Macross Delta - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Thess]

Originally Posted by FlamingMangos

They're not even back to duty yet. You can still see them look down after Mirage's speech. They still have to solve this problem between themselves.


I mean, does this look like they resolved this between them already and Mirage has put them back to duty?

Spoiler:

I don't think so.

Honestly that seemed more like Mirage blowing out her own frustrations (just like the time she childishly beat Hayate because she was frustrated with herself) than helping them. Now they aren't even talking thanks to her outburst.

I'm sure she (and the authors) meant well but it hurt her character to be used as a piece of plot device.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by FlamingMangos

I don't see how that is being different. She's still serving as a role to speed up the development between Hayate and Freyja and seriously, Mirage is the one needing to grow up. She needs something else in life besides Hayate. She exist solely for Hayate. You rarely see her develop relationships with other characters while Hayate and Freyja does. The situations are always serious and she's always thinking about Hayate while looking down all the time when she sees Hayate and Freyja together. It's extremely hypocritical of her to even say those things.

You know what?

From the very get go this WAS her thing.
Her life was to be part of the Delta platoon, to be the grunt of the team, protecting the Walkures, so on and so forth. Everyone there already knew her, how she was like, what would make her tick, and clearly decided she was reliable to both look after the rookie and later get a promotion. She already existed in the Delta platoon and with her not-so-playful attitude, nothing drastic was going to happen in the first place.

I think the Freyja birthday episode says it best about how people feel about her, the group wants to throw a party and Mirage is dragged into being a part of it (They weren't taking no for an answer) and ultimately ends up organizing everyone. She's fine with bossing even her superiors around in a casual situation. Heck some of the characters even stalk her + Hayate during the present finding scene (where in which it was Hayate who dragged her out because he didn't know what to get for a girl) and crack jokes behind their backs. She's reserved but they clearly don't mind having her around for group dinners and vice versa so....??? (I mean compare that to Messer who always declines???)

Hell she went to confront Messer about his whole VAR thing as well. Sure Hayate was there but it's not like she did it because Hayate doesn't mean her worry about her superior- whose opinion she highly regards- doesn't exist.

At the end of the day, if Hayate does leave what's even going to change for Mirage? She'll be heart broken but she has her duties and she has her peers. Heck even if she were to leave she has a military career and experience in a leadership position. She's straight laced and has the capacity to get people going. Her resolution over her family name can honestly get sorted out at any time.

Compare that to Hayate whose passion to fly hinges on whether on not a girl sings? Otherwise he's a serial job jumper who doesn't understand basic comradery, or Freyja as the songstress who drops off her profession over the safety of a love interest. It's not even oh, it's confirmed she shouldn't sing at all by professionals. She refuses to run the tests to seek possible resolution. Oh and she's defected from Windermere who wants to enslave you all, but she doesn't want to sing for humans now either because Hayate. She only knows how to plant apples outside of potentially dangerous singing and her life span is short anyway.

To tell me Mirage needs to grow up in light of all these small minded protagonists is kind of....>_>

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by ippus

At the end of the day, if Hayate does leave what's even going to change for Mirage? She'll be heart broken but she has her duties and she has her peers. Heck even if she were to leave she has a military career and experience in a leadership position. She's straight laced and has the capacity to get people going. Her resolution over her family name can honestly get sorted out at any time.

Just my theory but if Hayate does not fly, Mirage can't fly as well too. Like her name means, she is a Mirror Image and the other side on the mirror is.. Hayate.

And duties can't fill a persons heart. Maybe the money bucket but that won't give emotional happyness.

I still hope to see her pew pew dancing and fighting with Hayate in their VFs like in the intro at the start of the series.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Just my theory but if Hayate does not fly, Mirage can't fly as well too. Like her name means, she is a Mirror Image and the other side on the mirror is.. Hayate.

And duties can't fill a persons heart. Maybe the money bucket but that won't give emotional happyness.

I still hope to see her pew pew dancing and fighting with Hayate in their VFs like in the intro at the start of the series.

I understand XD But it doesn't change the fact that Mirage on the whole has always been in a good position elsewhere. She has issues about her purpose in life but it hasn't affected her career from what we know (just her insecurities). She's a hard worker and her environment has been pushing her into a leadership position. She's still in the midst of growth but it's not like nothing is there.

