Macross Delta - Episode 20 Discussion / Poll

[Ura-dora]

Originally Posted by Arya

Well, while I agree with you about her, she was never meant to lead anything, this show is tailored around Frejya so I suppose she had to be written this way for some reasons. Kinda like Hayate.
On the other hand it's interesting how people associate Mirage with Sheryl (When well Mikumo should be the titular here). Personally I find her the more, if not the only, kinda "realistic" character so despite the lack of writing I could easily relate with her. Apart Messer and Kaname, of course, and that's also the reason I think they are still unforgotten, they were easy to relate with because there was something to latch on.

I agree that Mikumo is the character most similar to Sheryl. They have the same core character traits, however they are their own unique and different characters. The main difference is Sheryls aggressive and vulgar demeanor. This is due to her background and makes sense. While Mikumo on the other hand is passive and elegant. This small detail in characterization is what separates the goddess from the fairy. Sometimes I wonder what kind of triangle Sheryl/Alto/Mikumo would have been for frontier, and Freyja/Hayate/Ranka for Delta.

While I hate Mirage, I do think a lot of people here judge her unfairly. Again a lot of people aren't focusing on what's there, and rather what they think she should be. Mirage is actually really well written. In fact her, along with Mikumo and Kaname are the only characters who have stepped out of the two dimensional realm. All three are close to being three dimensional and realistic.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

Sometimes I wonder what kind of triangle Sheryl/Alto/Mikumo would have been for frontier, and Freyja/Hayate/Ranka for Delta.

To be honest, I believe I'd be fascinated by this choice of swap because of their similarities. And plus, even if I ship Alto and Ranka, I'm not against seeing if Hayate is a better guy for her (anything other than Brera, no incest in my book!).

Give it time and maybe someone will visit these threads and write a fanfic for it, LOL

[Mistyclear]

^ A triangle of beautiful (sorry princess) people with strong personalities (would Alto even make it through being surrounded by the two strong willed women), and a triangle of energetic people (who follow their hearts/dreams).

[ippus]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Honestly, it's true.

Because no idol in the series encouraged me into viewing the series beyond it's prologue episode (nor did the songs aside from Ikenai Borderline, which saved it) because it's introduction did not really deliver for older Macross fans. All I could thinks is: "this boy is in his AKB0048 phase again." And it's abnormal for me because even if I disliked a prior Macross, I loved it's music, and until the final song in Mission 0.89, nothing could save Delta (aside from Freyja).

Only in episode 2 and 3 with Hayate and Freyja building their relationship and chemistry is when Delta soared.

So yes, nothing in Delta's beginning had an impact like Sheryl Nome did in Frontier, especially Walkure. In fact, I remember reading an article where an old-time fan of Macross said he had an opposite response to the "idol group" and said it doesn't "feel like a Macross" because of it. I believe I agree, it is jarring at first...

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

Not to mention that the nature of Twitter makes comprehensive tagging annoying due to the character limit... if they bother to tag at all.

Haha I did mention twitter too before you know, and arguing that things are hard to find because there's a lack of enthusiasm is...pretty much my original point sooooooo LOOOL
On the other hand I've been seeing a lot of Ranka art from my fellow Koreans a few months back

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

While I hate Mirage, I do think a lot of people here judge her unfairly. Again a lot of people aren't focusing on what's there, and rather what they think she should be. Mirage is actually really well written. In fact her, along with Mikumo and Kaname are the only characters who have stepped out of the two dimensional realm. All three are close to being three dimensional and realistic.

