[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[GuestSpeaker]

Slightly off-topic, but am I a terrible person for listening to all of Serial even after reading Umineko?

[Leslie Chow]

Slightly off-topic, but am I a terrible person for listening to all of Serial even after reading Umineko?

What is Serial?

After playing so much Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS lately, I am becoming more convinced that Black Battler is strongly connected to Tohya. Black truth as I have mentioned a few posts before is black text written by the author. Interestingly, if you lose against him with Beatrice, he will sometimes say to her "Sleep Beatrice, I will continue your stories." Taking into account EPs 1-2 being written by Beatrice, and EPs 3 - 6 being written by Tohya, the story of Beatrice is continued through Tohya's forgeries. Also keeping in mind that they were also written when Beatrice was already dead, which equates to sleeping. When you lose against him with Battler, he says to Battler "Sleep Battler. Leave Beato and your little sister to me". I take this as symbolic of Tohya taking care of Beatrice through therapy of writing the forgeries where through writing, he is slowly trying to accept what happened and coming into peace with Beatrice (somewhat connected to the very end of Umineko). The part where he says take care of Ange, could be symbolic of Tohya taking responsibility to meet Ange, to finally come to terms with leaving behind his life as Battler by meeting Ange, which he did in the end of EP8. Again, by leaving his life as Battler and treating him as dead, being dead equates to sleeping. When you beat B Battler, he says one out of three distinct quotes - "Everything is broken, but I'll come again. See you again, in the next nightmare". He also says in-match when you lose to him something like "The dream would continue". Also, if the meta-world is somewhat connected through what goes through Tohya's head, then it would explain why in one of the manga chapters of EP4, B Battler was drawn in the cover. This is because, as he tries to remember who he is, and when confronted with a question concerning whether or not he is the real Battler, he begins to think that he might be the culprit. With this in mind, Black Battler is a product of Tohya's fear of the possibility that he might be the culprit. Other potential hints that he is connected to Tohya is when he loses he says these lines

"... Strange. My arms, my legs, they won't listen to what I tell them" - Perhaps when he tried to commit suicide which confined him to a wheelchair, this is a reflection of his experience?

"*laughs*... I'm grateful. ... Now I can be released" - Perhaps when Tohya realized he is not the culprit it gave him a sense of relief and/or when he was done with forgeries and accepts his life as Battler is over?

I could even add that Tohya at one point may have had a nightmare of a Black Battler culprit theory being the truth of Rokkenjima that it led to his suicide attempt, which further makes sense that Black Battler is indeed a product of his nightmare as it is alluded throughout the game that he is some form of or part of a nightmare.

EDIT: Every character you pair up with B Battler, refer to him as "Battler-sama", which could mean Master Battler or Lord Battler. If I remember correctly, Sorcerer Battler was also referred to as such. It is interesting to note that in the opening of Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS that there is a dark silhouette of Sorcerer Battler next to the silhouette of normal Sorcerer Battler. Sorcerer Battler is a GM writing the scenario of the games, which is the same role as an author does when writing the forgeries. Since Tohya is a forgery author who more or less is represented through GM Sorcerer Battler, I can't help but think that B Battler is a GM of sorts, albeit through Tohya himself, representing Tohya's fear that he might be the culprit of the Rokken Island Massacre.

[Ayu-ayu]

I was just rereading through episode four's manga today when I was seized by a strange and perhaps crazy thought, though it may not be new or original (it's hard to keep up with all the ones out there!). I wanted to share it while it was still fresh, even if it may wind up in crack theory territory after considering more details later.

What if Ikuko and Tohya are BOTH Sayo?

At first I was thinking "what if Tohya was Sayo rather than Battler," but then by extension I began to become suspicious of Ikuko as well as being another one of Sayo's ever increasing cast of furniture.

That said, I'll have to reread all the relevant portions again now.

But this could also explain why Tohya avoided Ange for so long. And as we know Battler looks like a young Kinzo, it's not completely out of the question that an aged Sayo/Yasu (perhaps with the aid of their great make-up abilities) could look like an aged Battler and could make the memory loss and other excuses why they could not meet for so long. But we do know how Beatrice was able bring back the dead in her past games...

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

I was just rereading through episode four's manga today when I was seized by a strange and perhaps crazy thought, though it may not be new or original (it's hard to keep up with all the ones out there!). I wanted to share it while it was still fresh, even if it may wind up in crack theory territory after considering more details later.

What if Ikuko and Tohya are BOTH Sayo?

At first I was thinking "what if Tohya was Sayo rather than Battler," but then by extension I began to become suspicious of Ikuko as well as being another one of Sayo's ever increasing cast of furniture.

That said, I'll have to reread all the relevant portions again now.

But this could also explain why Tohya avoided Ange for so long. And as we know Battler looks like a young Kinzo, it's not completely out of the question that an aged Sayo/Yasu (perhaps with the aid of their great make-up abilities) could look like an aged Battler and could make the memory loss and other excuses why they could not meet for so long. But we do know how Beatrice was able bring back the dead in her past games...

Before the manga came out I've considered this possibility as it was pretty interesting that Sayo would survive, assume to be male, be given the identity of Tohya and so on but the manga clearly show that the person Ikuko found was dressed like Battler and his body figure is definitely like Battler and not like Kanon (tall, large shoulders, bigger hands) so I'll say he's definitely Battler.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

What is Serial?

After playing so much Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS lately, I am becoming more convinced that Black Battler is strongly connected to Tohya. Black truth as I have mentioned a few posts before is black text written by the author. Interestingly, if you lose against him with Beatrice, he will sometimes say to her "Sleep Beatrice, I will continue your stories." Taking into account EPs 1-2 being written by Beatrice, and EPs 3 - 6 being written by Tohya, the story of Beatrice is continued through Tohya's forgeries. Also keeping in mind that they were also written when Beatrice was already dead, which equates to sleeping. When you lose against him with Battler, he says to Battler "Sleep Battler. Leave Beato and your little sister to me". I take this as symbolic of Tohya taking care of Beatrice through therapy of writing the forgeries where through writing, he is slowly trying to accept what happened and coming into peace with Beatrice (somewhat connected to the very end of Umineko). The part where he says take care of Ange, could be symbolic of Tohya taking responsibility to meet Ange, to finally come to terms with leaving behind his life as Battler by meeting Ange, which he did in the end of EP8. Again, by leaving his life as Battler and treating him as dead, being dead equates to sleeping. When you beat B Battler, he says one out of three distinct quotes - "Everything is broken, but I'll come again. See you again, in the next nightmare". He also says in-match when you lose to him something like "The dream would continue". Also, if the meta-world is somewhat connected through what goes through Tohya's head, then it would explain why in one of the manga chapters of EP4, B Battler was drawn in the cover. This is because, as he tries to remember who he is, and when confronted with a question concerning whether or not he is the real Battler, he begins to think that he might be the culprit. With this in mind, Black Battler is a product of Tohya's fear of the possibility that he might be the culprit.

Well, Black Battler is likely connected to Tohya... but I think that, in a way he's more like his worst nightmare and, at the same time, something he has to accept to allow to live than anything else.

If we've to believe in what Tohya said he doesn't remember what happened on Rokkenjima so it can very well be he feared he was the culprit in Prime (Ep 4). At the same time in Ep 5 he made himself be the culprit to cover up for Sayo so even if he's sure he's not the culprit in the gameboard the same might not apply for Prime. Black Battler is, in a way, also the theory that Battler, instead than Sayo, Beatrice or Eva, was the culprit.
So if Beatrice dies against him he switches on being the assumed culprit.
I'll say BBattler is also Ange's nightmare.
We can also see Battler and BBattler as the two possibilities Tohya had. He could either be innocent or the culprit and if BBattler wins (and therefore it means Tohya is the culprit) yes, through Tohya he's taking care of Ange and Beato... where 'taking care' might not necessarily mean being good to them but just handling them one way or the other (for example by keeping on writing novels to ensure Beatrice will live and by keeping the truth hidden so Ange will never discover her brother was the culprit and survived to the tragedy).