Her major character flaw is her social awkwardness and lack of intimacy, but when the show tries to deal with it people are making it out like she has nothing going for her :/ Like what's the hyperbole...that if Mirage doesn't get Hayate she has nothing? I don't know who perpetuated it but that is absolute nonsense :/

[Father Hentai]

One thing about the scene where Mikumo was in the tank. Why are there so many empty? Has there been cloning technology introduced in Macross ever?

[darkplatform]

Originally Posted by ippus

Her major character flaw is her social awkwardness and lack of intimacy, but when the show tries to deal with it people are making it out like she has nothing going for her :/ Like what's the hyperbole...that if Mirage doesn't get Hayate she has nothing? I don't know who perpetuated it but that is absolute nonsense :/

Well, replace 'nothing' with 'piloting'.
It shouldn't and I don't like it but sadly, it feels like that sometimes.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

One thing about the scene where Mikumo was in the tank. Why are there so many empty? Has there been cloning technology introduced in Macross ever?

In the trailer for Delta Scramble, Hiraku mistakes Minmay with Mikumo so maybe she was an attempt to clone her. Or they mixed her "corpse" found in some ruins with Minmay DNA?

[magnuskn]

Thanks, ippus, for pointing out a good part of the episode, i.e. Mirage chewing out Freyja and Hayate. We'll have to see where that leads, but at the very least she is out of the corner of just making grumpy faces and saying Hayate/Delta X. ^^

[ippus]

Originally Posted by darkplatform

Well, replace 'nothing' with 'piloting'.
It shouldn't and I don't like it but sadly, it feels like that sometimes.

Well..I mean... Alto wanted a relationship with flying/the sky so....IS IT REALLY SO BAD??
At worse she gets to accomplish a Macross guy's wet dream LOOOL -shot-

[Triple_R]

I might get back to the Walkure-focused discussion later, but for now, I want to focus more on the bigger fuller Delta picture here, based on what ippus and some other viewers have mentioned. There's certainly some truth to what ippus wrote, but I approach it from a different angle.

One of the things I've loved about Delta, particularly in its first half, is the strong comfy sense, bordering on family, that comes from the full Delta squadron (Johnson, Arad, Messer, Mirage, Hayate, Chuck, and Walkure). In other words, there's a tremendous implied warmth and relaxed conversation throughout Delta squadron. You'd see this in little scenes of 2 or more pilots conversing with 2 or more Walkure members. There were no pilot/idol boundaries, and there wasn't even much of a seniority boundary as Hayate and Freyja were both accepted pretty easily and casually by most of Delta Squadron. But while there was a good family atmosphere to the entire group, there also weren't a lot of intense one-to-one relationships within Delta. Probably the best example of this is Chuck, as Chuck seems to get along decently well with everyone and is buddies with all of them, but doesn't exactly have a best friendship with anybody here.

So what gave Delta Squadron its tight family feel isn't the characters having deep knowledge of each other, and one-to-one tight bonds with each other, but it was due to these factors:

1. Almost everybody acted like good, friendly, professional, responsible adults. Even the sterner people (Mikumo and Messer) clearly showed at times how they put the well-being of Delta Squadron first. This sort of thing tends to put people at ease, as I suspect it did for Hayate and Freyja.

2. Lots and lots of implied trust, largely based on No. 1 above.


But what's happened in the last few episodes is that Arad has simply destroyed a lot of this trust. The very personal secrets Arad kept from Hayate has clearly had a negative impact on Hayate. But I think it's also had spillover effects. In a previous episode, there's a telling scene between Arad and Kaname that makes it clear that Kaname's feelings towards Arad have changed a little, possibly for the worst (and Arad keeping dark secrets from her is probably the reason why). And the secret Arad kept from Hayate also applies to Freyja - I mean, Windermere is her planet of birth, after all. Would be good to know that the guy she's become best friends with is the son of the guy that dropped a WMD on her planet.

So, long story short, Delta Squadron's sense of mutual trust has been severely hurt in recent episodes, striking at the very core of what made this group like a comfy family to begin with. So it's no surprise that the two newest members - Hayate and Freyja - aren't taking this well at all. So it's not something I think they should be particularly faulted for, at least not yet. Besides, there is some good news here. The good news is that they clearly care a lot about each other, demonstrating that their feelings for each other go beyond their places in Delta Squadron.

