2016-01-22, 04:47 | Link #35481 |
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The trick ending happens in a parallel universe.
I guess choosing the Magic Ending as canon is more appealing than the Trick Ending in terms of fan service and the "Happy Ending"- Plot in EP8. Unless there is a plan for a Umineko or When They Cry sequel that presents characters and background from the four arcs, the actual real ending has less weight for now and viewers should express their own views. |
2016-01-22, 18:17 | Link #35482 | |||
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2016-01-22, 20:02 | Link #35483 | ||
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When the manga version of Ep 8 wasn't yet finished Ryukishi already stated in an interview that the true ending was the magic one and that the trick one was a bonus. As however some fans were still confused in the manga he clarified that the choice that Ange, the Ange we've been reading about, took was the magic ending, and that the trick ending was merely a possibility she could have chosen but didn't. The trick ending is clearly meta as Ange meets Erika on the boat and chats with her... not mentioning Ange had learnt nothing from what she saw. The magic ending is the ending in which the message Umineko wanted to carry on is accepted by Ange who continues to carry it on, it's the ending in which we've a resolution to the Battler/Tohya plot, it's the ending in which things are finally explained. It's not surprising that Ryukishi wanted the true ending to be the one in which his work is understood and not the one in which it's dismissed. Now... can the trick ending happen in a parallel universe? If we assume fragments exist, it can be in another fragment... like any forgery written including the ones in which Battler massacred his family. Quote:
And of course viewers can express their views but a view can't become a canon truth. If you don't like the magic ending it's fine... but that was Ange's choice in the canon. Disliking it won't change it's what Ange chose... |
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2016-01-22, 21:02 | Link #35484 | |||
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If a game has a branching story, non-canon ending aren't false. Nobody stops someone to choose an other ending. (heh even Ange had the trick as a first thought but it's an another story) Quote:
I wrote "fanservice" because it's a fan question. Would Ryukishi tell the things all by himself without being asked?? And he wouldn't end it as a "neutral (or bad) ending" for sure. Quote:
For part two: I like how the conversations between two parties are. But there's no real "understanding" if one says "it's canon". lol it takes away the purpose of a book... As I mentioned before some fans felt that the real ending was forced. I'd say it's not bad to stay in conversation even with people like "Rosatricers"or whatever. |
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2016-01-23, 05:26 | Link #35485 | ||
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2016-01-23, 11:39 | Link #35486 |
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@ JJ
Ok I forgot that was in the interview. I think many readers understood the magic ending. I'm okay if a creator wants to speak about his work. But Umineko also has to stand on its own. In the VN the player was given the choice. If the trick ending was chosen nobody would be like . But he manga showed after expressing her first thoughts. For the boat scene: I don't think it implies that she learnt nothing. Look a difference between the 2 endings. In the magic one we see what happens in x years. The other one just shows some minutes on the boat and only fate knows what happens after this. For the ending choice: In my opinion it should have depended on the readers' choice (as they were in Ange's position) like in the original. It wouldn't be better if the trick ending was canon. If sequel would appear so what should Ryukishi choose? I made a example about Ange in my previous post. @ Levani I like the manga version, but dislike they took liberty of making a choice for the reader. You can point on me, but don't expect nobody would criticise changes in an adaption. Having the same opinion as the Word of God is ok, using it as an argument isn't. Welcome to the fandom. |
2016-01-23, 11:46 | Link #35487 | |
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So, what you're saying is that The Word of God is not an argument because you decide to shut your ears and tell the author that what he just said was wrong, I see, makes sense.
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2016-01-24, 12:30 | Link #35489 | |
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Like I said before the author has the right to add/change content if he wanted. Praising and critcising are normal things and equally important for a creator. It seems you see my actions as senseless bashing against Umineko. It's not the case. And I think we are using "word of god" in two different contexts It's not ok to argue badly about critical constructive opinion. |
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2016-01-26, 16:56 | Link #35490 | |||||
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Acting like Erika is something she was actually already doing when she was pinning the blame on Eva without proof because it was more convenient than suspect her own family. In short she hasn't really learnt it, she has just continued on doing it only she got worse. Quote:
Umineko remarks that, after all, there's only one truth... and when we've two either one is wrong (in Bern's game the culprit is Battler's family, not George's family as Erika said) or we're back to square one in the catbox (because two truths/theories existed in Ep 5 basically even the witch was allowed to exist and nothing was considered solved). In short Ryukishi, with the ending basically let us play with the idea that 'the George's family culprit theory' could be right before reminding us that no, there's only one truth and that this truth is that Ange chose the magic ending. Quote:
...and I think that we should remember to differentiate between PrimeAnge and MetaAnge, Rika and Bern. Quote:
Umineko was all about asking us to understand the message the author was giving us and finding the solution he wanted us to find. When some people didn't after the VN he did the same that Beato did when Battler couldn't find the right solution and offered her a wrong solution, denied his solution with red. Canon solutions are red to tell us that if we found other solutions we were wrong. Of course you can reject canon in the same way as Battler could doubt the red. However if you do you aren't anymore playing with Ryukishi. You're taking the gameboard and playing a solo game in which you don't care about finding the answers he asked you to find but are interested in just your own truth. It's a possible choice, of course, but at this point you've chosen to play a different game from the one you were asked to play. It's no more 'find the solution Ryukishi asked you to find' but 'find a solution you like'. It's no more understanding the game but forcing a solution you like on it... which is basically going for the trick ending and accepting Erika's mentality that you can force your own truth on something. It's fine to not like something in Umineko or even Umineko as a whole. I've parts of Umineko I don't like as well. But denying word of God isn't constructive criticism, is playing a different game. It constructs nothing, it improves nothing, it just denies the existence of what one doesn't like. |
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2016-01-27, 02:47 | Link #35491 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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does anyone know why beatrice at the end of game 6 was switching between being kind/ being like the original beatrice. it kind of confused me. things i thought is that maybe battler learned to view beatrice fully from both perspectives? since im guessing maybe his own interpretation effects her, since she is just part of his own mind. sorry if i am going off topic or something just wanted to know this lol.