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

Other potential hints that he is connected to Tohya is when he loses he says these lines

"... Strange. My arms, my legs, they won't listen to what I tell them" - Perhaps when he tried to commit suicide which confined him to a wheelchair, this is a reflection of his experience?

"*laughs*... I'm grateful. ... Now I can be released" - Perhaps when Tohya realized he is not the culprit it gave him a sense of relief and/or when he was done with forgeries and accepts his life as Battler is over?

I could even add that Tohya at one point may have had a nightmare of a Black Battler culprit theory being the truth of Rokkenjima that it led to his suicide attempt, which further makes sense that Black Battler is indeed a product of his nightmare as it is alluded throughout the game that he is some form of or part of a nightmare.

Honestly it'll be interesting if Battler actually did something wrong in Prime. He's generally portraied as a nice boy so it seems unlikely but interesting enough in Ep 7 Teaparty it was hinted that he was jealous... even though he let it drop.

I don't mean he took part to the whole massacre but... he too could have had his own dark side. After all Eva doesn't know what happened after she fainted. But well, I find difficult to think that Battler killed George as George was shot and Battler didn't have a weapon... and I don't think he could have killed in such a brutal way Jessica (though it would make more sense for him to do it that for Kyrie)... but well, he could have still ended up being involved in Rudolf and Kyrie's plan.

LOL, but probably that wasn't the case and I'm just reading too much into stuffs.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

EDIT: Every character you pair up with B Battler, refer to him as "Battler-sama", which could mean Master Battler or Lord Battler. If I remember correctly, Sorcerer Battler was also referred to as such. It is interesting to note that in the opening of Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS that there is a dark silhouette of Sorcerer Battler next to the silhouette of normal Sorcerer Battler. Sorcerer Battler is a GM writing the scenario of the games, which is the same role as an author does when writing the forgeries. Since Tohya is a forgery author who more or less is represented through GM Sorcerer Battler, I can't help but think that B Battler is a GM of sorts, albeit through Tohya himself, representing Tohya's fear that he might be the culprit of the Rokken Island Massacre.

Well, it could entirely be and I seem to remember if you switch his colour palette BBattler has the same colour palette as Tohya so I'll say this definitely hints at the two of them being connected, two sides of the same medal.

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by jjblue1

Before the manga came out I've considered this possibility as it was pretty interesting that Sayo would survive, assume to be male, be given the identity of Tohya and so on but the manga clearly show that the person Ikuko found was dressed like Battler and his body figure is definitely like Battler and not like Kanon (tall, large shoulders, bigger hands) so I'll say he's definitely Battler.

Right, but I'm suggesting that Ikuko is ALSO Sayo...which makes that part of the narrative suspect in turn.


My own immediate qualm with this crack theory though is I can't really see a motive for Sayo to have lived on afterwards and keep writing the stories, unless it is only targeted at Ange (and possibly Eva while she was alive)...which doesn't really make much sense at all as far as I can figure.

[Lombardest]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

I was just rereading through episode four's manga today when I was seized by a strange and perhaps crazy thought, though it may not be new or original (it's hard to keep up with all the ones out there!). I wanted to share it while it was still fresh, even if it may wind up in crack theory territory after considering more details later.

What if Ikuko and Tohya are BOTH Sayo?

At first I was thinking "what if Tohya was Sayo rather than Battler," but then by extension I began to become suspicious of Ikuko as well as being another one of Sayo's ever increasing cast of furniture.

That said, I'll have to reread all the relevant portions again now.

But this could also explain why Tohya avoided Ange for so long. And as we know Battler looks like a young Kinzo, it's not completely out of the question that an aged Sayo/Yasu (perhaps with the aid of their great make-up abilities) could look like an aged Battler and could make the memory loss and other excuses why they could not meet for so long. But we do know how Beatrice was able bring back the dead in her past games...

If Ikuko wasn't quite real that.... would make more appropiate the fact that she didn't age during those decades. Still, it was one of Ikuko's contacts who told Ange about the existence of the second author, and I think there was a well made distinction between Ikuko and Featherine as a way to differentiate the real world from the meta. So her being able to recognize Ikuko's presence and Tohya as his brother gives me very little reason to doubt she is seeing two real people

That means, even if someone was disguising as Tohya, Sayo couldn't be other than Ikuko (assuming she IS her of course) at the moment, because Sayo's abilities for disguises were related to two factors:
1. Her androginous body and biological ressemblance to Beatrice (Battler to the extent of emulating his voice, but definitley not his physique since he was much taller... and even that never actually happened in Prime)
2. Aside from Beatrice, she WAS the other personas, they weren't stolen identities/faces. Nobody else was impersonating the same thing as her at the same time so there was no point of comparison to imagine that an impostor existed.

[Lombardest]

Question: The knowledge of what Rosa did when she remembered the death of Beatrice II in EP3 had to come from somewhere. But I don't recall the EP7 tea party having a moment like that too... Didn't I pay attention? Could Tohya or Eva have learned it from another source or we can just assume that Rosa told them at some point?

[Ayu-ayu]

Originally Posted by Lombardest

Question: The knowledge of what Rosa did when she remembered the death of Beatrice II in EP3 had to come from somewhere. But I don't recall the EP7 tea party having a moment like that too... Didn't I pay attention? Could Tohya or Eva have learned it from another source or we can just assume that Rosa told them at some point?

I figure that either the info came to Sayo from when she was told by Genji what happened to her mother, or Battler could have learned it from Rosa in Prime.

[Lombardest]

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

I figure that either the info came to Sayo from when she was told by Genji what happened to her mother, or Battler could have learned it from Rosa in Prime.

Thing is, only Rosa herself should know it, everything Genji could see when he discovered the corpse from the scene was that Beato II fell to her death, but Rosa's involvement is something she never told to anyone.

[Leslie Chow]

Question: The knowledge of what Rosa did when she remembered the death of Beatrice II in EP3 had to come from somewhere. But I don't recall the EP7 tea party having a moment like that too... Didn't I pay attention?

Well EP7 Tea Party was "jumpy". Like we saw vital scenes of what happened, but also scenes such as Maria being killed was skipped. The only time Rosa could have told her siblings about the death of Beatrice II was during the time when they were trying to solve epitaph. But whether the scene of them solving it is complete or not is unknown. Alternatively, they could have been said during the scene when Beatrice was found in the golden room. For this I have two explanations:

Rosatrice:
Rosa revealed that she is Beatrice and told everyone everything (motive, message bottles, etc.), including the death of Beatrice II and what was shown in the Tea Party was her perspective, hence why she and Beatrice were portrayed as being separate.

Sayotrice:
Sayo revealed everything (message bottles, motive, etc.) and must've briefly mentioned the death of Beatrice II. Didn't necessarily had to say "Rosa did it", but the siblings could have pinpointed Rosa as the only candidate to have had sent her out, since she was the only sibling to have lived at the island at the time.

Could Tohya or Eva have learned it from another source or we can just assume that Rosa told them at some point?

According to Prof. Ootsuki in EP4, Eva apparently sold some forgeries that had only one copy in the world. It is possible that EP3 is a mix of said documents and what Tohya wrote. Beatrice could have had made extra copies of the message bottles she sent to the sea, and Eva in Prime could have had taken a copy or two of the message bottles in the golden room. As for Tohya, it really depends on the manga ending at this point. It could be that Beatrice survived and told him everything. Or he could have even found CotGW somehow, read in the way to Nijima, suffered amnesia, found by Ikuko who took the message bottle from him. There could have even be an extra page or something from CotGW that could have had at least mentioned the death of Beatrice II, which allowed him to deduce that Rosa was the only one who could have been with Beatrice II at the time. But if the meeting with Ange and the ending would still be the same in manga, my theory is that the world where Tohya Hachijo existed could be a mix of EP2 and Prime, hence why Tohya knew everything, suffered the headaches because he gained memories of a Battler that only existed in the message bottles (think Higurashi Tsumihoroboshi-hen and Minagoroshi-hen when the characters start remembering memories of their previous lives in other worlds), since EP2 is the only arc Battler could have had learned everything. The only weakness of this theory would be an analysis of Forgery XXX and its sequel Battler/Kanon story mode (at least meta-wise) and to an extent Minagoroshi-hen manga version chapter one, where it is already established early on that Bernkastel is already a witch, which contrary to interviews and what was established in the story, Bernkastel became a witch supposedly AFTER the events of Higurashi and separated from Rika in Saikoroshi-hen.

