(CR) Joker Game

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by BPD Renegade

Yes, from my understanding, Fukumoto (the spy's "name") had been entrenched in Shanghai for years, establishing the character of a sleazy reporter who, three years prior to this episode, had been caught being too leftist and subsequently reformed -- or claimed to anyway. During this time, he was probably playing more of a sleeper role, observing but not acting, and not actively participating in any particular mission until he was given the corruption case sometime prior to this episode. Once the murders occurred, he used another fake identity, Kusanagi, and had his reporter counterpart implicate Kusanagi. Then, taking up Kusanagi's identity, he led Honma to the club.

Personally, I like this. It shows how long some of these spies are at their jobs and the different personas they create and use at will. I'm assuming that the photo of "Kusanagi" could have equally been used for a different purpose had the need arisen.

People have complained about this show "telling" and not showing, but I would have to say it's the exact opposite in the spies' respect. The "telling" part is just the surface layer. Kusanagi's actions in this episode are far from handed to us. We have to infer that he placed the coin in Honma's pocket when he brushed against him to grab his attention, as well as most of his other involvement in this case. I like how subtle it is, and how we have to stretch our thinking a little bit to get a better picture of what is going on.

Also, as an aside, I guess we can put the racism talks from earlier in the thread to rest now. Looks like it's not just the Western characters that get caricatured, it's the antagonists. I winced a bit when Oikawa snapped. For all that this series does right, there are also a bit of cringe-worthy moments.

Oh man, imagine a guy with wild, bright blue hair going undercover. Then people would be complaining about how unbelievable he would be as a spy. It's like Kuroko being the phantom sixth man all over again.

I agree, I liked the way they handled Fukumoto's role in this episode. And although I can understand the criticisms of to much telling and not enough showing, considering they're pretty much operating on one episode per spy so far I'm willing to over look it. There are other things that I could nitpick, like you mentioned I also could have done without Oikawa's over the top confession. But with that said I mostly enjoyed the episode, and I was not expecting that ending, or at least that confession from Yoshino.

[magnumcyclonex]

Wow! The reporter was one of the 8 spies?! I was thinking all this time, who is the real spy? That's pretty impressive, creating a false persona and recalling it when necessary.

One thing I'm not too familiar with is how much Western influence was there in pre WWII Shanghai. We see a lot of Westerners on the streets, and in the dance club. I know Great Britain had established several trading ports with the Chinese back then so I'm guessing that's the likely reason.

Also, after the bomb scene, there were men in turbans standing around. Who were they supposed to portray?

[BPD Renegade]

Originally Posted by magnumcyclonex

Wow! The reporter was one of the 8 spies?! I was thinking all this time, who is the real spy? That's pretty impressive, creating a false persona and recalling it when necessary.

One thing I'm not too familiar with is how much Western influence was there in pre WWII Shanghai. We see a lot of Westerners on the streets, and in the dance club. I know Great Britain had established several trading ports with the Chinese back then so I'm guessing that's the likely reason.

Also, after the bomb scene, there were men in turbans standing around. Who were they supposed to portray?

From the Mandarin period dramas I've watched in this setting, the western influence, including the club, hair styles, dancing, and music, was pretty accurate. I can't say anything as to the realism of the homosexual pedophilia though as nothing I've watched has touched on it, but I'm inclined to believe that it probably did occur as well.

The guys in turbans were the Sikh branch of the Shanghai MP.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by magnumcyclonex

One thing I'm not too familiar with is how much Western influence was there in pre WWII Shanghai. We see a lot of Westerners on the streets, and in the dance club. I know Great Britain had established several trading ports with the Chinese back then so I'm guessing that's the likely reason.

