Madan no Ou to Vanadis [Light Novel]

[tshamo]

Spoiler for spoiler for vol 11:

Vol 11 will be out on March.
from the summary I read it seems Tiger returned to Brune after meeting the king. What I don't understand, how come he returned before fulfilling the agreement that he will stay for 3 years. And it seems that he talked with the king about an important subject for him to feel troubled. I think the king tried to persuade him to stay.

[Apoptosis]

Originally Posted by tshamo

Spoiler for spoiler for vol 11:

Vol 11 will be out on March.
from the summary I read it seems Tiger returned to Brune after meeting the king. What I don't understand, how come he returned before fulfilling the agreement that he will stay for 3 years. And it seems that he talked with the king about an important subject for him to feel troubled. I think the king tried to persuade him to stay.

Possibly, placing him in danger and sending him to another country as a diplomat probably violated terms of agreement between Brune and Zchted so Tigre is being recalled.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by tshamo

Spoiler for spoiler for vol 11:

Vol 11 will be out on March.
from the summary I read it seems Tiger returned to Brune after meeting the king. What I don't understand, how come he returned before fulfilling the agreement that he will stay for 3 years. And it seems that he talked with the king about an important subject for him to feel troubled. I think the king tried to persuade him to stay.

Isn't the agreement for Tigre to stay more between Eleanor and Regin?If Eleanor says yes,I suppose there isn't much the King can say.

[Newhope]

It was mentioned in volume 10 that due to placing Tigre in danger he would be returned to Brune the spring of the next year, it was Winter when he was united with Ellen so he only had a few more month left in zchted by the end of VOL 10.

[Tohno Ren]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

Isn't the agreement for Tigre to stay more between Eleanor and Regin?If Eleanor says yes,I suppose there isn't much the King can say.

At least if he stays with Ellen, both of them can manage things and troubles just fine, and Regin only has her power as queen - but she can't protect him fully by her own (especially because she's the queen - a girl with "big power")

[GrrDraxin]

It's also possible that Regin may take the opportunity to propose to Tigre. While I can't judge that she's bold enough to do so without some coaxing. I'm sure she'd look at her situation and judge that she would need his "charm" and ability to raise an army quickly to try and stamp out any distension. If she herself doesn't actually do it, I'm sure that she may at least discuss the possibility of it with Bodwin.

[Armando99]

I think it is too early for anyone proposing to Tigre. Based on the upcoming volume summary, trouble is just around the corner and our hero is expected to resolve it once again.

I believe @MoeConnection is right about the agreement of keeping Tigre is between Regin and Ellen. It was under the guise of Brune/Zhcted agreement but the details were between those two women.

The big question mark is, when Tigre decides to go to war in the second Brune civil war, would he get the support of the Vanadis' that helped him, the last time?

Before, there was the excuse of Tigre protecting his holding so Ellen/Sophia was able to sell this idea to the King, although reluctantly. Now that it is a straight out civil war, the King may just ditrectly forbid any of the Vanadis from participating. Well, this would not matter to Ellen anyway, considering how she feels about King Victor. She, and Lim of course, would be by Tigre's side. While at it, all the other Vanadis' except Valentina will more than likely offer help to Tigre as well setting up the stage for the Zchted civil war.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Armando99

I think it is too early for anyone proposing to Tigre. Based on the upcoming volume summary, trouble is just around the corner and our hero is expected to resolve it once again.

I believe @MoeConnection is right about the agreement of keeping Tigre is between Regin and Ellen. It was under the guise of Brune/Zhcted agreement but the details were between those two women.

The big question mark is, when Tigre decides to go to war in the second Brune civil war, would he get the support of the Vanadis' that helped him, the last time?

Before, there was the excuse of Tigre protecting his holding so Ellen/Sophia was able to sell this idea to the King, although reluctantly. Now that it is a straight out civil war, the King may just ditrectly forbid any of the Vanadis from participating. Well, this would not matter to Ellen anyway, considering how she feels about King Victor. She, and Lim of course, would be by Tigre's side. While at it, all the other Vanadis' except Valentina will more than likely offer help to Tigre as well setting up the stage for the Zchted civil war.

Does he really need the Vanadis' help?Unlike last time where he's got little legitimacy,this time he's got the full backing of the monarch.He'll have the full backing of the same old people.He will also have the support of all the standing armies across the kingdom(last time he only had the backing of only those who adhered to Roland's call).

Those who are rebelling don't have an actual candidate with a good claim.Sure they can set up Regin's cousin as a claimant,but her claim is inferior to Regin's, a lot.Anyone in the kingdom can see that she's just an usurper with no right to the throne and that this is just a blatant power grab.Another thing is that those who rebel are probably the remnants of the Ganelon/Thenardier faction.The previous civil war destroyed much of their power and even if they combined together,they'd have lost much of the previous strength,financial support and organization.

[Armando99]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

Does he really need the Vanadis' help?Unlike last time where he's got little legitimacy,this time he's got the full backing of the monarch.He'll have the full backing of the same old people.He will also have the support of all the standing armies across the kingdom(last time he only had the backing of only those who adhered to Roland's call).