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2016-01-27, 15:17 | Link #35492 | |
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My theory is just that those behaviours were two sides of the original Beatrice/Sayo. Sayo could also be sweet and affectionate... so that sweet Beatrice is part of her. |
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2016-01-27, 15:38 | Link #35493 |
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oh that actually is interesting, i haven't read the manga to be honest so i was just under the impression it was only in battlers head. your theory also sounds like it might be correct, not sure though. i just thought it really out of place how she was switching.
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2016-01-28, 13:24 | Link #35494 |
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@ jjblue/35496
About the boat scene: What you said is the straight analysis of the scene. It's right. But I would note that Ange woke up from a day dream -> she should have at least some conscience. (I could reflect this on Eva's decision, she revised it) The trick ending is by no means a bad ending/choice, maybe anti-climatic. As I said before this scene didn't show the future, 'open ending'. I disagree your view she didn't learn anything. Even Erika gained a 'bit' love after her time in the abyss. I had the opinion that Ange didn't see the point of Eva's decision not telling what happened in the magic ending and Ange wouldn't think pinning the guilt on Eva for eternity in the trick ending. If we can see it in a more positive light she has a chance of learning the truth of Eva. I'm interested if Ange could have a happy life in the non-conon ending, too. |
2016-01-28, 21:04 | Link #35495 | ||||||
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Because Erika surely doesn't represent Ange's coscience as she praises Ange's actions... unless Ange has a serious lack of morals... Quote:
I wouldn't call Ange becoming a murderer a good ending. Not mentioning she might be starting seeing things is she take her seeing Erika as 'litteral'... and if it's not litteral... she's merely using magic to justify herself. The bad ending lead us to a 'black Ange' or whatever one wants to call her. There's no proof whatsoever she learn something in the bad ending or that she gained some love. Also Ange was already shown in Ep 4 as someone who doesn't trust in people (she refused to drink what Okonogi offered her which, we know, wasn't poisoned or to use the car he offered her...) so it's not like her believing Amakusa might actually plan to harm her is 'something she learnt'. Not really. Even in the VN she's back on serving Bern and destroying the golden land as cruelly as possible to the point that even Dlanor judged her beyond redemption. Quote:
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While from a narrative point of view it might be interesting to have a paranoid, murder prone, cruel Ange living a happy life I'm not sure I'll call this a happy ending. True, what constitute a happy ending is relative but well, I'll side with the group who wouldn't like the bad guy to walk away toward happiness. |
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2016-01-31, 01:31 | Link #35496 |
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Join Date: Dec 2010
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heres something interesting i found. i seen the conversation about how basically everyone was saying shkannon is confirmed for a fact, and that word of god is absolute in umineko. well i found this. http://witchhunters.livejournal.com/5724.html . he is pretty much saying in here beatrice is mocking that, and that the opposite actually is more effective.. i would not be suprised of ryukishi pulled something like this anyways because he seems like the type of author that likes these type of tricks, especially considering higurashi. something to consider.
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2016-01-31, 14:48 | Link #35497 |
The True Culprit
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That's...not what the article is saying at all. It's mocking the idea of people taking "Red Truth" and the like at face value without thinking; it's true, but can't be taken in a vacuum. For example, the reds that count Shannon and Kanon separately even though they're not.
The point being made here is the Red Truth is only valuable if you trust the speaker, and that it's not the "Word of God" in the sense that it shouldn't shut down your thinking. It should be remembered that this article came out before EP4 did, when Shkanon was still a fairly well-kept secret on Ryukishi's part.
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2016-01-31, 16:25 | Link #35498 | |||||
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And I clearly refered to the daydream, not Erika, as her conscience. Why? Ange should have reasons and Erika might be a concept like Beatrice. Why that? Because she knew she would dissapoint her brother. Proof and hints? Look at his face after she told her first thought about Beatrice's quiz. The first thought is mostly the right decision. In my opinion I found it strange to be highly ironic in that scene. Quote:
The trick ending leaves us a open ending. Ange murdered two people, it doesn't mean she became 'black', I'd call her an anti-hero. Quote:
Then she shouldn't have a daydream. Then she would throw everything else (reuniting with her brother and family) away. You go against the story (isn't the same style of thinking of Rosatricers and Jessicatricers? ) Quote:
Beato made the statement "without love etc. ...." in EP6. In EP8 even the villians changed their habits and thinking as well. Quote:
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2016-01-31, 18:04 | Link #35499 | |
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what i got from the article, is that he said you have to trust her. no where did he claim red truth was actually the truth. he pretty much said everything is unverifiable. unless im misinterpreting this. |
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