(L) Mushoku Tensei -Isekai Ittara Honki Dasu- [WN]

[yulinard]

Originally Posted by dragon1412

He is, just he fact that he is concious and capable of systematic thinking in 1 years old already a cheat itself. Not to mentions that all his magic is rooted in knowledge of sciences, Rudy stated it himself that he can use chantless because he knew how the phenomenom works, and that's also the reason why he can't use chantless healing because he do not have knowledge about human physiology. He is pretty much the only human who use chantless in the story until way later into the ending and even then they are still rare as hell. If you say that his previous world knowledge done nothing for him, i don't know what that called.

Yeah but beyond vol 1 it useless. There are people who can use chant less other than MC which make his power is not unique.

Originally Posted by MinusVitamin

It's wish fulfillment, but a very well written one.

Id rather say its a well written but the worst wish fulfillment in the list. Its an ok world building WN however, that's why id rather put MT on world building instead wish fulfillment.

[dragon1412]

Originally Posted by yulinard

Yeah but beyond vol 1 it useless. There are people who can use chant less other than MC which make his power is not unique.



Id rather say its a well written but the worst wish fulfillment in the list. Its an ok world building WN however, that's why id rather put MT on world building instead wish fulfillment.

I actually consider 10 years headstart in learning is pretty much a cheat.


But yeah, I guess all of us could agree that MT is a very well written archetype. This would also explain it decline in sales as LN, though I'd say the current sales is not so bad though

[Hakatri]

Originally Posted by dragon1412

He is, just he fact that he is concious and capable of systematic thinking in 1 years old already a cheat itself. Not to mentions that all his magic is rooted in knowledge of sciences, Rudy stated it himself that he can use chantless because he knew how the phenomenom works, and that's also the reason why he can't use chantless healing because he do not have knowledge about human physiology. He is pretty much the only human who use chantless in the story until way later into the ending and even then they are still rare as hell. If you say that his previous world knowledge done nothing for him, i don't know what that called.

MT to anime is a very far dream case, it already have over 10 vol if i remember correctly, and MT archetype and sales isn't sound like a good prospect for it

I dont get your point, if MT is a clear wish fulfilment case it should increase his sales but it doesnt

And well, every story has an element of wish fulfilment and it only varies in the way those wishes are fulfiled, the most inteligent way is to give the reader what they want in a very unusual way they rearely expected while the common works simply give what the reader want in a very straightforward way

If a story doesnt have wish fulfilment we simply get bored because nothing happens that catches our interest and the only thing we can expect from a story is to make us like something we didnt liked before

We can never expect a story to not to be a wish fulfilment story, we can only expect it to be a wih fulfilment developed in an unusual way with consequences that have actual weight

Second, i never saw the MT reincarnation stuff as that much of a cheat because there are other people who reincarnate and some others who live for very long periods making 35 years not that much live experience and mostly because in most of the important fights a cheat in figthing spirit would have been way more useful but yeah, knowldge is always handy but in that case the idea that technology can be improved is what was more useful than knowledge itself (as said by Nanahoshi people in that world rarely have the idea to change stuff) and as i stated before the MC gets the powers from the conditions already existant in that world and he always needs his friends to cover his back compared to those MCs who are always saving the day

Every story starts with a change of pace/scenario that triggers the beginning of the story, after Infinite Stratos was mentioned we can use that as a clear comparison since it was a popular work at the time (it was, right?)

The MC changes scenario and gets a power already existing in that world in a way never had before, he is never the cause of his own problems (he is not, right?) and he has girls figthing over him all the time, there was another work where the MC is in a magic school and needs to form a harem to copy the girls´powers that was pretty much the same

Those are easily identifiable as pure wish fulfilments (i think power fantasy is a better term) because the MCs are never the cause of their own problems since they dont have real ambitions expecting for the realy "becoming number 1" where those who oppose them can be seen as not enemies since the road to number 1 is a clear competition (but they are still nasty people because that way is easier to make the MC look as good people)

And then Infinite Stratos got good reception because of the estandar wish fulfilment

When the MC ahs real ambitions then the story can become interesting because they will cause consequences but one common theme of complain from the fans is the lack of balls from the MCs and their lack of ambition

Actually the Rudeus pre reincarnation was a MC without balls and without a power trip, he was bullied and in his cowardice he retreated to hole in his house losing his life, his integrity and his childhood friend, if we think about it in a normal story after the MC is bullied he would receive a power/mentor to break free from those problems and get his pretty happy life but pre-Rudeus is a clear example of what should happen to the majority of MCs without balls we see so much but those MCs are kept as standars MCs but they dont fail as such cowards should do and instead they get everything a fan can dream of and that is a true wish fulfilment

Specially now that im reading Xianxia where the MCs are badasses who are guilty of everything they want

My posture about a possible MT anime is this:

