GATE - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

So, i guess you are not an Overlord like anime fan. Some people actually like to see the heroes stomping their enemies for a change, instead of the typical punch bags they usually are until the very last fight where they suddenly win just because they are the good guys. But, to each is own.

And there's no in-between, huh? Either overpowered MC and moronic opponents, or whiny MC and super opponents? Sorry, I don't believe in that. It should be possible to portray competent opponents, while still maintaining the overall superiority of the protagonists. In fact that would make for better action. The supposed "action" in the episode was about as spectacular as watching a lawn-mower go over grass. And for your information, no I don't mind superior protagonists, had no issue with this in Mahouka for the most part for example, as long as the fights are written well - which this one in particular wasn't.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

The consequences could be catastrophic for japan in the long run, literally everytime they need some kind of help from another country they will be reminded of their actions, meanwhile the other countries will take advantage of japan and use them as their however they see fit, heck they could even deny them any sort of help and Japan would be stuck down shit-creek without a paddle.

Japan would just end up becoming it's allies bitch and it would all be of their own doing, harsh but true

Please, its not the 1970s and the 1800s anymore, public opinion will be so fired up against USA, Russia and China that the backlash against the invasion of Iraq will look like nothing.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

Never did I say that scene was pointless (the entire thing with the Diet falls under the purview of the "cultural dissonance" part). I am referring exclusively to the "blackmail and spec ops attack" bits as mentioned, which imho is the lowest point of GATE's writing.

You know there are people here that thinks the Diet thing was also bad writing and some sort of "propaganda"?. That's why i mentioned it. But see, i totally understand your point. You just did not liked that part because you think there were more realistic ways to portray it. Yet, some people here took that situation personally as if the author was insulting them. That's why i was like.. wtf?

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

And there's no in-between, huh? Either overpowered MC and moronic opponents, or whiny MC and super opponents? Sorry, I don't believe in that. It should be possible to portray competent opponents, while still maintaining the overall superiority of the protagonists. In fact that would make for better action. The supposed "action" in the episode was about as spectacular as watching a lawn-mower go over grass. And for your information, no I don't mind superior protagonists, had no issue with this in Mahouka for the most part for example, as long as the fights are written well - which this one in particular wasn't.

Yes, there are also in-between situations. I also like to see those. It was just not the case in this GATE episode. Japan had the home territory advantage and better intelligence for that situation in particular. But i believe that eventually, some army from our world other than the JSDF, somehow will enter the GATE. And maybe in that situation we will be able to see a terrifying balanced fight between two high tech armies that even Rory would be scared of.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

With "almost" being the key word there right? It's not a totally impossible scenario.
So, you are upset, because the heroes of this anime completely dominated the US soldiers? Well, sometimes i also feel frustrated that the angels are always portrayed as more powerfull than the demons, unless one of the demons is actually the hero and thus more powerfull. See where i'm going? It's a fictional story, not a documentary about who would win between the Special Forces from the two said countries.




.

No, I was replying about this being a way to get action in the story. It would not be any better action if they were pot shooting just Russian or Chinese teams. Or Martians for that matter since this is just a made up story that does not have to make sense.

[Hmm....]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

While I'm on the side of "guys, just apply the MST3K mantra and enjoy it for what it is," I would say a more realistic US leader wouldn't get in this situation at all. They would have simply requested that Japan allow them to speak with the visitors from the Special Region, and given the alliance between the two countries they probably would have gotten an ok. Since this series isn't realism, of course, we have to understand how the logic in its universe works out.

Realistically, that might be the case. Unfortunately, Japan in this story are more nationalistic and stubborn. This is an author political view point after all or there won't be a story in the first place. RL Japan would likely yield Gate to international investigation. However Gate's Japan didn't. If Japanese government suddenly cave in at this point, it will come off as inconsistent to me. When Gate's Japan say "NO", they mean "NO".

So yes, I agree with you that we must understand on what logic they operate in.

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Princess Piña isn't there as far as most people know. She wasn't displayed on national TV, there is no news whatsoever of negotations or of high-ranking nobility from the Special Region visiting Japan. Her visit is secret. Even if the foreign kidnappers are aware that there are two other people visiting with Itami's group, there is almost certainly no way they can know who they are. That is why I do not believe the princess is an intentional target of this kidnapping attempt.

