(CR) Rokka no Yuusha

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

That's problem isn't? You don't know how the fight went down. You don't know if Chamo's Jyuma had already spotted her.

That's probably what ended up happening. But it's still a silly mistake for Fremy to make when she apparently investigates the abilities of her potential targets before considering them a threat.

Apparently Chamo can also summon a single Jyuma at the same speed of a bullet which is capable of reacting to Hans' extreme speed, but you don't see happen in the adaptation.

So did Adlet and Hans lose this fight in the source material? Did they use another strategy to win? Because I can tell you right now if it's the same there's no way she reacts as fast as a bullet. Unless you're saying Hans moves as fast as a bullet or that Adlet can kick and launch Hans back at her as fast as a bullet.

Frankly with her abilities there little reason Chamo should fall for surprise attacks.

And I think your over estimating her abilities. She's a paper mage that can be killed numerous ways before her abilities come into play.

Originally Posted by Zefyris

She was going easy on Hans+ Adlet and yet they still had to try very hard to even reach her.

That's your opinion. Or can you show me where it's stated she's going easy?

Originally Posted by Zefyris

Since if both Chamo and Hans are true braves, then there is no reason to leave Chamo restrained as she cannot attack someone who isn't here any more. Shortest way for Hans to say "please kill me I'm the seventh".

Bit of a double standard after Chamo announced she was going to kill all Braves other than Mora don't you think? He had a very legitimate reason to keep her bound. She's dangerous and unstable.

Also, while I don't always like to speak for other posters, it's obvious HayashiTakara meant before Mora released her. Chamo was already restrained and in the same position when Adlet questioned her.

[Zefyris]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

Bit of a double standard after Chamo announced she was going to kill all Braves other than Mora don't you think? He had a very legitimate reason to keep her bound. She's dangerous and unstable.

Also, while I don't always like to speak for other posters, it's obvious HayashiTakara meant before Mora released her. Chamo was already restrained and in the same position when Adlet questioned her.

Mora HAS a double standard for chamo, that's pretty obvious. Anyone else in the group announcing seriously that they're going to keep killing everyone until the fog barrier disappear and trying to carry out those words would be fighting her right now. She just screamed a bit at chamo and that's all.

The position before wasn't any better. If he doesn't has any proof then trying to just point finger at the equivalent of the pope is just going to make him suspicious as f*** for the others. And again, since he cannot stop her from releasing chamo while talking, that's still the same. Worse thing would be a fight between the two in the temple. That's a one vs one that would turn into a several vs one if anyone enter in between or if chamo is delivered in the middle of it. If someone enter and see Mora fighting Hans to try to deliver Chamo currently neutralised, anyone would help Mora. If he really thinks that Mora is the seventh, then that's the worse thing to do. To accuse her while Chamo is neutralised and try to stop Mora from unbinding her, I mean. That's like asking "please start to fight me so that everyone will turn against me instead". Anyone entering the temple would mistake the situation to Chamo being taken as an hostage and Mora genuinely trying to save her.
So he can't stop her. He has no proof of anything, so he can't prove anything about her.

That's your opinion. Or can you show me where it's stated she's going easy?

Uh what? She's just fooling around the whole time. Chit chating and poking fun at them. Of course she wasn't a little bit serious. She has never lost a fight and she has been restraining her power her whole life. She kept comparing what they were doing to other peoples trying the same. She stopped throwing out more pets. Calling Hans stupid for trying what he did and the like. From the start to the end, she never really took them seriously. Like I said, Chamo is inexperienced. She's overconfident because she never fought any group of opponent that could take her down and has been asked again and again by Mora to not use her full power.
Chamo is called "strongest saint in history since 1,000 years". The only person stronger than her is someone who soloed the demon god and its whole minion army alone whereas other saints have a hard time while being six to just fight the fiends army without having to deal with the full power demon god afterwards. Do you seriously think that it was the extent of her power?

[Iron Maw]

Originally Posted by Dist

Last time I was this disappointed was in No Game No Life, but whereas here nothing much even has happened,

And what critera does something count as "something happening" exactly? Lots of action? Monster of the week episodes? By that logic nothing ever happens in SoL, Sports, Drama, Mystery and whatever genre isn't strictly Action or Adventure.

Originally Posted by Vindi89

That's probably what ended up happening. But it's still a silly mistake for Fremy to make when she apparently investigates the abilities of her potential targets before considering them a threat.

