Utawarerumono Episode 6 Discussion / Poll

[Guido]

I commend the episode for astounding movie soundtrack quality, however, I found the animation lagging and crude especially concerning with the colors hue and brilliance. The color intensity seemed as if were whitened.

Benawi and Hakuoro each display their talents quite at comparative advantages between them.

- Benawi possess talent and skills, as his swordsmanship manages to pawn Hakuoro at his mercy. Besides, Benawi correctly foresaw that Hakuoro would be guiding his troops to raid the fronts gate so, therefore, relocated his men and himself at the gate in expectancy of the rebels.

- On the other hand, Hakuoro proves his strategies quite elaborated, and his leadership is making known to inspire other neighboring villages to support the rebellion.
Benawi could had never expected that the forces splitted in two, letting the chivalry served as distraction while the rear guard came from the unguarded end flank. However, the victory was possible because the archer twins arrived in time while successfully guiding the second flank to the gate.

Spoiler:

Benawi and Kouro mentioned not expecting a surprise ambush coming from the forest. Is that where the twins and the others came from to raid the rear flank?

I too am awared that Hakuoro's war venture is turning business-like, making Hakuoro to direct his attention to the general people's welfare while overlooking both Eruruu and Aruruu's well feelings.
I can come to think that Hakuoro's eventual change of his demeanor is attributed to the toll he's paying for Tusukuru's death and having to carry the humonguous burden of protecting the people that are slowly becoming dragged in war state, now that he's become the elder leader. In turn, the distance between him and the sisters is turning wide, and Hakuoro is losing sight of them.

And for one more time I wish for Inkara to bite the dust soon. It's unforgiveable to order the slaughtering of peaceful villages that did not want to get involved in the rebellion.
But thanks to the fat, blubber a** more people are meeting reasons to pledge their lives under the care of Hakuoro.

[Selic]

Actually, I believe that it wasn't a second group of Hakuoro's army, but rather, the villagers from the other side.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by Selic

Actually, I believe that it wasn't a second group of Hakuoro's army, but rather, the villagers from the other side.

The twins were leading the rear attack. It had to be a second flank of Hakuoro's forces, or they wouldn't have been. Plus the villagers on the other side wouldn't have known Hakuoro was attacking the gate, so they wouldn't have been able to coordinate the attack. I thought it was villagers from the other side too, at first.

[OshadowO]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

The twins were leading the rear attack. It had to be a second flank of Hakuoro's forces, or they wouldn't have been. Plus the villagers on the other side wouldn't have known Hakuoro was attacking the gate, so they wouldn't have been able to coordinate the attack. I thought it was villagers from the other side too, at first.

nope it was the villagers on the other side. Rewatch Hakurou's convo with Benawi where big ben tells ol Hak that it was insane to send those two through the forest and Hak commends them on their speed.

Anyway I can't decided if I like this anime or not. I do like it but Benawi is driving me nuts. He's the best Character imo and he's frustrating as hell. I hope that bastard of a wimp Nuwangi dies soon, but some how I feel even if he comes close to it he will survive like the cockraoch he is.

[Psieye]

Originally Posted by Guido

I commend the episode for astounding movie soundtrack quality, however, I found the animation lagging and crude especially concerning with the colors hue and brilliance. The color intensity seemed as if were whitened.

Benawi and Hakuoro each display their talents quite at comparative advantages between them.

- Benawi possess talent and skills, as his swordsmanship manages to pawn Hakuoro at his mercy. Besides, Benawi correctly foresaw that Hakuoro would be guiding his troops to raid the fronts gate so, therefore, relocated his men and himself at the gate in expectancy of the rebels.

Actually, I disagree. I think Benawi didn't choose to be placed there, but made it such that he'd get to fight Hakuoro again there. He knew the villager who got through the gate was from the other side, to bring news of that side's readiness to rebel (presumably the Emperor's indiscriminate attacks and/or some proclaimation was enough to inform them that Hakuoro's side were fighting). So, Benawi let this 'messenger' escape knowing that Hakuoro would likely attack the gate in response. This act gives him the advantage as it brings Hakuoro's forces out of their castle and to his own stronghold. He didn't expect Hakuoro to pull off a pincer attack though.

