2015-01-18, 14:16 | Link #34782 | |||
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Join Date: Nov 2014
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Hi there.
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Erika got drunk and killed imaginary people and became married to a Battler using her imagination. It's a little bit sad the sealed letter got no attention. Yasu's role in this twilight setup has to be more or less important. |
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2015-01-19, 17:55 | Link #34783 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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Honestly I would have loved a better explanation for Ep 6. No, not just how the logic error worked but how the plot of the mystery was meant to work.
I mean, I can swallow that Erika was the murderer. There are hints that Erika might be a rather paranoid person. She calls herself a detective who was only searching for the proof of her boyfriend’s betrayal but if you check how she describes her searching for proofs… well, it’s a tad too meticulous for being normal. It’ll be actually interesting if her boyfriend in Prime NEVER CHEATED ON HER as her evidence was all circumstantial after all and Bern confirmed things in red using one of those stuffs I call ‘red tricks’ (it’s red but it works only on this gameboard, it’s red but it’s actually not meaning the most obvious thing, it’s red but hey, if you read between the lines it doesn’t really prove what you were thinking it did) but the trauma of being betrayed by him only worsened her paranoia. Also in ep 6 is hinted Erika might have a disturbed personality as she insults the adults, basically claiming they’re idiots and has a fight with Maria. Although they’re apparently minor things, on the gameboard there was no reason for her to act in such a way. And so we get on Rokkenjima and Battler playfully tells her that she might end up killed by the witch. The people pretend to drop dead and Erika, afraid it’s a plan to actually murder her, mistakes the situation and end up murdering everyone to ‘make sure they’re really dead and therefore can’t do her any harm’. Erika can’t trust anyone after all and can believe only red. And here’s where I can buy she would murder people on the gameboard. Of course it can also be that Erika secretly solved the epitaph (we know from ep 5 she can do it) and decided to keep the gold for herself… but this would slightly go against her characterization as in Ep 5 she was described as not interested in the money. What becomes more troublesome buying is how MetaBattler knew that Erika wouldn’t use the detective authority. Erika, after all, had that option and if she had used it she either wasn’t the murderer or Ep 6 wasn’t Knox compliant. Yes, I’m aware that there’s a theory suggesting that Battler purposely created a setting in which a logic error could be created so as to push Beato to solve it and recover her memories but this would mean that not only he devised a plot in which an apparent logic error might be solved if Beatrice were to recover her memory but also had to make sure that Erika won’t do the detective proclamation or either he would have to revise his plot a lot as he should pick up another murderer. Of course it could be that Battler was carrying on two separate plots at the moment. We know that Featherine said he could switch from a plot to another. So if Erika wanted to be the culprit, fine by him. If Erika didn’t want to be the culprit, the culprit could be someone else… let’s say a random name like Kyrie. Yeah, totally random. Okay, let’s say himself as he pinned himself as the culprit in the previous episode also. After all it mattered little to him who was the culprit. What he wanted was to prove he understood Beato’s game and have Erika try to set up a logic error that could be solved by Beato only if she were to remember who she was. Likely he figured Erika would love trap him in a logic error as soon as he heard the name and as soon as Erika didn’t immediately make the detective proclamation he figured this meant she wasn’t going to make it and discharged the other potential culprit. Still, yes, Lambda was right, Battler wasn’t playing chess but poker, basically basing his whole game on guessing which would be the actions from the other parties. If Bern and Erika hadn’t aimed for a logic error or Bern had decided Erika could do the detective proclamation his whole plan would have crumbled before starting. |
2015-01-23, 10:18 | Link #34784 |
Senior Member
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After real life eating me up again (it truly is hard to be out of university...even graduate school gave me so much free time), I had time to do a translation of the two chapters that have come out again since I last posted. The first one is pretty much the same as the VN, just with nice visuals backing it up, but chapter 33...damn is it a good one.
Spoiler for Chapter 33 DEATH:
Spoiler for Chapter 33 RESSURECTION:
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2015-01-23, 21:19 | Link #34786 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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And I guess that this quote: Quote:
In the VN we only have Ange saying: Quote:
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2015-01-23, 23:05 | Link #34787 | ||
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I still think if Ryukishi doesn't have the time to do so, people should group together and do a port back to the VN. It's a real pity too, since it's not like this would have been impossible to do in the VN...it doesn't really rewrite anything, it simply expands. But it does make the characters (especially Ange) so much more likable.
