Re:Zero - Episode 17 Discussion / Poll

[Syan48306]

Anyone think the conversation with Beatrice was a little strange?

She isn't able to satisfy his wishes. Is her contract with Subaru from the past still active? Is that why she can't kill him and that she has to send him off somewhere else to die? She can neither protect him properly nor can she kill him - hence the failing of the wishes.

It looked like beatrice knew a lot more than she's leading on.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Syan48306

Anyone think the conversation with Beatrice was a little strange?

She isn't able to satisfy his wishes. Is her contract with Subaru from the past still active? Is that why she can't kill him and that she has to send him off somewhere else to die? She can neither protect him properly nor can she kill him - hence the failing of the wishes.

It looked like beatrice knew a lot more than she's leading on.

She mentions about pain and suffering; maybe she just didn't have the heart to kill Subaru in cold blood like that. It would be too much for her heart to bear.

[felix]

Originally Posted by bakato

And what would be the point of becoming a monster to save the people you care about if you end up not caring about them?
Subaru was trying to die this episode. He sought out Betelgeuse hoping he'd kill him.

You're a bigger monster if you choose to do nothing!

It's like knowing there's a bomb that's gonna blow up a school and you sitting there worrying about what problems you MIGHT have after you stop a god damn disaster.

I'm not saying I'm some kind of martyr here but you're all tacking this idea of "risking your life to save lives" and making it some sort of mortal sin just to somehow save face to this pathetic character. Give me a break, it's a pathetic excuse!

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Umm there is a lot wrong with that. I mean if you want to become a soulless sociopath that's your choice, but I'm sure as heck not going to choose that route.

I love how trying to save everyone suddenly makes you a guranteed souless sociopath. Wonderful.

But that aside, okey so you choose Subaru's route.... everyone else is dead, except you. Have a nice life, you're clearly a great person with a big hearth.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Your problem is that you presume that you'd decide to save the people around you in that situation. Once you become the person that doesn't care about your own life then why would you keep caring about anyone around you? The most logical choice then is to say "screw it, I'm out" and turn your back on everything.

That's some great self serving logic you have.

Following that thinking everyone who risked their life to save anyone should clearly be preemptively put in jail, since they clearly will all become serial killers or something. They risking their life and all that, so there's no telling when they'll "turn" right?

So what if Rem and Otto and probably the entire caravan there died because of you? and in the case of Rem for you. So what if you know the entire village is gonna die, kids, families, everyone. Gotta protect no.1 right? Don't worry about Rem dieing there for you, since she risked her life for you she was clearly on the way to be a psycho right? And let's forget about Emillia who cared for you more then was really called of her given what she knew. It's more important YOU avoid becoming those soulless ones by trying to save her!

You're essentially tacking the "screw it, I'm out" solution only you're not out right saying it. Since what the hell else are you doing other then saving your own skin? There's only TWO options "save everyone" or "save yourself" there's no convenient wash your hands of the affair option you're implying.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

And what is the "stay pure" nonsense?

That refers to your position, hence why I used quotes when I wrote it. I'll spell it out if it wasn't clear. As far as I understand, you believe that so long as you keep zero-risk of getting moved from some idealistic high ground (ie. you keep "pure"), somehow everyone dieing around you is perfectly justified and you can live as a "normal" human being or go to haven for your good deeds or whatever.

My assessment is you're a monster if you let people die around you, and no excuse other then trying and failing can save you.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

You have all my pity.

Keep your pity. If someone ever saves your life give it to him. Though I can tell you some of us will save you even if you think of us as "soulless sociopath" for doing it, because that's just how important a life is.

[Wandering Soul]

Originally Posted by Haruyasha

Welp, lets see... if we follow the pattern, this is the last time Subaru dies.

What I never understood is that this entire time, Puck could easily tell Emilia that Subaru is telling the truth, yet he doesn't ever show up until it's too late. His mind reading power is virtually useless.

Puck can't read his minds, he can simply read people so that he can tell whether or not they are honest. He can also tell if they have any hostile intentions towards he or Emilia.

Even if Puck can tell that Subaru is telling the truth, the fact that Subaru can't say anything without someone paying the price still stands.

[Cicili]

Originally Posted by Syan48306

Anyone think the conversation with Beatrice was a little strange?

She isn't able to satisfy his wishes. Is her contract with Subaru from the past still active? Is that why she can't kill him and that she has to send him off somewhere else to die? She can neither protect him properly nor can she kill him - hence the failing of the wishes.

It looked like beatrice knew a lot more than she's leading on.

This, and she mentioned Roswall too.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Haruyasha

Welp, lets see... if we follow the pattern, this is the last time Subaru dies.

