Madan no Ou to Vanadis [Light Novel]

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by ikramit

This comment under the video pretty much mirrors my own so I'll just paste it here because I'm lazy:

"I have to take this with a grain of salt. He's using a 30 lb bow, and half-drawing it, weakening it further.

Part of the vid shows him shooting bullet-point arrows at "riveted chain mail" and piercing it. What gauge is the wire of the rings? That matters. Also the range is short, looks like less than 15m, and it doesn't look like the arrows penetrate very deeply.

History and logic says:

There's a reason soldiers and knights of the sword-and-bow era wore 40-60 lbs of armor, and it certainly wasn't decoration... they needed it for protection. Otherwise they would not have tolerated the weight and discomfort, and would have discarded it in favor of mobility and endurance... so they wore it of necessity. Thus the real actual armor had to have been a bit more effective at stopping attacks than detractors claim.

A recent find indicates that the draw-strength of the English longbow varied from 65 to 160 lbs... averaging perhaps 80-120 lbs. They would not have used such heavy draw weights for war-bows if a 30 pound draw would have sufficed, as the heavier draw is both slower and more tiring to the arm. If they used it, they needed it.

When he can do those tricks with an 80 lb draw longbow, at typical engagement ranges of 100m+, then I will be impressed.

While Andersen's skills, or perhaps I should say tricks, are certainly remarkable, I must take with a large helping of salt the notion that ancient archers used these same methods in warfare against armored opponents."

They most certainly wouldn't have been jumping up and down.Archery in the ancient to medieval world didn't emphasize so much on aim,but in the ability to fire mass and rapid volleys.If you find an enemy in the point blank range,you are either supposed to retreat as a archer or join in the melee with melee weapons of your own.

By the way,here is another video debunking the earlier one.

[DragonKing0117]

IIRC haven't bows essentially been around for millennia or some sort? Who's to say that at one point people didn't use 30lb bows? They just got replaced as people got a bit more developed. And even then, there are eccentrics no matter what the time period. Saying that no one used them at all is an assumption until evidence proves otherwise.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by DragonKing0117

IIRC haven't bows essentially been around for millennia or some sort? Who's to say that at one point people didn't use 30lb bows? They just got replaced as people got a bit more developed. And even then, there are eccentrics no matter what the time period. Saying that no one used them at all is an assumption until evidence proves otherwise.

He's saying that bows like that wouldn't have been useful in war,which is true because it couldn't penetrate armour.

[Armando99]

Originally Posted by DragonKing0117

IIRC haven't bows essentially been around for millennia or some sort? Who's to say that at one point people didn't use 30lb bows? They just got replaced as people got a bit more developed. And even then, there are eccentrics no matter what the time period. Saying that no one used them at all is an assumption until evidence proves otherwise.

I think if you watched the video "archery rant" that @MoeConnection attached to his/her comment, you will find out that the commentator mentioned that you can use a 30lb pull on a bow but maybe only for hunting purposes.

[Avrorrange]

Basically,you can discard most of the things said about historical archers down into the drain.Unlike what's said,most archers do NOT move.There were targets for archers to practice with.The only archers that move are horse archers.In a military situation,an armoured soldier would have not only survived a shot from him but cleaved him in half.The video's basically generalising a lot.The English longbowmen for example,do not hold the arrows with their hands,they generally have them staked on the ground.

[GrrDraxin]

They're probably both right. I mean, there were likely many different kinds of archers for various situations. The war archers that used really heavy duty bows and arrows for armor penetration, and the rouge/assassin/hunter archers that used smaller, lighter bows and arrows that aim for close range accuracy at unarmored targets. The D&D and such Rouge class had to have it's origins somewhere, right? Not everyone could afford to, not want to wear heavy armor all their lives, especially aristocrats, more so those who actively oppressed their populaces.

[Go0gleplex]

If you're talking about archery....there's a lot that's been misunderstood or mistaken apparently. For those whom have not seen this;

https://www.nerdist.com/2015/01/bada...-archery-myth/

[ikramit]

Originally Posted by Go0gleplex

If you're talking about archery....there's a lot that's been misunderstood or mistaken apparently. For those whom have not seen this;

https://www.nerdist.com/2015/01/bada...-archery-myth/

The subject of the clickbait article you just linked was the source of this discussion.... look through the last few comments and you will see a strong argument against what was stated in the video. It amounts to the fact that while the tricks pulled off in the YouTube video are impressive they basically amount to nothing more then just that tricks and would have no real place in a battlefield environment.