Right, but I'm suggesting that Ikuko is ALSO Sayo...which makes that part of the narrative suspect in turn.

My own immediate qualm with this crack theory though is I can't really see a motive for Sayo to have lived on afterwards and keep writing the stories, unless it is only targeted at Ange (and possibly Eva while she was alive)...which doesn't really make much sense at all as far as I can figure.

This somewhat reminds me of the future world and meta-world theory provided by KNM, since in Forgery XXX, which is suggested to have taken place before October 1986, Tohya was mentioned, so would it be possible that everything about Ange and the future is fictional that could have had been written by Ikuko (or if taking into consideration Forgery XXX, by Beatrice/Sayo) as well?

So I'd like to ask everyone to what they think of KNM's future world and meta-world theory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqp3hMV6_fE#t=50m22s

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Lombardest

Question: The knowledge of what Rosa did when she remembered the death of Beatrice II in EP3 had to come from somewhere. But I don't recall the EP7 tea party having a moment like that too... Didn't I pay attention? Could Tohya or Eva have learned it from another source or we can just assume that Rosa told them at some point?

Rosa confessed what had happened in Ep 7, although not in the teaparty.
The manga introduced the fact there was also a message bottle which contained Sayo's confession and that one likely contained Rosa's story as Genji knew it and related it to Sayo.
The bottle then ended up into possession of the Hachijo duo and they likely used it as source of informations.
The knowledge of Beatrice II's existence might have become public knowledge after the Rokkenjima explosion as Kuwabata knew of Kuwadorian and of the fact that a woman lived there and Beatrice II likely had more servants than just Kumasawa so one of them might have talked... even if they might not have known Beatrice's true identity and how she ended up meeting Rosa.

Of course it's possible that Rosa mentioned it to her siblings in a way similar to Ep 3 in Prime... but the scene in the Teaparty is much more calmer and the siblings tackle the epitaph as a way to pass time, not as a urgent matter and there's not any particular reaction when they say Beatrice (they don't think that she's the Beatrice Rosa met that somehow survived or something along the line) so I think this story doesn't figure in Eva's diary.
Contrary to what Ep 2 & 3 show us Rosa might have removed completely her memory about Beatrice or merely she doesn't feel like talking about it.

Originally Posted by Lombardest

Thing is, only Rosa herself should know it, everything Genji could see when he discovered the corpse from the scene was that Beato II fell to her death, but Rosa's involvement is something she never told to anyone.

No, actually the night of the incident due to her guilt Rosa couldn't sleep and phoned to Genji, confessing everything. He knew about her involvement.

Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu

Right, but I'm suggesting that Ikuko is ALSO Sayo...which makes that part of the narrative suspect in turn.


My own immediate qualm with this crack theory though is I can't really see a motive for Sayo to have lived on afterwards and keep writing the stories, unless it is only targeted at Ange (and possibly Eva while she was alive)...which doesn't really make much sense at all as far as I can figure.

While it could be that Sayo kept on writing her tales out of enjoyement or wish to be understood then her being Ikuko and Battler makes everything way too suspect. We would have to think not only that the whole Tohya's backstory is fantasy but also that the meeting Ange had with Tohya and Ikuko is fantasy as well.

So honestly while I can see the charm of this theory (Sayo surviving, taking another identity and then creating another fantasy character to keep her company and basing it on the chance Battler might have survived as well) as far as I'm involved it ends up erasing too much narrative without a real reason or an improvement in the story.

I mean... if Tohya's just Sayo's fantasy his struggle to recover his memory and his guilt toward Ange exist purely for Sayo's amusement. He's not a real person... as Jessica Rabbit would say 'he was only drawn that way'.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

According to Prof. Ootsuki in EP4, Eva apparently sold some forgeries that had only one copy in the world. It is possible that EP3 is a mix of said documents and what Tohya wrote. Beatrice could have had made extra copies of the message bottles she sent to the sea, and Eva in Prime could have had taken a copy or two of the message bottles in the golden room.

Uh? I can't remember nor find this part. I remember Eva sold the library that was in Kuwadorian and that the library contained books and document about magic... not that she sold forgeries. In fact what Eva sold had historical value and left the autorities in the field astounded.

This however caused Rokkenjima's reputation as the witch's island to grow and when a forgery was found by a fisherman and the police confirmed they had found another basically the popularity of Rokkenjima as the witch island skyrocket.

But I can't find anything saying Eva owned some of the forgeries and the manga tells us Sayo tossed them all in the sea.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

This somewhat reminds me of the future world and meta-world theory provided by KNM, since in Forgery XXX, which is suggested to have taken place before October 1986, Tohya was mentioned, so would it be possible that everything about Ange and the future is fictional that could have had been written by Ikuko (or if taking into consideration Forgery XXX, by Beatrice/Sayo) as well?

So I'd like to ask everyone to what they think of KNM's future world and meta-world theory:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqp3hMV6_fE#t=50m22s

I wish I could offer an opinion but I'm not an English speaker and I've to much trouble figuring out what's being said to express an opinion. I need written text to understand what's being said.

[Mali]

I wish I could offer an opinion but I'm not an English speaker and I've to much trouble figuring out what's being said to express an opinion. I need written text to understand what's being said.

shorter than the videos and written:
https://sites.google.com/site/ralphm...neko-explained
It's mainly abaout Rosatrice. I don't know there the world's theory is.

Sayo surviving, taking another identity and then creating another fantasy character to keep her company and basing it on the chance Battler might have survived as well

You think it's charming like creating a illusion of Kinzo or Beatrice? (Ok not good relation) I thought these and the ending were pretty tragic in the end
But Ikuko and Sayo have many things in common. If Ikuko's true age were told and it happened to be around 28 - 31, readers would merely and simply believe she is Sayo who survived. Plus Tohja it makes somehow sense
Other similitaries but with a lesser extend can be observed:
Battler and Will, Sayo (who loved mysteries) and Erika, etc.

I'll say BBattler is also Ange's nightmare.

If only Battler came back she would eventually suspect him as well (I think). Yes it would be better he went missing and come back after a decade.

[Leslie Chow]

While it could be that Sayo kept on writing her tales out of enjoyement or wish to be understood then her being Ikuko and Battler makes everything way too suspect. We would have to think not only that the whole Tohya's backstory is fantasy but also that the meeting Ange had with Tohya and Ikuko is fantasy as well.

So honestly while I can see the charm of this theory (Sayo surviving, taking another identity and then creating another fantasy character to keep her company and basing it on the chance Battler might have survived as well) as far as I'm involved it ends up erasing too much narrative without a real reason or an improvement in the story.

I mean... if Tohya's just Sayo's fantasy his struggle to recover his memory and his guilt toward Ange exist purely for Sayo's amusement. He's not a real person... as Jessica Rabbit would say 'he was only drawn that way'.

Battler/Kanon story mode in Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS suggest that Forgery XXX took place before the Rokkenjima Incident of 1986. This is because Beatrice at the end says something along the lines, "When will you come back Battler?". Not only that, but even before the murders took place in that forgery, among the tales that B Battler mentioned, there was also Bernkastel's game, so this somewhat suggest that perhaps Bernkastel is also a fictional character within Umineko and that in reality, Sayo must've wrote everything to begin with. B Battler in addition mentions Tohya Hachijo by name, telling him to try and stop him. Hence, why the likelihood of Tohya's backstory being fictional is fairly high.

Uh? I can't remember nor find this part. I remember Eva sold the library that was in Kuwadorian and that the library contained books and document about magic... not that she sold forgeries. In fact what Eva sold had historical value and left the autorities in the field astounded.

This however caused Rokkenjima's reputation as the witch's island to grow and when a forgery was found by a fisherman and the police confirmed they had found another basically the popularity of Rokkenjima as the witch island skyrocket.