Shanghai back then was basically split in two parts. One part was the Chinese city, the other part the foreign concessions. You had the International Settlement - it comprised of (parts) of the districts of Huangpu, Jing'an, Hongkou and Yangpu and Shanghai municipality today - administered by the British, Americans and Japanese (who had their headquarter in Hongkou) and you had the French Concession (who didn't participate in the International Settlement) in what today is (parts of) the Huangpu, Xuhui districts and Shanghai municipality. Famous locations in Shanghai like the Bund or Nanjing Road were located in the International Settlement.

For all intents and purposes these areas were not part of China but extraterritorial, meaning institutions like police, courts were heavily controlled by internationals and not part of Chinese institutions. Another important aspect to note is that during those times citizens of a few foreign nations (like Japan, the United States, Britain or France) enjoyed extraterritoriality in all of China. Meaning they couldn't be tried by Chinese law.

As such the influence of Western culture in those areas was pretty strong, in both architecture (just look at the Bund today) and entertainment. There is a reason why some called Shanghai the "Paris of the East" back in the day.

Also, after the bomb scene, there were men in turbans standing around. Who were they supposed to portray?

British personnel from India, they used forces from the British Indian Army for security duties in Shanghai.

[cupumanager]

I love how the D Agency agents subtly using a member of the Kenpeitai to root out unwanted Kenpeitai officers without him even noticing, using an elaborately-made false identity. That kind of subterfuge is the kind of action I want to see from more fictional secret agents. But to what end? Well, that's shouldn't be clear, they're a secret agency after all.

However, I don't like how in the end the characters just burst overdramatically - do I expect too much from this show, or is this forced by the restriction of the episodic format? Perhaps this arc isn't very important in the whole picture, only serves to tell one of the intrigues and machinations of D Agency agents?

[Yu Ominae]

Watched the 3rd episode. The realization of a double agent is quite precise in terms how they're turned by the military administration.

[Harry Dresden]

The latest episode...Nope, can't do this.

Don't get me wrong, the visuals are top-notch, the soundtrack is great, the setting is great. But the writing? The characters? That "reveal" was Erased level of badly handled drama/narrative. It really falls flat on its face in terms of execution. I know that not every show can be as good as Rakugo in that department, but this was disappointing.

The writing leaves a lot to be desired(even if we ignore how utterly surreal at trying to portray Japan as "neutral" the show is, going as far as having a superspy be shocked that Japan would ally with Germany, etc), the characters lack any sort of flair or characterization and the way the "twists" are executed feels poorly thought out and unfinished(the handling of france last episode, the couple running away last episode, the Erased level "reveal" this episode, the dissonance between hearing american speak english in first episode yet having everybody in france talk japanese, etc). It just falls apart for me as a narrative.

And the episodic nature of the show is not doing anything for me. Now, I am not against episodic(Gits SAC was one of my all time favorite shows), but with Joker Game there's no real reason to care about anything that is happening. The setting is great, the set up for the characters and stories was not. Despite its pretty visuals and cinematography, the show just lacks...narrative coherence? quality of execution? soul?

Considering the next episode is storyboarded by the dude who did such an "amazing" job with GITS:Arise, I don't think I can continue this show. Sadly this is it for me as far as Joker Game is concerned.

[Guardian Enzo]

I knew as I saw "Shanghai" pop up that this was going to be an uncomfortable episode from the Japanese perspective. I think the more ruthlessly Joker Game confronts what's uncomfortable, the more effective it's going to be as a series.

[Kanon]

That was my favorite episode so far. I loved how they had the spy act almost entirely in the background. Even when he was on screen, it wasn't made obvious at all it was him. I didn't realize he was also the reporter until the ending.

[Botan_TM]

I's disappointed by the ending of this episode. That reveal was so bad - bad guys shouting crazily how bad he is with evil laugh and ridicule facial expressions, with his other subordinate within a room, because why not have another witness? It just like in some shounen. And what is more funny, in a whole city both guys happened to be paedophiles liking the same boy, but evil guy had no idea his subordinate have affair with him too. This kind of coincidence simply can't get by my suspension of disbelieve.

