Aldnoah.Zero - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[leelee85]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Slaine is pretty much Char of the series.

Like Char Slaine has a drastic change of priorities as well as a cause he himself doesn't believe in.

Slaine's goal was expose and bring retribution to the ones who tried to kill Asseylum. That turned to join the traitors and kill Inaho. Though he did kill Sazzbaum. Slain took Sazzbaum's legacy. It Seemed less to bring prosperity to the people of Vers and tear down the nobility but more he wants Asseylum for himself.

Well Char didn't die at the end.

[FrejaOne]

Originally Posted by Oboro

this is another "what if" trick you try to do since this very morning?

Yep and no one can answer that because there is no answer.
You can't judge two characters using two different sets of rules unless one wants to engage in what you call fanwank.
This is actually a smart move by the author because from this discussion alone it's obvious that the majority of the audience doesn't even notice the trick the author himself is using.

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

That is no excuse. Slaine chose to do so. And just because he chose to do all this nonsense because of his absurd goal, it does not make his actions right or less evil.
Yagami Light had a goal too...
Every thief, every rapist, every massmurderer, every dictator etc...has some kind of goal...

And Inaho and the gang are fighting for survival everyday.

So he should have either sat back in a passive manner doing nothing for the princess (and then everyone would have said, damn that useless weakling Slaine) or tried to pointlessly negotiate with Inaho and die as a result (and then everyone would have shrugged and forgotten all about him because he is not really memorable anyway). Nice choices.

[Darthtabby]

I find some of Slaine's actions rather morally questionable. On the other hand, I'm not sold on the interpretation of his motivations that his obsessive haters are trying so hard to push. I'm inclined to wait until I have a clearer picture of what his endgame is.

[NorthernFallout]

How does it feel, Slaine, when everything comes tumbling down on your head? To see your progress erased before you?

And it's your own fault.

You gosh darn moron.

Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to the showdown.

[LKK]

Originally Posted by Kairin

Thread Guidelines

• Character bashing is not on-topic and will not be tolerated.

Guys, you're getting too close to crossing this line. Turn down the heat or I'll close the thread.

[Oboro]

Originally Posted by IllegalGoddess

Yep and no one can answer that because there is no answer.

Of course is fanwanking, how ppl could answer about with things that never happened?

This is the limit of your argument and reasoning

edit:

Originally Posted by LKK

Guys, you're getting too close to crossing this line. Turn down the heat or I'll close the thread.

ok

[FrejaOne]

Originally Posted by Kurohane

From the wise words of Break from Pandora Hearts: "I hate reasons that start out like 'I did it all for someone else!'" This is Slaine's reason d'etre, that he's doing it all for Asseylum. However, he fought under the pretext of her name and blessing, and gained power through trickery. Things he knows she'd abhor. He does this with a end goal in mind. and keeps moving forward by vying for the throne by engaging himself to Asseylum through name only, due to the real Asseylum being comatose. He even gave up on her ever waking up. In the end, he's not doing all these things for anyone but himself, and is using Asseylum as an excuse. No one should buy into what he says that "he has no dreams".

Well, that's what I'm trying to find out.
Could he have done it in a different way? Did he maybe have a special talent, a loving bunch of supporters and admirers, and a military weapon freely given to him while being lauded as a hero and a special snowflake all along the way? Like this other guy.

The thing with Slaine, which I will not repeat anymore after this, is that he is basically the guy who has two choices: do nothing and lose--or pick a knife and stab the enemy in the back. He chooses the second option and he is vilified for fighting dirty because everyone somehow assumes there was some kind of honest duel going on as a third option.

The thing with Inaho, which I also won't repeat anymore, is that all his choices are not the result of his personality but his circumstances. His morals are never challenged thus it requires no effort of his own to stay a nice guy.

That's it. That's the author's trick. Which is not fair, but it obviously works.

Originally Posted by Oboro

Of course is fanwanking, how ppl could answer about with things that never happened?

This is the limit of your argument and reasoning

The very fact that it never happened proves my point.