MT has not enough mainstream developments (despite having mainstream elements) to have an anime unless the market gets saturated/tired (in the next years i guess) and the producers want an unusual story to try something new, but then the conceptual stories will have a chance first because they look more unusual despite their common development

I am writing a lot,

But then again i really like to analyze stuff

Let me show you guys what MT would look like if it was just a wish fulfilment story:

The MC is a teenager nice guy who dies saving someone

The MC would be a closet pervert without the balls to act towards his pervetedness, that way the story would have ecchi but the MC would not be guilty of that and just a willing victim, lets see the events where the MC was "victim" of the perverted story: He caught Roxy masturbating, Eris smells his clothes, Silphy drugs him to have sex, Roxy rapes him when he is depressed, his dad teases him about getting girls, the maid ofers him her daughter, but he is too nice to accept any of this and is just a victim, poor guy

In the future version his dowfall is caused completely by Hitogami and he was figthing righterously to the end

His friends see him as their hope and in every fight he is the one to save the day

The harems takes more to form and we have many scenes of the girls competing among them trying to win his affection

There would be no Erectile Disfunction arc, instead he would have ED the whole story as Rudeus analyzed

Nanahoshi and Ariel would also fall for him even if is just in a platonic way

There would be a Disgusting Bad Guy as a middle boss at the end of every arc



If you have more ideas about MT becoming a wish fulfilment i would like to hear them

[yulinard]

No. MC lack the ball is not because its another type of genre.

SELF EMPOWERMENT FANTASY

it was self indulgence self insert type of story. Like Infinite Stratos, Asterisk War, Sword Art Online.

Giving MC more than half of a ball turn it into Wish Fulfillment Fantasy.

There is a shift popularity from Self Empowerment to Wish Fulfillment at the moment. just because the demographic is getting older and they want more than self insert protagonist.

[Breimn]

A little guide

[Nirvash0]

I don't believe a MT anime can really work, be for quality or $$$.

12ep > vol 6 and this make for a very standard shonen fantasy adventure. (you know, what made me a fan was the drama about the "father preggoed the maid", you don't really see stuff like that around)
After that you get the academy ED clusterfuck, good luck animating with that.

MT is actually more mature than most of the wn, that's the reason of the vocal fantbase.

I wish for a rewriting scrapping some of his otaku pervert retarted antics, most of that pandering damage the story more than it helps with the fanbase.

[MinusVitamin]

Originally Posted by Nirvash0

I wish for a rewriting scrapping some of his otaku pervert retarted antics, most of that pandering damage the story more than it helps with the fanbase.

...but i like the pervertly-retarded antics. It's fun.
Especially when it's a MC who's open about his urges.

[CNine]

Lt see, MT is started as a WISH FULFILLING story[the author controlling his fate, personalities, etc]. I'm sure that some of the readers has noticed this.

BUT, starting from some point of the stories. Rudeus grown into an independent individual outside the control of the author[though he still have his antic(which made it more interesting)]. there's a reason why author decided 34 years old as the death of pre-Rudeus.

By that point MT can't be called as MT anymore, If I must name it, then [Rudeus Grayrat Chronicle]should fit it.

This is also one of the rare title in Narou in which the MC actually accepted his second death as something that will definitely coming, and not trying to do something to prolong his life[Hell, only a lunatic would actually want an immortality, as immortality can only be seen as another form of hell(immortal HUMAN really DOES exist in REALITY, and they wishes for DEATH more than anything ELSE)], which maybe is one of the reason it become popular compared to others WN in which the MC ended up as a long lived one. It's liked because MT is story of a NORMAL human with nothing but the magic that he honed over his entire life and the knowledge of his previous life[which is actually isn't very much] againts many adversaries.

If Rudeus still under the control of the author, the author might actually made him into somekind of immortal character, BUT NO. maybe the author realized that Rudeus isn't his alter ego anymore by some point and decided to write the story befitting Rudeus at some point. He think like, What will Rudeus does if he's faced with this or that and such. which lead to the epic grand finale, the death of Rudeus[which is clearly not the wish of the author, as Rudeus is something like his other self. But, he can't made Rudeus into an immortal which is contradicting Rudeus personalities]

Here some good news, It's already hinted by the author that MAYBE Rudeus will be back in person in the MT sequel, as for which side......... let's left that to the author golden hand.

[Sebazu]

Originally Posted by CNine

Lt see, MT is started as a WISH FULFILLING story[the author controlling his fate, personalities, etc]. I'm sure that some of the readers has noticed this.

BUT, starting from some point of the stories. Rudeus grown into an independent individual outside the control of the author[though he still have his antic(which made it more interesting)]. there's a reason why author decided 34 years old as the death of pre-Rudeus.

By that point MT can't be called as MT anymore, If I must name it, then [Rudeus Grayrat Chronicle]should fit it.