That's a shame, because except this over dramatized rampage, episode was very nice.

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by Botan_TM

I's disappointed by the ending of this episode. That reveal was so bad - bad guys shouting crazily how bad he is with evil laugh and ridicule facial expressions, with his other subordinate within a room, because why not have another witness? It just like in some shounen. And what is more funny, in a whole city both guys happened to be paedophiles liking the same boy, but evil guy had no idea his subordinate have affair with him too. This kind of coincidence simply can't get by my suspension of disbelieve.

That's a shame, because except this over dramatized rampage, episode was very nice.

That's literally my problem with the show so far. Great setting, great production values and cinematography. But once it comes to narrative every episode has dozens of things that makes it fall apart.

Except that unlike for you, for me that kind of destroys the whole show. It would be somewhat okay for any other type of show, but for something with such a premise, the flaws in execution and the narrative holes just make it so extremely jarring, too jarring to watch.

Its sad, really. Because if writing was anywhere good this could probably have been among my anime of the year.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Botan_TM

I's disappointed by the ending of this episode. That reveal was so bad - bad guys shouting crazily how bad he is with evil laugh and ridicule facial expressions, with his other subordinate within a room, because why not have another witness? It just like in some shounen. And what is more funny, in a whole city both guys happened to be paedophiles liking the same boy, but evil guy had no idea his subordinate have affair with him too. This kind of coincidence simply can't get by my suspension of disbelieve.

That's a shame, because except this over dramatized rampage, episode was very nice.

I think you misread the situation a bit. The private was the captain's accomplice. A companion in corruption (though he probably only got the crumbs, of course), corruption which included patronizing a clandestine casino staffed by transvestite boy prostitutes. Which is why the captain felt free to talk in front of him. He already knew anyway.

Now, to the captain, the boy was just a toy, utterly expandable and replaceable. And yes, if he was aware of the liaison between boy and private, he thought it was no different. He didn't see the private, at least, had gotten attached. Why would he?

So why was the private in the meeting? As muscle. For both parties. The sergeant neglected the possibility of there being several corrupt soldiers, and the captain... well, we saw the intended use. To silence the sergeant.

Now, I'm not saying it all made sense. By all rights, the sergeant should be dead and the crime covered up. Or are we supposed to think the superspy predicted everything, including the private killing the captain?

[Botan_TM]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I think you misread the situation a bit. The private was the captain's accomplice. A companion in corruption (though he probably only got the crumbs, of course), corruption which included patronizing a clandestine casino staffed by transvestite boy prostitutes. Which is why the captain felt free to talk in front of him. He already knew anyway.

Now, to the captain, the boy was just a toy, utterly expandable and replaceable. And yes, if he was aware of the liaison between boy and private, he thought it was no different. He didn't see the private, at least, had gotten attached. Why would he?

So why was the private in the meeting? As muscle. For both parties. The sergeant neglected the possibility of there being several corrupt soldiers, and the captain... well, we saw the intended use. To silence the sergeant.

Now, I'm not saying it all made sense. By all rights, the sergeant should be dead and the crime covered up. Or are we supposed to think the superspy predicted everything, including the private killing the captain?

I was aware of that private probably was accomplice in some crimes, but as we learn, we had no knowledge about all. That's make sense, there is better to not let your "muscle" know everything, just in case he get drunk or something. From the other hand, if private had known about all, then why should he wait with revenge up to this point?

By the way, when private have snaked behind sergeant? Was he there from the same beginning, or he opened door so silently that sergeant have not noticed?

I even wonder, if original story is the same, of if it was cut in order to finish it within one episode.

[Yu Ominae]

He just went behind his back.

Honma was too busy trying to get Oikawa to give up that Yoshino was able to poke his pistol at him.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

The latest episode...Nope, can't do this.