But I can't find anything saying Eva owned some of the forgeries and the manga tells us Sayo tossed them all in the sea.

I might've remembered wrong then.

shorter than the videos and written:
https://sites.google.com/site/ralphm...neko-explained
It's mainly abaout Rosatrice. I don't know there the world's theory is.

It's incomplete and doesn't even have Part 4. But you can get the gist of Rosatrice with this at least, but it sort of ties up with Part 4 as well, so if one were to try to look at Rosatrice in full detail, they'd have to look at Part 4.

If only Battler came back she would eventually suspect him as well (I think). Yes it would be better he went missing and come back after a decade.

What is interesting is that in Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS, if you play as Black Battler and you face off against Eva-Beatrice, he says something like wanting to get out of the cat box, to which EVA would reply "I won't let you get to where Ange is". Perhaps Eva was aware of Battler's survival afterwards (even his amnesia or probably Ikuko and CotGW), but for some reason did not want Ange to meet him (maybe his state in mind)?

[jjblue1]

Originally Posted by Mali

shorter than the videos and written:
https://sites.google.com/site/ralphm...neko-explained
It's mainly abaout Rosatrice. I don't know there the world's theory is.

Thank you, this is useful!

Originally Posted by Mali

You think it's charming like creating a illusion of Kinzo or Beatrice? (Ok not good relation) I thought these and the ending were pretty tragic in the end
But Ikuko and Sayo have many things in common. If Ikuko's true age were told and it happened to be around 28 - 31, readers would merely and simply believe she is Sayo who survived. Plus Tohja it makes somehow sense
Other similitaries but with a lesser extend can be observed:
Battler and Will, Sayo (who loved mysteries) and Erika, etc.

What I was finding charming was the theory, not the action of creating an illusion of Tohya.
While I'm all for having Ikuko being Sayo I strongly fear that's not the case. But well, I'll hope till the last moment.

Originally Posted by Mali

If only Battler came back she would eventually suspect him as well (I think). Yes it would be better he went missing and come back after a decade.

Well, it really depends. She might decide to revuse any possible implication Battler could be the culprit even when evidence would suggest otherwise or she can end up just finding him responsible.

After all, even if we're told that BBattler has no motive, in truth it wasn't like Battler's relationship with his family was perfect. The media would fully exploit it to build up a motive so that he would look even more suspicious.

Technically Battler never comes back. It's Tohya who does but after 12 years from the incident he's still refusing to meet Ange. We don't really know when their meeting finally took place as the text only implied time went by and it could be the two are pretty old.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

Battler/Kanon story mode in Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS suggest that Forgery XXX took place before the Rokkenjima Incident of 1986. This is because Beatrice at the end says something along the lines, "When will you come back Battler?". Not only that, but even before the murders took place in that forgery, among the tales that B Battler mentioned, there was also Bernkastel's game, so this somewhat suggest that perhaps Bernkastel is also a fictional character within Umineko and that in reality, Sayo must've wrote everything to begin with. B Battler in addition mentions Tohya Hachijo by name, telling him to try and stop him. Hence, why the likelihood of Tohya's backstory being fictional is fairly high.

Well, Beatrice might say that because that story took place in 1986 but was just the written text like in Our Confession. Also if I'm not wrong the Battler/Kanon story ends up with Battler being the culprit. So it could be that culprit Battler in Beato's eyes is the same as Battler not being Battler but a stranger who took Ushiromiya Battler's name (see ep 4).

After all we know that Sayo wrote her forgeries in 1986 so it would be weird for her to place the story in a timezone prior to it... but at the same time as she wrote them Battler wasn't back yet.

Honestly I'm not even sure Forgery xxx and the Kanon/Battler storyline are the same story. The Kanon/Battler storyline might be Land or Trinity for all we know as BBattler seems to be a weaker existence in it (he doesn't even have red eyes).

About Bernkastel... I've no idea. This touches the old point of 'how much of the magic/meta scene is in the forgeries' that never got a solution. But the fact that Bern's game is mentioned makes me think that this forgery is post Twilight and BBattler's dialogue seems to imply he's written by someone else that's not Tohya and that's a poor writer as he's not even giving him a motive... which ultimately makes it a forgery from some other person who read Tohya's books.

But well, it might be just me.

Originally Posted by Leslie Chow

What is interesting is that in Ougon Musou Kyoku CROSS, if you play as Black Battler and you face off against Eva-Beatrice, he says something like wanting to get out of the cat box, to which EVA would reply "I won't let you get to where Ange is". Perhaps Eva was aware of Battler's survival afterwards (even his amnesia or probably Ikuko and CotGW), but for some reason did not want Ange to meet him (maybe his state in mind)?

Well, you know I'd love to know what went on between Battler and Eva on Rokkenjima. Eva might have very well suspected him of being a culprit along with his parents... or he could have done the same Jessica did in Ep 3, thinking she was the culprit and jumping on her... which might have scared Eva.

Of course it's possible Eva-Beatrice is merely referring to the Battler-Culprit-Theory and not to Battler. BBattler is, after all, the personification of that theory as well as Eva Beatrice is the personification of the Eva-Culprit-theory... which Eva allowed to survive so that Ange won't have to suspect of her family.

[Inbuiltx9]

Guys I warn you beforehand, I will hijack the forum now. This is gonna be a long ass text , so I apologize in advance. But this may be the solution, this time for real, and I gotta admit, I worte a lot of bull*** before. So if you think its tl;dr- I dont mind anymore. Im already happy with texting it. Im finishing the text offline right now, and will only copy paste it here, so dont wonder about this extra post please.

[AuraTwilight]

You know, you could always use spoiler tags by paragraph and subject, like

Spoiler for The Culprit's identity:

example

or

Spoiler for The meaning of the logic error:

example

or whatever. It'd make your posts a lot less unreasonable. As it is I haven't been able to parse a single thing you've written for the past ten pages because it's a big spastic mess.

[Inbuiltx9]

@ everyone, I really!! would like you to take a look at the following text, please, at least read until the the part about the first scene is over. Because this is now highly likely the truth. If I didnt write in a forum right now Id even write "definitely". What the meta is, what Beatos goal is, what the meaning of the ending is, this is all already shown in the first 4 games. Its like every scene we see in the games is part of the puzzle. Again: this is not me being f*** up, I would have preferred something different too and I could almost cry because of this shit! T_T Especially because I was so wrong with hating Beato so much This is turning the games upside down! Completely! And the thing "without love etc...." makes absolute sense now.
A few words beforehand: I don’t know if someone posted this theory already, I had to write this text offline again. So please just read it and I apologize if theres some obvious stuff included. In the beginning, for you to read it, I even wont force my interpretation on you – what Im making out of it will come later, but Imo the first scene I mention is so important that you should try to integrate it into your own theories somehow, even if your solution should differ from mine.

First scene

1)I want to once again remind you what was said at the end of ep 5: Im quoting all the important scenes now, so this text will be a huge collection of quotation, please bear with me! Ill put them all in spoiler tags, so the text will take less space in the forum. But I really hope youll read them, because Ill mark the important sentences.

Battler when Natsuhi is accused of being the culprit:

Spoiler for quotation VN:

But that was in elementary school, and I was made fun of and laughed at. So I thought it was embarrassing to think that a society lived on the moon….and I threw away that ‘belief”. I ve been told by a book my mom read me that rabbits lived on the back side of the moon, so I’d believed that for a long time. But when everyone said that I was wrong, I abandoned that truth without even trying to check it! Even without evidence, I abandoned the truth I believed in…!

Later ep 5 – while making Natsuhi the culprit:

Spoiler for quotation VN:

Battler: Even without evidence, Erikas words sound reasonable, so theyre probably the truth…? And that’s why youre throwing away your ‘belief’ that Natsuhi oba-san is innocent despite a lack of proof?!

Battler to Virgilia: If no one will believe…then I will…! […]No matter how much she tries to make us believe that Natsuhi oba-san is the culprit, I believe that she isn’t! I wont abandon that belief!

