes he made in the past life.
At no point does he become a convenient Mary Sue. That's like the furthest thing from the way his character is.

Can you actually read the novel before making these judgement?
I mean, I can name two dozen Mary Sue novels in Narou, but this is one of the furthest from being one.

I'm not talking about mushoku tensei, just the nature of sues in general. Based on most ppl's definition, having a rough life =/= not being a sue.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by IceHism

I'm not talking about mushoku tensei, just the nature of sues in general. Based on most ppl's definition, having a rough life =/= not being a sue.

Well I am though..

If your reply doesn't apply to my case, why selectively quote without the rest of the context?
His rough life wasn't a simple case of victim of circumstance, but rather, combination of situation and his own decisions. For exactly not being a near-perfect person the said Mary Sue trope would shape him into.
I mean, you're being kinda wishy washy and disingenuous there, bud. Don't quote partially if you aren't actually replyin'.

[DevilHighDxD]

I considered Tatsuya not to be a Gary Stu, he just OP to extreme and with a brain of supercomputer. What considered a Gary Stu to me is Kira Yamato and Kio Asuno, their always right and never wrong attitude, complete unrealistic ideals that actually friggin work out due to him at the end, couple with it being consistently forcing it down into others that actually make some infected with the same mindset and being the strongest of their respective show. Kira was bearable but Kio is just...

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by sunchips18

I don't believe that being a Mary Sue or a Gary Sue is a bad thing. In fact, I find them to be quite refreshing. Seeing a main character completely dominate everything that walks his/her way is quite entertaining in my book. Of course, Gary Sues and Mary Sues usually lack the human factor that allows the viewer to get attached to them. Thus it can be really hard to like them. I'm very empathetic so it's pretty easy for me to find something that I like in almost any character that I see (provided that they aren't a total jerk, but that's a completely different topic). Also, they can be quite boring if done incorrectly.

The only time that I ever get truly annoyed with an over powered character is when they are a villain. Because this usually means that they can only be beaten by some type of Deus Ex Machina. I especially hate it when a villain pulls out some magical ability at the last second just to prove how OP he/she is (Looking at you Aizen). Plus it's hard to root for the heroes when you know that it's practically impossible for them to win. Call me old fashioned, but I really like the whole "good guy always wins" idea.

Of course, my opinions are far from the norm, I think. I think that in order to please the general public, one should avoid creating Gary Sues and Mary Sues. They're one of the more...controversial types of characters.

I think that "Gary Stu" isn't quite simply a character that is "overpowered".
After all a "Gary Stu" is just the male version of "Mary Sue" which comes from fanfiction works where "power" is rarely a thing.

"Gary Stu" and "Mary Sue" can be better defined as characters that have qualities such as

-Unreasonably loved by everyone (they are insufferable and yet everyone puts up with their douchbagness and loves them)
-Unreasonably looked up to by everyone (even from their superiors or people that are logically more expert than them. I.E: an university professor deferring to the opinion of his Gary Stu student)
-Unreasonably always right about everything (their logic is completely messed up or they reach conclusions with absolutely no basis and yet somehow they are always right)
-The world revolves around them (their drama is everyone's drama. Everything stops for them. If they sneeze it becomes a national worry.)


Stuff like
-Being the most powerful being in the universe (or close to that)
-Having an unique background (often overly dramatic)
-Being of noble origin or anyway descending from someone important or peculiar
-Having particular skills that nobody else has.

Are all things that are often associated with "Mary-Sue" and "Gary-Stu", but are in fact pretty common with a plethora of liked and famous characters.

They really become "Mary-Sue" and "Gary-Stu" indicators when they are unreasonable. For example there is an explanation for Superman's superpowers, but the Gary-Stu is capable of superhuman feats even when the story maintains that he is a perfectly normal human being, justifying that with some kind of poor excuse (or sometimes not even bothering giving an excuse at all).

[Vocah]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I think that "Gary Stu" isn't quite simply a character that is "overpowered".
After all a "Gary Stu" is just the male version of "Mary Sue" which comes from fanfiction works where "power" is rarely a thing.

"Gary Stu" and "Mary Sue" can be better defined as characters that have qualities such as

-Unreasonably loved by everyone (they are insufferable and yet everyone puts up with their douchbagness and loves them)
-Unreasonably looked up to by everyone (even from their superiors or people that are logically more expert than them. I.E: an university professor deferring to the opinion of his Gary Stu student)
-Unreasonably always right about everything (their logic is completely messed up or they reach conclusions with absolutely no basis and yet somehow they are always right)
-The world revolves around them (their drama is everyone's drama. Everything stops for them. If they sneeze it becomes a national worry.)


Stuff like
-Being the most powerful being in the universe (or close to that)
-Having an unique background (often overly dramatic)
-Being of noble origin or anyway descending from someone important or peculiar
-Having particular skills that nobody else has.

Are all things that are often associated with "Mary-Sue" and "Gary-Stu", but are in fact pretty common with a plethora of liked and famous characters.

They really become "Mary-Sue" and "Gary-Stu" indicators when they are unreasonable. For example there is an explanation for Superman's superpowers, but the Gary-Stu is capable of superhuman feats even when the story maintains that he is a perfectly normal human being, justifying that with some kind of poor excuse (or sometimes not even bothering giving an excuse at all).

Would there be any "Gary Stu/Mary Sue"s left after the bolded part? I don't remember a character that is supposedly a Stu/Sue where the "feats" are totally unexplained.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Vocah

Would there be any "Gary Stu/Mary Sue"s left after the bolded part? I don't remember a character that is supposedly a Stu/Sue where the "feats" are totally unexplained.

Totally unexplained very few I guess, if we are talking about official works, explained with a non convincing or illogical excuse, a lot.

Example: "I can predict with precision all of the bullets' trajectories fired by an automatic rifle simply by following the gunner's eyes even if I am 50 meters away."

Isn't a very convincing explanation.

Whereas "I can predict with precision all of the bullets' trajectories fired by an automatic rifle because I have precognitive powers."

Is at least believable if you accept the existence of superpowers.

[Vocah]

Depends on the context and most likely not for an automatic rifle.
Is this an actual example?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Vocah

Is this an actual example?

Let's not go down that path. Specific cases are irrelevant.

Let's just focus on whether you agree that there are characters that demonstrate abilities that are poorly justified or if you believe that no such thing can possibly exist in any kind of narrative work ever written. Remeber: Mary-Sue is a concept that spawned from fan fictions, not official works and it is strongly associated with the concept of bad writing.

[Vocah]

If it were an actual example it could make sense in context but just from this line...
No, it isn't very convincing.

I'm sure there are characters that demonstrate poorly justified abilities and that they might exist, I just haven't encountered any where I felt that it's the case.