Ehhh they would be really boring shows honestly. Triangles are about balance, the rivals need to have things the other lacks to keep things interesting. It's why they often just go with innocent vs experienced as it's the easiest to understand and fight over. Also...Mikumo's entire point is to be really non-human trying to become her own so she would likely not even insert herself into that triangle scenario. On the Frey/Haya/Ranka end, Freya would win, because Ranka isn't aggressive enough to fight with a girl who has 15 years left to live. Hayate also doesn't have a bishounen's face the drive is pretty gone. She'd be friendzoned.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Arya

Now to the real reason I wrote, I was curious about this bit Karice dropped here and never resumed

It was a conscious choice. I'm enjoying the show quite a bit more than most people here seem to be, and part of it has to do with me reading certain characters arcs rather differently from just about everyone here. So after seeing how people reacted to this episode, I decided that the long discussions I would need to convey what I see in terms of Mirage's character probably aren't worth it. I also can't spare the time, really.

Sorry. I guess I should have deleted those first few posts. In any case, pardon me, and do carry on.

[Ura-dora]

Originally Posted by karice67

It was a conscious choice. I'm enjoying the show quite a bit more than most people here seem to be, and part of it has to do with me reading certain characters arcs rather differently from just about everyone here. So after seeing how people reacted to this episode, I decided that the long discussions I would need to convey what I see in terms of Mirage's character probably aren't worth it. I also can't spare the time, really.

Sorry. I guess I should have deleted those first few posts. In any case, pardon me, and do carry on.

I actually think that whenever you get the chance you should state your viewpoint. It will help bring another perspective and help others to acknowledge things they might have not noticed. I'm sure there are also many people who share your viewpoint on Mirage, myself included and I think maybe ippus. Many of the people on here who have issues with Mirage are big Freyja fans and or Freyhaya shippers, and I honestly think their judgment on Mirage is being clouded.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

I actually think that whenever you get the chance you should state your viewpoint. It will help bring another perspective and help others to acknowledge things they might have not noticed. I'm sure there are also many people who share your viewpoint on Mirage, myself included and I think maybe ippus. Many of the people on here who have issues with Mirage are big Freyja fans and or Freyhaya shippers, and I honestly think their judgment on Mirage is being clouded.

Um...as far as I can tell, most of the people ragging on Mirage here are those who were backing her to win the triangle. They wanted her to have certain characteristics and act in certain ways. And that's why they're so disappointed, because she isn't the character they wanted her to be.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by karice67

Um...as far as I can tell, most of the people ragging on Mirage here are those who were backing her to win the triangle. They wanted her to have certain characteristics and act in certain ways. And that's why they're so disappointed, because she isn't the character they wanted her to be.

I am disappointed, because even though billed as a main character, her role in the story is thus far negligible. Its not even about winning or losing, its about substance, and she has none.

I don't even need her to possess certain characteristics, because she already has them, and they just aren't being used by the writers.

- Tak

[Mistyclear]

Originally Posted by karice67

Um...as far as I can tell, most of the people ragging on Mirage here are those who were backing her to win the triangle. They wanted her to have certain characteristics and act in certain ways. And that's why they're so disappointed, because she isn't the character they wanted her to be.

I'd like to hear your opinion as well (and to be honest I don't care who wins the triangle), I just like reading other people's views because they might see things I miss, and so long as the arguments don't go personal and use evidence to back up their claims then I enjoy reading about those views.... It's just when people take it personally that it makes everything far less interesting. You don't tend to actually take things personally so I actually want to hear what you have to say.

[FlamingMangos]

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

I actually think that whenever you get the chance you should state your viewpoint. It will help bring another perspective and help others to acknowledge things they might have not noticed. I'm sure there are also many people who share your viewpoint on Mirage, myself included and I think maybe ippus. Many of the people on here who have issues with Mirage are big Freyja fans and or Freyhaya shippers, and I honestly think their judgment on Mirage is being clouded.

That's absolutely not true that it's only Freyjafags fans or Freyhaya shippers talking negative about her. When you look at Macross world, MAL, 4chan, and 2chu. Literally everyone talks about how she isn't well written. Unless you're telling me they're all freyjafans. Which is not true since a lot of them are Mirage fans themselves. I'm actually surprised at this place how there are Mirage fans standing in place defending her.