This is also one of the rare title in Narou in which the MC actually accepted his second death as something that will definitely coming, and not trying to do something to prolong his life[Hell, only a lunatic would actually want an immortality, as immortality can only be seen as another form of hell(immortal HUMAN really DOES exist in REALITY, and they wishes for DEATH more than anything ELSE)], which maybe is one of the reason it become popular compared to others WN in which the MC ended up as a long lived one. It's liked because MT is story of a NORMAL human with nothing but the magic that he honed over his entire life and the knowledge of his previous life[which is actually isn't very much] againts many adversaries.

If Rudeus still under the control of the author, the author might actually made him into somekind of immortal character, BUT NO. maybe the author realized that Rudeus isn't his alter ego anymore by some point and decided to write the story befitting Rudeus at some point. He think like, What will Rudeus does if he's faced with this or that and such. which lead to the epic grand finale, the death of Rudeus[which is clearly not the wish of the author, as Rudeus is something like his other self. But, he can't made Rudeus into an immortal which is contradicting Rudeus personalities]

Here some good news, It's already hinted by the author that MAYBE Rudeus will be back in person in the MT sequel, as for which side......... let's left that to the author golden hand.

Wait, are you implying that Rudeus is supposed to be a self-insert?
Because self insertion and wish fullfillment are not the same thing.

[MinusVitamin]

It's not self-insert if that is what you mean, but it is wish fulfillment. Furthermore the whole system regarding an individual's fate, and it's application to the MC, in this case, is wish fulfillment itself. Those who have strong fate are almost sure to succeed, while those lack of it will be sure to fail. Like CNine said, in the beginning of the story it was all about wish fulfilling, and imo opinion even to the very end it was still about wish fulfilling. However, in the middle of story that was when the wish fulfilling appeared to have stopped- for me that is. A MC who is made in a way he is sure to succeed, or where he can survive from the impossible- at the slim chance of victory at every turn, is a MC whose peril becomes something simply to laugh off at. I don't care how many side characters have to die to imply "any one can die" bullshit, it ain't going to happen to a MC whose only trait is to succeed at the cost of having no personality.

In MT we have something more concrete than some intangible sense of danger. We had a MC who travelled back in time to warn himself of a possible future that could lead him to ruins. Not a holograph- not a letter in a bottle- not mysterious phone call, but the actual person himself. Donned in gloom and doom. We had two MC at one point, and the other one is buried in the ground as grave and creepy reminder to his past self that he was quite literally, one basement door open away from a life of depravation. Not super villian who obtained immense power, but a door at the safety of his own home. This real sense of danger made me forget that this was about wish fulfillment.
This part in MT is on the same level of edgyness as A Feast For Crows.

[kusabireika]

uhm what happen here so much wall of text...... T_T

[yulinard]

^ Short summary MT is a weird wish fulfillment fantasy where normally MC is given power to bend world to his will, he was bent by the world instead.

[CNine]

Originally Posted by yulinard

^ Short summary MT is a weird wish fulfillment fantasy where normally MC is given power to bend world to his will, he was bent by the world instead.

the most appropriate line is [He's one of the character that freed from the control of his own creator(author) and become independent being].
Many MC usually is created as the alter ego of the author, take Kirito from SAO as an example.
but, Very few of that character managed to freed themself from the grasp of their own creator[author] and stand as a being who created their own stories[Hajime from Arifureta, Rio from Seirei Gensouki is one of the example of the failed one, as for the successful one, let's take Harold from My Death Flag Showing no sign of End, Rudeus from MT, and Eragon from Inheritance cycle ].

[Sebazu]

Originally Posted by CNine

the most appropriate line is [He's one of the character that freed from the control of his own creator(author) and become independent being].
Many MC usually is created as the alter ego of the author, take Kirito from SAO as an example.
but, Very few of that character managed to freed themself from the grasp of their own creator[author] and stand as a being who created their own stories[Hajime from Arifureta, Rio from Seirei Gensouki is one of the example of the failed one, as for the successful one, let's take Harold from My Death Flag Showing no sign of End, Rudeus from MT, and Eragon from Inheritance cycle ].

So basically you are assuming that pretty much every author just writes self inserts?

Just because someone writes a chracter doesn't mean they base them on themselves, you're thinking fanfic.

[yulinard]

Originally Posted by CNine

the most appropriate line is [He's one of the character that freed from the control of his own creator(author) and become independent being].
Many MC usually is created as the alter ego of the author, take Kirito from SAO as an example.
but, Very few of that character managed to freed themself from the grasp of their own creator[author] and stand as a being who created their own stories[Hajime from Arifureta, Rio from Seirei Gensouki is one of the example of the failed one, as for the successful one, let's take Harold from My Death Flag Showing no sign of End, Rudeus from MT, and Eragon from Inheritance cycle ].