Those who are rebelling don't have an actual candidate with a good claim.Sure they can set up Regin's cousin as a claimant,but her claim is inferior to Regin's, a lot.Anyone in the kingdom can see that she's just an usurper with no right to the throne and that this is just a blatant power grab.Another thing is that those who rebel are probably the remnants of the Ganelon/Thenardier faction.The previous civil war destroyed much of their power and even if they combined together,they'd have lost much of the previous strength,financial support and organization.

This is assuming that Ganelon's power base is no longer there. The problem is he did not really fight in the civil war except for that one instance with Count Greast. Those nobles under his thumb still probably are his supporters. There is also the surviving faction that used to support Thenardier, it would be unlikely that they will support Tigre when he comes calling. They will most likely support Ganelon after all, "Birds of a feather flock together".

There was a particular volume where Count Greast was sent back to Brune to gather together those who are already of a mind to rebel. In fact, an envoy from Queen Regin was sent to that port city to investigate the happenings.

We cannot also ignore the demonic power of Ganelon specially in his power of persuasion. He also got stronger after "eating" Baba.

Rather than flocking to Tigre's banner, a significant number of nobles who stood on the sidelines before will probably do the same thing again. As most nobles, they will mistakenly see Tigre's action as a play for the throne. Considering his pedigree, they will most likely oppose him if push comes to shove.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Armando99

This is assuming that Ganelon's power base is no longer there. The problem is he did not really fight in the civil war except for that one instance with Count Greast. Those nobles under his thumb still probably are his supporters. There is also the surviving faction that used to support Thenardier, it would be unlikely that they will support Tigre when he comes calling. They will most likely support Ganelon after all, "Birds of a feather flock together".

There was a particular volume where Count Greast was sent back to Brune to gather together those who are already of a mind to rebel. In fact, an envoy from Queen Regin was sent to that port city to investigate the happenings.

We cannot also ignore the demonic power of Ganelon specially in his power of persuasion. He also got stronger after "eating" Baba.

Rather than flocking to Tigre's banner, a significant number of nobles who stood on the sidelines before will probably do the same thing again. As most nobles, they will mistakenly see Tigre's action as a play for the throne. Considering his pedigree, they will most likely oppose him if push comes to shove.

It's one thing to stand on the sidelines if the King doesn't order you to do anything,it's another matter if he/she goes and orders you to act.If Regin goes and order them to put down the rebellion,they will be effectively seen as rebels if they don't go and do so.There's no excuse not to do so this time.Unless they plan to rebel to begin with,I doubt many would do so.The most they can do would be to drag their feet and send the minimal number of troops required by law to support Regin.

[Armando99]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

It's one thing to stand on the sidelines if the King doesn't order you to do anything,it's another matter if he/she goes and orders you to act.If Regin goes and order them to put down the rebellion,they will be effectively seen as rebels if they don't go and do so.There's no excuse not to do so this time.Unless they plan to rebel to begin with,I doubt many would do so.The most they can do would be to drag their feet and send the minimal number of troops required by law to support Regin.

Either way, it does not help Tigre much. Regin may not be able to exert pressure to anyone. We have to remember that she might be Queen in name only considering that all rulers prior to her had been Kings. That was why her father was not able to appoint her as heir without disguising her as a prince. Considering this, they are more likely to rebel and put a King , from their own, in her stead.

You have said as much from before.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Armando99

Either way, it does not help Tigre much. Regin may not be able to exert pressure to anyone. We have to remember that she might be Queen in name only considering that all rulers prior to her had been Kings. That was why her father was not able to appoint her as heir without disguising her as a prince. Considering this, they are more likely to rebel and put a King , from their own, in her stead.

You have said as much from before.

I see your point there,but the only male candidate is Ganelon's brother in law right?Will the Thenardier remnants be willing to join their group?

[Armando99]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

I see your point there,but the only male candidate is Ganelon's brother in law right?Will the Thenardier remnants be willing o join their group?

They are not definitely going to join Tigre's hence, Regin's side as well. The remnant's are still a very powerful force.

They may dislike Tigre bad enough that they will join Ganelon.


________

Going off topic, from an earlier volume, did anyone think that Roland, the Black Knight, deserved to die?

I realized that he was a knight and that they follow their liege lord's order but, when he decided to go against Tigre, he was also aware that the King was very ill and could not possibly have been responsible for the order he was given. He was also aware that the orders originated from Thenardier and yet he proceeded to do what he was told like the mindless oaf that he was, IMO. Regardless of his background story and the merits he had earned prior to his confrontation with Tigre, he threw it all out of the window. In fact, he did not even want to listen to the messengers that came from Tigre's side and just wanted to kill Tigre and to get it over with quickly.

I feel really bad of the way he died but at the same time, he was responsible for the death of many who were just fighting for their life and survival. He also lost many of his fellow knights that probably didn't deserve to die as well. At the end, I just told myself "Karma is a bitch isn't it".

Yes, he was realizing later on that maybe he was on the wrong side

[chad001]

Originally Posted by Moe Connection

EXACTLY!Officials who are both competent AND good are hard to come by.Right now,Tigre is able to find good people by his side because of luck,not because he is any good judge of character.