[Ura-dora]

Originally Posted by FlamingMangos

That's absolutely not true that it's only Freyjafags fans or Freyhaya shippers talking negative about her. When you look at Macross world, MAL, 4chan, and 2chu. Literally everyone talks about how she isn't well written. Unless you're telling me they're all freyjafans. Which is not true since a lot of them are Mirage fans themselves. I'm actually surprised at this place how there are Mirage fans standing in place defending her.

It's no secret that a lot of people have issues with Mirages character. What I was trying to imply by my statement is that fans of Freyja/Freyhaya are more inclined to point out the flaws of Mirage. While the fans of Mirage will defend her. Mirage actually isn't a badly written character as some people like to proclaim. One of the biggest issues of Mirage actually has is her constant comparison to Freyja (which is unavoidable since triangle), and most importantly her status as a main character. If you stripped Mirage of those two factors and analyzed her for what she is, people who doubt her would realize that she has an essential role to the show. At the end of the day Mirage is not directly apart of the plot, only involved. It was a bad choice by the staff to label her as a main, because while she is essential to the love triangle, it should have been done as a secondary. The love triangle triangle is complimentary to the plot, but it's not the plot.

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

Sometimes I wonder what kind of triangle Sheryl/Alto/Mikumo would have been for frontier, and Freyja/Hayate/Ranka for Delta.

I don't think that'll work. Mikumo might be more interested on Sheryl than Alto because her whole music-fixation and she's really not going to empathize with him. Sheryl and Alto bonded over their issues, thoughts about home, a passion of stage. While Mikumo is a passionate professional, I don't think it's because of the 'stage-fever' that Alto and Sheryl shared, plus she's pretty awkward in general with human interaction. I can't even imagine her understanding what romantic love is to surpass Sheryl.

Ranka, Freyja and Hayate would be similar to the current triangle, with Ranka moping at the distance as Mirage, but lacking the connection Mirage possibly has because she was Hayate's instructor and uh, pilot stuff? It's a bad idea because Ranka is an introvert person and Freyja is, when she's not having a huge life dilemma, an extrovert one who will easily overshadow her.

Originally Posted by karice67

Um...as far as I can tell, most of the people ragging on Mirage here are those who were backing her to win the triangle. They wanted her to have certain characteristics and act in certain ways. And that's why they're so disappointed, because she isn't the character they wanted her to be.

I'm transparent. But I was willing to give her another chance after episodes 12-13, then the second half writing and direction of the character was just too bad for me to take. Of course, I do like Freyja a lot, but started the show predisposed to make Mirage (and Mikumo) my favorite girls and having a bias against Freyja because of her design, but it turns out that the show made me love Kaname and Freyja (though I too like Mikumo).

Edit: I do like her in the novel, which fixes most of my grievances against her show portrayal.

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Ura-dora

While I hate Mirage, I do think a lot of people here judge her unfairly. Again a lot of people aren't focusing on what's there, and rather what they think she should be. Mirage is actually really well written. In fact her, along with Mikumo and Kaname are the only characters who have stepped out of the two dimensional realm. All three are close to being three dimensional and realistic.

I agree, and about Mikumo I didn't mention her mostly due to her very likely non-human nature that sets her apart so while well written I don't exactly consider her realistic strictly speaking for her intrinsic nature. And for the same reason is not a critic either.
Oh, and I also don't think that switching the triangles would be a good idea. To similar characters to make the triangles work without a very good writing.

Originally Posted by karice67

It was a conscious choice. I'm enjoying the show quite a bit more than most people here seem to be, and part of it has to do with me reading certain characters arcs rather differently from just about everyone here. So after seeing how people reacted to this episode, I decided that the long discussions I would need to convey what I see in terms of Mirage's character probably aren't worth it. I also can't spare the time, really.

Sorry. I guess I should have deleted those first few posts. In any case, pardon me, and do carry on.

