Macross Delta - Anime General Discussion Thread

[LoweGear]

It finally hit me what was nagging me about Freyja looking at some of her images, especially that holo transformation pic in the ep 4 preview:

She reminds me of a hamster, given her teeth peeking out her mouth at times.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

She reminds me of a hamster, given her teeth peeking out her mouth at times.

Oh BURN!

- Tak

[lars18th]

Originally Posted by Syan48306

Is it just me but the first episode super disappointing. Coming from a very big SDF, Plus and Zero fan, delta just seems way over the top. Even compared to 7 or frontier, it doesn't even feel like macross as much as a magical girl show. Now clearly, we've only seen the first episode, but theres not as much of a focus on the mecha or the plot.


At least they still had zentraadi in it.

It's not just you. As a Macross fan all the way from the original (and the masterpiece that is DYRL) it seems that the creative group got really sloppy trying to come up with a new way of adding song and mech together and just went flat out for a simple magical girl formula where the Valkyries are pretty much like their pets.

The original Macross was probably one of the most innovative and creative anime I have ever watched. Macross Plus brought in an amazing vision into AI and holographic presentations that pretty much already became a reality today. Macross Zero worked into connecting and explaining several aspects of the different shows and was used as heavy reference all the way into Frontier which was also an amazing series.

Now we have a magical girl show that will hopefully attract boys and girls, sell model robots and CD's to a wider audience but at a terrible cost to the franchise.

I have nothing against magical girls but I would be very upset if someone tacked in mech into a Sailor Moon episode to increase potential profits.

There is a difference between moving ahead with the times to stay relevant and selling out on core values and bending over to make a profit.
I don't think Macross Delta is trying to stay relevant.

[Tenzen12]

Nah, Walkure was just next logical step after previous works (It's also funny you completely ommited Marcross 7 where Kawamori went by no means less wild than here).

Macross wasn't just innovative, it went against convention of genre. I don't know how good will delta be, but there is no problem with settings at least.

[lars18th]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Nah, Walkure was just next logical step after previous works (It's also funny you completely ommited Marcross 7 where Kawamori went by no means less wild than here).

Macross wasn't just innovative, it went against convention of genre. I don't know how good will delta be, but there is no problem with settings at least.

Macross 7 was bad. Why should I mention it among some of my favorite series?
I also omitted Macross 2 which was not nearly as bad but still forgettable.
I am in shock you mentioned going against convention of genre when we are discussing a show that morphed DIRECTLY into a conventional genre, which is why I say they are bending over.
Up until now, Macross Delta is not doing anything innovative. As you said it yourself, they are taking the next logical step into something quite well predicted, which, in my book leads to mediocrity.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Nah, Walkure was just next logical step after previous works (It's also funny you completely ommited Marcross 7 where Kawamori went by no means less wild than here.

I dunno about next logical step. The concept of multi-women idols have been used twice in the Macross-verse. The only difference here is having combat idols, who are engaged directly in the front lines.

I also don't quite agree with Lars18th, because I've wanted to see a magical (armor) girl genre fighting alongside military hardware, as opposed to relegating the latter into secondary status. Delta has the combination I want, that is all.

- Tak

[lars18th]

Originally Posted by Tak

I dunno about next logical step. The concept of multi-women idols have been used twice in the Macross-verse. The only difference here is having combat idols, who are engaged directly in the front lines.

I also don't quite agree with Lars18th, because I've wanted to see a magical (armor) girl genre fighting alongside military hardware, as opposed to relegating the latter into secondary status. Delta has the combination I want, that is all.

- Tak

I respect you enjoying the show as it's not all around bad but it's just disappointing to see this as a follow up to Macross Frontier. Even the Macross captain which is usually a pretty charismatic character in every show turned out to be some kind of silly comic relief figure on the 2 five seconds scenes he had. The fact that we can all unequivocally categorize Macross Delta as a magical girl show speaks to the essence of my disappointment, especially after this preview commercial for EP1 which was pretty badass:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WfYiDVFGcd0

Notice how they omit every magical girl fighting scene and focus everything on the Valkyrie fight scenes. It almost leads one to believe those pilots received a proper introduction, which they did not. Those 5 seconds is all they got out of one entire episode 1.
Please refer below to what ACTUALLY happens on EP1 in all of it's magical girl glory (Notice how the Valkyrie is literally ridden like a mighty steed while the magical girl triumphs over evil):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZhGOJCAGc

As misleading as the PV commercial was, now at EP3 I have come to terms with the show trying to please a different audience and became numb to stuff like Valkyrie choreography dancing and magical girl transformation scenes...