But yes, there hasn't been a lot of tight one-to-one bonds made within Delta Squadron or within Walkure (the one lone exception being Makina/Reina, of course). You could maybe even argue that the Walkure members accepted each other too easily, so some/most of the members never felt a need to really open-up in order to gain that sort of acceptance and friendship.

Now, as for Mirage, I agree with ippus that Delta Squadron itself means a lot to her. And I think Mirage wants Delta Squadron to be as strong and united as possible, so full kudos to Mirage for taking the decisive actions she did in this episode.

[FlamingMangos]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

but at the very least she is out of the corner of just making grumpy faces and saying Hayate/Delta X. ^^

It seems to me she's going back to that. In the end she'll still have to let Hayate and Freyja solve their own problems which will still mean she'll have to watch them get back together and even see their relationship grow stronger. It's not going to be easy for her not be down about that.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But what's happened in the last few episodes is that Arad has simply destroyed a lot of this trust. The very personal secrets Arad kept from Hayate has clearly had a negative impact on Hayate. But I think it's also had spillover effects. In a previous episode, there's a telling scene between Arad and Kaname that makes it clear that Kaname's feelings towards Arad have changed a little, possibly for the worst (and Arad keeping dark secrets from her is probably the reason why). And the secret Arad kept from Hayate also applies to Freyja - I mean, Windermere is her planet of birth, after all. Would be good to know that the guy she's become best friends with is the son of the guy that dropped a WMD on her planet.

You view this from a private view. At a point you are right, but if someone like Arad with his rank would be loose-liped he can say goodbye to his carreer in no time.

I think he was in a dilemma when Roid showed the vids when a NUN plane dropped a bomb. Before that it was never an issue between Hayate and Freyja. I mean how should he have introduced Hayate to Freyja or vice versa? Like "This is cadet Hayate Immelmann, my newest member and the son of the man who dropped a nuke on windermere a few years go." Ehm, not a quite good idea to when you want to build up a team. Anyways. Maybe the next episode will reveal more secrets. Not much episode left and the good part is that Mirage spoke out what she feels.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by FlamingMangos

It seems to me she's going back to that. In the end she'll still have to let Hayate and Freyja solve their own problems which will still mean she'll have to watch them get back together and even see their relationship grow stronger. It's not going to be easy for her not be down about that.

No offense, but... welcome to anime love triangles.

That's the sad reality of love triangles. The "loser" usually gets burned, at least to some degree. Best you can reasonably hope for is that the "bitter" gets some sweet added to it for the love triangle loser, whoever that may be.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

You view this from a private view. At a point you are right, but if someone like Arad with his rank would be loose-liped he can say goodbye to his carreer in no time.

I don't necessarily fault Arad for not telling Hayate this before Hayate confronted Arad on it. However, I really do question Arad keeping this from Kaname. If Delta Squadron are a family, then Arad and Kaname are like the father and mother of it (Johnson is like the colorful Uncle you get a chuckle from at big family gatherings ). Arad leads the guys, and Kaname leads the gals. The bond between Delta Squadron's pilots and Delta Squadron's idols starts at the top, with Arad and Kaname. Which is why it's important for the two people at the top to trust each other, and share critical information with each other.

[FlamingMangos]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No offense, but... welcome to anime love triangles.

That's the sad reality of love triangles. The "loser" usually gets burned, at least to some degree. Best you can reasonably hope for is that the "bitter" gets some sweet added to it for the love triangle loser, whoever that may be.

Although I'm a hayafrey fan. I'm still not convinced Mirage has lost yet. Anything can happen at this point even if it's a asspull.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't necessarily fault Arad for not telling Hayate this before Hayate confronted Arad on it. However, I really do question Arad keeping this from Kaname. If Delta Squadron are a family, then Arad and Kaname are like the father and mother of it (Johnson is like the colorful Uncle you get a chuckle from at big family gatherings ). Arad leads the guys, and Kaname leads the gals. The bond between Delta Squadron's pilots and Delta Squadron's idols starts at the top, with Arad and Kaname. Which is why it's important for the two people at the top to trust each other, and share critical information with each other.

