2008-10-23, 09:42 | Link #301 | |
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Well, I don't think that conspiracy VF-19 theory applies here. The most probable reason would be that VF-19 is a pricer unit to mass produce. It may also require more maintence an pricirer parts. There has to be a reason as why did an gramps all powerful VF-19 got replaced by VF-171. I don't think military would go for an inferior Fighter as their main force in combat. My guess would be that it's old tech design may be harder to adapt to newest technology unlike VF-17 which could be easily modified. Let's not forget that VF-19 was a highly specified Fighter. adaptability was not it's purpose.
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2008-10-23, 17:54 | Link #302 | |
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The main advantages of the -171 series are the fact that it's relatively cheap compared to other VF's with similar multimission capabilities, it is excellent for space-based use, and the usability enhancements secure it a place in the front lines despite the existence of other craft which are better dogfighters (the VF-19, VF-22) in space and atmosphere. However, the VF-25 appears to be a return to the older philosophy of a multimission fighter, which is complemented by the ease of equipment changes. It does everything the VF-171 does now, but has a better aerodynamic profile for in-atmosphere work, which is necessary once a Macross colonization group settles down on a planet somewhere. |
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2008-10-24, 00:02 | Link #303 | |||
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The Mass Produced VF-19F was an upgrade to the original YF-19. It featured a much more powerfull engines and less mass thus the WtT ratio was much highter. It was also redesigned for the avionics to maximize performance in the space envioroment. It featured much more optional armaments and packs as well as another base version - S type and P Type. VF-19F specs are higher even as a mass production unit then YF-19, not to mention the VF-19S which was a much better unit then the Basara's Red Excalibur. Quote:
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About VF-25. It really can't be compared to the 17 or whatever 19/22 version. It's a class of it's own with those ultra high specs. I agree though, the Messiah has some really deadly eq configurations. We can argue about it's origin though. A Naked VF-25 does not feature any serious armaments. All of it's offensive power comes from the Packs. It's only reasonable to assume that VF-25 is a unit that is meant to fly with the packs not as the previous models which could do semi-well on their own. I'd say that's a really huge step forward in the VF designs. The unit can be shaped like a low level mmorpg player into anything the user wants and the reconfigured almost instantly into something else.
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2008-10-24, 00:46 | Link #304 | ||
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What it did offer was the super pack that FAST pack and the later Spiritia pod. Oh, and the ability to mount Sound Booster units and speaker pods. The Fire Valkyrie also had its g-limiters set to a higher tolerance (+39g versus the +35.5 for the VF-19F/S) and seemed to use an older engine and was about 150 kg lighter than the other configurations... which were themselves 200kg lighter than the prototype. Otherwise the specs were the same or slightly downgraded (weapons loadout), with the exception of more thrust due to newer engines and the lighter weight. Quote:
As discussed in Macross 7, the VF-19 wasn't all that common due to the needs it had for a pilot, and it also was somewhat expensive... while regular 'elites' like Diamond Force got the VF-17; normal pilots flew the VF-11B/C planes. The VF-17 was considered a top-line plane up until the VF-19 came out as a mass-production unit, which itself was eclipsed by the VF-22 which carried an extra energy cannon, a lot of micro-missiles, and the ability to pull +60G's compared to the VF-19's +35G limit... much less the VF-17. But the VF-17 was hardly a 'second line' fighter at that point - it was second-line to the audience due to it not being a hero-plane, but that was about it. The VF-11's served the role the VF-171s do in Macross F: being the plane everyone else flies, and which gets blown up to show that the enemy's dangerous. And like I said, the VF-25 is a multimission platform which is a throwback to the VF-1 series of planes; the VF-171 is currently serving a similar mission, which is why it's so common in the UN Spacy inventory as of Macross Frontier. Most of the other Variable Fighters we've seen since the original Macross have been fairly specialized planes, with specific missions they were designed for. The YF-19 and YF-21 of Macross Plus were built to be air/space superiority fighters which could outmaneuver and outshoot any other planes they were sent up against, but weren't really built to be