What I never understood is that this entire time, Puck could easily tell Emilia that Subaru is telling the truth, yet he doesn't ever show up until it's too late. His mind reading power is virtually useless.

That's because Puck can only read emotions and intentions. It's not literal mind reading, but instead an empathic ability. I.e he could telling if you're lying, but not what your lying about without context.

[Akito Kinomoto]

Originally Posted by aohige

Because Emilia didn't die to the Whale, but rather, the "dark hands" of the curse

...how did carriage boy know the team got killed by the White Whale if it wipes its victims from memorial existence?

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

...how did carriage boy know the team got killed by the White Whale if it wipes its victims from memorial existence?

I suppose some were just crushed by direct impacts and not eaten? Maybe it was full?

Or maybe something else happened and they just blamed it on the whale later. If some of them were eaten and some just killed and left to rot...maybe their memories were reworked to thinking that was their full party.

[Metaneo]

Originally Posted by Akuma Kousaka

...how did carriage boy know the team got killed by the White Whale if it wipes its victims from memorial existence?

Because it didnt target them, it killed the bandana guy, everyone scattered, then it targeted Subaru' carriage

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by felix

You're a bigger monster if you choose to do nothing!

It's like knowing there's a bomb that's gonna blow up a school and you sitting there worrying about what problems you MIGHT have after you stop a god damn disaster.

I'm not saying I'm some kind of martyr here but you're all tacking this idea of "risking your life to save lives" and making it some sort of mortal sin just to somehow save face to this pathetic character. Give me a break, it's a pathetic excuse!

I love how trying to save everyone suddenly makes you a guranteed souless sociopath. Wonderful.

But that aside, okey so you choose Subaru's route.... everyone else is dead, except you. Have a nice life, you're clearly a great person with a big hearth.

That's some great self serving logic you have.

Following that thinking everyone who risked their life to save anyone should clearly be preemptively put in jail, since they clearly will all become serial killers or something. They risking their life and all that, so there's no telling when they'll "turn" right?

So what if Rem and Otto and probably the entire caravan there died because of you? and in the case of Rem for you. So what if you know the entire village is gonna die, kids, families, everyone. Gotta protect no.1 right? Don't worry about Rem dieing there for you, since she risked her life for you she was clearly on the way to be a psycho right? And let's forget about Emillia who cared for you more then was really called of her given what she knew. It's more important YOU avoid becoming those soulless ones by trying to save her!

You're essentially tacking the "screw it, I'm out" solution only you're not out right saying it. Since what the hell else are you doing other then saving your own skin? There's only TWO options "save everyone" or "save yourself" there's no convenient wash your hands of the affair option you're implying.

That refers to your position, hence why I used quotes when I wrote it. I'll spell it out if it wasn't clear. As far as I understand, you believe that so long as you keep zero-risk of getting moved from some idealistic high ground (ie. you keep "pure"), somehow everyone dieing around you is perfectly justified and you can live as a "normal" human being or go to haven for your good deeds or whatever.

My assessment is you're a monster if you let people die around you, and no excuse other then trying and failing can save you.

Keep your pity. If someone ever saves your life give it to him. Though I can tell you some of us will save you even if you think of us as "soulless sociopath" for doing it, because that's just how important a life is.

Actually, I think you're possibly taking things a little far here. For one thing, I don't think the issue was something about suicide being a sin or trying to save everyone is bad or something like you apparently were interpreting, but rather becoming cavalier about death is a really dangerous situation. I mean, if his life no longer means anything to him on account of his ability to reboot, then what would anyone else's life matter? If he can always bring them back then there's no problem letting them die, and yes that would erode you on certain levels and risk turning you into something terrible. So no, I would not agree with the idea that he should just throw his life away. Furthermore, right now he's trying to find a way to make things work. In that situation the more information you have the better. You could die a thousand times trying to find a choice that will get you out of something you'd know to avoid if you'd waited just a little longer before resetting. But seriously, he's repeatedly thrown himself into the line of fire for other people, and each time experienced things that I sincerely doubt you have ever experienced. It's comparatively easy to jump into the fire when you don't know what it's like to be burned, but after experiencing the pain, the regret, the anguish, and all of the terror that comes with a violent death over and over again, it only stands to reason that he'd be fighting inside between his sense of justice that tells him to die for everyone's sake and the rapidly growing voice inside yelling "I don't want to die I don't want to die please never again I don't want to die ever again!!!" It takes incredible bravery to put your life on the line; it takes even more when you really know on a deep level just what it's going to be like. And for all the talk of him being a coward and such, consider his choice to go all the way telling Emilia about his power. The sensation of having his heart touched and almost crushed was so terrible that it gave Subaru as much terror as anything he'd experienced to that point when it first happened. He managed to use it repeatedly by making sure that he stopped once the reaction hit to minimize the damage, but it was still a terrifying thing to him. This time he decided to go for it, and either let this incredible death happen to him or finally explain to Emilia why he is the way he is. That takes some serious guts, far more than you or I or most people probably have.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by felix

Both Emilia and Rem died this episode I honestly couldn't care less. Literally felt nothing.