Oh well, at lease there is still Yamato 2199 to look forward to.

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by lars18th

The fact that we can all unequivocally categorize Macross Delta as a magical girl

As one of the first people who made the jest about "Mahou Shoujo Walkure", and as one who likes the premise.... no, we can't in fact unequivocally categorize it as a magical girl show. Hell, at this point 3 episodes in they've shown more mecha dogfighting than Walkure's stunts in terms of screentime, which is well within the bounds set by Macross.

Also, all of the things done in Macross Delta are just extensions of stuff already done in previous series, even from all the way back to Do You Remember Love. Here's a good article showing such precedents:

In Defense of Macross Δ: Magical Girls

Originally Posted by lars18th

Please refer below to what ACTUALLY happens on EP1 in all of it's magical girl glory (Notice how the Valkyrie is literally ridden like a mighty steed while the magical girl triumphs over evil):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLZhGOJCAGc

Now this is just exaggeration to the extreme, since as far as the actual episode shows, the Walkure are not the ones doing all the shooting and slicing, but the Valkyries themselves. Hell, even when Mikumo rides Arado's Valkyrie, all she does is sing on top of it while it's Arado who goes in and slices that Zentradi apart. And as a later example, Kaname is saved by Messer later.

Also, it's not like Delta Squadron themselves don't have a good showing in Episode 1, hell their aerial dogfight against the Aerial Knights is one of the highlights of the episode. And yet for some reason, the very people who rail on Walkure taking the spotlight forget that as though that particular dogfight never happened.

[Triple_R]

As a big magical girl fan, I definitely wouldn't consider Macross Delta a mahou shoujo show. At least not yet.

First of all, Walkure aren't even pure mahou shoujo - Visually and stylistically, they're half-idol/half-magical girl.

Also, while Walkure does have a role of some importance in this show, they so far seem slightly less important than Delta Squadron does.

Three of the Walkure girls have received very little attention so far, and even Mikumo tends to stand out through sheer force of personality. With Delta Squadron, there's already lots of interesting dynamics going on involving Hayate, Mirage, Messer, and Arad.

Other than Freyja, the stars of the show are all Delta Squadron pilots so far. And even Freyja's biggest moment thus far was in supporting Hayate in achieving his test pass.


I understand that some veteran Macross viewers would prefer something a bit more Top Gun/original Macross and a bit less Symphogear, but this is still a far cry from Symphogear. This has just barely enough magical girl elements to appeal a little to me on that level. I wouldn't recommend this show to a magical girl fan unless s/he also liked fighter jet dogfights and/or mecha in general.

The core of Macross has likely remained the same. It's just added the lightest touch of the superficial trappings of magical girl. Unless you simply hate magical girl anime, it shouldn't be that hard to roll with.

[Tak]

And this is also not the first time when Macross singers do their gig out in the open, in the front-lines on the battlefield, mind you...

Spoiler for Because...:

And she done it without techno magic!

- Tak

[lars18th]

Originally Posted by LoweGear

As one of the first people who made the jest about "Mahou Shoujo Walkure", and as one who likes the premise.... no, we can't in fact unequivocally categorize it as a magical girl show. Hell, at this point 3 episodes in they've shown more mecha dogfighting than Walkure's stunts in terms of screentime, which is well within the bounds set by Macross.

Also, all of the things done in Macross Delta are just extensions of stuff already done in previous series, even from all the way back to Do You Remember Love. Here's a good article showing such precedents:

In Defense of Macross Δ: Magical Girls



Now this is just exaggeration to the extreme, since as far as the actual episode shows, the Walkure are not the ones doing all the shooting and slicing, but the Valkyries themselves. Hell, even when Mikumo rides Arado's Valkyrie, all she does is sing on top of it while it's Arado who goes in and slices that Zentradi apart. And as a later example, Kaname is saved by Messer later.