[Oboro]

Originally Posted by IllegalGoddess

The very fact that it never happened proves my point.

You can also affirm that the inko's mother hair colour was blonde, and that Slaine don't wear underwear, but since it was not showed in the show, this is you " special fanfiction"

And if you ask the viewers, noone can give to you an answer.

That Is the point, not really that you or your argument are right.

Edit: now, since a moderator asked us to stop it, feel free to continue alone about Slaine behaviour. Best regards

[Kurohane]

Originally Posted by IllegalGoddess

Well, that's what I'm trying to find out.
Could he have done it in a different way? Did he maybe have a special talent, a loving bunch of supporters and admirers, and a military weapon freely given to him while being lauded as a hero and a special snowflake all along the way? Like this other guy.

The thing with Slaine, which I will not repeat anymore after this, is that he is basically the guy who has two choices: do nothing and lose--or pick a knife and stab the enemy in the back. He chooses the second option and he is vilified for fighting dirty because everyone somehow assumes there was some kind of honest duel going on as a third option.

The thing with Inaho, which I also won't repeat anymore, is that all his choices are not the result of his personality but his circumstances. His morals are never challenged thus it requires no effort of his own to stay a nice guy.

That's it. That's the author's trick. Which is not fair, but it obviously works.

My main problem with Slaine is his attitude. It's as if the world revolves around his obsession with Asseylum. I bring up his latest conversation with Eddelrituo. He goes on monologue of self-lamenting that the proclamation was due to his "weakness of heart" and that the "miracle" happened to reprimand him. For someone others claim to be selfless, that sounds rather self-centered. In the end, he never tells Eddelrituo what she wanted to know of how he plans to handle this from here on. If others are criticizing his actions, it's really to supplement against his current disposition.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by IllegalGoddess

So he should have either sat back in a passive manner doing nothing for the princess (and then everyone would have said, damn that useless weakling Slaine) or tried to pointlessly negotiate with Inaho and die as a result (and then everyone would have shrugged and forgotten all about him because he is not really memorable anyway). Nice choices.

Life is tough. But you always have options how to act. And how you act and what you do, demonstrates more than 1000 nice words what your true character is. Actions speak louder than words after all.

Lets see what he did for Asseylum till now...
Bingo! The right answer is...absolutely nothing. dun dun dun


And again.
Slaine was in no position to demand anything in the first place. His only reasonable option was to cooperate, but he completely blew it.


Your point is that poor Slaine is in this mess and he has no choice except to act like he does.

And I say that it is not true at all.
Petty excuses won't change what he did and it wont make it less bad.
He had always several options and he always chose the ones who put him deeper in the mess.
He is responsible over the things he is doing. He willingly chose to do them and he willingly chose to involve himself in this crap. He clearly knows that it is not right. Everytime he does something he gets deeper and deepper and deeper in. And it's is his own damn fault that he is in this situation in the first.
So why should we make excuses and justify his nonsense when he is responisble for his actions and had options to do better?
Do we also make excuses, downplay and justify the actions of criminals, diktators and other people like them?

[Hidetoshi Nakata]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Life is tough. But you always have options how to act. And how you act and what you do, demonstrates more than 1000 nice words what your true character is. Actions speak louder than words after all.

Lets see what he did for Asseylum till now...
Bingo! The right answer is...absolutely nothing. dun dun dun


And again.
Slaine was in no position to demand anything in the first place. His only reasonable option was to cooperate, but he completely blew it.


Your point is that poor Slaine is in this mess and he has no choice except to act like he does.

And I say that it is not true at all.
Petty excuses won't change what he did and it wont make it less bad.
He had always several options and he always chose the ones who put him deeper in the mess.
He is responsible over the things he is doing. He willingly chose to do them and he willingly chose to involve himself in this crap. He clearly knows that it is not right. Everytime he does something he gets deeper and deepper and deeper in. And it's is his own damn fault that he is in this situation in the first.
So why should we make excuses and justify his nonsense when he is responisble for his actions and had options to do better?
Do we also make excuses, downplay and justify the actions of criminals, diktators and other people like them?