[Go0gleplex]

Oh...okay...agree on some of that then. The trick shots, probably not a usual battlefield thing. The speed shots and while running...historically proven. And if using pile arrows, good odds on piercing plate armor according to SCA sources since that's what those arrows were developed for...and the early ancestor to sabot artillery shells.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Go0gleplex

Oh...okay...agree on some of that then. The trick shots, probably not a usual battlefield thing. The speed shots and while running...historically proven. And if using pile arrows, good odds on piercing plate armor according to SCA sources since that's what those arrows were developed for...and the early ancestor to sabot artillery shells.

Speed shots are useless.The other video tells you about it already.Shots from speed shots are so weak that there's no way you can penetrate armour.As for arrows penetrating PLATE armour,it's doubtful to be honest.There were some documentaries that showed that it was impossible for so-called armour piercing arrows to penetrate them.As for running while shooting,that's BS as well.Foot archers won't do that.The ones that actually shoot whilst moving are horse archers,who can do things that are much more impressive,considering they have to ride a horse while shooting in motion.

Another video debunking Lars Anderson's so-called historical archery.Basically,the guy has been generalizing archery a lot.The guy probably practices Middle Eastern archery and thinks that any archery practice that does not fit with the Middle Eastern Style is ahistorical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4NrN...-ts=1421914688

[Armando99]

So with all this discussion about archery, how does this support or put into question Tigre's skill with the bow?

When someone claims to be knowledgeable about weapons in medieval weaponry, I lean towards the skeptic side because I am not so sure that modern humans can accurately describe what happened some time ago. For the most part, those historical accounts about ancient battles are for the most part on the point of view of the victors and may not even be that accurate.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Armando99

So with all this discussion about archery, how does this support or put into question Tigre's skill with the bow?

When someone claims to be knowledgeable about weapons in medieval weaponry, I lean towards the skeptic side because I am not so sure that modern humans can accurately describe what happened some time ago. For the most part, those historical accounts about ancient battles are for the most part on the point of view of the victors and may not even be that accurate.

It should that Tigre's skill with the bow is the work of fiction for the most part.There's no way you can speed shoot AND kill so many enemies in plate armour.

[Daft]

http://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk

Interesting video.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Daft

http://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk

Interesting video.

Oh Lord,not this again.We already had two to three pages of discussion detailing why contents of this video about 'historical accuracy' is like 90% false.

[Apoptosis]

Originally Posted by Daft

http://youtu.be/BEG-ly9tQGk

Interesting video.

You obviously haven't read the past few pages, that video was all people were talking about. Even though it's off topic.

[DragonKing0117]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

It should that Tigre's skill with the bow is the work of fiction for the most part.There's no way you can speed shoot AND kill so many enemies in plate armour.

Did you not see how it was shown in the anime? He got them through their helmet visors. I'm pretty sure that's how it was described in the novels and the manga shows it like that as well.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by DragonKing0117

Did you not see how it was shown in the anime? He got them through their helmet visors. I'm pretty sure that's how it was described in the novels and the manga shows it like that as well.

It still wouldn't have worked.There's simply no way you can speed shoot that way with a bow strong enough to fire war arrows that can kill a person.As mentioned in the video I've posted,the type of bow Lars Andersson speed shoots with can't really kill anyone unless you are at extreme close range and it has to hit the vitals as well.Otherwise,they most you can do is just scrape him and he will just walk over,bleeding,but very much alive and cleave you in half.

[DragonKing0117]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

It still wouldn't have worked.There's simply no way you can speed shoot that way with a bow strong enough to fire war arrows that can kill a person.As mentioned in the video I've posted,the type of bow Lars Andersson speed shoots with can't really kill anyone unless you are at extreme close range and it has to hit the vitals as well.Otherwise,they most you can do is just scrape him and he will just walk over,bleeding,but very much alive and cleave you in half.

Again, helmet visor, the opening in the helmet that allows you to see. An arrow goes through there, hits you in the eye, which is easier to penetrate than the rest of the body, and you're dead because the eyes are directly in front of the brain.

It may not pierce all the way through or whatever, but even an inch or two in the eyes will kill you, if not instantly then definitely after a short while.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by DragonKing0117

Again, helmet visor, the opening in the helmet that allows you to see. An arrow goes through there, hits you in the eye, which is easier to penetrate than the rest of the body, and you're dead because the eyes are directly in front of the brain.

It may not pierce all the way through or whatever, but even an inch or two in the eyes will kill you, if not instantly then definitely after a short while.

Not enough to kill you actually,unless it goes all the way through,but like the video said,it probably doesn't have enough power to do so.Besides that, Tigre's bow is clearly not the 30 ibn bow Lars Andersson uses,so it would have been nearly impossible to speed shoot like that.

[ikramit]

A work of fiction does not need to resemble reality it really does not matter if tigers skills are true to life or whether their completely unrealistic so long as they make sense in the world the author created it's not an issue