As for the rear attack, I still do believe it was the villagers from the other side - the twins marathon ran all the way to the nearest village and brought their aid back. When they started that journey, I do not know. But it doesn't make sense that the rear attack is also Hakuoro's army - the twins are of exceptional mobility and ordinary villagers can't have kept up with them with a battering ram and still be fresh to attack if they'd started from Hakuoro's position. Maybe they got into position early? Then why are the twins the only ones who are out of breath? And why else would Hakuoro say "the conditions were perfect" if it wasn't for the villagers on the other side being ready to come in as reinforcements? We don't even know how far away the nearest village on the other side was - it would only take one village-worth of people to turn the tide in a pincer strike.

Hmm, I guess it's more a fusion of the two - I don't think the other side could have prepared a battering ram that fast so Hakuoro sent a small siege force with the twins to get into position for the rear attack. This siege force then hid while the twins ran to the villages (yes, it's an insane feat - hence Benawi's line and this is an era where hero-quality individuals pull off great feats) to 'recruit' them as the rear attack force. Again, I'm not sure how early the twins were sent out or how far they had to run to get to the nearest village.

[Selic]

Here's an interesting theory.

What if Benawi did defeat Hakuoro and capture him?

With Inkara obviously a bad ruler, would Benawi attempt a coup to place Hakuoro at the top? Since he's got rather easy access to Inkara, it wouldn't be too hard to kill him. Civilians are spared the horrors of war and it'd be a rather bloodless coup assuming the army listens to Benwai.

[Psieye]

Originally Posted by Selic

Here's an interesting theory.

What if Benawi did defeat Hakuoro and capture him?

With Inkara obviously a bad ruler, would Benawi attempt a coup to place Hakuoro at the top? Since he's got rather easy access to Inkara, it wouldn't be too hard to kill him. Civilians are spared the horrors of war and it'd be a rather bloodless coup assuming the army listens to Benwai.

This all sounds easy yes, but again think of the situation afterwards. Benawi wouldn't be the Elite Charismatic Commander that he became today if he could ever think of actually killing his lord, no matter how corrupt and evil he turned out to be compared to when he first joined service. For if he did stain his hands (directly or indirectly) by assassinating the Emperor, his own reptuation would be shot and Hakuoro probably wouldn't accept being placed up there - nor would people be as willing to follow him.

The lives of many must be sacrificed (on both sides) for there to be a result the people would accept in the long term. Honour and Reputation can be such strange things at times.

[Green²]

Originally Posted by OshadowO

nope it was the villagers on the other side. Rewatch Hakurou's convo with Benawi where big ben tells ol Hak that it was insane to send those two through the forest and Hak commends them on their speed.

Which also appears for later, leaves open question on what is really up with that forest that fears them so.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by Psieye

Hmm, I guess it's more a fusion of the two - I don't think the other side could have prepared a battering ram that fast so Hakuoro sent a small siege force with the twins to get into position for the rear attack. This siege force then hid while the twins ran to the villages (yes, it's an insane feat - hence Benawi's line and this is an era where hero-quality individuals pull off great feats) to 'recruit' them as the rear attack force. Again, I'm not sure how early the twins were sent out or how far they had to run to get to the nearest village.

That could be. The battering ram is one of the things that convinces me it was a second flank sent by Hakuoro. If it's a combination force, that would explain it's presence. If they were laying in wait, they'd have time to make a battering ram before the reinforcements arrived, so they wouldn't have to had brought it with them, easing the burdon somewhat.

For the mobility issue, any forces involved were probably hand picked for speed.