Also, it's not like Delta Squadron themselves don't have a good showing in Episode 1, hell their aerial dogfight against the Aerial Knights is one of the highlights of the episode. And yet for some reason, the very people who rail on Walkure taking the spotlight forget that as though that particular dogfight never happened.

Except the fact the Delta Squadron pilots are never introduced, therefore have zero development during the 2 seconds you get to see their faces in EP1 while they are fighting the generic cute guys that dress up as knights. Yeah... I can't wait to have some more of that screen time...
Don't get me wrong, it feels like they do want to develop some of the characters characters sometimes but instead of making a believable rebel hero they come out with lines like these:

Immelman, during his interview Inside Macross Elysion: "I hate the army... I hate taking orders too... So I will play by my own rules"
Captain: "Feel free to"

Yeah, that conversation is not cringe worthy in a military hierarchy setting. Totally believable... I can't wait to get more of that level of dialogue.

Originally Posted by Tak

And this is also not the first time when Macross singers do their gig out in the open, in the front-lines on the battlefield, mind you...

Spoiler for Because...:

And she done it without techno magic!

- Tak

Sheryl Nome is an amazing, well developed strong character and she never had to cast hologram barrier spells or ride Valkyries in combat to be awesome and help win a war.
She did not even have a magical girl transformation speech.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by lars18th

Sheryl Nome is an amazing, well developed strong character and she never had to cast hologram barrier spells or ride Valkyries in combat to be awesome and help win a war.

Thats not the point. The point is someone also complained that singing in the middle of combat out in the open is unreal. Well, this is fiction, and its not supposed to be real. But at least Walkure has techno magic. Sheryl Nome? She done it without.

Originally Posted by lars18th

Immelman, during his interview Inside Macross Elysion: "I hate the army... I hate taking orders too... So I will play by my own rules"
Captain: "Feel free to"

Yeah, that conversation is not cringe worthy in a military hierarchy setting. Totally believable... I can't wait to get more of that level of dialogue.

But thats been a stable for most Macross pilots up-to-date with the sole exception to Shin Kudo. Especially those involved in small elite squadrons?

I mean, should we start with Roy Fokker?

- Tak

[LoweGear]

Originally Posted by lars18th

Except the fact the Delta Squadron pilots are never introduced, therefore have zero development during the 2 seconds you get to see their faces in EP1 while they are fighting the generic cute guys that dress up as knights. Yeah... I can't wait to have some more of that screen time...

Proper introduction does not equal character development. All of the Walkure and Delta Squadron got their initial introductions simply by popping up in the scene and someone telling what their name is, only properly framed as a general situations check.

While Walkure does have a flashier entrance into action, they have all been introduced beforehand in a casual manner. Also, in terms of character intro Mirage trumps Mikumo in terms of a proper introduction in episode 1, since she introduces herself fully by name and we do get a substantial amount of time on her.

And Delta Squadron does in fact get lots of face time enough to get a basic handle of their personalities in episode 1:

- Chuck is shown to be happy-go-lucky, and a friendly flirt.
- Arado is the not-so-strict Captain,
- Messer is the standard cool and stoic type who's also the team's ace pilot, and
- Mirage we get loads of time on to see that she's someone who takes her duties and responsibilities seriously.

It's not like Walkure is any better in that department despite all of their screentime. As of episode 1, all we know of them is that:

- Mikumo has the most screentime, but all we know is that she's an ace-type character who goes out without fear.
- Kaname is the leader, though it's not that apparent in episode 1.
- Makina is shown as a mecha nut.
- Reina is soft-spoken and apparently likes her jellyfish raw.

Despite Walkure's greater face exposure, their level of character introduction in comparison to Delta Squadron is more or less the same.

Don't get me wrong, it feels like they do want to develop some of the characters characters sometimes but instead of making a believable rebel hero they come out with lines like these:

Immelman, during his interview Inside Macross Elysion: "I hate the army... I hate taking orders too... So I will play by my own rules"
Captain: "Feel free to"

Yeah, that conversation is not cringe worthy in a military hierarchy setting. Totally believable... I can't wait to get more of that level of dialogue.

