Mahouka LN - Yotsuba Inheritance Arc (Volume 16) Discussion / Poll

[somerand]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Overrated simply because they can't outperform everyone at everything and do everything by themselves. OK, they found Zhou but without the cooperation with the others many things would have been impossible, first time they found him with Mitsugu, he lost his arm and Zhou ran away, they were testing Tatsuya but even if they found Zhou's location, Fumiya and his squad would have been unable to stop him by themselves, it was clear that only Tatsuya, Masaki and Minoru had the power to do so. Kudou, Ichijou and Saegusa individuals were helpful to him. They were very useful in the Visitor arc indeed but Tatsuya used Mayumi and Juumonji's network and he kept everything he knew from them.

What I want to say is that, by using the Yotsuba network alone, Tatsuya would have never succeeded. He always used what he learnt from the others coupled with his own network to succeed, just because he is publicly recognized as a Yotsuba doesn't mean he doesn't need the help of the others anymore.

But he would have tracked down the parasites 10 x easier with the Yotsuba network alone... The Yotsuba knew where they were the entire time, they just didn't share the information with Tatsuya, which they will now that he's apart of the family. Mitsugu literally destroyed the hosts at one point then let them go simply so they could observe them. None of the other families were required in any way in the parasite arc.

I don't see how anyone thinks Masaki's presence was needed to capture Zhou either, he was there at the end to deliver the final blow, but it isn't like Tatsuya couldn't have simply decomposed him if Masaki wasn't around. Same with Minoru, Tatsuya specifically mentioned that he could track Zhou down even if he escaped due to Nakura's blood traces in him, neither were required. Tasuya/Fumiya/Ayako could've done it, Tatsuya even said he was going in with or without Masaki, they weren't required, they may have been "useful" but not necessary. Anyway, we are specifically talking about him leaving the 101st here.

Neither Minoru or Masaki helped out because of his 101st connection. He could've still used Minoru and Masaki the exact same way even if he wasn't in the 101st, the Yotsuba and his personal connections such as Masaki/Minoru/Kyouko have been more than enough to deal with everything so far, we havn't seen him in a situation that him and the Yotsuba couldn't solve without 101st help.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by somerand

But he would have tracked down the parasites 10 x easier with the Yotsuba network alone... The Yotsuba knew where they were the entire time, they just didn't share the information with Tatsuya, which they will now that he's apart of the family. Mitsugu literally destroyed the hosts at one point then let them go simply so they could observe them. None of the other families were required in any way in the parasite arc.

I don't see how anyone thinks Masaki's presence was needed to capture Zhou either, he was there at the end to deliver the final blow, but it isn't like Tatsuya couldn't have simply decomposed him if Masaki wasn't around. Same with Minoru, Tatsuya specifically mentioned that he could track Zhou down even if he escaped due to Nakura's blood traces in him, neither were required. Tasuya/Fumiya/Ayako could've done it, Tatsuya even said he was going in with or without Masaki, they weren't required, they may have been "useful" but not necessary. Anyway, we are specifically talking about him leaving the 101st here.

Neither Minoru or Masaki helped out because of his 101st connection. He could've still used Minoru and Masaki the exact same way even if he wasn't in the 101st, the Yotsuba and his personal connections such as Masaki/Minoru/Kyouko have been more than enough to deal with everything so far, we havn't seen him in a situation that him and the Yotsuba couldn't solve without 101st help.

How did they not share information? Tatsuya cooperated with them the entire time, and as you said Mitsugu was doing his part, Tatsuya had his now problems at 1st High with Lina and the Parasites attacking him, he can't be everywhere at the same time, I don't see how you can say he could have done it better without their help when he was even called by Mayumi when they attacked and learnt many things from the cooperation with Juumonji-Saegusa, he also needed to stay and train with Yakumo because he had no way to kill Parasites, that would have not been easier with them alone.

Masaki was not only there to capture Zhou, Tatsuya revealed his identity to forcefully include him in his plan, he was here for firepower and teamed up with him for the infiltration, which required a competent combat magician and discretion, the unnamed magic he used permitted to leave no traces at all. Minoru helped Tatsuya ever since he asked to cooperate with Kudou, he gave him a lot of informations, was the guide during most of their mission, permitted to slow down Zhou, without all these actions, Zhou would have ran away, it's the cooperation which led to this, not Yotsuba's strength alone. Tatsuya, Masaki and Minoru had the power to take Zhou alone, I am not implying he would have . Saying that Tatsuya/Fumiya/Ayako could have done is too much, remember first that the wins had their own missions with their squad while Tatsuya and Masaki were moving, and they would have certainly been a bother on the battlefield, not to mention that they would not be able to dispose of the fuels for discretion.

