One Piece - Chapter 786 [manga]

[Rainbowman]

As much as I appreciate Gatz helping out, that birdcage doesn't look like it's slowing down. Unless he has chronokinetic devil fruit powers I don't see how he can buy time for Luffy. And I want this arc to be over soon. Also having the arc end in the fall is bound to be torture.

[Belise]

The revolutionaries are there investigating the weapons trade i believe.

Sabo's just going off on a tangent.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

Trebol was also there, true, but he was pretty much a non-factor in this fight. He did nothing to considerably hurt Law or Luffy. The same can't be said for Law, who had a much bigger impact on the fight.

Also, it doesn't matter how badly Doflamingo got kicked around by Gear 4th, if he's not done yet. Gear 4th messed up Luffy just as much as it did Doflamingo, if not more. Doflamingo is still able to smile, walk around and keep the birdcage up. Luffy is a freakin' wreak right now, and he's dependent on the help of others. Even with Law's help, he was not able to defeat his enemy. And if it wasn't for the colosseum fighters and Sabo, Mingo could kill him right now.

Regardless of Trebol's threat level, he still interfered when Luffy was getting the upper hand. A moment's distraction can make a difference. That's all I'm saying.

Gear 4 Luffy is superior to Doflamingo. The problem is that the form has a time limit. Hypothetically speaking, if Luffy were to try to end things quickly by using his strongest attack (which we know he has yet to do), I'd wager that Doffy would be KO'd.

Doflamingo is without a doubt a beast. But I don't think he's as strong as some people here are making him out to be. Definitely not admiral level.

[ri0]

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

Regardless of Trebol's threat level, he still interfered when Luffy was getting the upper hand. A moment's distraction can make a difference. That's all I'm saying.

Gear 4 Luffy is superior to Doflamingo. The problem is that the form has a time limit. Hypothetically speaking, if Luffy were to try to end things quickly by using his strongest attack (which we know he has yet to do), I'd wager that Doffy would be KO'd.

Doflamingo is without a doubt a beast. But I don't think he's as strong as some people here are making him out to be. Definitely not admiral level.

To be fair, you also have to admit that Law was the one helping Luffy out first. So after the Gamma Knife and a Counter Shock, which had much more effect than Trebol's attempts, I think you could say that the distraction on Luffy's team was much bigger. And Luffy only got in 1 kick and 2 punches, while Doflamingo immediatly countered with a Hamstring. I didn't really see Luffy getting the upper hand as clearly as you make it out to be.

And yeah, I as well don't think Doflamingo is full admiral level, but he also didn't really feel frightened by Kizaru's intimidation and his attack...

[ZGoten]

If Luffy were to launch his strongest attack at Doflamingo right now, sure, he could knock him out for good with that. But that's only because of all the damage Doffy's received so far, most notably the Kong Gun, The Rhino Schneider, the Python and of course Law's Gamma Knife. If you want to pitch a Gear 4th Luffy against a full health Doflamingo, I'd bet that even Luffy's strongest attack wouldn't be enough by itself.

But that's all just speaking hypothetically. The truth is that Luffy has been unable to beat Doflamingo without help. And remember, the angle I'm coming at this from is not that Doflamingo is stronger than everyone thinks. It's that Luffy is weaker than most assume.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

It's that Luffy is weaker than most assume.

Just less skilled, and not aware of Dolfy's abilities.
Problem in One Piece is that enemies may be able to do just about anything, so unless you overpower them conciderably, skill and fore knowledge gets a lot bigger role than it otherwise would.

Dolfy has mainly been able to dominate through overpowering his foes, or surprising them with stuff they were not aware of.
And has only really been hurt when surprised.

Dolfy is the Bucky/Arlong of the new world, showing that no, you can't just walk over everyone, sometimes you're going to need help and to go out all the way.

But not the Crocodile, who only really lost because he stopped fighting smart at the end, and pretty much had it his way right up until he started fighting Luffy head on, instead of using his usual tactics .

[ZGoten]

less skilled = weaker

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

less skilled = weaker

Not necessarily.
Ever heard of the trope "Weak, but skilled"?
Skill and power are not the same, and equating them can make the language confusing, especially when talking about so differing skill and power sets as what Luffy and Dolfy are using.

