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Mach56gs · 2015-09-10, 23:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceHism

I don't play top lane so I don't have that ability to counter pick them. I play bot lane.

Either way, jax is terrible. His base stats are absolutely shit and he will lose to Darius and fiora in lane in plat really hard. By the time jax gets like 2 items, Darius or fiora might have 4 and already contributed to many team fights and objectives around the map. Darius and fiora do more than jax with less gold. If the goal of jax is to get to late game, juggernauts will ensure that he can't get to late game while having similar power scaling

Fiora is not a juggernaut though.

Hm. As a Jax main, I feel obliged to disagree. Naturally his stats are a low, but his passive and his E make Darius and Fiora easy to deal with. Especially with his latest buffs that increase his active armor gain at lvl 6 and the reduced mana cost on E. His early game has gotten remarkably stronger.

Jax certainly does more than Fiora though, his stun has such ridiculous play-making potential. Darius has his pull so it's a wash (though I do agree Darius is excruciatingly powerful).

This is from my experience playing in top lane silver. My ability to outplay Darius with his Q with my leap strike and kite Fiora is not indicative of how higher-elo matchups play out, but a high-level Jax should have the advantage in my personal opinion.

He should be able sustain in lane easily, and keep up with these laners.

DJ_RockmanX · 2015-09-11, 00:21

Plat+ stats point to the contrary on those matchups:

http://champion.gg/champion/Jax/Top
http://champion.gg/matchup/Jax/Fiora/Top
http://champion.gg/matchup/Jax/Darius/Top

Lane may be survivable, but the ramp up time it takes to get a Jax rolling is the thing that really cripples him as a champion. He only just starts breaking even on winrate at around 35-40 minutes, assuming that in most games he hasn't been fed out of his mind before 20 minutes.

~~Pocari_Sweat~~ · 2015-09-11, 01:17

If you're playing jax, you might as well as be playing irelia. they are somewhat similar except jax scales harder in the lategame whilst irelia has one of the highest midgame spikes in the game when she gets triforce. And since games don't last beyond the 35 to 40 min range where she falls off she would be making plays till then.

However I don't like toplane atm since I don't play fiora gp darius or garen and that's all I been seeing lately.

mid and jg is what I play and if I have to bot I sup since I hate adc.

Eisdrache · 2015-09-11, 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceHism

I don't play top lane so I don't have that ability to counter pick them. I play bot lane.

Either way, jax is terrible. His base stats are absolutely shit and he will lose to Darius and fiora in lane in plat really hard. By the time jax gets like 2 items, Darius or fiora might have 4 and already contributed to many team fights and objectives around the map. Darius and fiora do more than jax with less gold. If the goal of jax is to get to late game, juggernauts will ensure that he can't get to late game while having similar power scaling

Fiora is not a juggernaut though.

If you have 2 items when the enemy laner has 4 then you have other problems than being Jax. He should be fine against Darius and while Fiora is a tough match-up, it's still doable. Let's not forget that both of them just got buffed and their numbers are most likely slightly too high right now.

Mach56gs · 2015-09-12, 00:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJ_RockmanX

Plat+ stats point to the contrary on those matchups:

http://champion.gg/champion/Jax/Top
http://champion.gg/matchup/Jax/Fiora/Top
http://champion.gg/matchup/Jax/Darius/Top

Lane may be survivable, but the ramp up time it takes to get a Jax rolling is the thing that really cripples him as a champion. He only just starts breaking even on winrate at around 35-40 minutes, assuming that in most games he hasn't been fed out of his mind before 20 minutes.

I'm gonna throw ye old "rework champion novelty" excuse here. Fiora and Darius, along with the rest of the Juggernauts in this set of changes are fresh blood and need some acclimation. Most of the data that has collected doesn't reflect how Jax faired before the reworks, although what cannot be overlooked is the fact that both Darius and Fiora are played twice more often then Jax, etc.

Eragon · 2015-09-12, 15:29

Spoiler for Groups Draw:

Eisdrache · 2015-09-12, 16:01

Images

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

A: Koo > CLG > Wolves > paiN
Koo is by far the favourite in this group, it's not even a question. CLG got the absolute dream with drawing two rather weak teams.

B: ???
The absolute death group. IG might be the strongest team on paper but aside of C9 all three teams can easily beat each other on a good day. Speaking of C9, sorry but you got an even worse group than TSM.

C: SKT > EDG > H2K > Titans
Faker vs Ryu AND MSI final rematch lmaooooo. Aside of that this is a pretty clear-cut group. H2K and Titans don't even register to the other two teams.