Without Tatsuya cooperating with Kudou first and using all the resources he had at his disposal, it would have not happened. I was not talking about Tatsuya leaving the 101 in the first place, I said Yotsuba network was not absolutely superior to the 101 in every aspects, that they are overrated and can't do everything alone, this network is not omnipotent. So, even if Tatsuya can use the Yotsuba network all he wants, it doesn't mean that the help of the others is not required for certain things, I did say that he could leave the 101 later but it won't be immediate if it happens, he will however be tied to the military forever because of his magic.

[somerand]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

How did they not share information? Tatsuya cooperated with them the entire time, and as you said Mitsugu was doing his part, Tatsuya had his now problems at 1st High with Lina and the Parasites attacking him, he can't be everywhere at the same time, I don't see how you can say he could have done it better without their help when he was even called by Mayumi when they attacked and learnt many things from the cooperation with Juumonji-Saegusa, he also needed to stay and train with Yakumo because he had no way to kill Parasites, that would have not been easier with them alone.

Masaki was not only there to capture Zhou, Tatsuya revealed his identity to forcefully include him in his plan, he was here for firepower and teamed up with him for the infiltration, which required a competent combat magician and discretion, the unnamed magic he used permitted to leave no traces at all. Minoru helped Tatsuya ever since he asked to cooperate with Kudou, he gave him a lot of informations, was the guide during most of their mission, permitted to slow down Zhou, without all these actions, Zhou would have ran away, it's the cooperation which led to this, not Yotsuba's strength alone. Tatsuya, Masaki and Minoru had the power to take Zhou alone, I am not implying he would have . Saying that Tatsuya/Fumiya/Ayako could have done is too much, remember first that the wins had their own missions with their squad while Tatsuya and Masaki were moving, and they would have certainly been a bother on the battlefield, not to mention that they would not be able to dispose of the fuels for discretion.

Without Tatsuya cooperating with Kudou first and using all the resources he had at his disposal, it would have not happened. I was not talking about Tatsuya leaving the 101 in the first place, I said Yotsuba network was not absolutely superior to the 101 in every aspects, that they are overrated and can't do everything alone, this network is not omnipotent. So, even if Tatsuya can use the Yotsuba network all he wants, it doesn't mean that the help of the others is not required for certain things, I did say that he could leave the 101 later but it won't be immediate if it happens, he will however be tied to the military forever because of his magic.

If Mitsugu and the other Kuroba family agents just told Tatsuya and Miyuki the location of the parasites they could have come and ended it with Cocytus straight away before the entire situation escalated.. The only reason they didn't was because Maya wanted the parasites observed for research, not destroyed.

In regards to your second paragraph:

"Tatsuya already has experiences with entering blockaded military area and crashing with JSDF forces. He has no reason to back out now."

You say "Masaki was not only there to catch Zhou"..... What else was he there for, attacking a JSDF base for a laugh? Both of their objectives was to capture Zhou..... There's nothing suggesting Tatsuya needed Masaki's help to enter the base. It is stated he has done things like this in the past, like soling No-dragon head. Hell he thought a lot more military strength as a thirteen year old during Okinawa.... There is nothing suggesting he needed Masaki's help. I'm not saying Masaki was useless, just that there's nothing suggesting he was absolutely necessary. Tatsuya is also naturally restricted in what magic he can use in front of people like Masaki.

Clearly Tatsuya with his move set could've handled it on his own.

Also:

"It’s him.” Zhou is riding metallic color sedan and drives to the south gate. Everything is going to the plan of pushing Zhou out of the base while avoiding the possibility of leaving any evidences in the military surveillance system.

Tatsuya senses something from Zhou’s Eidos. There is a foreign substance that Tatsuya remembers. This substance is not belonged to Zhou. It is stuck inside of him. Tatsuya thinks, “This must be your last attempt. I will not waste your death.” Even though Tatsuya only met this person one time, he makes a promise to the dead."