I was basically squeeling with glee when Ange transformed into her witch-form. Quote:
It finally wonderfully mirrors Ange's journey to realization in EP4. Oh...and I absolutely adore the line Quote:
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2015-01-25, 18:12 | Link #34788 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2012
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It really does make the title that much more meaningful. Classic Ryu to either expect us to realise Twilight is also a mix of light and shade and represents the people and the family, OR to retcon it later when he realised it was cool.
I may be a bit slow, as when reading the VN I never really got what Ange gained from reading the one truth, I thought it was something to do with realising that she was the only one who could protect her family. But it is much more satisfying if it is about the fact that she broke from her fantasy, but also realised that she needed to overcome her reality. Speaking of which, do you guys believe her journey of discovery ever really happened? The fact Ange's life/death status centres on what happened after she jumped from the roof, and the line from Bern about how Ange was a witch for a short time from the moment she jumped off the building till the moment she hit the ground, kind of implies to me that Ange just found the book after Eva died, read it, and then had an internal struggle about what to do with her life. |
2015-01-25, 20:10 | Link #34789 |
a.k.a. Akari_House
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Somewhere near Seattle
Age: 54
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I wasn't sure until reading Haguruma's translation (thanks again...so exciting!) of the latest chapters, but now my current theory is that Ange's "death" is what the rest of the world will see, but she lives on in her new identity that we know from the end of the "it was really magic" epilogue. Her "death" mirrors that of Battler's (and maybe Beatrice's?) in that it is real as far as the rest of the world will be concerned.
That said, I'm not sure how much of her journey, if any of it, happened, considering the other events in that part of the story. Of course, I'm totally prepared for something else...we still don't even know for certain which epilogue is the "true" ending. "The sea of fragments is vast..." I'm really looking forward to seeing how the manga concludes things. I have a feeling R07 has some juicy new treats in store for the epilogue as well. Oh, and I was pretty surprised to see some of the new interplay between Bern and Featherine (particularly her own insolence to Featherine). Plus that bit of backstory for Erika's cats could well describe her, too, even if she is a Witch.
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2015-01-27, 11:15 | Link #34791 | |||
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Manga-Ange is much more coherently written, in that she is the end of the line of a lot of people who stood before the same choice as her and gathers enough from the experiences they and she herself made to make an informed and intelligent decision to search for a mixture of both pathes, AND we are actually informed as a reader that this is what happened. Quote:
From my current standpoint I'd say, EP4 was likely what Tohya considered might have happened within the catbox, since she would have "died" to him as well. At least in the time between 1998 and the time where she released Sakutarou's Journey and it probably dawned on the Hachijô's who Kotobuki Yukari was. Quote:
I suppose next month (chapter 34) we'll go up to Ange making the choice in Beatrice's final riddle which will lead her to the door to her future, then the door being closed, Ikuko denying to release the diary and Featherine casting the golden rose into the ocean. I HOPE we also get to the October 6th part and it isn't split into two chapters...since the remaining scenes in the Capital are actually very short. I do wonder whether we will get the Tea Party inbetween chapters, since it technically isn't part of the plot so much this time around...it could actually rather confuse readers into thinking the whole story is over. And I don't want to wait till April to see Kotobuki Yukari and Hachijô Tôya. |
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2015-01-28, 01:12 | Link #34792 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
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Sigh, the manga really feels more appropriate in this part and the one where Ange wakes up after her "suicide"... You know, long ago I thought that people were bashing EP8 for it's message of wanting to keep her family alive in her heart, forgiving them and herself, not giving up on the hope of seeing them again one day. Everything is an illusion, may as well stick to the one you feel that will make you a better person... But now I see it was for the execution.