strike fighters or fighter-bombers as they didn't have the missile loadout or heavy armor for it; the VF-11s and VF-4's that preceeded them were built more to be tactical fighters or strike fighters that did two or three missions and that was it (interceptor roles, attacking capital ships, strike missions) with the VF-4 being the more heavily armed of the two. The VF-14 of the movie and the games was described as a 'heavy attack fighter' and carried what looked to be a lot of heavy energy guns and armor. In Macross 7 you have the VF-17 which is a 'special operations fighter for space combat' due to its good performance in space and fairly heavy armament (two lasers, a turret, heavy gatling pod, 24 micromissiles before adding any Super packs), the VF-19 and VF-22 which are aerospace superiority fighters again that could function well in and out of atmosphere unlike the VF-17, and then the game VF-X-2 brought out the VF-500B Star Mirage with its laser cannon, gun pod, and four micromissile launchers along with the now-iconic VB-6 Konig Monster. Oh, and the VA-3M Invader 'flies underwater' VF. Looking at all those series, the only general-purpose fighter which isn't specialized more or less for one role is the VF-500B Star Mirage, whose range of armaments and speed make it more or less fill the 'jack of all trades' role that the VF-1 had to do (by necessity) in the First Space War. The VF-25 is a return to the philosophy that planes should be good in most all roles without necessarily needing to be superior in any one function, with the interchangeable packs giving it the extra edge required to perform superbly in dogfighting (Super pack), attack/strike roles (Armored pack), or support functions (Sniper, Recon variants). And best of all, you could give the Sniper rifle to a VF with a Super or Armored pack as needed, or re-equip the Recon variant by letting it land long enough to exchange packs. And, unlike previous versions of the Armored pack, the VF-25 was able to maintain its maneuverability even despite the extra mass of armor and micromissile launchers as well as the ability to transform. A major breakthrough, there. Oh, and it maintains the 'easy to use' functionality that the VF-171 had, as Alto was able to get it going without much trouble despite not having any real flight time in a front-line Valkyrie up until that point; I don't know if he'd have been able to pull off the same things in Episode 2 if a VF-19 or VF-22 had landed there, as he might've been outperformed by the craft, and the VF-19 was notoriously 'touchy'. Overall, the main breakthrough of the VF-25 isn't its overwhelming performance in terms of speed as compared to other planes so much as its ability to be superior in any role you give it with the right equipment, and still be able to do alright without it because it's not specialized more for one thing than another. |
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2008-10-24, 01:56 | Link #305 | |||||
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If you mean - 1 x small-bore rear anti-aircraft beam gun (mounted center dorsal section in Fighter/GERWALK mode, becomes head turret in Battroid mode) Then both YF-19 and VF-19 has it. Their Standard armament is identical. The only real difference is what I listed below. Aside from that small feature VF-19 is leap improvement. YF-19 2 x Stonewell/Roice B-7 standard internal pallets (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes) featuring air-to-air/air-to-ground general-purpose micro-missile pallets, Bifors BMM-24 all-regime high-maneuverability micro-missile cluster, OR 2 x [4 x] B-19A YF-19-exclusive internal weapons pallets. 4 x chaff dispensers (mounted aft) VF-19F # 2 x internal Little Rock launch systems featuring 24 x high maneuverability micro-missiles OR 6 x medium-range high maneuverability missiles each (mounted ventral side fuselage in Fighter mode, lower legs in GERWALK/Battroid modes); pallet can be alternately equipped with other weapon packs. In other words aside from having additional 4x chaff's and an exclusive internal weapon pallets it does not posses much more firepower. Especially that the VF-19 pallets can be left on the plane while having other Packs equipped. Quote:
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I never saw VF-22 as a better unit then VF-19. It's different but it's hard to say which one is better suited for you, with those specs. Quote:
If you gain additional verniers, armor, and weapons with a Full Armor pack and still have 2x the thrust of VF-19 then I can't possibly imagine how long would a 19 last against such an oponent. VF-25 is indeed tuned with the technology and interface the VF-19/22 lacks. It's only natural that it's an improvement as the world goes on with it's Fighter development. Besides I don't know what kind of maniac would think that ne next line fighters would be less pilot friendly with the technology progress. It probably is easier to handle then Vf-19 but it most certainly ouperforms it as well as 22 in every aspect.