Tatsuya already had Zhou under his observation from the moment he attempted to flee in the car and as he later stated:

" Tatsuya is no longer answering to his questions and says, “as long as Nakura Saburo’s blood is inside of you, you cannot get away from me.” This is the last warning from Tatsuya. Zhou accepts his situation and says, “So, this is as far as I go.” "


With or without Minoru blocking the way, Zhou was finished. Tatsauya had already identified the blood of Nakura while Zhou was fleeing in the car and as Tatsuya himself said, there was no escape from that point on. Even if Zhou managed to make it past Fumiya/Ayako Tatsuya still would've eventually hunted him down where ever he attempted to run to. The blood was a trail and elemental sight operates regardless of distance, there was no escape even if Minoru/Masaki weren't there.

Anyway I'm sick of this debate. Your original points were "Yotsuba can't give him anything, Tatsuya himself admitted that he relies a lot on the 101 and his other connections, they don't have Kyouko, or Yanagi etc. Even Yotsuba were obliged to make a contract with the military. "

Obviously the Yotsuba, who are at the pinnacle of the master clans have a lot to offer. He relies on Kyouko alone, we havn't seen him gain anything from anyone else in the 101st and he can still use Kyouko on personal terms rather than through the military as seen by his request to Kudou Retsu. It has gotten way off topic since then.

[Echizen777]

They leave school, then who deal with the problems in their town, how does he investigate? Both were targeted by USNA, would it be wise to suddenly leave like that? He would leave with Miyuki and kill them all, it's very unlikely that he would go with Miyuki in the first place and IIRC it was at USNA. Tatsuya and Miyuki don't represent all the Yotsuba and there are others MI magicians, Mitsugu is a Yotsuba and he did his job, Tatsuya did the same, this is way too perfect don't you think. Wanting the Parasites for research is a good reason, Saegusa and Kudou wanted the same, Kudou got their sample, same for Maya, and we still don't know what they did with it. He didn't hide his magics in front of Masaki, so that's not an excuse. What if Minoru had not stopped Zhou? He would have escaped, it was in the plan that Minoru would be waiting somewhere, and they would stop him, then the twins would attack if they could. I say it again, all of this happened because of the cooperation with the others, starting from the help from the Kudou clan, it was not due to Yotsuba alone. You can't disregard all of this and say it would have been perfect with Yotsuba alone.

You are misinterpreting my post, I didn't say he was absolutely necessary, he could have entered the base, and what after this? He decided himself to make Masaki help him because he deemed that he needed him and he made a plan accordingly. First, Masaki was here as an additional force and it's already pretty good to gain time, also, Tatsuya told him to use his magic to conceal absolutely all traces of magic, another necessity, he considered all of this. If it was simply to beat them all, any of these two could have done it alone, but they needed to be efficient and stealthy enough to catch Zhou before he escape. Masaki has also not been in this arc only for the infiltration mission.

Yes, Yotsuba have a lot to offer, and I never said the contrary. Kyouko is from the 101, and he gained a lot from Sanada too, he has the personal contacts of all the other members we know, using her on personal term or not is using someone other than the Yotsuba, other members than him and gave him intel since the 9SC arc, they were here in the Yokohama arc, they were making his Third Eye and his armor while he had more time for other things , Steeplechase, Double Seven etc, all these things which seem unimportant at first helped him a lot. Tatsuya always relies on various sources, Yotsuba or not, if he were to use only the Yotsuba, a lot of things would not work,that's the reason he accepted to help Mayumi and even tried to force her to ask for his help even.

Basically, my point is that being able to use the Yotsuba network freely doesn't mean he won't need to use other sources, because they have things that Yotsuba lacks, it's that simple. So saying that Tatsuya doesn't need the 101 anymore and can leave is wrong, he could always request help from the Yotsuba in the first place and when he needed it he did it, now he has more liberty but it's not that different.

[LHikki]

About protest in TMC, back in double seven(Vol.12), when Katsuto ask Koichi to stop, he say Juumonji family deliver a writting protest, and then, a reply for this will be prepared.

So protest is only a political way to say you are against something, but the other part can accept stop it or no.

Maybe for this, Ichijou makes the marriage commitment, to get a rasonable reason to object.

[TrueAlchemist]

Originally Posted by amtro

No, Tatsuya is in the military for the sweet connections and collab projects. Anything the military provides him his family is capable of giving him too. As of vol 13 he is no longer obligated to be in the military. Mio is in the military as a weapon, we don't know if she's an officer, or if she even has any sort of military education. Her reasons for being in the military are for the status and fame it gives her family as TMC. The whole reason why they can be a TMC is because of her magic.
Tatsuya said in vol 7 that if his magics became public knowledge he would probably be stripped of his number due to how unethical they are, but I guess we're about to see if that's true now.