Since Hakuoro was attempting to lay seige to the gate, he would need to cut off both sides. If he attacks only one side of the gate, the defending force can still get logistical support if the gate doesn't fall quickly. This creates a bad situation for Hakuoro's force, having to assult a fortified position that can easily get reinforcements and supplies. It had to be part of his plan to cut off the gate.

Also, while he was aware of willingness to rebel by villagers on the other side, they could not have been counted on. They wouldn't have had even the minimal training Hakuoro's troops have, nor would they be mobilized. I don't believe they could have fielded a sizeable force in time to help at the gate.

At the very least there must have been a small force Hakuoro sent around to cut off the gate. It may have been reinforced by villagers from that side though. I don't think the anime will give us a definative answer. Perhaps there's an answer from the game?

Originally Posted by Green²

Which also appears for later, leaves open question on what is really up with that forest that fears them so.

It might not be that there's something they fear, but the terrain was considered impassable, at least by an army. Since they chose to build a gate there, it would make sense that they didn't expect it could be bypassed. There are plenty of historic parallels to this. * Hannibal crossing the alps, the Germans attacking through the Ardennes in both ww1 and ww2, and the US traveling through the deep desert into Iraq in gulf war 1 just off the top of my head*

edit: If it was something they feared, I'd bet on the mutikapa, which has already been resolved.

[Tiberium Wolf]

Why do you ppl insist that it's a second army sent by Hakuruo? The gate there was to separate the land where he is from the other land in the other side. Hakuruo took the villagers from his side to attack and set the twins to the other side to get the rebellious vilagers to attack too, syncronizing their attack on the gate!

[zalas]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

At the very least there must have been a small force Hakuoro sent around to cut off the gate. It may have been reinforced by villagers from that side though. I don't think the anime will give us a definative answer. Perhaps there's an answer from the game?

The game does it a lot differently.

Spoiler for game:

Hakuoro has his forces setting up all sorts of attacks along the border in order to create a diversion while sending a small team in to destroy the gate at Tatokori. Benawi had underestimated Hakuoro's strength as a strategist, but he did know that Tatokori would be prime attack if Hakuoro wanted to mount an attack. That's why, upon realization, he and Kurou rushed over. Just before reaching Tatokori, Teoro unleashes a trap on them, sending rocks tumbling down on Benawi's troops, and Kurou and Benawi get separated, with Kurou on the side of the Tatokori gate and Benawi on the other. In the game, Tatokori was essentially a toll booth built to levy tolls on the populace, and hence would be an easy target.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by Tiberium Wolf

Why do you ppl insist that it's a second army sent by Hakuruo? The gate there was to separate the land where he is from the other land in the other side. Hakuruo took the villagers from his side to attack and set the twins to the other side to get the rebellious vilagers to attack too, syncronizing their attack on the gate!

Why do you insist it isn't? That the gate was set up to seperate the territory doesn't mean it was the only way through.

It would be poor strategy to rely on a second force of unknown strength, with no training, that hasn't been mobilized, and with whom you have no communication. Coordinating the attack between the two sides would have been next to impossible, and there would be no way to let Hakuoro know if something went wrong. If there was an unforseen delay or the force fielded was much smaller than anticipated, the attack would have failed. Hakuoro doesn't seem the type to leave things for fate to decide like that.

Originally Posted by zalas

The game does it a lot differently.

Spoiler for game:

Hakuoro has his forces setting up all sorts of attacks along the border in order to create a diversion while sending a small team in to destroy the gate at Tatokori. Benawi had underestimated Hakuoro's strength as a strategist, but he did know that Tatokori would be prime attack if Hakuoro wanted to mount an attack. That's why, upon realization, he and Kurou rushed over. Just before reaching Tatokori, Teoro unleashes a trap on them, sending rocks tumbling down on Benawi's troops, and Kurou and Benawi get separated, with Kurou on the side of the Tatokori gate and Benawi on the other. In the game, Tatokori was essentially a toll booth built to levy tolls on the populace, and hence would be an easy target.