If there's anything this Subaru madness loop has illustrated from a writing perspective, is that once you loop enough times everything starts to get devalued and devalued into nothing. You reach a point where everything in the story (except maybe the main character) has ZERO value while in the loop. Events, character actions, and so on only have value once a loop concludes or you KNOW you're in the "end loop." Which is frankly boring.

Into nothing? Each loop gives you new information about what's happening. New lore details, politics, introducing and developing new characters, epic action, messed up cliffhangers, mysteries being solve and the arise of new ones... i mean, each loop is far from boring. And like you said, all the drama and the characters dying serves to develop Subaru's character and it explains why he is so fucked up at times. This could be crucial for future events. The journey also matters, not just the destination. Also, given the huge balls this author has shown so far, i seriously believe there will be a loop where Subaru will not be able to save everyone dear to him! But if that happens, people will still bitch about it, i guarantee it
Plus, not knowing when the save point is, should also keep things interesting and unpredictable. Look at Emilia and Subaru discussion (and also the thing with the knights).. almost everyone was screaming for Subaru to kill himself just because of that but guess what, it didn't happened and the loop started after that. It was unexpected for me at least!

And i have to mention that saying you do not care anymore if Emilia or Rem dies is no different from watching the adventures of other characters in another stories/animes and not caring about them, because you know they will definitely not die since the hero is super powerfull and will conveniently appear in the right time and save everyone. Re:Zero is just an alternative way of telling the plot. That and portraying magic as a real deadly art making even the lesser minions as someone to fear is why i like this show so much and i think that is why it got so popular.

Originally Posted by felix

This is slowly making the series un-recommendable... "Go watch Re:Zero it's really good! Except for 2-6 episodes at a time when the character will behave like a complete moron and gracefully omit saying or seeing the obvious even when its so easy he should have said it by mistake by now... but it's good... kind of"

Those 2-6 episodes actually explains why Subaru acts the way he acts but i think people are way too used to Lelouch-like characters where nothing seems to shake them. He is far from being the idiot a lot of people seem to think he is. His actions have a background, being it from all the stuff he went through, not having time to formulate plans because there is always something happening around him or because of his lack of social skills from being a neet/otaku. Subaru dying in the first episode was the realest portray i ever saw if some nerd happens to be teleported to a medieval fantasy world..lol. He is a character with flaws, a fucking nerd and that is what makes him so interesting, complex and cringe-worthy at times

[watisit]

Originally Posted by Dist

Did you not watch the episode?

It's pretty obvious that everyone who die by the White Whale get forgotten, as was proven already in the previous episode when one of the riders disappeared and Otto immediately commented that no one was riding there to begin with.

Dunno how White Whale can make everything related to that person disappear as well like items and whatnot but lets call it plot I suppose.

To that end the Sword Saint should not be remembered even if there were records of him because those records should not exist if he was consumed by White Whale. But perhaps that is the key? The person must be '' eaten '' by the whale? Whereas if the Sword Saint just got killed in action but his body was left behind he was thus not forgotten.

(Who is this Sword Saint anyway? When Otto mentioned him it seemed like Subaru knew who they were talking about but how could he? I don't think it's been ever mentioned before?)

The sword saint mentioned here is the previous generation's sword saint, the one before Reinhart. Probably the father or uncle.

Originally Posted by Apache Thunder

The real question is....Why doesn't Suburu end up forgetting the people the whale consumed like everyone else?

Because of the love around him I would presume. That's his only special characteristic.

And remember, it isn't just the sword saint. People remembered there was an entire punitive force too.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Syan48306

Anyone think the conversation with Beatrice was a little strange?

She isn't able to satisfy his wishes. Is her contract with Subaru from the past still active? Is that why she can't kill him and that she has to send him off somewhere else to die? She can neither protect him properly nor can she kill him - hence the failing of the wishes.

It looked like beatrice knew a lot more than she's leading on.

I mostly thought it very strange she found Subaru with a dead Emilia and didn't question anything.

[zero7090]

Originally Posted by BladeMancer

Seriously? Read Aohiges post, no one knows about the white whales power because all traces of that person existing is gone when it's eaten so they don't know what happens to the person whose eaten.

You know there are people that survived to tell the tale, that why people know its name is a white whale in the first place right? If they survived then there is a way to run from it.

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Once you become the person that doesn't care about your own life then why would you keep caring about anyone around you?