Ok, I'll give you that one. But from how he dealt with that assassin, I'm going to say that he's growing into it. He may not be great, but he's getting better at judging people.

[Prongs]

Originally Posted by Apoptosis

Spoiler for too long:

I've already mentioned this, but it takes more than military prowess to become king. And while Tigre is experienced as a lord, Alsace is rather small and low in population. Ruling an entire nation, and especially since people are claiming he's going to be ruling more than just Brune, is completely different from ruling over a population comprised of one capital city and four villages. And even though there are an abundance of capable tutors around him, he needs time, and a fair amount of it, to study everything he needs to rule a country, and even then it's not like he can handle everything from the get-go, he'd likely have someone else handle most of the more advanced matters for a while until he gets used to it. Royalty need to study politics, management, agriculture, etc. from when they're young, so Tigre won't be able to get everything he needs to know in only a few weeks. And from all the crap he has to deal with, from wars to demons to girls, he probably doesn't have much time to settle down and focus on studies.

I'm not saying he won't be a king in the future, but I don't understand how the story has advanced towards the likelihood of Tigre ascending to the throne of ANY nation at this point in time, nor do I see that Tigre is even ready to be a king, at this point in time at least.

.

sorry It's too hard to chew your reply (don't mad at me ) as English is not my native Lang...

I take it you missed my point's about king quality.

That he already displayed along the story.

You had a point here. but this is why I said you missed my point.

King quality It's not judge from experience and knowledge.

• but from his ability to make decision, to decide wichs action that his peer must do, take, work on it.
  
• to not let his emotion affect his judgement
  
• to stay calm in even worst situation
  
• to analyze
  
• to command, put an capable persons in, into his troop.
  
• to judge a people character

Yes Tigre is ready to rule a kingdom. what he must do.. no he will became king, when in time.... or when an Opportunity arises.

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Prongs

but from his ability to make decision, to decide wichs action that his peer must do, take, work on it.

Militarily yes,but he hasn't shown such abilities in economic,diplomatic or political spheres.

Originally Posted by Prongs

to not let his emotion affect his judgement

Partially.He disapproves of Tallard's methods but could not offer an alternative.I give him a plus though for not leaving Tallard immediately for that.

Originally Posted by Prongs

to stay calm in even worst situation

This is one of his pluses.

Originally Posted by Prongs

to analyze.

In a military context yes,but he hasn't shown any ability to analyze political,economic or diplomatic affairs.

Originally Posted by Prongs

to command, put an capable persons in, into his troop.

He can command,but he can only put a capable person in when the people around him are indeed capable.In other words,the AUTHOR spoon-fed Tigre with capable individuals.Tigre himself however does not seem to have the ability to find capable people.

Originally Posted by Prongs

to judge a people character[/LIST]

Utter fail for Tigre.Nearly everyone around him pointed out that he's so naive that's unbelievable.

Originally Posted by Prongs

Yes Tigre is ready to rule a kingdom. what he must do.. no he will became king, when in time.... or when an Opportunity arises.

He's not.


MOST IMPORTANTLY,THE MAN IS LAZY.

[black knight iust]

Aren't you forgetting that he is willing to shoot someone with an arrow if they abandon the battle like in vol. 5

[Ramero]

Originally Posted by black knight iust

Aren't you forgetting that he is willing to shoot someone with an arrow if they abandon the battle like in vol. 5

In Volume 5 It was a defected troops that Tigre is willing to shoot with. He don't want to take a chance for inside-out attack.

[Armando99]

I agree with the argument that Tigre is not ready, as he is, to rule any kingdom. He does lack some of the requisite skills to rule on a larger scale and outside of military affairs. He is lucky however and often times, lucky is better than being good.

IMO he does not need to be very skilled in ruling. His luck has already taken care of that need. He has, through sheer luck and his straightforward likeability, managed to surround himself with very capable women who are more than willing to teach and guide him where he is lacking.

We also have to take into consideration that he took over ruling Alsace at 14. By the time he met Ellen in the Field of Dinant, he has been running his holding for more than two years. Yes Alsace is a very small holding but the problems and issues he had to confront are basically the same as in a very large holding with some exception. Also prior to being sent to Asvarre as the Zchted secret envoy, he has been in the presence and alongside Ellen, and Lim as well, while she rules LeitMeritz. During that time, he was given training and instructions similar to an intern. Being an envoy in reality also helped tremendously in teaching him about foreign relations and diplomacy.

As we can see, he has been going through things that is helping him grow into a very capable ruler. He just needs a little more seasoning to apply what he has been taught. His wartime experience should not be taken for granted specially because he was put into the position of leadership. Running a war and being successful at it goes a long way towards gaining the ability in running a kingdom. One can argue that he was surrounded by very capable people which made it easier but he was also able to listen to different viewpoints and was able to make his own decision in the end. In my book, that is what makes a very capable manager/ruler. The very best CEO's in the most successful corporations were the ones that surrounded themselves with capable people to run the day to day operations for them.

[SeaDam]

You guys are killing me with this requirements to rule nonsense. As if there is some test...