And that was the reason I brought your post up, but I respect your choice of course. I kinda already knew, but I gave it a try anyways

About Mirage raging waves I'm more with Ura-dora, that's why I think ippus stepped in such a way. But in any case I always thought the criticism she has been having is excessive considering her evident lack of presence as a character, a main character, but well, time will tell.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tak

I am disappointed, because even though billed as a main character, her role in the story is thus far negligible. Its not even about winning or losing, its about substance, and she has none.

I don't even need her to possess certain characteristics, because she already has them, and they just aren't being used by the writers.

- Tak

I agree on this.

Again, I liked Mirage in the beginning when her character was originally introduced. However, gradually, all those personality traits did nothing for her character story. Her role is never outlined in black and white, her character arc is non-existent, and her purpose is only for the love triangle itself. All of this is fine if she was a side character who is developed on the sidelines; however, as said by fans all over, she is shined on as a main character. And, even as Thess continues to insist her novel self is better, if she is not showing those traits in the anime (which is where her biggest issues come up), then it's not a proper argument.

Originally Posted by Thess

Mikumo might be more interested on Sheryl than Alto because her whole music-fixation and she's really not going to empathize with him.

I don't know; Alto might show an interest in Mikumo once he is a pilot (because of Sheryl) and Mikumo is his responsibility (protecting her like Delta does). And, eventually, if Alto pursues her off duty like Freyja does in the series, her social issues might vanish (or be easier to overcome).

Then again, I believe a love triangle between Sheryl/Alto/Mirage is pointless because Mirage is closer to Ranka in terms of understanding love than Sheryl is. So I believe Mirage would either lose by default or need one hell of an up in the beginning (she could be his ace pilot/instructor?).

Originally Posted by Thess

Ranka, Freyja and Hayate would be similar to the current triangle, with Ranka moping at the distance as Mirage, but lacking the connection Mirage possibly has because she was Hayate's instructor and uh, pilot stuff? It's a bad idea because Ranka is an introvert person and Freyja is, when she's not having a huge life dilemma, an extrovert one who will easily overshadow her.

Um, Freyja is more into her music than romance (especially in the series' beginning) and even if she is "aggressive," it's more about music than love. Ranka and Freyja share characteristics of knowing they're in love and not knowing to express it properly (especially for Ranka). However, in a love triangle like Freyja/Hayate/Ranka, the defining key would then be which girl he likes more/interacts with on a comfortable level. And yes, Freyja could win in said triangle because her interaction with Hayate is borderline marriage material (meaning they're super comfortable with each other); however, Ranka does have qualities which Hayate might consider, as she is shy and fun for him to tease, and he'll more than likely jump onto her hardship traits like he did Freyja.

The love triangles could easily swap characters and create an infinitely more interesting love triangle than this one we have right now.

[Thess]

Spoiler for off topic what if:

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I don't know; Alto might show an interest in Mikumo once he is a pilot (because of Sheryl) and Mikumo is his responsibility (protecting her like Delta does). And, eventually, if Alto pursues her off duty like Freyja does in the series, her social issues might vanish (or be easier to overcome).

This is all a what if. But Alto was attracted to Sheryl because of her playful personality which brought him out his shell, but also the contrast of her weakness and her serious professional persona. It just clicked with him, she also encouraged him (and Ranka) to pursue his dream. Mikumo is a little 'inhuman' to make this impression, when she finally warms up, it'll be too late IMO. He can play a role, like he did with Ranka (he acted a role, he didn't feel it and was called out his actions), but Alto bonded with Sheryl about the matter of home, how Sheryl made him think over the meaning of this and such. I think it was in episodes 5-6, Sheryl had it in a bag because it covered two parts: the sexual/romantic attraction and how she made him rethink about what truly matters (home). Her arc was wrapped with his family and personal issues, making him return to his stranged family.

I can't imagine Mikumo speaking of anything except music for 20 episodes or so. I can seee Alto respecting her but not loving her at all.

And of course movie scenario, they were fated as children and gave each other their dreams, so there isn't even a triangle.