Notice the irony with ep 7 tea party, where everyone believed Kyrie and Rudolf were the culprits- Ill come to that later

Ep 5, Beato when Gaap etc. say she should give up on Natuhi:

Spoiler for quotation VN:

“…My apologies….but I cannot do that….I know the strength of a man who believed even though everyone said he was wrong…and I know the suffering he went through when he was forced to abandon that belief…!
….I cant lose. The truth isn’t something anyone gets to deny. When you doubt and abandon it yourself, it disappeeeeeeeears!!”
I wont abandon her! Even if everyone believes that Natsuhi is the culprit, I will still claim that I, the witch, am the culprit…!!! If I cant even make that claim, my existence isn’t worth anything…!

Battler ep 5 still when Natsuhi is accused:

Spoiler for quotation VN:

“Its like…those witches are distorting things so that they match with an outline Erikas drawn up….”Virgilia: “That’s right. If the Game Master, Lady Lambdadelta, accepts a truth, its authenticity will not be questioned. The world that comes after will be formed based on the final remaining truth…This happens no matter how far this final truth is from the real truth.”

Battler later, after Virgilia gave him the red truth that Natsuhi isn’t the culprit:

Spoiler for quot vn:

I just have the truth that Natsuhioba-san isn’t the culprit…without any basis or evidence. Its small, but it’s a sparkling red truth.

Ep 5 Battler realized what will happen if he uses this truth:

Spoiler for quot vn:

Im going to disappear, aren’t I…From what the witches have said in the past, I can faintly imagine the place ‘pieces’ are sent when theyre banished.. Its known as the depths of oblivion…an eternal darkness that lies on the far side of an eternal oblivion and where there is no concept of life or death….
As long as Beato remains, no matter how suspicious Natsuhi oba-san is…there will always remain space for the witch to be the culprit…in other words, room for Natsuhi oba-san to not be the culprit.

He still loses completely:

Spoiler for quot vn:

“….Huh….? My….red truth….was blown away by Dlanors red longsword.

Beato to Battler after that:

Spoiler for quot vn:

….See…? …Real truth….is a very fragile thing….Does real truth exist…? And is it necessary…?...Even without it…the tale will continue on….

Battler is stabbed with Dlanors sword right through his chest. Dlanor:

Spoiler for quote vn:

After that, all that remained was the corpse of this sorrowful man, pierced by the sword that acted as a massive, red grave marker.Dlanors massive longsword, which had been left in place of a tombstone….fastened Battler to the spot even after his death….After being defeated in a fight over the truth and surrendering, he no longer had the strength to think of a way to resist. That’s…what made him dead.
No….in this place, the concept of death means nothing except that one has stopped thinking. Therefore, in a sense, Battler was not dead.

Ok, now here are still some manga-scenes that relate to that:

http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/23/67
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/23/72
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/23/73

and episode 3:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/19/52
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/19/53
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/19/55

The point here is:
-Battler despairs when he uses his own truth and that is denied. In ep 5 and in ep 3 hes stabbed through his chest or shot right through the heart, when he learns that someone from his family is the culprit.
-And Beatos comments show that she experienced something similar beforehand.And she doesn’t want that to happen again – she wont let a human be the culprit. And she fights for the real truth, after all, Natsuhi IS innocent.
-After having the red truth “stabbed” into him, Battler stops thinking and is in a state similar to death
-there was a time battler abandoned some belief

Ill leave the interpretation for later, because now comes the most important part!


2)Its absolutely necessary for you to take a look at the VN. I linked a video, the scene starts from 4:44:43, that’s the scene where Ange discovers the truth, and it still goes on until 5:32:00. Only the Ange stuff is important now, you can jump the Ikuko stuff.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dd2l...ORh2d3ccoOQmAu

Or else, if you dont want to look again at the video, I quote the text here:

Ange after opening the book of the Single Truth, when she learns the truth about who the culprits are:

Spoiler for quote ep:

“Of course. This was…my own blank and empty notebook […] One after another, students with goat heads grew out of shadows all over the room. The slipped around all the students stopped in time…and gathered around me. Then they all jeered out something in unison, and, possibly aware that I could hear, showered me with giggles and gossip and sneers. However, nothing that came from the goats mouths reached my ears as words. This was a world without letters or words, …so no words reached me. However, their emotions and meanings did reach me. So, I knew what it was they were saying. And then, when I was able to visualize it, …this happened…One after another, the goats opened their massive jaws, showing their fangs that dripped with saliva…and came forward to bite me.Time was stopped for me. I was aware, but I could not move.Literally that wasn’t true.However, I was pretending that I couldn’t hear…so I couldn’t move. The goats bit me all over my body, leaving their fang marks, licking me.Maybe they didn’t like the tast of my clothes.Taking advantage of the fact that I couldn’t move,….they chewed through my clothes one by one.Over and over again,…the goats stuck their tongues, their jaws, their fangs into my naked body. I was covered with drool and bitten all over. Bright red teeth marks were left behind as sharpfangs pierced my skin, leaving trails of blood.They licked up that blood like real goats,…hurting and humiliating me.
As I hung my head, one of the goats pulled on my hair, forcing me to look up and spoke.It wasn’t a direct concept, but with words I could hear.However, they weren’t words of the human world.They were witch’s words. The red truth, which signifies absolute truth.
[This is…the truth of the Rokkenjima incident!!] "I wont accept it." [It doesn’t matter if you accept it our not!! This is the truth!! After all, Rudolf and Kyrie killed…..!!”] "I wont accept it, I wont!...I wont accept a truth like that…like that…[…]Who cares about the truth, so stupid, so pointless…! Im the one who gets to decide if that’s the truth or not, right? Even if its red truth, I wont acknowledge it, wont forgive it, I definitely wont accept it…!! The red truth is absolute?! Who is it absolute for?! Its absolute for you guys, right? Not for me!! I wont let you contaminate my truth with yours!!Hahahaha, ahahahahah!! My truth is that Eva oba-sans the culprit!! […]Dad and Mom and Onii-chan and all the others are just victims…!! Its no ones fault, no ones fault…!! […]Im the right one, Ill deny the red truth, deny the whole world!

Ange then jumps from the building:

Spoiler for quote vn:

Just like how the death of a single lonely girl who rejected the world…didn’t matter to anyone in the world.[…]Is it even conceivable that she wouldn’t die instantly after something like that? Could it be that, by some impossible miracle, she really had escaped an instant death? EVA was looking down at the beautiful flower of blood radiating from Anges corpse. EVA: “Even this…is a choice for you to make….Ange. I tried to give you a chance to live….However, you didn’t truly make an effort to live in the future that began after the age of six….And so, after 12 years, you’ve finally returned to where you started.” The eyes of Anges corpse…were closed.However, there was no way of knowing If this was a peaceful thing. […]Eventually the corpse began to melt away. At the end, it had become a messy lump of flesh, with only a few parts recognizable as human. EVA: “You managed to die…However, this doesn’t mean that everyone will be waiting for you in heaven…After all, you reached this place rejecting all those in heaven. ….<See you in hell>. No, that’s probably where we are right now…So long, Ange”.
Even in this miserable form…Anges soul…was still living. Perhaps ‘living’ is a poor description. She…was unable to die. From now on, forver. She would drift along in the deepest depths of oblivion, covered by the dust of oblivion, until she finally…disappeared. She continued to question herself. What did the truth mean to her? What was right, and where was the place she could call home…?As her flesh began to cool, even the energy to ask these questions..began to fade…Eventually…she would forget her everyday memories, and even the reason why she was suffering. However, there was one thing she would never forget. That was…the anguish. From this point forth…she would suffer endlessly without even knowing why.By the time the cats finished flinging her corpse into the bucket and dumping it into the sea of nothingness…Ange had forgotten even her own name….”