Spoiler:

[Arya]

Originally Posted by IllegalGoddess

Yep and no one can answer that because there is no answer.

Well, they clearly seat in different positions, but Inaho never once forced Asseylum to do anything, he also stopped her reveling herself once. And when they reached the base he let her go. Despite her being a clear ace. So at that point, before Asseylum called him, they were going to lose and probably die against Saazbaum. That's because, smart as he is, he never thought to use Asseylum in any ways if not in form of cooperation. Even at cost of his and their lives.
That's important in paragon to Slaine who later instead used and is using her despite what he said in their first meeting with Inaho against her will. And also in respect of their conversation during that meeting. Inaho felt Slaine instability and so asked, what if we used Asseylum? And Slaine snapped. But as showed in retrospect he had never the intention to use her. So, from a narrative point of view, Inaho was moderately right, IMO, since he simply tested Slaine and he failed.
Again to the base and later in the castle, there is another paragon between them, Inaho also listened to what she wanted to say and also agreed to her plan, when instead Slaine, despite he heard Asselum words to Inaho, decided to ignore them. He at that moment had a chance, not to believe in terrans, but to believe in her and in her words. And he didn't. Or if you prefer it took them personally.
And he didn't I think at this point because he doesn't know her and doesn't see her as a person, but yeah, something to protect, even now the better choice is to hope for her to stay without her memories.
When Inaho has always seen her as who she is, Seylum, not the princess. The one that fired grenades, the one ready to stand and protect people, the one ready to put her life on the line with a very dangerous and dubious plan. He acknowledged her to the point to accept she'd risk her life, because that was her free choice, it doesn't matter Inaho's feelings in the matter, nor her status. That's because he sees and treats her as a person.

So to go back to the question, he was put in a position to lose and probably die and still didn't decide to use Seylum.



I kinda understand why probably the writers have waited killing off some named characters, otherwise the hate-meter would have exploded

[azurestratos]

Originally Posted by lubczyk

That still relies on the ridiculous notion that Slaine should put all his bets on one Earth soldier or small group of soldiers to defeat the Counts and he should just wait it out. What if it doesn't work? Vers wins the war. The various Counts consolidate their territory on Earth, then they turn their attention to the one lowly Terran Count known as Slaine. Then, they confront him in a group or outright attack him. What if the Emperor dies in the meantime and the various Counts go into civil war? What if Lemrina gets found out in the meantime or goes all bitter crazy and rat's Slaine's plan out to the other Counts?

What if the other Counts don't give a damn about peace talks, trade or refugees?

Slaine needed to consolidate his power base before things settle down and everyone turns their attention and hatred on him.

Goes both ways.

This "ridiculous notion" also can happen if Slaine managed to conquer Earth. What if it doesn't work? Terrans wins the war. What if the Vers wins the war and the various Counts consolidate their territory on Earth, then they turn their attention to the one lowly Terran Count known as Slaine. Then, they confront him in a group or outright attack him. What if the Emperor dies in the meantime and the various Counts go into civil war? What if Lemrina gets found out in the meantime or goes all bitter crazy and rat's Slaine's plan out to the other Counts?

What if the other Counts don't give a damn about unity, equal rights, and revolutionizing the Vers system? What if they don't care about Slaine's "power base" once they got their hands on Earth?

[azurestratos]

Before everyone thinks wrongly let me affirm that I am neutral for both Slaine and Inaho. Here's my post from another site.

>If we compare Inaho to Slaine: who would be considered more moral?
Slaine you could say. Why? Because he feels bad for manipulating people. If he was amoral, he wouldn't have cared. Inaho doesn't feel bad manipulating/exploiting people because his logic says its necessary. That doesn't make Inaho a moral person, but just logical person.

>Who has everything they could want given to him by simply being himself?
Who are you talking about? Both Inaho and Slaine never asked for this, or anything that have happened. Both didn't get what they wanted.