Basically it was the perfection of a world building. The world author create actually alive on its own. Each character in the story have their own traits personality and goals. So, even if you leave them alone they will do their stuff logically by them self.

Originally Posted by Sebazu

So basically you are assuming that pretty much every author just writes self inserts?

Just because someone writes a chracter doesn't mean they base them on themselves, you're thinking fanfic.

Usually it just the author lack of world building skill. So instead building a world and put his character inside, he create his character first then put other stuff surround him/her. It was attractive to younger audience but not for older audience who hate one dimensional characters.

Originally Posted by CNine

Here some good news, It's already hinted by the author that MAYBE Rudeus will be back in person in the MT sequel, as for which side......... let's left that to the author golden hand.

one of the seven heroes have unique habit that can be found common in Japanese working class. My speculation he was reincarnated once as villager A but does not retain his memory when he born. But he inherit his previous live habit like eating raw egg and other stuff. He eventually enrolled to magic academy, meet with one of his previous daughter most likely Lara, fall in love get married, and regain his memories, and then drafted once again in Orsted's army.

[Breimn]

Originally Posted by CNine

Here some good news, It's already hinted by the author that MAYBE Rudeus will be back in person in the MT sequel, as for which side......... let's left that to the author golden hand.

Where was it hinted?

[CNine]

Originally Posted by Breimn

Where was it hinted?

Millis holiday-Roxy chapter, ther's also laplace convergence

[Hakatri]

Originally Posted by Nirvash0

I don't believe a MT anime can really work, be for quality or $$$.

12ep > vol 6 and this make for a very standard shonen fantasy adventure. (you know, what made me a fan was the drama about the "father preggoed the maid", you don't really see stuff like that around)
After that you get the academy ED clusterfuck, good luck animating with that.

MT is actually more mature than most of the wn, that's the reason of the vocal fantbase.

I wish for a rewriting scrapping some of his otaku pervert retarted antics, most of that pandering damage the story more than it helps with the fanbase.

We already discussed that MT would only work as three 24 chapters seasons, making it extremely risky to produce

Also Rudeus without pervertedness could sound fine to tone him down as a "respectable" MC but one of the strong points of the story is how the MC is guilty of his own failures, making him more moraly right will take him closer to a normal MC and destroy a lot of his personality

We still got some of the emotional development like Paul, who is prety much a different person every time Rudeus re encounters him due to his development, also the gloomy ED heartbroken Rudeus (how many times do you see a heartbroken MC going on for years?) or the "I lost my parents twice and i finally noticed how much i have lost" heavily depressed rudeus or the extremely regretful future Rudeus, the "my sister became a hikikomory and i still dont know how to deal with that", etc

Do you guys really think Rudeus is a self insert? the original rudeus was a very shitty person by his own faults and i can´t see anyone self inserting into that and authors who do self inserts at most make the regrettable MCs victims of the Evil Oppressive Forces of Wrong to justify their own self inserted failures, if i had to analyze the creation of the MC i would say the author simply decided to start with an MC as regrettable as legaly possible and construct from there, more like an exercise about how to take a person and make him crawl out of his own shittyness step by step

- He recognized his mistakes
- He decided to change
- He got responsabilities by his own will (earning Silphy´s tuition)
- He got responsabilities without asking fo them (metastasis event)
- He faced many of his old and current traits in himself and other people: Zanoba´s isolated behavior, Norn´s hikikomory phase, Elinalize´s pervertedness, Eris lack of comunication, Sillphy´s overdependence, Paul´s weakness and effort (and he also caused some of his problems), prince Pax who was like his old self with power, etc
- He recognized how much he lost by his own mistakes
- He faced the possibility of losing everything again
- He alone can accomplish power, respect and admiration but he needs the help of his family and friends to achieve a solid happiness or to defeat the truly strong foes
- He never really got over being a loser and instead realized that nobody really cared about his insecurities and he just needed to get along

As i see it that was not intentional and the autor simply keept adding stuff that would make the MC react due to his previous shittyness, more like "Rudeus is too comfy but he already overgrew this kind of troubles so its pointless to repeat them without a variation in them, what can make him react now?" because the turning points happened after rudeus stated how nice were the things going

Also the auhor stated that MT was the story of Rudeus and i feel like he stopped the story because his development was already complete and he just realized it over the march and because of that the ending feelt rushed, more like "what can make him react now?... i guess thats it"

Because of this Rudeus MUST be a shitty person at the beggining, is a core element of the story but since he is at his shittiest when he is a kid it tones him down without the need of any edition

[yulinard]

You should not be bothered by a random shit poster on /a/ of the famous 4chan.

Also if a story dragged too long it will turn into a train wreck. Turn into self indulgence or having too many characters to the point the story became a complete mess. Any sensible author will end his story before that happen.

[MinusVitamin]

quick question how many people here read MT more than twice?