... I don't get how this is supposed to relate to Walkure in general. Also, it's quite clear at this juncture that Delta Squadron and Chaos in general is more a paramilitary force rather than a proper military like NUNS.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

All this debate……

Just treat Delta as a silly Macross series and not srsbsns like Plus & Zero and you’ll enjoy it. Also, I think the problems people have with Delta’s “mahou shoujo”-elements is more on the presentation and artistic choice than the actual logic. I mean, those transformation and signature pose of each Walkure-girl is indeed comes straight from magical girl shows, nobody can deny that, while you can also draw logic from it as technological progress within universe. So, it’s more of a sensibility case. It made sense within its universe but it’s aesthetically goes against what many people expect. Dancing girls & Valkyries in the middle of battlefield to mesmerize opponents is still too much for me though, but I can live with it and enjoy it if I apply my first sentence in the paragraph.

Oh, and Macross 7 is not bad imo. At least Kawamori and Japanese audience & rock fans agree with me .

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The core of Macross has likely remained the same. It's just added the lightest touch of the superficial trappings of magical girl. Unless you simply hate magical girl anime, it shouldn't be that hard to roll with.

Some of Macross fans actually do dislike or even hate magical-girl anime (with a passion), hence the notable negative reactions toward Delta. Since I’m a fan of Magic Knight Rayearth & Cardcaptor Sakura (with good amount of adoration toward Madoka, Kill la Kill & Mai-Hime), I have a pretty good tolerance-level toward “mahou shoujo-ness” in an anime. But I can imagine those who don’t have the same tolerance being pissed about it, and it’s easy to understand why.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I wouldn't recommend this show to a magical girl fan unless s/he also liked fighter jet dogfights and/or mecha in general.

I'd argue that Nanoha-fans might dig Delta if you recommend it to them (if they don't mind the idol part) .

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I'd argue that Nanoha-fans might dig Delta if you recommend it to them (if they don't mind the idol part) .

Thats the thing... I do dig Nanoha. I also dig Mai Otome.

And I wanted to see them fight alongside military machines.

Well, here it is.

- Tak

[charles883]

lars18th. AS LONG TIME fan of Macross fan(20 years) I completely DIARGREE WITH YOU!!!.Firstly Its ONLY 3 minute scenes of ENTIRE 3 episode of Delta. And I love this scene as its totally change convention of Group Idol and takes Idea of AKB0048 idea and turn up to eleven instead most of the slice of life idol anime

The reason M7 is failed NOT Because of its Idea but Due to ITs to much of boring Filter which Macross 7 should be 25 episode instead of 50 episode. I mean only thing the Macross 7 hater and lover like in series are Basara Nekki. Don't tell me you hate Basara.

Also in delta , I consider dogfight scene are superior in Delta compared to Frontier, I mean there already 3 dogfight scene in Delta in span of 3 episode while there only 5 dogfight scene in entire Frontier series and movie combined and its not up to Plus level and there even actual VF-1 dogfighting where Frontier there is none VF-1 scene at all(statue does not count)

Also YOUR complain about no badass captain scene completely invalid as In Frontier Captain shows his badass moment IN EP 8 of Frontier while Delta reach up to ep 3 so FAR which still TOO early To says and Judge.

Also Its much more interesting to see why Wind Kingdom want to wage war against NUNS despite being former member of NUNS an despite they ALREADY won independence from NUNS. I mean based on Freyja, her people seems okay with other race. I mean Macross series known for anti villain cast such as Zentradi wh don't understand culture, Vajra due to miscommunication, Protodevlin for their trying to solve their Spiritia problem and do not want to destroy life in universe. I like to see what's behind Wing Kingdom motivation.

Also Walkure does not Use tecno magic as their same type as Ranka and Basara and later Sheryl to cure a effect of the virus and need to be close to them as the cause of virus are King of wing kingdom himself which have same ability as Walkure and need to sing up close to cancel effect.

Also I think VF-31 and Sv262 are most beautiful and creative VF. Don't tell me you don't like those VF.

I could not stand those Self Proclaim Macross fan as they already jump the gun of judging and Rating Delta being worse of the series due to their questionable distaste of so called Magical Gils scene which NOT Magical at all and IN WHICH ONLY 3 minutes of the scenes of entire SERIES AND COMPLETELY DISREGARD OF POSITIVE PART DELTA DUE TO THEY COMPLETELY CONSUME BY THEIR RANTING LED THEY BLINDED BY 1 SCENES. Kawamori alrady told us there will be BIG TWIST in mid series

I mean Kawamori already explain Premise of Delta being Combat Group Idol and What do you excpect from Delta?