Itami's onsen trip didn't go on air either. I'm pretty sure if these agents can track Itami's whereabout, they can find out exact number and identity of the guests that came through the gate. I am also on assumption that if US took an outrageous action like this, there must be a worthy reason for it. I don't see Rory as one. If they don't know about Pina I doubt they will take action.

Originally Posted by Magewolf

However what I do not understand is how a few people from beyond the Gate can be worth taking unprecedented and potentiality incredibly damaging to the US actions, who has info that can bring down the Japanese government anyway, but access to the Gate itself is not even worth talking about.

It's less about info but more about status in this case. You can do all sort of thing if you can get Princess Pina in your hand. This is some simple scenario I can think of.
1. Puppet Empress: Most simple idea (but perhaps least simple to execute). Nevertheless an ultimate wet dream for any country in our world. Install Pina in place of her father and you can do whatever you want with special region.
2. Strike better deal than Japan: Having Pina issue official request to assist her country to fend off brutal invader who slaughtered hundred thousands of her people will certainly give you an easy ticket to Gate. This is THE justified reason all "Stomp Japan for Gate access already" people want.
3. Have UN recognize Empire as legitimated country: This can stop any JSDF activity in special region dead on its track. Because their claim that all special region is Japanese territory is now null. They would have no choice but to let international investigators in.
4. As of now, I don't think princess Pina is aware that an almighty Japan that can easily topple her Empire would be just a fragment of our world. That there are even more powerful superpower out there. That knowledge alone can screw up whatever plan Japan has pretty badly. (Something like Yanagida's schema)

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

Japan had the home territory advantage and better intelligence for that situation in particular.

This doesn't excuse the utter lack of preparation on the part of so-called elite forces. It's utterly ridiculous that they (and that means all two or three parties) would go into a forest at night with a high probability of encountering some form of resistance without any form of night vision, just to name a single example.

But i believe that eventually, some army from our world other than the JSDF, somehow will enter the GATE. And maybe in that situation we will be able to see a terrifying balanced fight between two high tech armies that even Rory would be scared of.

Unless a gate pops up somewhere else, not possible, for that would necessitate an invasion of Japan.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by Hmm....

Realistically, that might be the case. Unfortunately, Japan in this story are more nationalistic and stubborn. This is an author political view point after all or there won't be a story in the first place. RL Japan would likely yield Gate to international investigation. However Gate's Japan didn't. If Japanese government suddenly cave in at this point, it will come off as inconsistent to me. When Gate's Japan say "NO", they mean "NO".

So yes, I agree with you that we must understand on what logic they operate in.


Itami's onsen trip didn't go on air either. I'm pretty sure if these agents can track Itami's whereabout, they can find out exact number and identity of the guests that came through the gate. I am also on assumption that if US took an outrageous action like this, there must be a worthy reason for it. I don't see Rory as one. If they don't know about Pina I doubt they will take action.


It's less about info but more about status in this case. You can do all sort of thing if you can get Princess Pina in your hand. This is some simple scenario I can think of.
1. Puppet Empress: Most simple idea (but perhaps least simple to execute). Nevertheless an ultimate wet dream for any country in our world. Install Pina in place of her father and you can do whatever you want with special region.
2. Strike better deal than Japan: Having Pina issue official request to assist her country to fend off brutal invader who slaughtered hundred thousands of her people will certainly give you an easy ticket to Gate. This is THE justified reason all "Stomp Japan for Gate access already" people want.
3. Have UN recognize Empire as legitimated country: This can stop any JSDF activity in special region dead on its track. Because their claim that all special region is Japanese territory is now null. They would have no choice but to let international investigators in.
4. As of now, I don't think princess Pina is aware that an almighty Japan that can easily topple her Empire would be just a fragment of our world. That there are even more powerful superpower out there. That knowledge alone can screw up whatever plan Japan has pretty badly. (Something like Yanagida's schema)

The thing is all the useful part of those can be done without anybody from the gate. The Japanese claim of owning another planet has no legal backing. They are also carrying out military actions with no oversight and refuse to let UN observers in. Those two things alone are enough to get them put under sanctions that would grind their economy to a halt in a few months.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

This doesn't excuse the utter lack of preparation on the part of so-called elite forces. It's utterly ridiculous that they (and that means all two or three parties) would go into a forest at night with a high probability of encountering some form of resistance without any form of night vision, just to name a single example.