Your assuming Fremy knew everything about Chamo to start. It's only implied that she knew her targets general profile and known ability, not all their skills.

So did Adlet and Hans lose this fight in the source material? Did they use another strategy to win? Because I can tell you right now if it's the same there's no way she reacts as fast as a bullet. Unless you're saying Hans moves as fast as a bullet or that Adlet can kick and launch Hans back at her as fast as a bullet.

Same strategy, but looking it over was actually the speed of a cannon shell. Eitherway it was completely unexpected attack for them both in speed and power because Adlet and Hans thought she was completely defenseless once Jyuma were bypassed. Chamo's reaction prior to that surprise attack implied she actually lured Hans (she called him an idiot as he got in range) into it. Adlet figured surprises like this is one of reasons that Fremy lost.

[Mangonel]

If we believe our MC, Fremy, Usagi-hime, and Hans, aren't the 7th. That leaves Chamot, Goldov, and Mora.

Chamot being the 7th would be an asspull imo, everything we know about her leads her to the shoot first then forget what you were going to ask them anyway archetype. Though some have mentioned she comes off as more devious in the source.

The only motivation I see for Goldov is jealousy over hime, but he didn't meet Adlet till they first encountered him with Fremy, so he would have had to plan his sabotage on the fly. Other motivation is perhaps some twisted idea that trapping her in the barrier will keep her safe from having to fight the demon king. That doesn't work cause the DK isn't going anywhere and she'd just die in the bubble.

Mora is the character we know the least about, and besides Hans' initial accusations the most aggressive anti-Adlet character as well. Besides being generally suspicious we just don't know anything about her, so speculating on motivations is practically impossible. Though her actions when they were first trapped did jive with Adlet's theory on the 7th. She was leading the 'investigation' until Hans started to explain locked rooms and was pointing at Adlet, at which point she just sat back. Its also awfully convenient shes the only character who can reliable reign in Chamot.

Edit: Anyone with source knowledge know how far we are in the LN?

[Yamada II]

Episode 9
So Adlet and Hans work together to defeat Chamot's disgusting puke friends. They tie her up and shut her mouth so that she doesn't puke anymore.

Adlet's hypothesis was shot down immediately by Flamie. Saints don't work like Adlet thinks. Adlet thought that the guy at the castle they passed on their way, lied to them and is working with the Seventh. Someone summoned a fog just as Adlet blowed the door open and then actually activated the barrier when they were trying to deactivate the fog. But this isn't possible so it is shot down immediately.

Back at the temple, Maura is getting more and more suspicious. She isn't even willing to believe anything Hans is saying. She is trying her best to get everyone against Adlet. Hans will probably continue to believe Adlet since what he saw wasn't Adlet fooling him.

Meanwhile, Nachetanya is stillness trying to prove to everyone that Hans is the seventh. She isn't even considering that someone else could be it too. This will probably result in her getting off guard or something and she might become a victim of the seventh.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Zefyris

Watch back, chamo is no longer incapacitated after Mora went in the temple. She's completely free to attack whenever she wants and doesn't do it because Mora wouldn't like it. Again, random accusation without proof is going to turn Chamo against Hans, and stopping Mora to free Chamo would mean taking Chamo in hostage. Since if both Chamo and Hans are true braves, then there is no reason to leave Chamo restrained as she cannot attack someone who isn't here any more. Shortest way for Hans to say "please kill me I'm the seventh".

Easy, bring it up before she untied her, she didn't untie Chamo until halfway through the conversation. Or just outright kill chamo, rather than taking her captive (which is the most logical choice), even if she is a "hero". She's a stupid child, that even if Maura is proven to her that she's the fake, she won't let anyone kill her. In every hero fight, most of the heroes die anyway in the past, so there's nothing that says all of them has to be alive.

I actually let out a "alright!" when I thought Hans killed her, but was disappointed when it was just a knock out.

[Iron Maw]

Killing anyone in this situation would be very bad when the 7th's identity is still unknown and it's one thing Adlet's trying to avoid. Besides Chamo having her moment being a spoiled brat isn't a good reason to kill her at all. Neutralizing her to calm her down is best decision.

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Easy, bring it up before she untied her, she didn't untie Chamo until halfway through the conversation. Or just outright kill chamo, rather than taking her captive (which is the most logical choice), even if she is a "hero". She's a stupid child, that even if Maura is proven to her that she's the fake, she won't let anyone kill her. In every hero fight, most of the heroes die anyway in the past, so there's nothing that says all of them has to be alive.