I agree with amtro on his relationship with the military. Ever since vol.13, the 101 battalion is not really Tatsuya's ally. Their relationship has become somewhat close to the business relationship. Tatsuya offers his services to the 101 battalion, and he can enjoy certain level of protection from the 101 battalion. If USNA STARS tried to pull another stunt against Tatsuya, we may finally witness Kazama in the action. And, I think, Tatsuya may leave the army once he managed to subdue Yotsuba. Otherwise, he will continue needing his backups in the case of a bloody conflict between him and Yotsuba.

According to vol.7, Tatsuya thinks, if his magic gets discovered, he believes, it will cause a bigger problem than simply losing number status. But, the story has developed, and the situation has changed. In vol.16, his Material Bust has become a significant asset for Japan, and it has become important enough to influence foreign powers to change their foreign policies towards Japan. Some of them are building a alliance against Japan, and at the same time some of them (Russia) are trying to forge a security treaty with Japan. Who knows? Yotsuba Maya may use Tatsuya as an asset to make Yotsuba bigger than 10MC system or make undisputable #1 Clan among the entire number families. But, I feel like, Tatsuya's identity as S-class magician will come into the play when Yotsuba really gets in trouble from Jiedo Heigu or other 3rd parties. Just like Yotsuba Eisaku initially planned, Tatsuya's existence may become an ultimate weapon or salvation when Yotsuba faces its end.

[LHikki]

@ Echizen, i have one question for you, what have 101 and Yotsuba not, for example?

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by LHikki

@ Echizen, i have one question for you, what have 101 and Yotsuba not, for example?

Yotsuba have much more than the 101 but they can't do everything by themselves, and it's better or necessary to use other sources than them for certain things, during the mission to capture Zhou, these sources can also be better according to the situation, we don't know the extent of their powers but this much is certain.

[Aciald]

I am still unclear why everyone thinks Tatsuya needs to leave the 101.

I am also not sure where it's stated that Tatsuya suddenly likes the Yotsuba and hates the 101. I am pretty sure it is actually the opposite.

Finally, the idea that the Yotsuba is more powerful than the Japanese military is a bit hard to imagine. (This is for those arguing the Yotsuba can wipe out the JSDF. When it comes to gathering information I agree the Yotsuba are better because thats their job.)

[LHikki]

@Aciald, remember Tatsuya can´t love or hate. He can like or dislike, but nothing more. Maybe he like some of the officer of 101, but in the first 9SC stated Tatsuya can abandon Kazama (and 101 of course) if he think the are a obstacule, (well, Kazama too).

101 want Tatsuya because his power and intelligence, and Tatsuya gets a little freedom from government (he is a S-class magician) and Yotsuba(101 have preference over Yotsuba orders except guardian duty).

Basically, he use both, Yotsuba and 101.....

[ProxyAccount]

The arrangement with the military is useful because it gives the government and military what it wants (Tatsuya's Strategic Class Magic and useful magitech), the Yotsuba what it wants (more leverage), and what Tatsuya wants (connections and freedom). If the Yotsuba did not have such an arrangement, then the government and military would likely demand control of Tatsuya and this would cause problems. Ultimately, the freedom of magicians in the country is dependent upon the government. It is better for everyone to make a favorable deal for everyone concerned than to be obstinate.

Even though this deal further increases the Yotsuba's power, the Yotsuba are primarily concerned with protecting themselves than ruling the 10MC. However, other clans might not see it that way.

[L-V]

This is a bit off of your current topic of discussion. But due to busy sched, I just finished reading the actual 'Ancient City Insurrection' novels despite being updated with Volume 16 spoiler. So I have one concern/question.

When Tatsuya used his ability to "look into" Minoru as per Kyouko's request, he was able to discern how he was 'made' and all that. So it's a surprise that he wasn't able to realize that Miyuki is an augmented magician prior to Maya's revelations. Is it because he was never on guard when with Miyuki that he never thought of using his elemental sight on her (or perhaps thought it was invading her privacy, which I'm not really convinced it is)? Or is it because there's some complicated spell at work here that allows the two to be constantly connected to each other, yet at the same time blocks Tatsuya's abilities to look into Miyuki's 'secret' past (or wtv). I've read through the previous discussions and couldn't find any answers. Just that Cocytus plays a major role in the scenario (limiter and all).

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by L-V

This is a bit off of your current topic of discussion. But due to busy sched, I just finished reading the actual 'Ancient City Insurrection' novels despite being updated with Volume 16 spoiler. So I have one concern/question.