>Who did the princess fall in love with? Who has had the support of his friends, family, and army behind him the entire series?
The princess loved everyone. Because that's how she is. She loved peace more than anything, because she doesn't think two times about Slaine or Inaho, before throwing herself into the fire. She is married to her ideals. Deal with it, shippers!

To the second question; that's the point, Inaho can live without the support (or that's how he thinks). If you put Inaho in Slaine's position, Inaho would do much better despite having no allies. Its because emotional support is a need for Slaine, but a convenience/nuisance for Inaho.
Inaho have friends and families, but he ignores them/their feelings (his mistakes) in favor of logic. Slaine have opportunities, but he ignores these choices (his mistakes) in favor of his feelings.
Slaine remains true to his morals, and are conflicted because he wants to make the most moral decisions.
Inaho don't give two thoughts to morals, so we don't see him morally conflicted, but he was always shown bothered/exasperated when making decisions, because he wants to make the most logical decision.
We don't see that with Slaine. The moment Slaine confirm his moral standing/belief, he doesn't show bothered by logic conflict of his actions. He just do it, because its in the name of righteous moral.

There, these are just some of the mistakes both characters make. Also if you read my earlier post carefully, there's one more example how Inaho also make feeling mistakes.

What bothers me is; Most Inaho fans would readily admit Inaho is an emotional idiot. Most Slaine fans wouldn't admit Slaine is a logical idiot.

[Lhklan]

Originally Posted by azurestratos

What bothers me is; Most Inaho fans would readily admit Inaho is an emotional idiot. Most Slaine fans wouldn't admit Slaine is a logical idiot.

I definitely agree with the bolded part.

Originally Posted by IllegalGoddess

Well, that's what I'm trying to find out.
Could he have done it in a different way? Did he maybe have a special talent, a loving bunch of supporters and admirers, and a military weapon freely given to him while being lauded as a hero and a special snowflake all along the way? Like this other guy.

Well, season 2 did show him suddenly becoming super calculating and super manipulative, so thre's that. He have Harklight on his back ever since the start of season 2, and he also got his hands on a Kat that could predict the bloody future.

The thing with Slaine, which I will not repeat anymore after this, is that he is basically the guy who has two choices: do nothing and lose--or pick a knife and stab the enemy in the back. He chooses the second option and he is vilified for fighting dirty because everyone somehow assumes there was some kind of honest duel going on as a third option.

Don't know about others, but I'm not fully villfying for fighting dirty. Rather, what I'm disgusted about is him using the face and identity of the one he love as a way of fighting dirty. Kind of like someone about to shoot you then you pull the girl who you and your opponent love in as a meat shield.

The thing with Inaho, which I also won't repeat anymore, is that all his choices are not the result of his personality but his circumstances. His morals are never challenged thus it requires no effort of his own to stay a nice guy.

... Yeahhhhh, no. His circumstances made him chose, but his personality determines the choice.

That's it. That's the author's trick. Which is not fair, but it obviously works.

The very fact that it never happened proves my point.

So what's your point then? We shouldn't hate a character because of what possibly could have happened?

[Top Sergeant]

Is the shrapnel still flying in here?

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Top Sergeant

Is the shrapnel still flying in here?

Yeah pretty much.

I took a step back and am just watching now. I've said my piece, I have no more to say.

[LKK]

Originally Posted by cyth

Okay, I'm interested in something. Actually, I want to discuss it before it turns into a future fanwank.

cyth's post and its replies have been moved to the Spoilers & Speculation thread. Please continue this discussion there. Thank you.