I actually let out a "alright!" when I thought Hans killed her, but was disappointed when it was just a knock out.

Killing anyone would have made it even harder for Adelt to prove his innocence as no one would be willing to give him to benefit of doubt anymore. The seventh is still roaming around so they can't afford to start killing each other. Even after they find the seventh they still need to the Demon King and they need as many allies as possible to do it, especially someone as strong as Chamo.

[Harbinger]

Chamo may have been a brat, but that's not a good reason to kill her. She's dangerous, but you're trying to defeat the enemy... and having her alive is a pretty good for that.

[Incest Emblem]

By the way, when did Hans call Nachetanya princess? I do not think that ever happened.

Of course, eyewitnesses recall events incorrectly all the time, so Nachetanya being wrong doesn't necessarily mean anything, but it would still be useful to know.

[Hedd]

My money is on Goldov. Maura seems a little too easy to swing against, her stubbornness is working against her. Goldov has been kinda playing foot soldier while loving the princess and having an axe to grind in the process. The mood is making me WANT to blame Maura which is why I think it's Goldov if that makes any sense.

[Mubyoshi]

It's probably Goldov, Maura so far seems like a red herring to me.

[Cicili]

Why is everyone writing off the bunny princess from the list of suspects now?

She could be the seventh also, she could just be on Aldet's side because she's taken a liking to him after the time they spent together, so she'll just frame anyone else besides Aldet.

Or better yet, she's pretending to be on his side. So when Aldet comes up to her to say "Hi" she'll stab him when he least expects it.

Aldet is smart, pretty good fighter and he's really good at getting away and not being found not to mention main character plot armor. From a story perspective, if anyone has a good chance of breaking through his plot armor and killing him, it'll either be Nashetania or Fremy because he actually trusts them.

It's that "The one who you thought was your best friend is actually your worst enemy" kinda twist.

And this is anime after all: Cutest girl of the bunch? Chances are good its a "trap".

[Mubyoshi]

Yeah I can also see bunny princess being the 7th, but then it would seem kinda cliche.

[thundrakkon]

Nache has been trying too hard to defend Adlet. She is actively searching for clues, unlike everyone else besides Adlet. Those two actions alone would not make sense if she is the 7th.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Cicili

Why is everyone writing off the bunny princess from the list of suspects now?

She could be the seventh also, she could just be on Aldet's side because she's taken a liking to him after the time they spent together, so she'll just frame anyone else besides Aldet.

Or better yet, she's pretending to be on his side. So when Aldet comes up to her to say "Hi" she'll stab him when he least expects it.

Aldet is smart, pretty good fighter and he's really good at getting away and not being found not to mention main character plot armor. From a story perspective, if anyone has a good chance of breaking through his plot armor and killing him, it'll either be Nashetania or Fremy because he actually trusts them.

It's that "The one who you thought was your best friend is actually your worst enemy" kinda twist.

And this is anime after all: Cutest girl of the bunch? Chances are good its a "trap".

It's not everyone. She's one of my two remaining suspects at this point. I've crossed off Adlet, Flamie, Hans, and Chamot from my list. I haven't crossed off Goldov one way or the other, but he's extremely unlikely. If his hatred of Adlet isn't a trick and really is because of jealousy, then he's really off my list. If he is the 7th it would really be a major disappointment since he hasn't really done anything during the investigation other than follow Nache around.

Maura is my highest suspect right now, and Nache is my second. I've seen others who are suspicious of her too. They thought her last line regarding working just as hard as Adlet and something about the way she had Goldov check her crest to be sinister and suspicious. I myself didn't catch that at first, but I can see where they're coming from.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by Iron Maw

Your assuming Fremy knew everything about Chamo to start. It's only implied that she knew her targets general profile and known ability, not all their skills.

Something like 'Chamo uses scouts' would be much easier to come by than say the limits of the Fog Saint's power don't you think? Yet she already knew the latter. Given Chamo's ability its a no-brainer too. Of course there's a high probability that there's summons around her.[/quote]

Adlet figured surprises like this is one of reasons that Fremy lost.

I can agree that if it got to a direct confrontation Fremy would have a hard time dealing with Chamo. My entire point was that it should have never gotten this far with the advantages Fremy hold. As you yourself said more like 'speed of a cannon' than speed of a bullet. With that, I'm just going to drop this now.