D: LGD > KT > Origen > TSM
LGD and KT will advance. Origen is definitely strong but they're not quite on the same level. TSM ... well they will need a massive improvement to even get a single game.

Eragon · 2015-09-12, 16:58

I hope there is someway we can get LGD vs SKT final. It will be

Also, I want to see C9 get absolutely rekt.

Kotohono · 2015-09-12, 18:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

If you have 2 items when the enemy laner has 4 then you have other problems than being Jax. He should be fine against Darius and while Fiora is a tough match-up, it's still doable. Let's not forget that both of them just got buffed and their numbers are most likely slightly too high right now.

Both of them have nerfs on the PBE currently, so they'll be taken down a bit in 5.18.

IceHism · 2015-09-12, 18:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

If you have 2 items when the enemy laner has 4 then you have other problems than being Jax. He should be fine against Darius and while Fiora is a tough match-up, it's still doable. Let's not forget that both of them just got buffed and their numbers are most likely slightly too high right now.

You seem to be underestimating the power of snowballing in solo queue. In the early game, jax will get wrecked because of terrible base stats and an overall weak pre-6 kit and lack of sustain against darius/fiora. When the tops start teleporting bot lane for those early 4/5 vs 4/5 teamfights to dragons, darius and fiora will still contribute more than jax because their skills are more suited for it at that point in time. Therefore, they snowball way harder than jax will. And lastly, i don't play jax or top lane usually. When the majority of games end at about 35-40 minutes, jax just doesn't have much room to reach his full late game potential.

And of course their numbers are overtuned. I'm complaining about this patch in particular, not some other iteration of darius/fiora

Mach56gs · 2015-09-13, 13:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceHism

You seem to be underestimating the power of snowballing in solo queue. In the early game, jax will get wrecked because of terrible base stats and an overall weak pre-6 kit and lack of sustain against darius/fiora. When the tops start teleporting bot lane for those early 4/5 vs 4/5 teamfights to dragons, darius and fiora will still contribute more than jax because their skills are more suited for it at that point in time. Therefore, they snowball way harder than jax will. And lastly, i don't play jax or top lane usually. When the majority of games end at about 35-40 minutes, jax just doesn't have much room to reach his full late game potential.

And of course their numbers are overtuned. I'm complaining about this patch in particular, not some other iteration of darius/fiora

I do not agree! Jax has an AOE stun and a jump, while Fiora has a dash and a counter-CC. The only reason why Fiora is considered more meta is because of her strong stats but considering the situation a stun could do much more than what Fiora offers. Especially at the early-game dragons!

But regardless, most of the juggernauts and Fiora are overtuned and thus they are more meta. Still think Jax has the ability to make them smart though.

IceHism · 2015-09-13, 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mach56gs

I do not agree! Jax has an AOE stun and a jump, while Fiora has a dash and a counter-CC. The only reason why Fiora is considered more meta is because of her strong stats but considering the situation a stun could do much more than what Fiora offers. Especially at the early-game dragons!

But regardless, most of the juggernauts and Fiora are overtuned and thus they are more meta. Still think Jax has the ability to make them smart though.

It's easy to list that jax has an aoe stun. It's much harder in practice to actually get more than 1 person in it unless they're all grouping up just for you to stun them. It's a melee range small aoe stun that lasts 1 second and it requires you to use your mobility spell to even hit it. Maybe you get a big aoe wombo combo but that wrecks every teamcomp so that scenario doesn't matter.
You can literally make anything sound op by just listing the things they can do. In practice, you will get nowhere close to how you describe it.

But let's say you hit it on 1 person as that is guaranteed. And then what? You have very little dmg and mvspd right after that. Like, is the enemy mid laner or adc just gonna stand there and let you hit him until he is dead? I don't understand why you value a 1 second cc and a small jump on a long 9 second cooldown when jax has zero damage to go with it in the early game. Who is going to make up for all the destruction that fiora, Darius, or garen will do to your team in a teamfight? Especially when two of them have strong executes and tankyness and the 3rd one has so much mobility and burst damage with her q, e and ult? If you need two people to make up for that Darius or fiora or garen, then that is the definition of being weak and inefficient. If your answer is to run away and don't fight, then you have pretty much just lost the objective.

In fact, the juggernauts don't even have to initiate the fight, they just have someone else do it for them. At that point, it'll be impossible to dodge their damage.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sort...&order=descend
Look at these ban rates. 50% or higher for all juggernauts and fiora. If jax was the secret answer, masters or challengers would actually be using him. Instead, jax has a 46% win rate in the top lane!