And she wakes up in the Golden Land:

Spoiler for quote vn:

“Ange! Ange!” “Please, please say something…!! Voices…Voices calling to me. Dad…and Mom…It cant be…In 1986…on Rokkenjima…Mom and Dad…”Ange, hang in there…! Can you hear Daddys voice…?!””Please, say something!! Ange!!”” …Dad, Mom…Ill…say it out loud…""Ange…!! Ange, thank goodness….!!"I could feel my body being lifted up firmly…and hugged roughly….Mom and Dad…were hugging me…Me eyelids have been open for a while now, I could feel the light slowly returning to my eyes. Just like your eyes get used to the dark,…my eyes got used to the light,…and bit by bit, the scene around me came into view. However, it was an unusual sight, which seemed to be very far away. My body…was being hugged by Dad and Mom. Dad was sniffling, his face covered with tears. There were tears in Moms eyes too as she hugged me tight. It was…so strong that it hurt a bit. They held me with all their strength. Me, the bad kid who wasn’t obedient, who always had an excuse,…and who always tried to do the opposite if what her parents said….They held me tight, to make sure I didn’t head down the wrong path….As my eyes adjusted, I could see other people standing beside my parents. Everyone was there.

Beato: “You were fortunare…By chance, we found you drifting in the waves of the sea of emptiness….You were in a terrible state…It took much time to make you remember your true form.”Ange: “Beatrice…So this is…” Beato: The Golden Land….Your whole family has been waiting here for you to return (!!!return!!!). … We knew you would come home.” Ange: “Did I…come home because I was supposed to…?...Ill…go back to how Im supposed to be, and then…” Rudolf: No, you did come home." Kyrie: "That’s right. You made it back here because you wanted to come home to us." Ange:…Dad…Mom……I….” “You don’t need to say anything…You’ve been on a great and terrible journey, haven’t you?...You took that journey all by yourself…You understand now, don’t you? You wont forget again?...This is…a place you can always call home. Hot tears fell onto my face. They were Dads and Moms tears... Eva: “’All right’—might not be the best way to put it…But Im so glad. Glad you came home.Feel free to hate me as much as you want. Give your Dad and Mom a million kisses…Give a kiss to everyone who cared about you so much….” Kyrie: “And say Im home to your other mother." Ange to Eva: “If only…Id called you that on that day…I might never have messed up… We might have been able…to create a new world togheter….Mom…Always…and until the end…you were my closest friend…”
The two of them hugged each other quietly….burying their faces in the others shoulders and sobbing. […] Back when I only ever tried to see the truth of the past, I was nothing more than a ghost trapped in that past. I will…live…And Ive remembered how much everyone loved me…Because I was young and selfish, I didn’t even remember until now [how kind my family was]. And yet, because I was young and cruel, I never tried to remember any of that. Everyone was distorted by my irresponsible imagination…and I completely forgot the truth…Now, I can remember clearly, and I understand. I went up to each and every one of them…to greet them, thank them, and apologize.[…]To thank the cousins for always playing with me even though I was so selfish….And, I thanked and apologized to the fantasy creatures.”

Beato: …All of it is my fault. The message bottle I threw away half-jokingly caused a distortion in your future and wore you down.. […]It isn’t your fault Beato. No matter how many people around me had their baseless suspicions…there should’ve been only one truth inside me. And yet, so easily,..I abandoned my warm memories of all of you,…and surrenedered my heart to them.” Beato insists its her fault. Ange: “….Yeah, youre right. You were at fault, and so was I…Still, itd be stupid for us to attack each other. ….After all, Im a witch of the future. You are a witch of the past. I will create my own future.[…] That’s right….As the final member of Mariage Sorciere…its my responsibility to pass on Onee-chans magic.

Ep 8 Battler to Ange when they confront Bern:

Spoiler for quote vn:

“Ange…You believed that someone from your family would come back some day, lived that way for 12 years…and then lost your spirit. For a time, you surrendered to the miracle that refused to happen.

If you managed to read the whole text in detail, there are some things that are very striking. But I first want to show some pages of the manga again:

Manga ep 3:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...episode-3/20/8
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...episode-3/20/9
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/20/10
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/20/11
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/20/12

manga ep 8:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...lden-witch/9/9

manga ep 3 after Eva shot Battler:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...i-episode-3/20
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...episode-3/20/2

I think I don’t even have to mention it anymore now. Its just 1+1 … I said I wouldnt force my interpretation on you, but if you please insert Battlers name for Anges in the scene after Ange opened the diary and when she wakes up in the Golden Land, and Beato instead of EVA/Eva, everything falls into place. The whole scene after Ange read the diary is how it happened with Battler , the scene in the Golden Land is happening at the end of Episode 5 after he reached the truth. Remember how he apologized when he came back to the game board? The same as “Ange” did in the scene mentioned above? The difference is only minimal, concerning Beato. Cause in the respective scene with Battler, she obviously couldnt have been there. And also she did something for him that she didnt do for Ange. Also there are some sentences in this scene if you think it refers only to Ange that you might not understand if you don’t see that this is all Battlers story.

And most importantly!!! What completely !!!! (there cant be enough exclamation marks) changes the meaning of Beatos games…well you can see it here:

Ep 2 what George says:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...episode-2/22/6

Ep 2, what Rosa says:
http://www.mangareader.net/879-58360...hapter-20.html
http://www.mangareader.net/879-58360...hapter-20.html

what rosa says in the middle about a performance:
http://www.mangareader.net/879-58361...hapter-21.html

what battler thinks:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...episode-2/25/5

Ep 1 how Natsuhi reacts:
http://www.mangareader.net/557-36737...hapter-16.html
http://www.mangareader.net/557-36737...hapter-16.html

and what she says:
http://www.mangareader.net/557-44361...hapter-18.html

Oh, maybe this scene can be understood better now:
http://www.mangareader.net/557-44361...hapter-18.html

and of course ep 4 when Battler realized that everyone acts as if they were in a play:
http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...6/c027/15.html
http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...6/c027/16.html

also ep 1, the reaction of his family:
http://www.mangareader.net/557-34563...hapter-13.html
http://www.mangareader.net/557-34563...hapter-13.html

or jessicas reaction and marias
http://www.mangareader.net/557-36537...hapter-15.html
http://www.mangareader.net/557-36537...hapter-15.html
http://www.mangareader.net/557-36537...hapter-15.html

[Inbuiltx9]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

You know, you could always use spoiler tags by paragraph and subject, like

Spoiler for The Culprit's identity:

example

or

Spoiler for The meaning of the logic error:

example

or whatever. It'd make your posts a lot less unreasonable. As it is I haven't been able to parse a single thing you've written for the past ten pages because it's a big spastic mess.

Excuse me for being rude now, but even I have my limits:
Youre too kind my dear. Actually I couldnt care less if you personally have been able to read my posts or not since you obviously werent able to parse a single thing from Umineko either, if you honestly post stuff like "why should the content of the games refer to Prime?". If someones interested in it he can read it. I write for these people, and there are always some readers who dont write. Youre not interested in it, so I dont write for you. And thanks for the completely unnecessary info, I already used them. Now I even had to interrupt my post to reply to something like that...

[Inbuiltx9]

I said I would not force my theory on you, from this point on Ill just explain a bit, later there are other important implications, so if youd go on reading, Id be very happy. But first my explanation for these facts. Please bear with me a bit, I will explain later where the details are shown:

Giving up your own truth and the subsequent fall into the depth of oblivion

My understanding: At some point someone told Battler the “truth” (-> its not the truth) about what happened on Rokkenjima. Battler had one belief until then: that was that someone from his family would come back to him. Yes, this is not only Anges wish. And when he heard of the same “truth” that Ange reads in ep 8, he abandoned his belief. And whats worse- he abandons his one truth about his family and how kind they were.. Its no wonder, he was away for 6 years after all:

Ep 6: first panel:
http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...6/c026/31.html

Ep 8 Ange:

Spoiler for vn quote:

“That’s right. Im looking for the truth so I can die….At least let me choose how I go…."