When Tatsuya used his ability to "look into" Minoru as per Kyouko's request, he was able to discern how he was 'made' and all that. So it's a surprise that he wasn't able to realize that Miyuki is an augmented magician prior to Maya's revelations. Is it because he was never on guard when with Miyuki that he never thought of using his elemental sight on her (or perhaps thought it was invading her privacy, which I'm not really convinced it is)? Or is it because there's some complicated spell at work here that allows the two to be constantly connected to each other, yet at the same time blocks Tatsuya's abilities to look into Miyuki's 'secret' past (or wtv). I've read through the previous discussions and couldn't find any answers. Just that Cocytus plays a major role in the scenario (limiter and all).

Miyuki was modified but she's still his sister and that's why he knew Maya lied, I don't know when he used his scan on her exactly, but he did.

[amtro]

Do you want me to look up the exact quote? Because I will. I'll shut down this debate once and for all. Maya said that Miyuki is genetically more distant to Tatsuya than she is, meaning that she has been tampered with to the extent that they're not even cousins genetically.
Miyuki was created in a lab from a base embryo made from Tatsurou and Miya's cells, altered to the point that Tatsuya thought she was full of mutations and given birth by Miya.

EDIT: Ugh, this is harder than I had anticipated. I have the right pages, but I can't narrow it down to the precise statement. I'd have to post the entire page and the mods won't like that.

[IceHism]

I thought it was because Tatsuya can only read psion signatures and Miyuki's psions were identical to his in a way that he wouldn't notice?

[L-V]

Oh, I did not intend to start another argument (as I am curious with your current topic as well). I just got curious when I saw how he read Minoru's background.

Originally Posted by amtro

Do you want me to look up the exact quote? Because I will. I'll shut down this debate once and for all. Maya said that Miyuki is genetically more distant to Tatsuya than she is, meaning that she has been tampered with to the extent that they're not even cousins genetically.
Miyuki was created in a lab from a base embryo made from Tatsurou and Miya's cells, altered to the point that Tatsuya thought she was full of mutations and given birth by Miya.

But that may have answered it. If he (sort of) 'misread' (lack of better terms) Miyuki rather than not reading her at all before.

[amtro]

No, he reads her genetic material and can see that they both came from eggs from the same donor. Furthermore he goes on to state that there are several irregularities in Miyuki which he had thought were mutations. Maya corrects him and says that she and Tatsuya are closer related than Tatsuya and Miyuki.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by amtro

No, he reads her genetic material and can see that they both came from eggs from the same donor. Furthermore he goes on to state that there are several irregularities in Miyuki which he had thought were mutations. Maya corrects him and says that she and Tatsuya are closer related than Tatsuya and Miyuki.

Mutations? Can you PM me the translation? I don't remember this, I can't imagine Tatsuya thinking that Miyuki had mutations and do nothing about it all this time. I thought Maya said she and Tatsuya were closer than with Miya, because of her thoughts when he was in the womb.

[L-V]

Originally Posted by amtro

No, he reads her genetic material and can see that they both came from eggs from the same donor. Furthermore he goes on to state that there are several irregularities in Miyuki which he had thought were mutations. Maya corrects him and says that she and Tatsuya are closer related than Tatsuya and Miyuki.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

Mutations? Can you PM me the translation? I don't remember this

I haven't read any detailed translation about their (Tatsuya and Maya) conversation, just the main issue, so that's enlightening. Although a nice translation of the actual conversation would be nice, indeed. Thank you, amtro. Now I'll go back to being a spectator. Thanks for all the spoilers and insights, guys.


EDIT: I shall silently observe the development from here on.

[amtro]

No, I'm not sending you a full translation. But I'll tell you the exact page and I'll post the romanized text boldened.

Page 238, line 4 and 5.

Sore wa Tatsuya ni wakaru han'i de, miyuki no nikutai ni yūgaina sayō o motarasu yōinde wanai. Dakara kare wa, sorera no fakutā o shizen'na hen'i no sanbutsu to kangaete ita. Daga, sorera ga chōsei ni yotte motarasa reta monoda to kangaereba, jibun to miyuki no ma ni aru `kōsei yōso' no ōkina sai mo, yori gōri-teki ni kaishaku dekiru. Fuhon'inagara, Tatsuya wa sō mitomezaru o e na kakimashita.

Underlined is mutations (変異 , hen'i).