Mach56gs · 2015-09-13, 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceHism

It's easy to list that jax has an aoe stun. It's much harder in practice to actually get more than 1 person in it unless they're all grouping up just for you to stun them. It's a melee range small aoe stun that lasts 1 second and it requires you to use your mobility spell to even hit it.

But let's say you hit it on 1 person as that is guaranteed. And then what? You have very little dmg and mvspd right after that. Like, is the enemy mid laner or adc just gonna stand there and let you hit him until he is dead? I don't understand why you value a 1 second cc and a small jump on a long 9 second cooldown when jax has zero damage to go with it in the early game. Who is going to make up for all the destruction that fiora, Darius, or garen will do to your team in a teamfight? Especially when two of them have strong executes and tankyness and the 3rd one has so much mobility and burst damage with her q, e and ult? If you need two people to make up for that Darius or fiora or garen, then that is the definition of being weak and inefficient.

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sort...&order=descend
Look at these ban rates. 50% or higher for all juggernauts and fiora. If jax was the secret answer, masters or challengers would actually be using him. Instead, jax has a 46% win rate in the top lane!

Werlyb does well with him.... >__>

What can I say? Stats don't mean everything. Azir is pretty low in Champion GG....

Actually, last place. But he's still freaking meta as heck! His potential is still very high. Like Jax!

Now, I do agree that Fiora is more meta because of her damage and reliability, did not deny that.

But a Jax with a jump stun and in the most extreme cases a flash can guarantee a stun on at least one person. In a dragon fight, a stun on the back line (which have only built two items at this point, lets say) does a lot! Even if Jax has trinity force its the bottom requirement for him to chunk down a carry with an empowered E and R proc. Then book to the hills with your R tanking...

....But of course that's hypothetical and completely reliant on how the game has developed.

But what isn't hypothetical is that a good Jax player can get a stun of pretty much garen-teed if he doesn't ballz it up in some way. Timed well its harder to dodge then a Malphite R because the flash portion is instantaneous. Thats some serious pressure that Jax brings to early game teamfights, a 1 second stun isn't a laughing matter if your team has follow-up!

But Fiora? Her riposte (while seriously good), doesn't have the mobility that Jax's E has. Which makes her a little less adept at initiating and making CC plays. She has her small dash that gives her mobility, but is reliant on actually hitting the enemy to not have a ridiculously large cooldown. Meanwhile, Jax's leap strike has more range and is a lot more definitive and reliable.

So to sum up, Fiora consistently has better meta standing and strength than Jax because of her strong stats, but Jax played well can offset that with his kit and his playmaking ability.

( I don't know if you follow YamatoCannon, but basically he released a video predicting the meta picks at worlds. Honestly I don't agree with his prediction, but coincidentally enough he thinks Irelia/Jax may be played top lane along with the juggernauts, although he predicts that the juggernauts will most likely be banned in certain situations. You can see the vid and his predictions for all lanes/roles here.)

And my challenger-climb update

In my gold promos, 1 for 1 so far! Fingers are crossed!

IceHism · 2015-09-13, 18:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mach56gs

Werlyb does well with him.... >__>

What can I say? Stats don't mean everything. Azir is pretty low in Champion GG....

Actually, last place. But he's still freaking meta as heck! His potential is still very high. Like Jax!

Now, I do agree that Fiora is more meta because of her damage and reliability, did not deny that.

But a Jax with a jump stun and in the most extreme cases a flash can guarantee a stun on at least one person. In a dragon fight, a stun on the back line (which have only built two items at this point, lets say) does a lot! Even if Jax has trinity force its the bottom requirement for him to chunk down a carry with an empowered E and R proc. Then book to the hills with your R tanking...

....But of course that's hypothetical and completely reliant on how the game has developed.

But what isn't hypothetical is that a good Jax player can get a stun of pretty much garen-teed if he doesn't ballz it up in some way. Timed well its harder to dodge then a Malphite R because the flash portion is instantaneous. Thats some serious pressure that Jax brings to early game teamfights, a 1 second stun isn't a laughing matter if your team has follow-up!

But Fiora? Her riposte (while seriously good), doesn't have the mobility that Jax's E has. Which makes her a little less adept at initiating and making CC plays. She has her small dash that gives her mobility, but is reliant on actually hitting the enemy to not have a ridiculously large cooldown. Meanwhile, Jax's leap strike has more range and is a lot more definitive and reliable.