Ep 4 Look at what battler about his weak-mindedness says:
http://mangafox.me/manga/umineko_no_...6/c026/43.html

At the end of Ep 4, Ange to Battler:

Spoiler for quote vn:

"Dont talk stupid! You are Ushiromiya Battler, no one else! No matter who acknowledges that or denies that, make sure you believe it yourself...!! You know, you are the only one who can create your own world. Did Asumu okaa-san ever let you feel lonely? Never, right?! Dont throw away your peaceful family away so easily!! Your family bonds have gotten too thin after leaving your family for six years!!
You have to feel those family bonds much, much more strongly! Remember!! For Asumu okaa-sans sake as well, dont lose your affection over a foolish witchs rant like this!
Battler:
...Youre right...Mom was...always on my side...Where is this place...?...Its dark...I want to go home...Wheres, all of my...family...?

And because the “truth” that he heard about Kyrie and Rudolf murdering everyone out of greed was “plausible”, he assumed that this was the truth. He easily gave up on his own truth that they could never murder everyone out of greed because he was weak-minded. And by that he replaced his truth with another one, the real truth was denied – something that Beato tries to stop from happening a second time in the court against Natsuhi.
Anyways, if you want to use the metaphor umineko uses, you could say the red truth was shot at his heart and from this point on, he is dead/he stopped thinking -in any case, the same happens as what happens to Ange when she learns of the truth in ep 8. And he falls into the depth of oblivion, where he loses his memories, exactly as its said for Ange in ep 8. Some other scenes that show this:

Ep 3 on the beach:

Spoiler for vn quote:

George to Battler: I wonder if we hadn’t been introduced to each other, if you would even have remembered us. (heres a wrong translation in the English version btw)
Battler about George: He was always frank with his cousins, but he usually took on a reserved, gentlemanly attitude when he came in contact with the servants….When I thought about it, I got the feeling that it was a little familiar, which seemed slightly weird.
Battler: Im surprised at how everyone remembers so much about six years ago. My memories all hazy. Jessica:No surprise. Youll remember about us, it just might take a little time. Should I feel a little hurt?
Battler: Wait, this was six years ago, right? Im the one who has it bad, being forced to remember…! […]I don’t remember anything about what I said off the top of my head. Please, don’t make me remember. Maria: Uu-, Shannons bullying Battler…?

Oh also the next scene from ep 1, look at his reaction once he starts to suspect kyrie and Rudolf (or other family members) in the first panel on the 2nd page:
http://www.mangareader.net/557-36737...hapter-16.html
http://www.mangareader.net/557-36737...hapter-16.html

So his imagination is distorting his family in the games, but they all go along with it, trying to help him..Thats why Rosa apologizes and why everyone talks about a “play”. They are all acting for him and they all hope that he will reach the Golden Land (again! - that he'll REturn) one day. You can see in the Ange scene after she threw herself down the skyscraper, in what state he is. Battler loses his memories bit by bit, he also forgets his goals and he forgets his own name. That’s the Touya we see later-he only remembers his age. Also remember what Lambda says to Battler in ep 6 when he is about to be locked in the closed room:

Spoiler for Quote vn:

Are you sure? Are you sure? This is nearly as bad as the depth of oblivion, got it? Its like the difference between falling from the roof of a 10 story building and falling from the roof of a hundred story building. Even if you manage to crawl around forever after falling onto the darkness of thought, youll just be trapped in a hell where you constantly think of a way to escape the closed room while denying the logic error.

What a coincidence that Anges death was by falling from such a building....

But first things first – its pretty obvious now what the meta is. But Id rather mention the scenes again:


The Meta - between dream and reality

Ep 6 fight between Kyrie and Jessica:

Spoiler for quote vn:

“G, goodbye!! This is a nightmare!” Fortunately, she was smart enough to realize that pinching her cheek wasn’t the best way to wake up from this nightmare.
“Gah…M…make this stop…I don’t understand….!!This is…a nightmare…It’s a nightmare…Let me wake up…quickly…
Jessica: “…Yes, this is a nightmare….”This was…a true nightmare…
Kyrie: “It’s a nightmare, right…? This is…a nightmare, isn’t it…? Please tell me it is…!! Jessica: “Yeah, it’s a nightmare” Kyrie: It is, right…? It’s a nightmare, right…? Jessica: “I acknowledge it…This is a nightmare.” Kyrie: “I do too!! I acknowledge that this is a nightmare!! S, so please.”

Ep 5 puppet-Beato:

Spoiler for quote vn:

Beatos eyes…reflected nothing. And her mouth told nothing. After begging him to kill her, the Golden Witch had become a corpse which had given up on living. She wasn’t sleeping…She could not step down from this game and was therefore forbidden to sleep. So she must have heard. However…the words probably hadn’t reached her heart. Beatrice was no longer…anything more than a living doll.[…] Even if she couldn’t answer, his voice surely reached her.[…] The mercilessly cold shackle tormented her over and over inside her waking dream.

Ep 5 when Battler reaches the truth:

Spoiler for quote vn:

Slowly, the tea room dissolved into darkness….Then, as though I was slowly sinking into a pitch black sea…I passed through the crevice of the long journey Id taken with Beato….and kept on falling and falling….It was a bizarre expierence…like crossing over the boundary of sleep while still conscious.

Ep6 when battler is still trapped in the logic error-room:

Spoiler for quote vn:

Battlers consciousness wasn’t completely gone…it was very distant..but he was slightly tethered to reality.As he listened to this mad laugh…Battler couldn’t even bring a distressed expression to his face. His heart was still trapped in the locked room he had created.
-Also like Beato hes unable to really talk.

So this is what the meta is – while Battler is in the same state that we see beato in in ep 5 when she gave up on life, or battler in ep 6 after he found out that there is no one left in the family who can help him get out of the room, the meta occurs simultaneously inside his mind. Its like a waking dream/some kind of nightmare. The ange scene mentioned under 2) makes it clear:

Spoiler for quote vn:

“Eventually…she would forget her everyday memories, and even the reason why she was suffering. However, there was one thing she would never forget. That was…the anguish. From this point forth…she would suffer endlessly without even knowing why.”

Ep 6 Anges thoughts:

Spoiler for quote vn:

In the game board that represents the inside of Onee-chans head, Sakutarou certainly does exist.

He is in the meta playing the games without knowing how he got there. And he is having an endless nightmare. A propos:

Ep 3:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-3/17/56

So this is all inside his head.But then, its not only in his head! Like it said in ep 6 – his consciousness is not completely gone. That’s why he notices, like Beato in ep 5, things that happen around him, but those things are warped, like the fantasy-layer is a warped version for the mystery-layer in Beaots games.Still, in his mind, Beato is there to help him, that’s why she arranges the games for Battler. And I FINALLY figured out the relationship between Beato and Sayo etc. and how she got into Battlers mind in the first place. But first I want to mention some other scenes:

Not being able to speak

http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/12/20

episode 6 kyrie in battlers game:

Spoiler for quote vn:

“I need to regain my spirit and support my husband. Even if Im not allowed to speak.”

Ep 6 when battler is in the creepy room:

Spoiler for quote vn:

“When I thought this…I tried to call out to someone…but it was as though the wind had been knocked out of me.”

And if we take what is written in the Ange scene:

Spoiler for quote vn:

“Please, say something!! Ange!!”” …Dad, Mom…Ill…say it out loud…”Dad…Mom…” “Ange…”

They encourage "him (!) to speak, but he first has to get used to that again. So there are really many many hints that point to the fact that Battler in reality cant really speak.


This too – ep 6 end of marriage:

Spoiler for quote vn:

In that instant…Battler let out a voiceless scream…His howl had no voice and could be heard by no one….However, it still rang out throughout the cathedral….

Im lazy...to be continued later...

[Inbuiltx9]

Rudolf and Kyrie are not the culprits

Theres still soooo much stuff, but I think one of the most important implications is that Rudolf and Kyrie are not the culprits!

Im sorry, I had a discussion about this earlier and there, I just said that because there is no game-master in ep 7 tea-party, that had to be the truth. I was completely wrong! And I was even insulted by Ryukishi for that XD Ill mention the scenes:

Ikuko ep 8:

Spoiler for quote vn:

It was always a worthless story.Just something for my ignorant readers to put on their shelves and let them think that they’ve managed to solve a great puzzle.. I was hoping that theyd recognize the irony and laugh at their own foolishness, but it looks like you’ve taken it seriously. Yes, I can say Im ashamed at my own failure as a writer.”