I just reread that part in the VN and that line where Beato apologized for "throwing those bottles half-jokingly" just feels so wrong. That was only allowed while they were in the happy fragment where the bottles were a game, when B&B were trying to relief her with the knowledge that his family would have wanted that kind of happiness, and it's what they want for her. Here it's... is something that could have well been in the VN even without the existence of Confession of TGW, actually I have a slight issue with Confession for it's implications regarding Tohya's struggle to remember. If he had come into contact with that, the forgeries have no reason to exist since they were made as a way to help him remember, Dawn would lose a great deal of it's purpose in consequence. So that only makes me believe more in the theory of Tohya giving the ideas and Ikuko making the mysteries without giving him the answers, she has been pretty insistent on all the "your reasoning has more value than just the truth" thing, and after proving that he realized everything (Dawn), she thought there was no problem in revealing the Diary anymore. Anyway I got sidetracked, back to the scene... she HAD to confront them after reading the diary, and she HAD to answer for all her guilt. I know that was the original intention but all this refusal to "give the answer sheet" resulted in something so self mocking. Those messages contained her suffering and her desperate attempts to reach out to someone for not having the courage to talk directly. They were charged with indecision and remorse, so using the word Joke it's......... geeeeeeeeeez. It's really the one mandatory change that this story needed, it's impossible for me now to say it would be complete without that revision. Regarding other changes I have more lenient opinions, here's a quick summary: - I was perfectly ok with Willard having a more firm last stand while mocking the Goats' "thinking is irrelevant" mindset, but Battler's dialogue felt more appropiate going straight to defending the purpose of the game with Golden. - The lixaxil duel with Erika had it's own charm for me, there was a certain consistency in Erika not getting to solve the other mysteries in the end and just fighting Battler on equal footing. This fall in badassery gets balanced with his moment of Gold Truth before but, despite revealing more, I'd still like to think the original was worth saving in some aspects. - Be them goats or shadow versions, they were still the same mindless beasts, if anything they were included due to the fanservice of Black Battler. But it was quite nice to see Beato getting enraged as a final way of saying "this is just fanservice people, the story itself says it was concieved by bored people that wanted fanservice, and you are stupid assholes if years after it's end you are taking it seriously", it gets it's significance now more than before, when it didn't have the feeding of the Ougon Musou games, that subvertion was so meta. - The working of the Twilight title in the dialogue and the symbolism in Ange's new form are AWESOME WELCOME BONUSES. Originally it was a scene where I really didn't feel the need for the text to be gold, the white talked of a golden glow and I just trusted in it, which in my opinion is the point of the Golden Truth. But this is great because it adds so much more, doesn't remove. Last edited by Lombardest; 2015-01-28 at 08:36. |
2015-01-28, 02:04 | Link #34793 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2015
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wait, i'm reading the translation that was posted in previous pages of EP 8 chap. 26:
"p.6 Beato (flashback): Who was it who told me that I should "just write a love-letter saying 'I like you'"?! If you won't say anything then I will! No, I actually have something to tell her as myself! What Ange wishes for is neither consolation nor trickery! She wants the truth concerning us all! "Live"" When did this scene actually happen? Not the flashback. |
2015-01-29, 16:28 | Link #34794 | ||||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
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In an interview Ryukishi gave his final answer on the manga.
