Explosion and shootings at Paris 11/13/2015

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

The British did better in their Empire days than France did?

The British (and the Dutch so to say) had generally excellent relations with the Mideastern world before the dissolution of their empires post 1800s. They screwed it up with the write-and-dump Balfour Declaration.

The French were pretty uppity people in their African colonies, so you could say, it is sins of their fathers.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Question : why France and not the UK?

Muslims in France mostly originate from Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia while in the UK most Muslims have Pakistani roots. In Europe, north Africans struggle a lot more to integrate and succeed in society in comparison to Asians. So there are also sociology-cultural factors at work. In addition the former countries have been affected by the "Arab Spring" revolutions which will also have affected the diaspora.

[Jazzrat]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

@Jazzrat: well, they still attacked a Jewish museum in the Sablon area last year and the European Community is right here, so I'd say we still have plenty of alluring targets, and seeing the way the police is clamping down on the city and taking a closer look to Molenbeek (the "terrorist hotbed"), there's a possibility some of these sleeping cells are growing impatient and unpredictable watching the proverbial noose tightening around their necks.

That's interesting to note. Doesn't sound like these terrorist are being professional about it. Atleast not on the same level as what the old Al Qaeda was doing. I just got reminded that ISIS was the rabid branch that fractured out of Al Qaeda so that might explain a bit in their attitude.

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Question : why France and not the UK?

Does UK still have armies abroad intervening in Muslim nations other than Afghanistan? Not to mention, UK is pretty tight when it comes to counter terrorism and surveillance.. probably a tougher nut to crack than France. But most of all, I think France is just an easy but very visible target for terrorism and there's probably a lot more to gain than attacking UK.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Question : why France and not the UK?

The French government, and the French people, have a strong devotion to secularism tracing back to, first, the Revolution, and later the anti-clerical battles at the turn of the twentieth century. Issues like wearing head scarves in schools have been a persistent controversy in France.

The UK, in contrast, has an established religion.

Plus it's difficult to drive across the English Channel. Britain does still have the advantage of being islands not attached to continental Europe.

[Renegade334]

Originally Posted by Jazzrat

That's interesting to note. Doesn't sound like these terrorist are being professional about it. Atleast not on the same level as what the old Al Qaeda was doing. I just got reminded that ISIS was the rabid branch that fractured out of Al Qaeda so that might explain a bit in their attitude.

Yeah, Al Qaeda looked far more disciplined and well-structured than ISIS, though it was not immune to inner power struggles, especially when Mullah Omar sought to supplant Bin Laden and take over. Before his death, OBL was just an old, retired dude cooped in his room mulling over bygones, trying to keep his faction of followers and his way of thinking alive, even as the "old guard" was being replaced on the frontlines. AQ is still made of bloodthirsty fighters, but if you were to be taken prisoner by Islamic terrorists, you should pray they're AQ rather than ISIS, because in the latter case the last hope for your future pretty much flew through the window and onto the pavement 60 floors below. AQ will try to ransom you to get some revenue, whereas ISIS will just shish-kabob you for sport.

ISIS, OTOH, is far more diverse - even to the point of causing a lot of distrust among its components. In certain cases, ISIS even had to create nationality-specific battalions to avoid communication (read: language barrier) issues and improve control over them. There were also some occurrences where groups from different origins turned on each other and some warlords had to post snipers of their own ethnic group/tribe on their HQ's roof, whenever they were visited by members of a "foreign" battalion.

So, yeah, they do suck at cohesion in certain aspects, but they're far more dangerous in a different way.

Does UK still have armies abroad intervening in Muslim nations other than Afghanistan? Not to mention, UK is pretty tight when it comes to counter terrorism and surveillance.. probably a tougher nut to crack than France. But most of all, I think France is just an easy but very visible target for terrorism and there's probably a lot more to gain than attacking UK.

The UK has a VERY sizable pool of Muslims and there are even videos of Bobbies being chased from a London neighborhood by a mob of angry Muslims to show you that they aren't afraid to rise against the authorities. And (prepare to facepalm here) last week, in the wake of the Paris attacks, the London police announced that it wouldn't up-arm its personnel, and that it was proud to be a largely weapons-free force (at least for the beat cops, the emergency response units are definitely packing heat). And before it's mentioned, the famous SAS are up in Hereford (Herefordshire), so they don't count as local law enforcement forces.

Oh, and remember that in 2013 a soldier was butchered in south London in full view of bystanders by two British Nigerians who sought to avenge Muslims killed by British forces overseas. They weren't members of ISIS, but the UK has already seen at least one case of savagery. They know what can happen should ISIS decide to come by and say hello. They don't want a repeat of the 2005 Underground and bus bombings that killed 52 people.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Jazzrat

That's interesting to note. Doesn't sound like these terrorist are being professional about it. Atleast not on the same level as what the old Al Qaeda was doing. I just got reminded that ISIS was the rabid branch that fractured out of Al Qaeda so that might explain a bit in their attitude.