Ep 8 – when Erika counters the Rudolf-family-culprit-theory:

Spoiler for quote vn:

“Counter…Its possible to form a logical theory other than the Rudolfs family culprit theory.”
She continues: “Lets have the blockheads who can only think of the Rudolfs family culprit theory step down!

Ep 7 Will to Bern:

Spoiler for quote vn:

”Kyrie and Rudolf are the culprits, and they massacred the people on the island? They called Lion out to the parlor, then shot Lion to death? Sorry, but this truth of yours just doesn’t work as a mystery. This is all fantasy. Rule 1: It is forbidden to have a crime without all clues presented. I wont accept your mystery with Kyrie and Rudolf as the culprits…You wont find clues showing that theyre the culprits no matter which game you look at.

And he is right with that. There are no clues. But there are clues that hint at something different. But first:

Ep 7 tea party:

Spoiler for quote vn:

Rudolf had already determined to play the part of the evil murderer who kills for money….

Ep 8:

Spoiler for quote vn:

Beato to Ange: All of this is my fault. The message bottle I threw away half-jokingly caused a distortion in your future and wore you down.
Ange: It isn’t your fault Beato….No matter how many people around me had their baseless suspicions,…there shoulve been only one truth inside me. And yet, so easily…I abandoned my warm memores of all of you,…and surrendered my heart to them. Even though I shoulve known better than anyone else that it was impossible… I accepted it in the end. One of the Forgers wrote a plausible forgery that had Ushiromiya Eva as the culprit, which spread like a wildfire…However, the message bottles thrown away by Beato did not name a specific person as the culprit.

Ep 5- Beato:

Spoiler for quote vn:

“I cant lose. The truth isn’t something anyone gets to deny. When you doubt and abandon it yourself, it disappeeeeeeears!!”

Later ep 5 – when Natsuhi is framed:

Spoiler for quote vn:

Battler: Even without evidence, Erikas words sound reasonable, so theyre probably the truth…? And that’s why youre throwing away your ‘belief’ that Natsuhi oba-san isinnocent despite a lack of proof?!

Battler: “Its like…those witches are distorting things so that they match with an outline Erikas drawn up….”Virgilia: “That’s right. If the Game Master, Lady Lambdadelta, accepts a truth, its authenticity will not be questioned. The world that comes after will be formed based on the final remaining truth…This happens no matter how far this final truth is from the real truth.”

Ep 6 Dlanor to Erika:

Spoiler for quote vn:

…Please, forgive my arrogance….I felt that I needed to protect you…As soon as I realized what a frail truth you live by..and how much you have been tortured by the violence of a more plausible mixture of truth and lies.

The mixture of truths and lies is often mentioned. Virgilia also says that when Natsuhi is framed - that not everything what Erika says is wrong. Rudolf and Kyrie killing everyone is not a lie! But they are not the culprits! And here I still have to be careful, because there is one clue that I still have to find (Edit: nope, now I already found it). Anyways, Im pretty sure we can say: Rudolf and Kyrie are the same as everyone else in the games before - they are accomplices. But the way I see it is that they aren’t exactly doing it because they want to do it. Will says there are no clues for Rudolf and Kyrie being the culprits, but there are hints for other facts:

http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-4/19/34
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...pisode-4/15/58

+ the fact (shown in the pages I linked above with Natsuhi and Rosa) that a mother in the Ushiromiya family would do anything for her child

http://www.mangareader.net/557-44361...hapter-18.html

what kumasawa says in the first panel:
http://www.mangareader.net/557-44361...hapter-18.html

And now there are two very important clues in Battlers game ep 6:
In Battlers game, he himself Battler is the culprit (theres still also a different reason actually why he is the culprit), and all the women die. Its mentioned by the way that all the women in Umineko are witches – Rosa with her black witch, EVA and Natsuhi with her Beato delusions, Jessica is also a witch in her band. But what about Kyrie?

Even if we say Kyrie didn’t know in ep 4 already that Battler was her own child, I think ep 4 shows that she indeed accepted Battler into the family and as her child- completely different from what ep 7 tea party shows us. I guess all the hints with the mothers protecting their children show exactly that – that Kyrie did the same in prime. And I don’t think I have to mention all the countless clues that show that Rudolf is really doing everything he can for Battler – looking out for him even when he was hated, paying everything for him, trying to visit him when Battler was living at his grandparents house, kneeling before him to ask him to get back. So it even was kinda Rudolfs responsibility that Battler came back. A more important clue follows later though.

Rudolf ep 7, tea party:

Spoiler for quote vn:

“Humans are the only ones that keep treating them like kids after they get big. If Id known itd come to this, I should never begged for you to come back. ….I regret…dragging you back into the family….When Battler came, he didn’t intend to voice those regrets of his.”

The last clue for now: Ange got a letter from Beatrice – which was meant as a compensation for the bereaved of her accomplices, cause they would die anyways.

We know that Beato lets her “pieces” act within a cetain role. And its also literally mentioned that Rudolf plays the part of the murderer. Kyrie takes over the role of the “murderer” too. At the end she is only called that, she is no longer “Kyrie”.The true culprit is the same as always: its Sayo. But the question remains WHY they would do something like that. And I guess we can answer that, but first theres another question.

Ep 8: In the interlude with Ikuko, Touya says he was tricked by the ring in Ikukos story and that this matter was hinted at early in the story. I think this hint is still missing and I haven’t found it yet (Edit: no I did find it), but my question is:

How would Eva have gotten the ring of the Ushiromiya head?

That’s how it is presented in Anges story, but how would Eva have gotten this ring? In the tea-party its never mentioned that she took the ring from Sayos finger. And it was reasoned that the ring is always transferred from the head to the successor. I really have to find this certain clue in the first games (edit: found it already XD), but here are the clues in the later games that Eva never got the ring. I know this has huge consequences…But I guess we have to take a look at what Virgilia says: the future is formed according to this last truth...

Battler= the new and last family head

Now for the why Rudolf and Kyrie would murder everyone (at least the first part of the reason)

Keep in mind that Beato WANTED Battler to solve the epitaph, now her reaction+battlers:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/10/10
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/10/23
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/10/24
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/10/25
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/10/26
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...olden-witch/11

And also this:
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/11/37
http://www.mangareader.net/umineko-n...en-witch/11/38

It kinda sounds like Battler found the gold in prime. He had the potential anyways, and when he still had all of his memories he was better with solving riddles. It could also have been that Sayo gave him tips as was shown in ep 5 (but here I really have to find the clue how exactly that happened) There are other clues that show that this really happened.

I also want to mention a certain scene. If I don’t mention where its from, it sounds like someone found the gold:

Spoiler for quote vn:

I followed the bloody footprints of the cat (-> lion statues, which would sometimes stop and look back at me…and walked on and on through the dark corridor. Forward…turn…head down what appeared to be stairs from time to time. And then…though I couldn’t really tell because of the darkness….I was standing right in front of a door….Here…? I pushed the door open slowly…but it was dark on the inside, just like the corridor.However, the air and the slight change in the echos made by the footsteps…told me that this was a room, not a corridor.”

This is Bernkastel being led to Featherines home btw.

Another is the one I already mentioned - in ep 6, when Battler proves that he understood Beato, he makes himself the culprit. That’s the first “truth”. And see how in ep 5 he has a bad concience because he knows how his family will react. Also Erika in ep 5 to Beato:” So you have no need to worry. Battler-san isn’t the culprit.” And when Beato suggests in ep 5 court that Battler could be the culprit, she apologizes to him. I guess this shows that Battler somehow is responsable for what happened.

And we have Ange saying: “Rudolf, Kyrie, Battler-Onii-chan, they are all victims. Its noones fault” once she reads the book of the Single Truth. She includes Battler there. Whatever exactly happened – this I still have to find out because with this Im not yet completely convinced - theres still a clue that independently from all that shows that Battler became the family head. And the clue that shows what happened in prime.