So to sum up, Fiora consistently has better meta standing and strength than Jax because of her strong stats, but Jax played well can offset that with his kit and his playmaking ability.

( I don't know if you follow YamatoCannon, but basically he released a video predicting the meta picks at worlds. Honestly I don't agree with his prediction, but coincidentally enough he thinks Irelia/Jax may be played top lane along with the juggernauts, although he predicts that the juggernauts will most likely be banned in certain situations. You can see the vid and his predictions for all lanes/roles here.)

And my challenger-climb update

In my gold promos, 1 for 1 so far! Fingers are crossed!

The link I posted doesn't work for competitive I agree. But its a fact that pro games and my average soloq ones are almost completely different. I'm not gonna get a laneswap to help me get fed. Comparing the very top level to plebs like us doesn't work and is completely ignoring how OP the juggernauts and fiora are in soloq.

Umm, I don't think you know what early dragon fights are... I meant in cases where mid and top come down or tp to bot as early as 12 minutes when adcs haven't even completed 1 item. You can't get Trinity force in 11 mins unless the opponent literally fed you. Two items is like 20 minutes. By that point, the game already snowballed quite a bit.

Fiora doesn't need to initiate and she should never do so. She waits around and then goes in on a squishy when most of the cc abilities are used already

Mach56gs · 2015-09-13, 18:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by IceHism

The link I posted doesn't work for competitive I agree. But its a fact that pro games and my average soloq ones are almost completely different. I'm not gonna get a laneswap to help me get fed. Comparing the very top level to plebs like us doesn't work and is completely ignoring how OP the juggernauts and fiora are in soloq.

Umm, I don't think you know what early dragon fights are... I meant in cases where mid and top come down or tp to bot as early as 12 minutes when adcs haven't even completed 1 item. You can't get Trinity force in 11 mins unless the opponent literally fed you. Two items is like 20 minutes. By that point, the game already snowballed quite a bit.

Fiora doesn't need to initiate and she should never do so. She waits around and then goes in on a squishy when most of the cc abilities are used already

Good catch, Jax should not have TF at that point xP

But a sheen or components of a phage could do such a number, and the whole point is that Jax's skills are still stronger than Fiora's in a straightforward teamfight because of their initiation potential.

As for Azir in tournament play, I just drew that point that stats don't count out playmaking potential. Taking a look at Azir's winrate in correlation to how many times you've played him, he spikes in winrate by a lot. He's difficult, just like Jax vs. Fiora is difficult, but an experienced enough player who mains that champ can make it work.

All in all, Fiora vs Jax isn't as a hard counter or fatal as playing against a Skarner jungle LOL.

Eisdrache · 2015-09-13, 22:32

Low level soloQ (as in everything below top10 diamond) doesn't really matter in terms of balancing. There's always lots of complaining how X or Y are overpowered against Z but actually you're simply not playing Z to even half of its potential.

And since worlds will be played on 5.18 that will most likely nerf all of these champions this is just a fleeting issue for a few weeks.

Eragon · 2015-09-13, 22:36

Fiora and Darius seem to be the only problem in 5.17. I would ban GP more but, nobody seems to play it in Gold. Even Darius isn't a problem except for idiots who start running away when he starts channeling his Q. It seems nobody fucking read the patch notes - its does not heal him if you don't get hit by the blade.

Outside of those two I feel like, Yasuo is a must ban for your own team - never trust Yasuo players. Tbh, I would rather play against Darius and Fiora then play against fucking Wukong. God damned monkey has absurd AD ratios.

Kotohono · 2015-09-14, 04:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eisdrache

Low level soloQ (as in everything below top10 diamond) doesn't really matter in terms of balancing. There's always lots of complaining how X or Y are overpowered against Z but actually you're simply not playing Z to even half of its potential.

And since worlds will be played on 5.18 that will most likely nerf all of these champions this is just a fleeting issue for a few weeks.

I really disagree when you're as OP as Morde is right now it can impact anyone (who has a 62% win rate in plat+ as adc right now).

As his 3rd Q is just insane scaling.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/FjHt30BXMV4

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Kyero Fox · 2015-09-14, 07:14

He makes quite a few points. One of the main reasons I quit too.

Eisdrache · 2015-09-14, 09:56

"Why am I being banned for talking shit in a video game?" He forgot to add all the other instances that he was toxic

Even if I understand the frustration about having retarded team mates the video instantly lost its legitimation at that point.