APGNation: The character of Sayo Yasuda in Umineko is interesting. What were your thoughts in Sayo’s creation? Additionally, what were your thoughts on her expansion in the Umineko manga? Ryukishi07: The secret of the character of Sayo is the core of Umineko’s story, so her inner workings and development were designed carefully and with the utmost complexity. In the original version, in order to leave room for imagination for the reader to solve the mystery, I chose not to draw Sayo’s secrets in great detail (of course, it’s still possible to grasp, but I didn’t show things in a way where everyone would get it.) With the manga version of Umineko, however, we considered the work to be a “period” to the “sentence” that is the world of Umineko. Because of this, when I met with Natsumi-sensei [Kei Natsumi, the artist of the manga adaptation of Umineko’s eighth episode], I asked her to show all the secrets in a way that can easily be understood by anyone. Thus, all of the episode of Sayo that appeared in the EP8 manga is the official answer to the world of Umineko. By no means is the manga version a individual interpretation. It is an official answer from me, Ryukishi07. Full interview here Quote:
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The manga makes it much more streamlined and better convey everyone's feelings. Quote:
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That is unless after Tohya felt sick Ikuko decided not to let him read the bottle and Tohya forgot about it, having to work the mystery out of his own. But well, there are still many things on which I'm hoping the manga will answer... and I'm sort of disappointed Battler's side was only brushed over so far as all we know about how he spent those 6 years is that he was 'busy' (though it's hinted that he didn't exactly spent them in happyness as Sayo feared and even the manga showed a picture of him crying... but well, it's all rather vague). I would have also loved to have an answer about the letter he might not have written to Sayo... but I'm starting to think that's not an answer we're going to receive. Quote:
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In fact most of Battler's messes are due to him not having the slightest idea how the game worked. He didn't know he had a right to inspect things, he didn't know that Knox was in action, he didn't know that the narration could lie. Erika knows all this, she could look past to Battler's game and yet... she solves nothing despite being a supposedly awesome detective? She feels like a fail. Here we learn that she was tricked by Bern (who withold info and set her on Natsuhi) and that ultimately she could solve everything. She's worthy of her title as detective. Definitely the manga is doing a way more awesome work to portraying the characters. BTW it seems Ep 7 Teaparty manga version hints at the existence of Eva's diary which is something I don't remember being mentioned in the VN. Interesting, like how they showed Beatrice wasn't anymore in the room when Eva woke up. Last edited by jjblue1; 2015-01-29 at 16:54. |
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2015-01-29, 20:40 | Link #34795 | |||||
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Join Date: Jan 2015
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It is a fact that Battler had a more stable environment to heal since he didn't recieve more cruel revelations regarding his origins (even though there still remained the issue of his true mother). Yet... I'm also one who thinks that his uncommitted attitude towards girls and his total refusal to suspect anyone were the effects of that single revelation, contrary to Sayo's fear of him never being serious about it in the first place. The boy that talked about how he loved novels with "heart" at their centre felt betrayed, he lost trust in love as to not be hurt again, but the boy couldn't discard his desire to love. And so he idolized all the relationships he had as something infinitely close to love but never reaching that point. Nobody is evil, but nobody is special either. Quote:
And yup, long before that I had read that scene again, indeed Eva did not mention seeing her corpse when she woke up. Btw, me, enigeist and bffempire are the same person Last edited by Lombardest; 2015-01-29 at 23:35. |
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2015-01-30, 02:56 | Link #34796 | ||||
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The way that EP8 was in the VN, I'd have said that there is a lot of content that could be cut for time, but the manga made sure to make all of it meaningful in some way. Quote:
We can either see that with the magical interpretation of them actually existing in the Golden Land and Beato scolding Battler for not holding true to his own motives in the meta-storyline. Or we can see it as Ange, in her heart, realizing that Battler made the same mistake that the witch-culprit was blamed for in Hachijô Tôya's novels, namely not speaking up about the actual goal. Quote:
I liked the way they reworked the whole battle in the chapel visually (I hear there's also a way to read the manga-chapters now, if you haven't already). In the VN I found it severely lacking in terms of the investment Beato and Ange had in their fight. Beato came across more as malicious and Ange just as an angry child (not helped by the voice actors being apparently as confused about what they were supposed to convey), but the manga makes it clear how desperate they both are. Quote:
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2015-01-30, 03:34 | Link #34797 | |||||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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Interesting enough I'm not sure how stable Battler's environment was. There are hints to how his grandfather was absolutely furious with Rudolf and might have willingly or unwillingly digged the dagger further into Battler's wounds. His grandparents died, exposing him again to loss of someone he loved. It's hinted his school life in the beginning wasn't perfect (in middle school he refused studying and only recently he figured out that behaviour was wrong... and there are other mentions of how people made fun of him for being naive, and of how he picked up fights with people). Battler's way to react to bullying (or problems) thought is mostly to wave it off and laugh over it or pretend to, which is an attitude that generally tends to make bullying him not really that fun, differently from Sayo who can't openly react to it... which sadly is an attitude that invites more bullying. Also Battler hints to the fact in those 6 years he suffered and that he's still upside down... but it's so vague many forgets about it. Quote:
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The diary can cover what Eva saw but then we need a source for what Shannon & George saw (their meeting), for what Kyrie saw (when she kills people in the mansion), for what Rudolf saw (when he kills George), for what Battler saw and thought (when he talks with Jessica and realizes he's a bit jealous of George). So it can be that the Teaparty isn't fully true because all that wasn't in the diary was made up by Bern. Quote:
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2015-01-30, 13:30 | Link #34798 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Speaking of EP7 tea party, there's a lot of things that i find wrong in it. First, is that they solve the freaking epitaph, the same epitaph that they tried to solve for many years even before the incident started and failed miserably. how miraculous is that? that they manage to solve it overnight. Next, we see Eva and Hideyoshi accidentally killing both krauss and natsuhi while both of battler's parents are depicted as merciless killers. Im sensing that who ever wrote this thing is trying so hard to make Eva as innocent as possible while blaming all of the killing on battler's parents. Third thing is the guns, why do they each have one again? and all of those are even loaded which is ridiculous. Lastly, the bomb exploded. what's the point of doing that? It just makes Eva even more suspicious and hiding all the evidence through an explosion is a typical move for a criminal. In the end, this story just doesn't feel right, its so far from to the truth and unrealistic at best.