Unless a gate pops up somewhere else, not possible, for that would necessitate an invasion of Japan.

So if you were a CIA agent and the US president ordered you to go check out a forest so would you refuse if you did not have access to night vision goggles, without having any information of any enemy using them? They would obviously have wanted them, but should they just give up without trying due to lacking some gear?

It's easy to call them stupid for going into a trap as we can see them doing so.

Rolling tanks down the streets in Tokyo would be quite a visual invasion as well.

[Znail]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

The thing is all the useful part of those can be done without anybody from the gate. The Japanese claim of owning another planet has no legal backing. They are also carrying out military actions with no oversight and refuse to let UN observers in. Those two things alone are enough to get them put under sanctions that would grind their economy to a halt in a few months.

Err, nations carry out military operations without oversight or UN observers all the time. I haven't noticed any sanctions against for instance USA recently. In fact US never participates in any UN actions even without being excluded from any oversight while doing so. Well, that is at least what I read, so I might be wrong or it have changed recently.

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by Znail

Err, nations carry out military operations without oversight or UN observers all the time. I haven't noticed any sanctions against for instance USA recently. In fact US never participates in any UN actions even without being excluded from any oversight while doing so. Well, that is at least what I read, so I might be wrong or it have changed recently.

Sanctions get purposed against the US all the time but most never go anywhere because everyone knows that the US has a permanent seat on the Security Counsel and would just veto them. As well as the fact that apart from hash words 85% of the power to enforce any UN actions come from the US.

In this case Japan is pissing off every other nation on the planet whose leaders have two brain cells to rub together and they are shooting at the only nation that might be able to help them out of the hole they are digging for themselves.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by Znail

But how can you both have the view that it would be impossible and at the same time think they should do a lot better then they did? Those do not mix well.

I'm not sure how you arrived at that conclusion. Let me put it to you as plainly as possible:

- such an operation is impossible to carry out in the time frame you described without prior assets on the ground, assets that would not be in place in a closely allied country, despite what movies may have you believe.

- If such an operation is to take place, it would not be executed so horribly, but as no operation would've taken place anyway given the constraints, this is a hypothetical exercise at best.

Think of it this way, what you're asking for is... akin to a rescue of stranded climbers on the top of Mt. Everest with no air assets or anything else other than a couple of amateur climbers. Would you send those would-be rescuers up? because all you'd accomplish is adding to the body count. If an rescue is actually attempted, you'd bet it would be with sufficient supplies and equipment and manpower to actually get the job done.

I admit that it does make the ones in charge look bad, but that is another thing then the complaints about how it makes the operatives look. But I also do not find it that absurd as it could have worked, if it had not been an ambush like it were. If the only protection were Itami and the girl sgt, then the forces sent doesn't look quite as absurd.

No, it makes the ones in charge look bad, but it makes the operatives looks downright retarded. To be fair, this may not be immediately obvious to those who have no military experience, but everything from their movements, tactics, reactions, and behaviors are so damned stupid it's laughable. It'd be one thing if they were supposed to be cannon fodder grunts, but as some kind of elite force? they're even worse than the "elite" storm troopers that lost to ewoks.

This obviously makes the other nations looks like idiots, but I still fail to see how it is absurd that Japanese could not manage to keep that set up secret without other nations automatically finding out.

It's absurd because in the real world, 10x more preparation, plannings, and common sense goes into a routine weapon sweep op through some Iraqi village (personal experience) than they shown here attempting to exfiltrate arguably the highest profile targets on the planet. It wouldn't be so bad if everyone is of uniformly stupid as such, but the clash comes for the depiction of Japan as the sole faction in the world that apparently possesses common sense. Put it this way, this feels about as realistic as Saddam's army soundly defeating the Coalition forces in both Gulf Wars.

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

I thought the US already tried that way. Japan just refused to share the Gate. That's why they sent the tactical team to get information about it.

Intel gathering is hardly limited to spec op strike teams, have you heard of the term "spy" before?

Oh really. So me assuming someone is asian because they have those characteristic small eyes is racism?

As an Asian who actually have endured those slurs before, my answer to you is "Fuck yes"

I did not knew i was discriminating/insulting someone for pointing the obvious and trying to guess the race accordingly to it's phenotype.
Next time someone looks at me and says i'm caucasian i will remember to feel insulted.