But here we are in the same dilemma again. He is a soldier/mercenary with a military ran and she is a civil person.
Personally said. Between soldiers there is a trust trough their comradeship. The soldiers trust their superior not being ordered wrong and the soldiers proove their trust by following the orders. regardles of confidential information or not. For him it is hard as well to keep secrets but if that is what his job demands, he can't disobey this order unless he want to get courted or loose his job.
I can only imagine that Arad has been advised to not share confidential information and it seems that he also has shown regrets for not being able to tell. At least in some of his expression on his face.

[HirouKeimou]

Of course, even with subs, there's not a lot to add to my original interpretation of this episode (maybe I'm becoming a little more understanding of Japanese the more I see anime? ); however, even so, I do have issues with Kaname assisting Makina and Reina in retrieving Mikumo. Right now, jail time is the last thing this series should go near (because all these conspiracies are enough and it's only 6 episodes from our conclusion). And, learning more about Roid and Keith's childhood is... why is this so late in the game? Pacing in this series is forcing me to like Frontier a little more for its pacing (even if episode 21 through 25 fell so hard).

Originally Posted by FlamingMangos

It seems to me she's going back to that. In the end she'll still have to let Hayate and Freyja solve their own problems which will still mean she'll have to watch them get back together and even see their relationship grow stronger. It's not going to be easy for her not be down about that.

Of course, love triangles are like so, and as for Mirage; I've been thinking it since episode 16: she is the catalyst for Hayate and Freyja's relationship. After all, she introduces Hayate to his feelings for Freyja by questioning them in episode 16; he begins considering them in episode 17; and in this episode now, he is blatantly facing the biggest issue of his relationship with Freyja because of her not singing for/at him anymore and she is here to encourage him into his relationship with Freyja once more. Her love confession here is like a death flag to her ship, in my eyes; as he does not chase her or even respond to her feelings (hell, even Alto moved to respond to Ranka). The thing is, Mirage knows by now his relationship with Freyja is what moves Hayate to continue flying (her song is his wind, obviously), and if Freyja quits singing, Hayate will no longer be able to fly (without her song, "it's like clipping a bird's wings"); it's a no-win situation for them. Ultimately, Mirage's role is no longer a love interest (if she ever was) because now her role is to reaffirm his relationship with Freyja. And, even if it's painful, she will; because they're her friends. It's depressing (especially because I'd like to see her grow as a character outside of Hayate/Freyja interactions) but even if she loses him to Freyja, she now earned two amazing friends who will continue being by her side regardless, so she's not alone and maybe it'll help her move on.

[Akito Kinomoto]

-The episode title should've been Finding Kumo

-I wonder if Hayate realized it when Mirage said she loved them

-Lloyd and Keith are BrOTP

-This is finally shaping up some grey area around the "hero" forces. Doubtful all the dirt on the NUNs gets dug up to put them on equal moral ground with the Windermereans this season, so there's something to look forward to next season

-my money says whatever faction Arad is part of has duped both factions

-Giraffe Blues is the "shit has hit the fan" song

That is all

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by FlamingMangos

Although I'm a hayafrey fan. I'm still not convinced Mirage has lost yet. Anything can happen at this point even if it's a asspull.

Mirage might not have lost yet, but the ball is completely in Hayate's court now. I don't think we can reasonably expect Mirage to do any more than what she's already done, when it comes to making her feelings clear to Hayate. At this point, Hayate either fully reciprocates, or he doesn't.

So the next episode or two should tell the tale. If Hayate doesn't finally get it, then it's over for HayaMira. If he does get it, then he has to at last make a choice - Mirage or Freyja. He could choose Mirage, sure, but if he does, it'll probably because of Mirage's kinda/sorta romantic confession in this episode.

If Hayate doesn't reciprocate to Mirage in the next episode or two, then Mirage is just going to have to live with it. Sad, but that's almost certainly the way it is.