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2008-10-24, 02:47 | Link #306 | |||||
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If the 'elite' of Diamond Force were using it, it definitely wasn't second-line; it was an elite grunt plane, but not an ace's fighter... nor was it as demanding of the pilot as the better planes were. Quote:
I'd have to say the advantages that the VF-22 enjoys over the VF-19 are the better armament loadout (three energy cannons to the two lasers on the VF-19, and 'many' micromissiles which seem to have been borrowed from the Zentradi Queadlunn-Rau design it was based on (although I doubt it packs the full 126 missiles that did). The main issue with the VF-19 was that it was so demanding of the pilot that a lesser pilot whose skills weren't up to the task would likely kill himself flying it if not crash the plane... as everyone up to Isamu Dyson did in Plus. And if it can pull tighter turns to get an angle on the enemy, the speed it moves with is less of an issue than if it can line up a shot on the target. Quote:
The problem with the VF-19 and VF-22 wasn't just cost, but that if a less-skilled pilot flew those planes, he or she would either crash and burn as they couldn't cope with the plane's sensitivity due to slower reflexes or a less-developed flying sense, or would be unable to really take advantage of the extra speed and maneuverability to fly better than they would in a VF-11 The VF-171's ability to act in a multimission capability with 'okay' performance combined with its price is what makes it so useful the the NUNS now, as well as being forgiving enough as a platform that a minor mistake or not being quite as fast on the reflex tests as Max Jenius wouldn't mean your career would end in a fireball on a flight deck. The VF-25, by not being so 'fine-tuned' as those other planes despite having the ability to fly faster than either of them, means that you don't have to be a skilled ace who has hundreds of hours in the cockpit to successfully use one in a dogfight... but if you are an ace, the extra performance means you can take advantage of the plane's full potential. Look at how Ozma was handling his plane in episode 7; despite having only the performance of a 'normal' VF-25 he was able to effectively fly rings around Alto who was technically his better in terms of speed and maneuverability. But at the same time, the fighter could compensate for his relative lack of talent to make him effective without being so 'high-strung' that a second's inattention would cause him to lose control. And by being able to dogfight, do attack fighter duty, and by being able to refit within a few minutes due to extremely modular construction would be able to replace the VF-171's, VF-19's, and VF-14's along with any other 'specialty' craft the NUNS has... and in doing so simplify the logistics chain a lot, as they could use the same parts for most of their planes, and also make planning missions somewhat easier as they wouldn't have to necessarily send in a carrier that had room for all the different plane types into an operation; just keep a smaller ship with the packs handy and refit squadrons as needed. It's versatile in much the same way the VF-1 was versatile, while improving performance in almost every area... and by adding the right pack, it becomes a dominating (as well as cost-effective) platform. Last edited by Haesslich; 2008-10-24 at 03:10. |
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2008-10-24, 04:18 | Link #307 | |||||||
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And well, we can argue about weapons vs. maneuverability/speed. I'd say no amount of weapons will do any good if the target is able to dodge all of them with superior turning ability. That's how I see the Production model to the Prototype. Quote:
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That's the most probable outcome imo. aside from the better spec wise to the Thunderbolt aspect of VF-17 there is nothing first line about it. It was meant to be replaced so it was not the core of the military. Quote:
Verniers or not, moving a 1 ton of mass more and accelerating it with a far lesser engine into maneuvers comparable to YF-19 is somewhat, impossible. This is an irregularity that I see in 22's design. Even if it has it's flexible wings the gravity is an omnipresent force. There is no escaping this fact. However, it it's engines output and, ack, vernier output is released into a different level with releasing those limiters then it 'could' be possible to pull something similar or greater then VF-19. Then again, if it costs the machine or the pilot it's useless. Quote:
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It's also good to see that Alto managed to get a hit on Ozma's Full Armor VF-25S with VF-171EX. PS. This thread starts to resemble the Macross Mecha Discussion Thread. I think it would be better to move all of this into the rightfull place.
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2008-10-24, 14:01 | Link #308 |
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The reason why the YF-21 could usually match up the YF-19 is two-fold.
The first is that both have ultimate accelerations far far higher than what the pilots can withstand. This is why both pretty much have the same _practical_ acceleration. The other reason is because the YF-21 had the inertial vectoring system (one reason why it was heavier in the first place). This is the same system that allowed the QRaus to have unparalleled space maneuverability and very high atmospheric maneuverability (where it really should have maneuvered like a pig). The fully 3-D thrust vectoring and deforming+folding wings were just bonus. With that said, the YF-19 ultimately does have an edge over the YF-21. As for the VF-19F vs the VF-22, they really dropped the ball on it XD |
2008-10-24, 17:51 | Link #309 | |||||
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In atmosphere, it could do very well... but at the same time the VF-19 did have an edge due to the way its wings and canard were set up, from what I could tell, and Isamu pushed it to its very limits. Quote:
Of course, we're going well into the Mecha thread discussion territory, so you're right - best to stop here. Quote:
Of course, Alto slowly catches up with Ozma... but usually only when he's truly pissed off, or a friend's in danger. At that point the gloves come off and he apparently becomes an insane instinctive pilot with good reflexes. You'd almost think he has Zentradi blood in him... |
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2008-11-17, 08:25 | Link #310 |
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Okay unto interracial hybrids.
We know due to the loss of most of the human populace and the addition of the Zentradi to human society, hybrids are a inevitable fact. Then comes in the Zolans. Supposedly they are marsupials and can't have kids with humans. Apparently not! According to the Macross Choronicle one side of Michel Blanc's family has Zolan blood. Either it is possible due to the Protoculture leaving enough genetic manipulation for a hybrid or a human attempt at genetic manipulation for a human-Zolan hybrid. One parent of Michel is a Zolan hybrid. Bunch heres the clincher. Michel also has Zentradi blood on the other side of his geneology. Also a hybrid. So Michel has the genetic inheritance of humans, Zentradi and Zolans. Which makes you wonder if the Protoculture had this in mind all along due to an episode of Macross 7 emphasizing hybrids as Signs of Peace. |
2008-11-17, 16:17 | Link #311 |
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makes sense, as the problem they had with the Zentradi was that they only knew how to fight and relied on bio factories to make new soldiers. Not to mention they lived in sex separated fleets.