The same reason why parents in third world countries, no in everywhere on earth can sacrifice themselves for their children? They can eat less, sleep less, work more hours so their sons and daughters can have warm meals, go to school and have a better future. It is not they don't care about their own life anymore. They know how important those things are, that why they are doing their very best to for their children to have a fulfilling life.

Thus main character, himself, knowing how painful dying is and have the power to change it, will kill himself over and over to save the people he love.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by zero7090

You know there are people that survived to tell the tale, that why people know its name is a white whale in the first place right? If they survived then there is a way to run from it.

Are you seriously not understanding what he said?
Stop and think about it for a moment. How does "surviving it" lead to knowing what happened to the victims?
How would you learn its powers?

You don't even have any recollection of the victims ever existing in the first place. No one does.
Only victims you would remember are the ones that died but didn't get consumed out of existence, in which case, would not lead to knowing its powers.
Its powers are literally immune from being known to anyone other than anomalies like Subaru.

I have a feeling you're just not putting any thought into this.
Think about it for just 1 minute and you'll go "ooooooooh. DUH." and smack yourself in the forehead.

[Syan48306]

And I can't believe she barely made a comment on a dead Emilia either.Only something about Roswel. I feel like she transcends time or can feel the previous resets or contracts or something.

[Syan48306]

Towards the end of the episode, we get some lines from Betelgeuse that hints at why he's doing what he's doing.

Betelgeuse to dead Emilia: "Still, Unable to to overcome even one Ordeal (Subaru?), much less confront one of the sins (Betelgeuse Sloth?), and after all this waiting. She trips over the first pebble in her path, and it's over. Ah, you're truly slothful."

This suggests that he's doing what he's doing because Satella needs him to do this and has been waiting for a long time to what? Revive?

Does Satella revive as the witch if she is able to survive all of the sins or kill all of the sins? Clearly, it feels like Betelgeuse is doing what he's doing for the greater good of whoever he's serving.


How does Subaru fit into the greater plan. He's clearly part of it as well.

[FlameSparkZ]

Originally Posted by Syan48306

Towards the end of the episode, we get some lines from Betelgeuse that hints at why he's doing what he's doing.

Betelgeuse to dead Emilia: "Still, Unable to to overcome even one Ordeal (Subaru?), much less confront one of the sins (Betelgeuse Sloth?), and after all this waiting. She trips over the first pebble in her path, and it's over. Ah, you're truly slothful."

This suggests that he's doing what he's doing because Satella needs him to do this and has been waiting for a long time to what? Revive?

Does Satella revive as the witch if she is able to survive all of the sins or kill all of the sins? Clearly, it feels like Betelgeuse is doing what he's doing for the greater good of whoever he's serving.


How does Subaru fit into the greater plan. He's clearly part of it as well.

This is just my opinion/theory, but...at first I thought the "Ordeal" was something the Cult itself had to overcome, but this last episode pretty much reveals that they are the Ordeal, and the one that has to overcome it is Emila.

I assume when the cult found out about Emilia, they saw her as a potential vessel for the witch...but in order to actually be one, she has to clear these "Ordeals".
And yes, I guess Beetlejuice ( ) saw Subaru as a "pebble" that Emilia tripped on. And because she failed even before the Ordeal began, he insulted her.


That aside, now that we know that Subaru can see the "Unseen Hands", so he should be of use when he gathers a fighting force to eliminate the Cult...but it seems that they'll have to deal with that whale first...

[Nicaea]

Why can Betelgeuse control those hands and Subaru not? Does our slothful madman have some sort of intention that triggers the hands to move a certain way for him? Also interesting to see that throughout their encountere, Betelgeuse has had zero intention to truly kill Subaru.

[Triple_R]

I have to admit that pathetic/suffering/tortured Subaru is getting a little bit much now, even for my tastes.

I've defended Subaru a lot in previous episodes, and I certainly respect how traumatized he must be, but it's a little disappointing that he's turned into a pure ball of impulsive rage and fever-pitch desperation. He doesn't seem to be even trying to calm himself and think things through clearly.

You've done it, Tappei Nagatsuki. You've effectively wrote a deconstruction of isekai anime. It's almost impossible for you to screw that up now. But one way you can screw up the story in general is by overdoing it. Subaru has been broken down enough. He's struggled enough. Much more of this will seem like pure sadism for its own sake. It would be best if a serious turnaround happens soon, in my opinion.


The above being said, three key factors make this episode still good overall:

1. Rem's wonderful moments. Always a joy to see Rem shine, and she certainly shines here.

2. Some interesting plot twists. It seems like the White Whale wipes his victims completely out of existence, including retroactively. Ram having no memories of Rem is a very strong "WTF?!" moment.

3. Seeing Beatrice, Emilia, and Ram again. Even given the very dark circumstances, it was still nice to finally see these characters again.