I like that scenerio more. It better shows Hakuoro's tactical skill, and makes quite a bit more sense. The rebellion in the anime doesn't have the widespread feel that implies.

That's basicly what the gate was in the anime as well. Though there did seem to be more troops than needed for such a purpose...

[ctrl-z]

Perhaps the messenger that Benawi let through the pass revealed other information to Hakuoro and co. that wasn't explicitly told to the audience; like the mobilization status of the villages on the other side of the gate.

Hakuoro also states during the war briefing that they'll assault the gate at sunrise --which is when the archer twins show up -- despite the operation starting when the moon was still visible. Perhaps the villages on the other side of the gate had already mobilized and were awaiting a response? Thus Hakuoro's choice of assaulting at sunrise, and thus he sent the twins, and they were tired from running all night.

[Tiberium Wolf]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Why do you insist it isn't? That the gate was set up to seperate the territory doesn't mean it was the only way through.

It would be poor strategy to rely on a second force of unknown strength, with no training, that hasn't been mobilized, and with whom you have no communication. Coordinating the attack between the two sides would have been next to impossible, and there would be no way to let Hakuoro know if something went wrong. If there was an unforseen delay or the force fielded was much smaller than anticipated, the attack would have failed. Hakuoro doesn't seem the type to leave things for fate to decide like that.

The gate is there coz it was the only safe passage else it would be meaningless for it to exist. The gate is not like China Great Wall!! That messanger that got through just told that the villagers in the other side were rebelling and so the twins got to the other side taking the dangerous route and so telling the villagers there to attack at the same time. That is explicit in the ep. But I guess you didn't watch carefully the ep.

[Green²]

Originally Posted by Tiberium Wolf

The gate is there coz it was the only safe passage else it would be meaningless for it to exist. The gate is not like China Great Wall!! That messanger that got through just told that the villagers in the other side were rebelling and so the twins got to the other side taking the dangerous route and so telling the villagers there to attack at the same time. That is explicit in the ep. But I guess you didn't watch carefully the ep.

And the reasoning overall for the attack was to acquire more people, for in that to further build up the resistance forces to an centralized order. That without, would be greatly weakened overall. -A goal that both village sides seemed willing to resolve.

[Psieye]

Originally Posted by ctrl-z

Perhaps the messenger that Benawi let through the pass revealed other information to Hakuoro and co. that wasn't explicitly told to the audience; like the mobilization status of the villages on the other side of the gate.

Hakuoro also states during the war briefing that they'll assault the gate at sunrise --which is when the archer twins show up -- despite the operation starting when the moon was still visible. Perhaps the villages on the other side of the gate had already mobilized and were awaiting a response? Thus Hakuoro's choice of assaulting at sunrise, and thus he sent the twins, and they were tired from running all night.

That's a good point... they attacked before the time he said... So hmm, the timeline of that assault would have been something like...

Late evening~Night - Messenger arrives from the other side. Presumably Hakuoro further questioned this messenger with information like readiness to assault, mobilisation status, weapon logistics, etc. Twins are set on marathon run as soon as it's ascertained that they can attack given signal.

Dawn, before sunrise - judging by the position of the moon, perhaps an hour or less before sunrise? Hakuoro's frontal assault begins.

Sunrise - clearly the signal for the rear attack to begin. Twins had gathered what they could and lead the attack. Battering ram... depending on how early they reached the first village, could have been prepared in an hour during which the Twins would go to more villages.


If this battle lasted a mere 1 hour or so, then there's no need to cut off the rear end of the gate - you can't get reinforcements or logistics support delivered within such a short time.


Yes, it's reasonable to assume that the villagers on the other side wouldn't send a messenger on such a dangerous mission in the first place unless it was critical information - meaning that they were ready to mobilise. It's irrelevant what level of training they had - their presence in numbers with arms coming from the rear puts enough psychological weight that it's all over for the defenders who had already thinned out into a long 1~2 man depth line. You saw how the soldiers turning around to look at the rear army was enough to be the death of them.