The Zolans, I don't know about. Obviously the protoculture had a reason to make the Zentradi, the Zolan I have no idea other than maybe they were a "prototype" zentradi that didn't pan out or they were a result of the seeding program that we saw from the birdman in M0. |
2008-11-17, 20:57 | Link #312 |
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Heh, in the OVAs, the Zolans certainly look human enough to errr... interbreed.
And I hate the fact that they had this beautiful Zolan in one of the OVAs, then have her appear for... gosh, 2 episodes? Give me a break! Although I would not be surprised if the Zolans were modified enough by Protoculture that regardless of their evolutionary origins, they were modified to contain human reproductive organs. - Tak
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2016-04-11, 09:41 | Link #314 | ||
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Well after all these years I'm reviving this thread.
Again the Macross Universe has expanded with two new races. From the planets Windermere and Ragna. It seems the UN/NUN made contact with the native inhabitants a tech uplift. We have yet to know more of Ragna other than being a race of Fish Humans but here is what we know of Windermere from profiles provided and episode 1. The government of Windermere is a monarchy called the Kingdom of Wind and they have a King as head of state. Their fighter pilots are called Aerial Knights. They have an affinity to the Wind or Great Wind as part of their culture. They have apple exports reaching emigration fleets and planets. Their racial characteristic trait is the hair tentacles that glow. In the case of the Aerial Knights it glows with Newtype like spatial awareness. In Freyja Wion's case she can sense music and rhythms as colors indicating a form of Synesthesia. The region of where Windermere and Ragna is at is described in the Forbes article as the Outer Rim. The Zolans from Planet Zola which were featured in Macross Dynamite 7 were located in the Rim Region. There is a probable good explanation for this. According to Egan Loo's Macross Compendium Macross Chronology where he interviewed Big West after the fall of the Stellar Republic there were still Protoculture remnants on the edge of the galaxy. With Earth all records went down with the Survey Ship that seeded the planet modifying its native primates to evolve like the Protoculture. Apparently they seed planets for future colonization. In this region planets like Al Shahal have been colonized. Al Shahal caters to Arab or Muslim culture. Al Shahal also has a Zentradi garrison. The major crisis in this region is the Var Syndrome which causes individuals to be violent. There is a Fold Wave component given a mysterious singer and abnormal Biological Fold Waves of victims which I believe saying Abnormal Spiritia condition. Song Energy, which is a manifestation of positive Spiritia, according to Macross Chronicle is a type of Fold Wave. It can be counteracted by Walkure's own songs. The prologue mentions trans-dimensional voices which can be inferred like Basara and the Nomes the members of Walkure have Space-Time Resonance ability themselves. edit: Update The NUN has become a Federation of races. An alliance between Humans and Zentradi has grown beyond that. But it doesn't mean it is all well. Windermere Ragna Zolans Other unnamed races. Why so many races? http://monkeybacon.mywebcommunity.or...ousPlanets.php Quote:
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Zola according to M7 Dynamite dialog is at the Rim. Whether there is a difference between the Rim and Outer Rim I'm not sure. |
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2016-04-11, 11:44 | Link #316 |
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Something that I only realized just now:
What is Chaos exactly? I initially thought that they were just a NUNS division or something, but seeing episode 2 made me reconsider. Obviously they used to be UNS given that they came off a Macross Colony fleet (the small size of their Island 1 made me think that they're an older fleet), however they don't have the identifying markings of NUNS on any of their hardware and uniforms.
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2016-04-11, 19:16 | Link #317 | |
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Macross VF-X2 gave us Vindirance and Lactence as opposing factions in UN Spacy. Macross the Ride gave us Fasces. In Macros Frontier Galaxy's NUNS was Macross Galaxy Corporate Army. But what we need to remember is that under the NUN planets and fleets have independent governments allied under the Galaxy Treaty with an EU-like parliament body on Earth. Windermere since its revolution is semi-isolationist but trade does still happen as with the apple exports. |
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2016-04-26, 12:23 | Link #318 |
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Planets mentioned first time in Delta.
Al-Shahal Ragna Windermere Listania Ebel Gregor Randor Vordor These are planets in the Rim Worlds region. We are not sure if Zola is among these planets or is closer to the Orion Spiral Arm Rim. Roid mentioned a Brisingr Alliance. Could be the local NUN association, another interplanetary faction or Windermere allies. Spoiler for Named Planets in Macross:
Last edited by ReddyRedWolf; 2016-04-26 at 13:08. |
2016-05-04, 04:42 | Link #319 | |
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