Don't get me wrong, the visuals are top-notch, the soundtrack is great, the setting is great. But the writing? The characters? That "reveal" was Erased level of badly handled drama/narrative. It really falls flat on its face in terms of execution. I know that not every show can be as good as Rakugo in that department, but this was disappointing.

The writing leaves a lot to be desired(even if we ignore how utterly surreal at trying to portray Japan as "neutral" the show is, going as far as having a superspy be shocked that Japan would ally with Germany, etc), the characters lack any sort of flair or characterization and the way the "twists" are executed feels poorly thought out and unfinished(the handling of france last episode, the couple running away last episode, the Erased level "reveal" this episode, the dissonance between hearing american speak english in first episode yet having everybody in france talk japanese, etc). It just falls apart for me as a narrative.

And the episodic nature of the show is not doing anything for me. Now, I am not against episodic(Gits SAC was one of my all time favorite shows), but with Joker Game there's no real reason to care about anything that is happening. The setting is great, the set up for the characters and stories was not. Despite its pretty visuals and cinematography, the show just lacks...narrative coherence? quality of execution? soul?

Considering the next episode is storyboarded by the dude who did such an "amazing" job with GITS:Arise, I don't think I can continue this show. Sadly this is it for me as far as Joker Game is concerned.

Well, as a whole, let me just say I'm not really seeing any of the issues you're seeing.

One tiny nitpick though. It's not that everybody in france talked Japanese. They were likely speaking French. But you can't really expect the audience to understand what's being said, do you?

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Well, as a whole, let me just say I'm not really seeing any of the issues you're seeing.

One tiny nitpick though. It's not that everybody in france talked Japanese. They were likely speaking French. But you can't really expect the audience to understand what's being said, do you?

Yet somehow they were okay with having an englishman speak english in first episode?
Either do one or the other. Don't go halfway. Either have everyone speak Japanese and make audience assume it is for viewer convenience or have everyone speak their own languages. Doing both only makes it look very poorly thought out.

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

Yet somehow they were okay with having an englishman speak english in first episode?
Either do one or the other. Don't go halfway. Either have everyone speak Japanese and make audience assume it is for viewer convenience or have everyone speak their own languages. Doing both only makes it look very poorly thought out.

English is a world language after all. It's also not like Joker Game's the first and only anime, or generally series / movie, to do this.

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

even if we ignore how utterly surreal at trying to portray Japan as "neutral" the show is, going as far as having a superspy be shocked that Japan would ally with Germany, etc)

Japan's decision to enter into the Tripartite Pact was by far not a smooth sailing representing a consensus. There were significant factions opposing an all too close alliance with Germany, most notably from the side of the navy. Yonai Mitsumasa, Prime Minister in the first half of 1940, before that he was navy minister, was anti-German. One reason he lost his spot was due to this opposition which was seen as a hindrance especially by the IJA and they forced his resignation after Germany defeated France in June 1940. Other notable opponents of the Tripartite Pact include Yamamoto Isoroku, in 1940 commander of the Combined Fleet, and Inoue Shigeyoshi, in 1940 chief of the IJN Aviation Bureau.

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by Kakurin-san

English is a world language after all. It's also not like Joker Game's the first and only anime, or generally series / movie, to do this.


Japan's decision to enter into the Tripartite Pact was by far not a smooth sailing representing a consensus. There were significant factions opposing an all too close alliance with Germany, most notably from the side of the navy. Yonai Mitsumasa, Prime Minister in the first half of 1940, before that he was navy minister, was anti-German. One reason he lost his spot was due to this opposition which was seen as a hindrance especially by the IJA and they forced his resignation after Germany defeated France in June 1940. Other notable opponents of the Tripartite Pact include Yamamoto Isoroku, in 1940 commander of the Combined Fleet, and Inoue Shigeyoshi, in 1940 chief of the IJN Aviation Bureau.

Does not make it okay just because other shows did it. Either way its not the biggest probelm.