Originally Posted by Zefyris

Mora HAS a double standard for chamo, that's pretty obvious.

Doesn't mean he shouldn't stand his ground. I mean the world is at stake after all. The rest of your last paragraph is all just a big what-if that I don't agree with. I'll only say that I believe that not all of the Braves are dumb enough to get into a situation where they start picking sides without hearing the full story.

Uh what? She's just fooling around the whole time. Chit chating and poking fun at them. Of course she wasn't a little bit serious.

She said she was going to kill them. You mean she wasn't being serious? That Chamo... such a prankster. Adlet and Hans were 'chit-chatting' during their fight too. Does that mean Han's wasn't serious either?

She has never lost a fight and she has been restraining her power her whole life.

Where was it stated or is this also your opinion? All I remember was her killing her opponent in a tournament (not much restraint it seems) and Mora always getting mad when she used her powers. Also she got her powers at 7 years old right? So not exactly her whole llife...

She stopped throwing out more pets.

How are we suppose to know she can throw out more pets? What makes you think she can? If she can it hasn't been shown or stated yet.. unless I missed it. Eitherway, Adlet was able to distract all her fiends for a sec with that whistle. More wouldn't have changed anything. Just more fiends being distracted (the beauty of sound based attack).

Calling Hans stupid for trying what he did and the like. From the start to the end, she never really took them seriously. Like I said, Chamo is inexperienced. She's overconfident because she never fought any group of opponent that could take her down...

She's arrogant, I can agree with you on that.

and has been asked again and again by Mora to not use her full power.

When was she asked this, which episode?

Chamo is called "strongest saint in history since 1,000 years". The only person stronger than her is someone who soloed the demon god and its whole minion army alone whereas other saints have a hard time while being six to just fight the fiends army without having to deal with the full power demon god afterwards. Do you seriously think that it was the extent of her power?

I think that strong doesn't mean invincible and her weaknesses were exposed by a pair of opponents who weren't even trying to kill her. If anything they were the ones who needed to hold back more when dealing with her. Look at it like rock-paper-scissors if you wish.

[thundrakkon]

List of reasons why Goldov is still a suspect:

1) If indeed the procedure to activate the barrier was given incorrectly to the Braves, then Goldov pulling the sword out activated the barrier.
2) Goldov wanted to kill Adlet before judgement was made.
3) Goldov was the only one active in hunting Flamie, thus trying to eliminate a Brave before they meet up.
4) Goldov's motivation? He can potentially make a deal with the fiends to have the princess be his and have safe passage in the new Demon God world.
5) Goldov has no desire to search for clues even after the princess insisted on doing so.
6) Goldov has not done anything that would suggest he is not the 7th, whereas every other character has done at least one action that does not make sense if they were the 7th.
7) Goldov did not win in a fight in front of the Goddess of Fate. He might have let Nache win, but he did not win himself; hence, potentially not proving his worth.
8) Hans has already become the best bro sidekick to the harem lead, so Goldov is now expendable in a harem setting.

As for fog, who is to say that only the Saint of Fog is capable of doing that? What if a bunch of fiends working together can set that up? The action of using heat, water, and cold can also create the fog.

Well, Maura is still the most suspicious, but Goldov is definitely not out of the clear yet.

[Zefyris]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Easy, bring it up before she untied her, she didn't untie Chamo until halfway through the conversation. Or just outright kill chamo, rather than taking her captive (which is the most logical choice), even if she is a "hero". She's a stupid child, that even if Maura is proven to her that she's the fake, she won't let anyone kill her. In every hero fight, most of the heroes die anyway in the past, so there's nothing that says all of them has to be alive.

I actually let out a "alright!" when I thought Hans killed her, but was disappointed when it was just a knock out.

Are you for real? While knowing she's a real brave, killing her would be disastrous... That would mean the end of the whole humanity in that case, especially if Hans himself is a real one too :/. Because Hans would be killed afterwards for being the traitor since he mercilessly killed chamo. And then oh, two rokka down, only 4 remaining and the mission isn't even started. And still in the mist since if none of those two are the culprit then killing them won't mean anything. Then who's next? Adlet? If he's the real deal too, here we go, 3 left. Then who? Mora? Fremy?