Also I think Walkure are more Badass Than Sheryl and Ranka as She do not go frontline of battle like Basara and Sing behind frontlines and hiding. That reason I love AKB0048 and Symhogear due to their sheer courages and wiling to risk their life to save people which I consider more badass.

[Trung-t-rung]

Welp, it's always kind of weird seeing someone complaints about Delta not being muh gritty, military scifi show while most of their arguments are not even right in any means.

Most of the technology showed up in three episodes, including holographic clothes, jet-booster dresses things that Reina used had already showed up in previous installment. And Delta happens 8 years after Frontier, we can already assume that the technology level has already advanced quite a bit.

And for all the arguments about "Idols have no places on the battlefield REEEEEE", even in ep 1, the only one so far with Walkure on the field, we don't see them actively try to fight the Destroid or the Knights and mostly using their drones, holograms and songs to calm down the Vars infected or protect civilians and themselves, which more reminded me of a special response team against disaster rather than active military operation so far.

Until someone tops Basara with his piloting using a guitar or Walkure started turning their songs into beam lasers or missiles, I don't see any problems so far concerning Delta. Even if it is, as long as it entertained me then I don't see anything wrong with that either.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Just treat Delta as a silly Macross series and not srsbsns like Plus & Zero and you’ll enjoy it.

This.
I personally thought episode one was a nightmare, but on the other hand I'm glad they went the full mahou shoujo idol straight away. At least they showed what this show is about. From then onward is up to me if I keep watching it knowing it. So, I'll be on the fence for a while.

Putting aside the who-cares-about-the-rules approach, if I have to make a note about the presentation of the two sides, magical and peons, is that Walkure are all good and extra cool while Delta Squadron are sort of the unlikeable. But things will change I suppose.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by Arya

Delta Squadron are sort of the unlikeable

Unlikeable? What?

Messer has now focused most of the "unlikeability." Episode 3 both softened up Mirage and provided avenues for further understanding her. Everyone else in Delta has had a comedic scene to lighten them up with, even Mölders, who's been a bit of a cipher so far but functions as a Good Cop to Messer's I HAVE A GIANT STICK UP MY ASS attitude.

Images

This is the picture of a guy with a stick up his ass.

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

The series is obliged to show us some sort of human side to Messer, otherwise he makes Guld Goa Bowman look like Mister Personality.

[lars18th]

Originally Posted by Arya

This.
I personally thought episode one was a nightmare, but on the other hand I'm glad they went the full mahou shoujo idol straight away. At least they showed what this show is about. From then onward is up to me if I keep watching it knowing it. So, I'll be on the fence for a while.

Putting aside the who-cares-about-the-rules approach, if I have to make a note about the presentation of the two sides, magical and peons, is that Walkure are all good and extra cool while Delta Squadron are sort of the unlikeable. But things will change I suppose.

I have to agree with you on this one. I am also sitting on the fence. Might watch the next episode or two but I already expect the worst and I am ready to move on.
The fact that EVERY character is turning out to be a predictable clone of previous iterations is not helping either. Well except for Walkure, who are clones of actual magical girl show characters. I really wish we didn't have to be dealing with highly predictable tsundere Mirage and Ranka Freija Lee so clear cut cloned characters, so early on.
A member above replied that he thinks the YF-31 is the most beautiful Valkyrie ever made. I agree that it is a nice design but it's really a recycled YF-30 from the PS3 Macross game which I own and played 3 years ago... so even the Valkyries are not doing much for me either. The only actual new designs I see in this show are the enemy ships which I find quite uninspiring up until now.

On the subject of enemies... metrosexual looking males with long hair dressed up in royal attire that meet up at evil castle cutscenes between episodes... Nope I am not describing Sailor Moon enemies. These are now Macross enemies, like this guy:



He got me excited at this half a second scene, but then he failed miserably like the average Sailor Moon enemy which reminds me if they keep copying every magical girl aspect, maybe he will fall in love with the introvert Walkure-Mercury or Walkure-big-boobs at some point or another. That would blow my mind... totally not expecting cute evil guys to have a relationship with one of the Sailor scouts.