[Magewolf]

You need to think about two things for the infiltrate the hospital mission , security clearance and need to know and Walkure had neither. Mikumo seems to be tied to the protculture somehow and is the only person who has been able to turn back the mind control Nazis so her medical condition being secret makes prefect sense. I am sure finding out about her was one of the reasons the untrustworthy Arab showed up. Also all that makes her a prime target for assassination or kidnapping so having her in a secured section of the hospital ship was a good idea.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by ippus

You know what?Her life was to be part of the Delta platoon, to be the grunt of the team, protecting the Walkures, so on and so forth. Everyone there already knew her, how she was like, what would make her tick, and clearly decided she was reliable to both look after the rookie and later get a promotion. She already existed in the Delta platoon and with her not-so-playful attitude, nothing drastic was going to happen in the first place.

Would be nice to see her actually doing her job instead of disappearing and appearing wherever is convenient.

Originally Posted by ippus

Compare that to Hayate whose passion to fly hinges on whether on not a girl sings? Otherwise he's a serial job jumper who doesn't understand basic comradery, or Freyja as the songstress who drops off her profession over the safety of a love interest.

You're completely disregarding all the issues they had to deal with until it finally exploded just you needed to prop up Mirage to look 'better'? Mirage has never really been put in a difficult situation to know how she reacts, but we know she has acted very childish and emotional in past episodes too.

Let's see what happened to Hayate in a few days: Hayate, who got his reason to live and enjoyed life from Freyja, found out that his father nuked her planet and killed her parents. On top that shhe has only 30 years lifespan which should be spent on her living her life at fullest, the one thing she loves to do she cannot do because she fears it'll kill him. It's not just sobbbb my grandparents are better than me self pity deal as Mirage. Hayate has real accumulated issues not just because "some girl sings". Mirage knows and realizes that Hayate loves Freyja. You can define that love as you want: filial, romantic, platonic, but Freyja is the most important person in his life. In fact, Hayate became a man Mirage fell for because of his relationship with Freyja.

On the other hand, Freyja has been told her goals to sing are a lie because music is a weapon and the proof of it is how it affects Hayate, sure she can kill and overwhelm Hayate so he won't be able to fly again who is just important because he grew to be someone dear to her. She doesn't want her song to be a weapon. You said Hayate didn't understand Freyja, but you're wrong here. Mirage didn't understand her either, because Mirage is a soldier. Hayate didn't even know she was lectured by Ominous Trader and what he said but Mirage was right there and she never addressed this once. Furthermore, she cut them off when they were talking. She's projecting her inability to be useful in any way except protecting into them because, IMO, they have the talent she lacks and wishes. She needs to continue doing this to give her a purpose. It's not because she's a selfless soul, it's because she needs to latch on something too.

She's nothing without them. It's not just that Freyja is nothing without song and Hayate is nothing without piloting, they defined her. She'll feel empty unless she's protecting them. At least that's what you can grasp from the scene without making Mirage a complete plot device.

And the war isn't even important in this equation (what war, by the way? Windermere is busy with inner politics and there has been zero changes about the conflict). Do you see Walkure giving a damn about it when they are jeopardizing the whole operation for the love they feel toward a comrade? No? It's the same thing. To them, Mikumo is far more important than the war. And you forgot these 'professionals' equally put Mikumo's life over the war outcome too? Instead of blinding trusting Chaos and prepare for battle, they are breaking out Mikumo without regard for their orders or duties. Maybe they should quit Walkure, huh? Or does your logic only work when the friend is male and the singer is the rival of your pet love interest?

Triple_R: also mentioned something important I forgot to address. Lack of trust within the group is now apparent thanks to Arad withholding information which affected the change of dynamics, specially Kaname, but also the others.

[Darthtabby]

What the heck happened to this show? It was running strong going into the second half, and then its like its got stuck in neutral. I don't mind the occasional slow episode -I actually really liked the stuff with Freyja's birthday -but this section has too many of them.

For all the hate Yoshino gets (much of it for things I'm not sure were actually his fault, but that's another matter) I think he managed Frontier's pacing very well in comparison to whomever is handling Series Composition for Delta. For comparison purposes, Episode 20 of Frontier was "Diamond Crevasse" -probably one of the hardest hitting episodes in the entire series.

At this point I'm kind of hoping the stuff about Delta actually being more than two cours is true -if that's the case, the show might have a chance to recover from this slump. As it stands, I feel like the show I loved so much early on is turning into a disappointment.