Your choice is the worst ever because it will clearly trigger a chain death of real rokka until the fake one is finally killed almost by sheer luck. Well, screw humanity, that loli is annoying me so I want her dead". Just lol. Even if she is the only one who were to die in that situation, the result would still be catastrophic. Losing the most powerful ally before starting the mission makes the mission almost impossible if not completely impossible obviously.

She said she was going to kill them. You mean she wasn't being serious? That Chamo... such a prankster. Adlet and Hans were 'chit-chatting' during their fight too. Does that mean Han's wasn't serious either?

uh what again? Deciding to kill them has nothing to do with using all her power or not. When you try to kill an ant, are you giving your all? To CHamo most humans aren't more dangerous than ants, including soldiers. Who would be serious against that. What I say is, she never felt the need aganst the two to become serious. She thought all along that their struggle was useless and that she would kill them without being in any danger. Why would she become serious and use her full power in those conditions? Be real here, you're not even logical. Look at her attitude the whole fight. She's overconfident and has the long habit to not use her full power at all in any fight. Even if it's a life or death fight, for Chamo it's not life or death, it's life for her and maybe death for the opponent if she decides to. Just like you crushing an ant.

I think that strong doesn't mean invincible and her weaknesses were exposed by a pair of opponents who weren't even trying to kill her. If anything they were the ones who needed to hold back more when dealing with her. Look at it like rock-paper-scissors if you wish.

/facepalm. Who said she was invincible? They didn't restrain themselves. There is no difference in difficulty in "reaching CHamo and knock her out" and "reaching chamo and kill her". The whole difficulty is reaching her. They went all out just to do it. They were fighting with their life in the line. Chamo never felt that way.

Where was it stated or is this also your opinion? All I remember was her killing her opponent in a tournament (not much restraint it seems) and Mora always getting mad when she used her powers. Also she got her powers at 7 years old right? So not exactly her whole llife...

Mora and Chamo explained that episode 5. That she spent a lot of time stopping/restraining Chamo. That episode of killing someone in the tournament is clearly presented this way "I made a mistake" she said. So she WAS restraining herself and still made a mistake by killing her opponent. IF she was going all out, she wouldn't say that she "made a mistake".

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by Zefyris

uh what again? Deciding to kill them has nothing to do with using all her power or not. When you try to kill an ant, are you giving your all?

An ant can't knock me out or kill me. I don't know if she used all her powers or not. How do you know she didn't use all her powers? Was there an episode that listed all of her powers? And on the subject do you believe Adlet and Hans used all their capabilities on her? Do you think Adlet was going to kill the demon lord with just some flames, a whistle and dart needles? That box on his back must carry alot of needles don't you think? Oh.. wait he did mention a secret weapon didn't he...

Either way, she wasn't given a chance to use any other abilities if she had them. She made her move and payed dearly for it. You don't get to start a fight, lose it due to stupidity and then come back and say I only lost cause I wasn't serious. You'll just sound like a sore loser.

Look at her attitude the whole fight. She's overconfident....

She's arrogant and funny enough that also adds to her list of weaknesses.

Just like you crushing an ant.

Hey you take that back! I've never killed an ant (knowingly). Live and let live.

/facepalm. Who said she was invincible? They didn't restrain themselves. There is no difference in difficulty in "reaching CHamo and knock her out" and "reaching chamo and kill her". The whole difficulty is reaching her. They went all out just to do it. They were fighting with their life in the line. Chamo never felt that way.

No need for a tantrum stay with me here. Of course they restrained themselves. Why bother going in for a close range attack (with a higher chance of death) when there's a higher chance of success throwing projectiles at her once those fiends were stunned. Or do you believe that Adlet and Hans are faster than projectiles and that kicking Hans back at her was the best chance of success? I'd hope not. Of course projectiles mean a higher chance of killing Chamo.. oh but they didn't want to do that right? For people fighting for their lives they were being really considerate of their attacker, putting themselves in even more harm for her sake. But that's not really going all out is it? No desperation of kill or be killed.

Mora and Chamo explained that episode 5. That she spent a lot of time stopping/restraining Chamo.

She said Chamo was difficult to deal with, which indicates a lack of restraint in most cases.

That episode of killing someone in the tournament is clearly presented this way "I made a mistake" she said. So she WAS restraining herself and still made a mistake by killing her opponent. IF she was going all out, she wouldn't say that she "made a mistake".

Yeah, the mistake was she showed no restraint.