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2015-01-30, 14:36 | Link #34799 | |||||
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The epitaph had only been made known to them in April 1984, and by 1985 they were too busy fighting about the actual inheritance then chasing after some rumored treasure that most of them doubtet even existed. It needed the ingniting spark given by Sayo's letter to actually make them put their head together, mainly out of fear of losing their money Quote:
Yes, the merciless nature of Kyrie and Rudolph is likely overplayed, both by Eva's state of mind and by the interpretation we are given, but they did kill people, because of money and because they felt they could. Quote:
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2015-01-30, 15:27 | Link #34800 | |||||
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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So maybe the key to solving the epitaph so easily is just teamwork. Quote:
Ep 7 manga version is also poorly executed in this regard as we jump from chap 41 in which no one has guns to chap 42 in which Krauss has a gun (I can't see if the others have a gun as well) then put it down to pick the gold so we see that Eva, Rosa and Kyrie have a gun then Krauss has a gun again, they're clearly divided in two groups like the VN described them (Eva, Krauss and Hideyoshi on a side, Natsuhi, Rudolf, Rosa and Kyrie on the other side) then suddently Natsuhi is shot (she's not shown jumping on Eva) and honestly, if it wasn't for Eva claiming she didn't do it on purpose I would have thought more likely it was Kyrie or Rosa who shot her considering the situation. At least Ep 8 adds a scene in whcih Natsuhi jumped on Eva, making more logic that Eva would shot her by mistake. What however the VN stressed out really well was that Eva, starting from when they began solving the epitaph, was in such a strong emotional state it's not really surprising she ended up pushing a trigger, willingly or unwillingly. However... that's all. Really, I was hoping for Ep 7 manga version to handle this scene much, much better. This is another of the things that disappointed me in Ep 7. I could almost say that Ryukishi was so focused on making Ep 8 awesome that neglected Ep 7, apart for a couple of things here and there. Quote:
Add to this that Kyrie and Rudolf remain catboxes in their motivations. They had debt with the mafia if I'm not wrong so they might have felt if they didn't grab all that money they would have been turned into sushi so maybe it wasn't just greed but desperation and lack of trust in Eva, Hideyoshi and Rosa (everyone seemed trigger happy). Kyrie claims that she's merely the one who reached for first the conclusion only one of them must survive, implying she firmly believe the others would have tried to kill her and Rudolf as well. Killing everyone else... is pretty horrible from them but at that point they might have felt so cornered they stopped to think straight. Surely they weren't good people... but maybe they too like everyone in Umineko were pushed to take the wrong choices by circumstances not by an inerently purely evil nature. Quote:
It's awfully convenient she hadn't done it yet but well, it's not illogical. Quote:
Yup, it is, but I also think it needed to be streamlined better, which was why I was so hoping Ep 7 manga version would do a better work with it and was so disappointed when I saw that wasn't the case. I understand Eva might have reported the facts in her diary in a confusing manner as she was under heavy emotions when they happened and they also scarred her but as she doesn't come out as the narrator the scene just felt poorly told by a third party narrator. Last but not least as the thread for the video is closed (no idea why) I thought about posting my new insane creation here. Forgive me if it's not the most proper place... but the most appropriate thread doesn't let me post anymore... |
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