[Oboro]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Next week's episode is called:

Spoiler for future episode title:

Fortune's Fool

Which is a Shakespearean term originally from "Romeo and Juliet". According to enotes:

Spoiler for again, future episode title:

"Shakespeare's phrase "fortune's fool" seems to be his invention, although it has proverbial kin: "Fortune favors fools"; "God sends fortune to fools"; and "Fools have fortune," all of which date from the mid-sixteenth century. In Shakespeare's hands, however, the sentiment of all these proverbs is inverted. Fortune is not bestowed on fools; men are the slaves Fortune makes fools of. Romeo, for example, simply by defending himself against Tybalt, a Capulet and therefore a blood enemy, becomes an outlaw. Caught up in a design he is powerless to affect, Romeo feels like fortune's puppet."

Slaine is seen as this character, where it's not so much people, but fate in general that is moving him in its own direction, often causing him to suffer. He tries to tell the emperor the truth, and it leads to him being branded a traitor and tortured nearly to death. He tells the princess about Earth which she wants to visit, and that leads to an attempt on her life. He tries to save the man who saved him, only for this to lead to his best friend being mortally wounded. He tried to take on this giant scheme to do something for her, and he's getting swallowed up by it. He is in a sense, this puppet of fate.

I will never understand the hate that he gets, but I do hope that he can somehow find a way out of the dark maze that fate has put before him. He's got people near him who care about him now, which he didn't have in the first cour, so he has a good chance.

i don't use spoilers 'cause we are talking about Romeo and Juliet.

the meaning of Fortune's fool in Shakespeare is a little bit different. In Romeo and Juliet act 3 scene 1, Romeo call himself a "fortune's fool", where the true meaning of Fool is simply jester or laughing stock or gull. Romeo call himself a "fortune's fool" to assuage his own guilt for the death of Tybalt. In other words, he thinks of the consequences of his actions as caused by fate or luck, not caused by its behaviour. So Romeo absolve himself, as a victim of the fate. Ovb at first he didn't want to kill Tybalt he defend Mercutio from Tybalt, but lately, when Tybalt kill Mercutio, in anger he confronts and slays Tybalt for vengeance.
From Romeo and Juliet, act 3 scene 1

BENVOLIO
Here comes the furious Tybalt back again.
ROMEO
He’s alive and victorious, and Mercutio’s dead? Enough with mercy and consideration. It’s time for rage to guide my actions. Now, Tybalt, you can call me “villain” the way you did before. Mercutio’s soul is floating right above our heads. He’s waiting for you to keep him company on the way up to heaven. Either you, or I, or both of us have to go with him.
TYBALT
Wretched boy, you hung out with him here, and you’re going to go to heaven with him.
ROMEO
This fight will decide who dies.
(They fight. TYBALT falls and dies)
BENVOLIO
Romeo, get out of here. The citizens are around, and Tybalt is dead. Don’t stand there shocked. The Prince will give you the death penalty if you get caught. So get out of here!
ROMEO
Oh, I am fortune’s fool!

At the end Romeo want to kill and killed Tybalt, not the fate or the luck.

The meaning of this well-known sentence is obvious, when someone act in a way and the results of those actions are bad consequences often call for tricks of fate, blind of its own behavior and will.
Like Romeo in rage and for vengeance Kills Tybalt, and then absolve himself like a victim or Fortune's Fool

This meaning fit also much better in the A/Z story.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

However, just for the fun of it:

I'd say invisiphrakt is called "Amazonis" after a plain on Mars and named after the famous mythical female archers.

As for electriphrakt, I'm going to take the easy way out, and call it "Electris" after a Martian albedo.

And for dupliphrackt, I'd either call it "Hydrae" or "Hydraotes"which are both classical names of Mars geographical locations. Of course it would named that fot the mythical Hydra, because every time you destroy one, two will take it's place.

From the website:
"Zebrin (electric guy)
One of the 37 clans of Martian Knights. Count peerage.
The Kataphraktos he pilots is Electris.

Rafia (female knight)
One of the 37 clans of Martian Knights. Count peerage.
The Kataphraktos she pilots is Scandia.

Olga (clone guy)
One of the 37 clans of Martian Knights. Count peerage.
The Kataphraktos he pilots is Ortygia."

Wow, I actually guessed one right! Considering how they name these things, one out of three ain't bad.