Japan's war crimes and behavior being on level of Nazi germany is undeniable fact. Sure there was opposition(as always), but it was minority. Any government official let alone the supposed spy would know that Japan will enter a pact with Germany in order to try to leech off resources for their own drastic invasion into China. And the spy was not just disapproving. he was literally all "OMG why would this happen and how!? I never saw it coming!"

[Kakurin]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

Japan's war crimes and behavior being on level of Nazi germany is undeniable fact. Sure there was opposition(as always), but it was minority. Any government official let alone the supposed spy would know that Japan will enter a pact with Germany in order to try to leech off resources for their own drastic invasion into China.

1) Japanese war crimes are absolutely irrelevant regarding the issue of the Japanese-German alliance.

2) Your description of the issue itself is far too simple, school-book like, reducing cause and effect and blending out the conflicts at hand, in addition to a misplaced assumption. Japan domestically in the 1930s was far more torn than Germany after 1933 where there was little opposition and debates regarding the course of action. Your attempt to marginalise the opposition to a Japanese-German cooperation completely ignores the fact that prior to 1940 nearly the entire leadership of the IJN opposed all-too-close ties with Germany. Prior to 1939-40 the main proponent of a Japanese-German alliance was the IJA with their Northern Strategy aimed at the Soviet Union, and their war in China. The IJN with their Southern Strategy was fundamentally opposed to conflict with the Soviet Union and high-ranking IJN leaders were extremely critical of the IJA's expansion of the war in China. As such Japanese-German relations took a blow when Germany, ignoring the provisions of the Anti-Comintern Pact of 1937, agreed to a pact with the Soviet Union. Negotiations to expand the relations into an alliance during that time also ran into a dead-end since Germany wanted to direct the pact against the United States and Britain, which other than army minister Itagaki Seishiro, just about every cabinet member, as well as the leadership of the IJN refused.

The situation began to change in 1940 when Germany overran Western Europe. With the weakness of the European colonial powers and seemingly good German-Soviet relations to army started favouring southern expansion. Thus negotiations towards a Tripartite Pact were restarted, the cabinet of Prime Minister Yonai who opposed an alliance with Germany on principle ousted, but now with an entirely different target. The aim of the alliance was deterrence against the United States. The main drivers on Japanese side hoped to expand the Tripartite Pact to include the Soviet Union to keep the US in check and give Japan free hand in Southeast Asia. To one of the main proponents of the Tripartite Pact, foreign minister Matsuoka Yōsuke, alliance with Germany was all but a tool to achieve alliance with the Soviet Union. China was completely irrelevant to the decision. With this change in focus IJN resistance waned and the Tripartite Pact was concluded in September 1940.

The episode in France is set before September 1940, so the alliance was still in doubt. While the momentum moved towards the Tripartite Pact significant hurdles still existed, including opposition by high-ranking Japanese officials / officers who possessed good knowledge on the capabilities of the United States. These people correctly assessed that the alliance wouldn't keep Japan out of a war with the United States, but rather worsen the relations of Japan and the US. Assuming Hatano to be a knowledgeable man with a realistic view on the world it is not implausble at all that he would find the idea of Japan binding itself to Germany shocking. Moreover, Hatano had been in France for some time. It's pretty unlikely that he was on top of things regarding the latest domestic development in Japan.

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

And the spy was not just disapproving. he was literally all "OMG why would this happen and how!? I never saw it coming!"

That's your impression. One that I don't share. You are exaggerating quite a bit here.

[Botan_TM]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

Either do one or the other. Don't go halfway. Either have everyone speak Japanese and make audience assume it is for viewer convenience or have everyone speak their own languages. Doing both only makes it look very poorly thought out.

I disagree there, because situations were different.
In first episode only one person was a foreigner and interpreter was needed, language barrier existed there. In French episode every person was speaking and understanding French, such emphasising of language difference/barrier would have no real reason, because language barrier was not existing.

From the other hand, in fourth episode we can assume, that English inspector was speaking in Japanese?