The lack of professionalism and organization prevented the Paris attacks to reach a 9-11 like death toll. I fear to think what would have happened if the terrorists had blocked all the exits of the Bataclan or a group had entered the Stade de France.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Bri

The lack of professionalism and organization prevented the Paris attacks to reach a 9-11 like death toll. I fear to think what would have happened if the terrorists had blocked all the exits of the Bataclan or a group had entered the Stade de France.

You know, now you have said that, it seems that it is either the hardcore Islamists don't have the guts to join and carry out this attack, or they are not having sufficient support.

[rantaid]

by the way this is just happened, a terrorism at Thamrin, Sarinah; Jakarta (Indonesia) with same Modus Operandi with Paris and Istanbul.

explosion followed with shooting. the suspect wear whole white attire. same old suspect again i presume....

ps. clatified. only Thamrin. about white attire, there is citizen journalism video. so it is half confirmed (not official statement though)

ps.2. the white is police. the suspects wore casual black tshirt and blue.

ps.3. We are not afraid. fuck you.

[Azuma Denton]

That is hoax.
The bombing and shooting only happen at one place in Jakarta.
And the suspects wears casual attire.

[Yu Ominae]

Me thinks we should discuss the Jakarta stuff in another thread.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by rantaid

by the way this is just happened, a terrorism at Thamrin, Sarinah; Jakarta (Indonesia) with same Modus Operandi with Paris and Istanbul.

explosion followed with shooting. the suspect wear whole white attire. same old suspect again i presume....

ps. clatified. only Thamrin. about white attire, there is citizen journalism video. so it is half confirmed (not official statement though)

ps.2. the white is police. the suspects wore casual black tshirt and blue.

ps.3. We are not afraid. fuck you.

Yeah. There is that satay seller who is still selling his food during the bombing. Fuck them all wannabe terrorsts.

Originally Posted by Yu Ominae

Me thinks we should discuss the Jakarta stuff in another thread.

I think so too. It is a separate shooting incident.

[rantaid]

@SaintessHeart

satay are more important than those morons anyway... so keep calm and order a new portion.

[Yu Ominae]

Belgian DSU raised a suspected hideout of Abdeslam. He got away since someone covered for him.

[Renegade334]

Well, it appears to be official.

Belgian police just captured Salah Abdeslam, the only terrorist "survivor" of the Paris attacks, who had been hiding in Molenbeek-Saint-Jean (the predominantly Muslim borough where the Paris plot was hatched and coordinated) since November. Both he and another man were shot in the leg after refusing to comply with the police's summons. Good timing, too: François Hollande was in Brussels at the European Community building to discuss the Turkey-refugee issue and he's now with the Belgian premier, discussing how to handle this (Abdeslam and the other guy will probably be extradited, no mistake on that).

[KiraYamatoFan]

Good news to know. I hope the authorities will give that animal the worst time of his life.

[Yu Ominae]

The previous raid done by DSU killed an Algerian illegal when Abdeslam got away.

Analysts suggest that the raid is a show of distrust between police and the Muslim community. Also they talk about the complications of interactions between the levels of Belgian federalism due to Flemish and French.

[Yu Ominae]

CNN picked up a headline a day or so that Abdeslam's relatives will appeal any extradition order to France.

[Renegade334]

His lawyer, Sven Mary (who, interestingly, was contacted by a member of Abdeslam's entourage, a few weeks before his arrest, to defend him), said he'd fight it. Abdeslam himself has officially voiced opposition to his extradition.

However, the point is moot. Extradition is a process wherein two sovereign nations without any overarching legal framework agree to remand a specific criminal (or group thereof) into each other's care (usually under the auspices of special treaties and whatnot), but in this case, Abdeslam is targeted by a European Arrest Warrant (ergo, European law - the said overarching framework), which means that there might not even be talk of a extradition, but a form of rendition, an express procedure that might only take weeks (the time for the said detainee's lawyer to file counter-procedures, for fairness' sake) instead of months. Everyone here already knows the writing's on the wall: "Sooner or later, he'll be judged in France". Sven Mary will probably try to stall the process, but he'll only slow it down ever so slightly. There's too much legal and political momentum behind for him to stop it.

Besides, the extraordinary magnitude of his crimes in France, which by far eclipse whatever he could be tried for in Belgium (association with terrorism, acts of terror, evading law enforcement, etc, etc, etc), will definitely ensure he'll be handed over to the French before any criminal case be opened against him here in Belgium. The French literally get first dibs by default.