Identifying you as white? no. Start making unsupported correlations that you must be a redneck from Georgia because you're white? yes.

Originally Posted by Znail

So if you were a CIA agent and the US president ordered you to go check out a forest so would you refuse if you did not have access to night vision goggles, without having any information of any enemy using them? They would obviously have wanted them, but should they just give up without trying due to lacking some gear?

No, you would've went, although everyone from the SECDEF down to the unit's commander should lose their job afterwards, first for not having the necessary logistic support in place, and second for not stopping what is essentially an order for a suicide mission.

And it still wouldn't excuse the stupidity exhibited by the operators themselves in the story.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Intel gathering is hardly limited to spec op strike teams, have you heard of the term "spy" before?

"hardly limited" being the key words there. It means it's also a possibility right? I can understand people not liking how things were handled in the anime (everyone has their taste and oppinion) but it does not mean it's an impossible scenario tho. If we want to be super realistic, the most probable scenario is that Japan would definitely shared the GATE with the US to begin with. So, since that did not happened, it sparkled chain events that no longer follows the most logic/realistic situations. Plus, once again, its just a fictional story!

Originally Posted by kyp275

As an Asian who actually have endured those slurs before, my answer to you is "Fuck yes"

Identifying you as white? no. Start making unsupported correlations that you must be a redneck from Georgia because you're white? yes.

This is a bit offtopic, but how saying asians (and by asians i'm referring specifically to people from China, Korea and Japan) possess a characteristic phenotype is making an unsupported correlation? And how is that an insult? That's how things are. I do not have nothing against people from those coutries as a race. So, how am i being racist? Or using the anime case, how assuming the black man was from the US instead of China or Russia is being racist? It was the most probable assumption. And being a black man from the US is not an insult at all... not for me tho :/
This article should explain it better to you. I have some difficulties with words even when i speak in portuguese, now imagine it in english xD

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

This doesn't excuse the utter lack of preparation on the part of so-called elite forces. It's utterly ridiculous that they (and that means all two or three parties) would go into a forest at night with a high probability of encountering some form of resistance without any form of night vision, just to name a single example.

Ok, some soldiers from the Japanese force should have died. That would be expected. But probably GATE story is like Fairy Tail or One Piece where the heroes never die..lol. I'm with you on that. They should have had some casualties!

[aohige]

Originally Posted by kyp275

No, you're right, it was never stated outright.

On the other hand, the implication was plain enough for everyone to see. The only way they could've been more obvious would've been stating it outright.

You know what really ticks me off?
People who refuse to read, and carry on with their claims.

Originally Posted by aohige

What the hell are you talking about?
That's not how it's said in the novel... it's pretty much exactly as the anime did it, but with more info.

Saber reports that the targets do not look Asian.
Kano orders them to check the bodies.
Saber yells back the bodies identified are of a white man and a black man.
Kano immediately deduce that neither Russia or China would have a special forces team with both Caucasian and black operatives, and rushes to make a phone call to the PM.

This is how it goes.

The line you're referring to is manga adaptation's version... not the novel.

He was expecting China or Russia, but when he saw the white & black operatives, he realized it was likely America.
That's a completely different implication. The pool of usual suspects were limited from the beginning.
It seems some people really really WANT this to be a racist issue, because they're hungry for any material to slam the title no matter what.

You haven't read the novel, I have. And it really makes me mad that you didn't bother checking a page back.
Do you want me to translate the part in the novel word by word??

[Hmm....]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

The thing is all the useful part of those can be done without anybody from the gate. The Japanese claim of owning another planet has no legal backing. They are also carrying out military actions with no oversight and refuse to let UN observers in. Those two things alone are enough to get them put under sanctions that would grind their economy to a halt in a few months.

Eh ? How so ? How do you recognize a country, make a deal, much less stage a coup in a certain country if you have no contact with any citizen from that country whatsoever??

There is certainly a LEGAL backing for that claim. It may not make much sense from common sense standpoint but laws seldom does. Special region is connected to Japan and Japan ALONE. Legally speaking, this is no different than discover an underground cave (a really vast one though) under Ginza. Until there is a scientific explanation how the gate work. The whole special region will remain INSIDE that street at Ginza.