2015-09-12, 15:29	Link #6066
Eragon Still Alive Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Somewhere far far away Age: 31	Spoiler for Groups Draw: GROUP DRAW - FINAL A - Counter Logic Gaming, Flash Wolves, Koo Tigers, paiN Gaming B - Fnatic, Invictus Gaming, AHQ, Cloud 9 C - SK Telecom, H2K, Edward Gaming, Bangkok Titans D - LGD Gaming, KT Rolster, Team SoloMid, Origen TSM fucked LMAOOO. CLG getting their due after 3 years hahahaha __________________ Signature courtesy of rikikai

2015-09-12, 16:58	Link #6068
Eragon Still Alive Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Somewhere far far away Age: 31	I hope there is someway we can get LGD vs SKT final. It will be Also, I want to see C9 get absolutely rekt. __________________ Signature courtesy of rikikai Last edited by Eragon; 2015-09-12 at 17:17.

2015-09-13, 22:36	Link #6077
Eragon Still Alive Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Somewhere far far away Age: 31	Fiora and Darius seem to be the only problem in 5.17. I would ban GP more but, nobody seems to play it in Gold. Even Darius isn't a problem except for idiots who start running away when he starts channeling his Q. It seems nobody fucking read the patch notes - its does not heal him if you don't get hit by the blade. Outside of those two I feel like, Yasuo is a must ban for your own team - never trust Yasuo players. Tbh, I would rather play against Darius and Fiora then play against fucking Wukong. God damned monkey has absurd AD ratios. __________________ Signature courtesy of rikikai

2015-09-14, 07:14	Link #6079
Kyero Fox Tastes Cloudy Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Snake Way Age: 35	<p>No iframe support, please <a href="http://youtu.be/VjzgbZL12VI">watch on YouTube</a>.</p> He makes quite a few points. One of the main reasons I quit too. __________________

2015-09-11, 00:21	Link #6062
DJ_RockmanX 性転換団長 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Socal Age: 34	Plat+ stats point to the contrary on those matchups: http://champion.gg/champion/Jax/Top http://champion.gg/matchup/Jax/Fiora/Top http://champion.gg/matchup/Jax/Darius/Top Lane may be survivable, but the ramp up time it takes to get a Jax rolling is the thing that really cripples him as a champion. He only just starts breaking even on winrate at around 35-40 minutes, assuming that in most games he hasn't been fed out of his mind before 20 minutes.

2015-09-11, 01:17	Link #6063
~~Pocari_Sweat~~ <em style="color:#808080;">Disabled By Request</em> Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Australia	If you're playing jax, you might as well as be playing irelia. they are somewhat similar except jax scales harder in the lategame whilst irelia has one of the highest midgame spikes in the game when she gets triforce. And since games don't last beyond the 35 to 40 min range where she falls off she would be making plays till then. However I don't like toplane atm since I don't play fiora gp darius or garen and that's all I been seeing lately. mid and jg is what I play and if I have to bot I sup since I hate adc.

2015-09-12, 16:01	Link #6067
Eisdrache Part-time misanthrope Join Date: Mar 2007	Images Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload? A: Koo > CLG > Wolves > paiN Koo is by far the favourite in this group, it's not even a question. CLG got the absolute dream with drawing two rather weak teams. B: ??? The absolute death group. IG might be the strongest team on paper but aside of C9 all three teams can easily beat each other on a good day. Speaking of C9, sorry but you got an even worse group than TSM. C: SKT > EDG > H2K > Titans Faker vs Ryu AND MSI final rematch lmaooooo. Aside of that this is a pretty clear-cut group. H2K and Titans don't even register to the other two teams. D: LGD > KT > Origen > TSM LGD and KT will advance. Origen is definitely strong but they're not quite on the same level. TSM ... well they will need a massive improvement to even get a single game.

2015-09-13, 22:32	Link #6076
Eisdrache Part-time misanthrope Join Date: Mar 2007	Low level soloQ (as in everything below top10 diamond) doesn't really matter in terms of balancing. There's always lots of complaining how X or Y are overpowered against Z but actually you're simply not playing Z to even half of its potential. And since worlds will be played on 5.18 that will most likely nerf all of these champions this is just a fleeting issue for a few weeks.

2015-09-14, 09:56	Link #6080
Eisdrache Part-time misanthrope Join Date: Mar 2007	"Why am I being banned for talking shit in a video game?" He forgot to add all the other instances that he was toxic Even if I understand the frustration about having retarded team mates the video instantly lost its legitimation at that point.