[ZGoten]

When I'm talking power in a conversation like this I usually mean to include everything that contributes to a character's combat prowess. Luffy has less of that than some people think, which is why he can't beat Dolfamingo on his own. That's what I'm saying.

[Belise]

If both Luffy and DD went all out from the start, Luffy would win. But that's mainly because of the strategy that he uses with gear 4.

Think of them as boxers. DD would be much more tactful and evasive with his fighting style. But Luffy would(once realizing his opponents strength) basically swing as hard and fast as he can, hoping to take them down before he passes out. That's more or less what happened here. So if he didn't fight Bellamy or anyone else beforehand and went all out against DD in a 1v1, a pummeling from gear 4 for 20+ minutes would be enough. Even against an awakened paramecia without major internal organ damage. Gear 4 is like all Luffy's power in a single burst for several minutes. DD would loose.

But since those aren't the circumstances here, things turned out very different. There were multiple fights/interruptions throughout the day before the two engaged in any decisive combat. Like fighting Chinjao or handling Law all day. There's also the birdcage and other environmental factors that interfere with a true 1v1 fight so that's probably why people are skeptical of how close the two are in power. The truth(my opinion) is that Luffy is more powerful, but less skilled as a fighter. He's clever but far from DD's level of tact. DD on the otherhand is a superior strategist, but he doesn't have quite the level of raw power Luffy has been able to put out. So if they go all for nothing from the get-go, Luffy would win. If it's a drawn out match, DD would win.

[J4n1]

I get what you mean, but what i am saying that just equating power with anything that might contribute to combat potential is too simplistic, and too variable, to be used as somekind of evaluation of power.

For example, Luffy did not suddenly become more powerful between noticing Crocodiles weakness, yet he want from "free kill" to "takes effort to kill", and even while Crocodile was lot more powerfull, Luffy managed to get a win.

Luffy has no real knowledge of what Dolfy is capable of, and that's his main weakness here, once he got Gear 4th going, Dolfy got trounced.
If Luffy had started with knowledge of what Dolfy can do, he might have been able to solo him (probably not though), but he would not have suddenly gotten more powerfull.

And yes, people do overestimate Luffy, at least in part because he has seen no real opponents until Dolfy came around after timeskip.

edit-
I agree almost completely with Belise.
I'm not certain if fresh Luffy in Gear 4th could have taken out fresh not injured Dolfy, but it is possible.
Drawn out fight favours Dolfy because he has better tactical skills.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Belise

If both Luffy and DD went all out from the start, Luffy would win. But that's mainly because of the strategy that he uses with gear 4.

There's no evidence to support your claim on this. After Luffy used Gear 4 he was in worse shape than the guy who was getting a supposed beat down. In a true 1 on 1 match Doflamingo would rope-a-dope Luffy and just absorb all his attacks until Luffy ran out of Haki and then Mingo would finish him off in his current state. In the fight we literally just saw, it didn't matter if Mingo was dodging or taking the hits. He's still standing and Luffy is not.

[Belise]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

There's no evidence to support your claim on this. After Luffy used Gear 4 he was in worse shape than the guy who was getting a supposed beat down. In a true 1 on 1 match Doflamingo would rope-a-dope Luffy and just absorb all his attacks until Luffy ran out of Haki and then Mingo would finish him off in his current state. In the fight we literally just saw, it didn't matter if Mingo was dodging or taking the hits. He's still standing and Luffy is not.

..I feel like you didn't even consider what you were saying before you replied.

[ZGoten]

I agree with itachi-san314, but feel the need to add something in regards to what j4n1 said. At no point during the battle was I under the impression that Luffy's lack of knowledge regarding Doflamingo's powers had any effect at all. It has been a very straight forward fight with kicks and punches from both fighters and the occasional string attack by Doflamingo, which surely didn't come as much of a surprise. He didn't go for unpredictalbe tactics like against Sanji, where he held his opponent in place. Doflamingo has been fighting Luffy head-on. If anything, Doflamingo was the one who had no knowledge of what Luffy is capable of in Gear 4th. Yet he was able to analyze it while getting smacked around, to the point were he could even pinpoint the flaw in Luffy's technique and predict his (literal) downfall. Maybe that's not what you mean exactly though. Maybe you're simply refereing to the possiblity that Luffy might have underestimated Doflamingo's toughness, but isn't that his own fault for not realizing that the stakes are too high to hold back or not go all out immediately?