As for whether Japan has military backing to hold the Gate. That is entirely different story. As of now, my opinion on the matter is whoever move first LOSE. So Japan can get away with it so far. I don't know for how long but 4 months is still within plausible period for me.

As for a sanction against Japan, you know what ? I think US would probably veto it. With all said and done, US is still in the best position to gain access to the Gate. US wouldn't want International to get involved. US would prefer to gain access ALONE.

[Haak]

Frankly, I'm finding myself growing more and more bored and disappointed with this arc. I hope the story quickly goes back to the fantasy world because I quite enjoyed the story in the first half of the cour when it was about LIBERATORS LIBERATING and giving the 21st century a pat on the back. At least then I could just sit back and enjoy without having to think of any Unfortunate Implications. This current storyline is tolerable but just made the mistake of becoming a bit too serious for its own good and consequently inviting more scrutiny which it isn't standing up well to.

And whilst I still enjoy Itami's character, this episode has really been going out of its way to martyrize the guy. I hope they don't go overboard.

[kukuru]

I don't see why its so hard to see their favorites do stupid things. Happens all the time. That's more realistic then television.

Sure its not fun to see your home team humiliated , but its going to happen over and over again.

A bit of nationism tints things in stories, but is it so hard to believe?

Must we take out the history book about the number of stupid things US did on domestic and foreign policy?

[Chosen_Hero]

Originally Posted by Haak

Frankly, I'm finding myself growing more and more bored and disappointed with this arc. I hope the story quickly goes back to the fantasy world because I quite enjoyed the story in the first half of the cour when it was about LIBERATORS LIBERATING and giving the 21st century a pat on the back. At least then I could just sit back and enjoy without having to think of any Unfortunate Implications. This current storyline is tolerable but just made the mistake of becoming a bit too serious for its own good and consequently inviting more scrutiny which it isn't standing up well to.

And whilst I still enjoy Itami's character, this episode has really been going out of its way to martyrize the guy. I hope they don't go overboard.

He's a super elite otaku that seems to be able to do anything and seems to know the right important people, too late for that.

[SakurazukaJames]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

He's a super elite otaku that seems to be able to do anything and seems to know the right important people, too late for that.

I wonder why no one has called him a Gary Stu yet.

[jasper222]

Originally Posted by Chosen_Hero

He's a super elite otaku that seems to be able to do anything and seems to know the right important people, too late for that.

Originally Posted by SakurazukaJames

I wonder why no one has called him a Gary Stu yet.

They would be stupid to.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vTjNEZ3kcE

Tylor and Itami are cut from the same cloth.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Hmm....

Eh ? How so ? How do you recognize a country, make a deal, much less stage a coup in a certain country if you have no contact with any citizen from that country whatsoever??

There is certainly a LEGAL backing for that claim. It may not make much sense from common sense standpoint but laws seldom does. Special region is connected to Japan and Japan ALONE. Legally speaking, this is no different than discover an underground cave (a really vast one though) under Ginza. Until there is a scientific explanation how the gate work. The whole special region will remain INSIDE that street at Ginza.

As for whether Japan has military backing to hold the Gate. That is entirely different story. As of now, my opinion on the matter is whoever move first LOSE. So Japan can get away with it so far. I don't know for how long but 4 months is still within plausible period for me.

Look, let's take the Gate out of the equation for a bit. Imagine that somewhere in a barely explored corner of the Amazon, or maybe an island in the Pacific, there exists a source of enormous wealth. And that a tribe of stone age people is sitting on it.

Now, that would certainly be the jackpot for whichever country claims that bit of land, but even so, those stone age people would still have some protection under international law. And if that country imposes a total information blackout, and refuses to share the wealth, other countries will be a lot more motivated than usual to ensure the stone age guys' human rights aren't being violated.

We have the same thing here. (Except with medieval rather than stone age.) In fact, an argument could easily be made that the Gate is a boundary, and that the land on the other side isn't Japan at all. Since no Japanese citizen set foot there before the Gate appeared, but there was a rather obvious polity already in place.

So if they feel like pushing, and Gate Japan is making them feel like pushing for some reason, the US and company can push.

As for a sanction against Japan, you know what ? I think US would probably veto it. With all said and done, US is still in the best position to gain access to the Gate. US wouldn't want International to get involved. US would prefer to gain access ALONE.

If they play ball, sure. But it's not what they're doing, is it? Or the US wouldn't be so desperate.