[Kamui4356]

Originally Posted by Tiberium Wolf

The gate is there coz it was the only safe passage else it would be meaningless for it to exist. The gate is not like China Great Wall!! That messanger that got through just told that the villagers in the other side were rebelling and so the twins got to the other side taking the dangerous route and so telling the villagers there to attack at the same time. That is explicit in the ep. But I guess you didn't watch carefully the ep.

I'm not saying the second force was comprised entirely of Hakuoro's troops, only that there was at least a core of them. *Though I was at first* There are historic parallels, and it makes good tactical sense to send a flanking force behind. That the twins got through means others could have as well. After all, what if the twins got to those villages and heard that the messenger's report was exaggerated and they wouldn't be ready to move for several days? They would have had no way to inform Hakuoro, and he was counting on the second flank, which suggests at least a small force was sent with the twins.

Psieye's suggestion of the small seige force with the twins gathering whaever aid they can get immediately from the other villages makes a lot of sense. Even if they couldn't send the numbers Hakuoro was expecting, at least there would be a small second flank to take some of the pressure off the frontal assault.

Why is this so hard to believe? There are real life parallels, it makes sense to do so, it's the type of move that would be expected from a character like Hakuoro... If Hakuoro was more like Oboro, I'd be more willing to believe he would have left things to chance and hoped the twins could get there on time with a large enough force from the villages on the other side. However, like I said before, Hakuoro does not seem to be one who would leave things to chance.

Also, note that the second force has pikes. If they were composed entirely of villagers from the other side, they would have been armed with just improvised weapons such as pitch forks, axes, and the like. They may have had time to prepare a battering ram, but surely they didn't have enough time to make actual weapons like the pikes.

Well, it's not likely we'll get any more information in future episodes, and there isn't enough to decisively support one side over the other now. Plus it's a minor point, either way, Hakuoro has now linked up with the villagers on the other side of the gate.

[Psieye]

The small siege force would likely have been carrying extra weapons and were to arrive much later than the Twins then - that I can accept. Set off at same time as twins, arrive at rendezvous point slower but in time to hand out weapons to the manforce that the Twins bring back. I assume the battering ram was still from the first village - that should be easy enough to prepare given the abundance of trees around the place.

[Takemi_Ikazuchi]

You know, deploying Mukkuru would have been a considerable advantage.

Psychological warfare at least.

But Mukkuru comes along with Aruru as a set and I guess Hakuoro has parental obligations to keep her away from war.

[Green²]

Originally Posted by Kamui4356

Why is this so hard to believe? There are real life parallels, it makes sense to do so, it's the type of move that would be expected from a character like Hakuoro... If Hakuoro was more like Oboro, I'd be more willing to believe he would have left things to chance and hoped the twins could get there on time with a large enough force from the villages on the other side. However, like I said before, Hakuoro does not seem to be one who would leave things to chance.

If one believe when Hakuoro says he won't fight a battle that he can't win. Stalemating for an time, to even up to an point where Hakuoro may have believed that they were going to lose it. As an dangerous path through the forest, no guarantee. And the numbers would have to be great, for Benawi to consider withdraw. And we do know that there are people on the other side that are itching to do a bit of ass kicking. ..if to believe the messenger.

And reckless that is. For without further confirmation, to whom they side, could've even been the emperor's. But to his word Hakuoro believed of this messenger. And chance, that it be.

Also, note that the second force has pikes. If they were composed entirely of villagers from the other side, they would have been armed with just improvised weapons such as pitch forks, axes, and the like. They may have had time to prepare a battering ram, but surely they didn't have enough time to make actual weapons like the pikes.

Which probably would indicate that the other side of the gate has been in battle for some time now. But true also, in that the weapons could had came from anywhere.

Well, it's not likely we'll get any more information in future episodes, and there isn't enough to decisively support one side over the other now. Plus it's a minor point, either way, Hakuoro has now linked up with the villagers on the other side of the gate.

Linked up, in which the emperor won't be too happy.