Plus, you all need to keep in mind that yes, Luffy was not at 100% when he activated Gear 4th, but Doflamingo wasn't either, they both traded blows beforehand and Doffy took a Gamma Knife. You need to realize that while Doflamingo was fighting Luffy in Gear 4th, the following things were going on: Doflamingo needed to concentrate on healing his wounds from Law's attack, he needed to concentrate on keeping Birdcage up, he needed to analyze a completely new set of technique he had never seen before and he had already taken a considerable amount of damage. Despite all of that, Doflamingo is the one standing, Luffy is the one on the ground. And even if Luffy, after getting saved by the coliseum fighters and/or Sabo or somebody else, will be able to land a final hit to finish Doflamingo off, you can rest assured that he'll be down for the count as well, due to completely overstraining his body. The same thing happend against Lucci and Crocodile. In both situations, Luffy was unable to continue fighting, or even moving for that matter, just like his opponents. For all intents and purposes, that's a draw more than it is a victory. So the best we can hope for here is a draw in a fight where it took a team effort to take down the Joker.

Everything about the last 10 chapters indicates (to me) that Doflamingo is a significantly better fighter than Luffy.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Belise

..I feel like you didn't even consider what you were saying before you replied.

I have the exact same feeling about what you say. We literally just saw Doflamingo beat Luffy's new Gear 4 and somehow you saw the opposite happen

[Belise]

Originally Posted by ZGoten

Everything about the last 10 chapters indicates (to me) that Doflamingo is a significantly better fighter than Luffy.

Well the fight didn't start 10 chapters ago. It started awhile ago. And the underlying factors influencing the overall performance of each fighter started way before then. I'm including all those factors in my opinion.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Belise

Well the fight didn't start 10 chapters ago. It started awhile ago. And the underlying factors influencing the overall performance of each fighter started way before then. I'm including all those factors in my opinion.

Both Doflamingo and Luffy have expended energy and taken damage from other opponents. I think it evens out personally, so it's a moot point. If anything, I could see Mingo having taken more outside damage than Luffy considering what Law did to his internal organs. If you're going to compare outside damage, I don't see how anything that has happened to Luffy compares to a surgeon messing with his organs... I have no clue how you can wind up on the opposite side of that. it's a silly argument imho, but I'm guessing you really believe what you're saying. For me, this battle has proven that Doflamingo is an even bigger monster than I thought possible.

[Blackbeard D. Kuma]

I think the real question here is, how much of an impact did Law's Gamma Knife really have in this fight? Law told Doffy that he would certainly die, but the latter didn't seem concerned since he could just repair his insides with his strings. And in all honesty, his performance didn't weaken considerably after taking that attack.

If Doflamingo is really that much above Luffy and Law, he shouldn't be struggling like this. Luffy, at the very least, has proven that he can compete with him.

[Belise]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

I have no clue how you can wind up on the opposite side of that. it's a silly argument imho, but I'm guessing you really believe what you're saying.

You do realize you're in a forum where people state their opinions right? That's what everybody is doing. Even you. Judging from this response and your "awakening" tirade, you seem to have trouble understanding thoughts that aren't in harmony with your own. So just leave it be. If you think it's silly talk about something else relevant.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Belise

You do realize you're in a forum where people state their opinions right? That's what everybody is doing. Even you. Judging from this response and your "awakening" tirade, you seem to have trouble understanding thoughts that aren't in harmony with your own. So just leave it be. If you think it's silly talk about something else relevant.

It's silly to understate internal damage. Internal damage to organs is far and away more problematic than cuts or bruises on the exterior or stamina/endurance loss. That's just a fact of life. And Law being an experienced surgeon just makes it exponentially worse damage.

I'm also noting how you never seem to have evidence to back up your grandiose claims. I'll ask again what evidence there is to support your theory that Doflamingo is weaker than Luffy. I would honestly like to hear it.

Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma

If Doflamingo is really that much above Luffy and Law, he shouldn't be struggling like this. Luffy, at the very least, has proven that he can compete with him.

I totally agree that Luffy is competitive in this fight. He pushed Mingo farther than most, if not all, of his past fights. But I don't see any evidence to support that Luffy and Mingo are on the same level. And certainly none to prove that Luffy is above him.

In the first Rocky movie for instance, Rocky wasn't on Apollo's level, but he was competitive and pushed him to the limit which was great in and of itself.