Then again, I believe a love triangle between Sheryl/Alto/Mirage is pointless because Mirage is closer to Ranka in terms of understanding love than Sheryl is. So I believe Mirage would either lose by default or need one hell of an up in the beginning (she could be his ace pilot/instructor?).

While she has some Ranka-lite traits about moping and being a third wheel. Mirage, unlike Ranka, actually tried to confront Hayate about his issues or talk about them. True, she had to step into a scene with Freyja, but that gives her slightly an edge over Ranka. Ranka never quite 'bonded' with Alto, IMO. Or learned his personal issues (until episode 21 ). Their relationship was based on a role that Alto played because he's an actor to feel validated about his choice. And Ranka's false misconceptions about why he was playing this role and her feelings for Brera which she transferred to Alto (biggest hint should have been episode 20 where she overlaps them).

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Um, Freyja is more into her music than romance (especially in the series' beginning) and even if she is "aggressive," it's more about music than love.

I never said Freyja was focused in romance at all. That came after episode 8.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by Arya

About Mirage raging waves I'm more with Ura-dora, that's why I think ippus stepped in such a way. But in any case I always thought the criticism she has been having is excessive considering her evident lack of presence as a character, a main character, but well, time will tell.

-Shrug-
I had similar feelings that Mirage was being underplayed early on in the show but I liked her anyway cus...I just liked her feel? Because I was getting sick of the whole Haya/Frey parade week after week I took a break.

By the time I got back for I think 18? I had binge watched like...5 episodes to catch up to everyone and seeing them back to back, and having read all the criticisms prior I ended up watching things with a more refreshed perspective.

Again I'm not touting her to be the next Sheryl Nome, she's not meant to be like...mind blowing and way paving, but for what she does and the arc she has...? I actually have no problems with how she's being written and honestly she's my favourite next to Kumokumo. The rest of the Walkures are really growing on me too. I'm pretty much on the same boat as what Mikumo's seiyuu said...Mirage's the kind of girl where like...if I had a little sister like her I'd absolutely never leave her alone cus I mean she's so serious, and tries so hard and has so much trouble it's like...I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE ABOUT THAT (Iwanttowatchyoustruggleforever...preferablydressed insomethingcuteandfrilly;;;I'mahorribleneechanIkno w) but to each his own.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by ippus

I'm pretty much on the same boat as what Mikumo's seiyuu said...Mirage's the kind of girl where like...if I had a little sister like her I'd absolutely never leave her alone cus I mean she's so serious, and tries so hard and has so much trouble it's like...I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT'S NOT TO LIKE ABOUT THAT (Iwanttowatchyoustruggleforever...preferablydressed insomethingcuteandfrilly;;;I'mahorribleneechanIkno w) but to each his own.

My interpretation of her character isn't quite the same as yours, but to add one little comment to this: what I find most interesting to think about is that Mirage herself knows that she is not special...

[HirouKeimou]

Moved our "what if" discussion to the General Discussion thread because it's off-topic in the currently airing episode thread.

On topic: Mirage is a character I believe who will go down in history as a badly executed character (in her anime role) once this series ends. Her beginning is nice and her fall from grace is one hell of a skid on the concrete. Especially if her role in the love triangle falls after this episode. I mean, this girl has more roles she does not fit than Guilty Crown had failures.

[ippus]

Originally Posted by karice67

My interpretation of her character isn't quite the same as yours, but to add one little comment to this: what I find most interesting to think about is that Mirage herself knows that she is not special...

Hmm I agree with that.
By that comment...I think to some degree we see Mirage under a similar light it's just that again, I'm quite attached to her hahaha

[dmaxzero]

I like Mirage design and feel. And When the show started I was hoping to see her develop and become a substantial character. But got none of that. I cant hate a fictional character, but I can be very disappointed on the use a character has in a story and here she was sidelined heavily, even though being portrayed as part of the main cast, main triangle.

All in all, this one the weakest Macross shows ever in many other aspects than just the Mirage issue. For me and in my opinion, of course.