Rwby

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

As far as Sun goes, having watched the episode -- Well, I could see being annoyed if the narrative had tacitly supported what he did or tried to frame him as right, but the narrative consistently checks him, and it's consistently framed as a well-meaning if kind of stupid mistake.

I would much rather have 'characters who sometimes fuck up' than 'characters who always do the right thing all the time always.'

I can only hope the show is aware of what they are writing.

Sun checked almost every single check in common stalker traits this episode.
He not only managed to stalk Blake, USE HER AS A LANDING PLATFORM(as in literally disrespectfully treating her as an object), but he also:

1. Tried to deflect the topic at hand by catcalling on her looks
2. showed no remorse for what he did. In fact he looked ANGRY that she did NOT show gratitude nor was happy to see him(ex his mocking "yes mam~" line).
3. admitted stalking her for six months, which would trigger her anxiety issues. Do you know how HORRIFYING it is for stalker victims or abuse victims to feel like they are being watched?
4. showed completely zero understanding about Blake's motivation or emotional issues
5. implied multiple times that Blake can't possibly do things on her own or needs protection FROM HIM

No wonder that Blake is shown being either completely irritated, in disbelief or outright angry for most of the episode.

And I'm given to wonder if Dresden would see it the same way if it was Yang doing this instead of Sun.

First of all Yang would never do taht as what was done is character assassination EVEN FOR SUN who already was shown being okay lurking by girl windows without them knowing.

This drew parallels not only to Adam restricting Blake's agency but also to one of the worst parts of RWBY - Jaune's harassment of Weiss. This is something offensive for everyone, even sun fans.

Also Yang is Blake's TEAM MATE. One of team mates that Blake PROMISED to talk things through instead of running away. Unlike Sun, Blake OWES them an explanation.

However even then nobody has a right to shame Blake for dealing with psychological trauma the way she is dealing with it.

[DMurphy]

'Yang would never do that' is an easy way to get around the fact that no, no you wouldn't be saying the same thing if it was Yang. It's obvious to everyone that you wouldn't.

You wouldn't because, as far as I can tell, your concern in things like queerbaiting, LGBT rights, the psychology and sociology of abuse, and so on down the list of many worthy topics -- extends only so far as it has to for you to use actually very important things with a very tangible impact as a cudgel with which to batter anything that even goes a little against your preferred ship.

Also, as far as the show being aware, they literally showed Blake slapping him and explaining to him in no uncertain terms just how wrong he was and how angry she was with him. They fairly definitively showed that, no, Sun did screw up, even if he was well-meaning. Narrative checking a character: It's a thing.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

And frankly IDK, the Chapter 1 fight felt all good. Its just this single fight that so far was just eh.

The fight scenes in Chapter 1 were mostly on the ground. It's the acrobatics that they seem to be having trouble with.

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

In fact he looked ANGRY that she did NOT show gratitude nor was happy to see him(ex his mocking "yes mam~" line).

I agree with everything else you wrote except this. He didn't come across as angry to me.

[RPG_Fanatic]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

Seriously? Seriously?

Wikipedia on Romantic Orientations

Thanks for the link. My non family/friend relationship experience is literally zero, so these are the kinds of terms I just haven't encounter before.

Episode 3:

Well, that was slightly different then what I was expecting from the opening. I thought that after Blake ran off, Sun followed and actually talked to her and joined her group proper, not stalked her form the shadows for months. I think Sun out Jauned Jaune in terms of awkward flirting and quips in battle.

While what Sun did was wrong, I am glad there is someone there to watch Blake's back. She doesn't have to shoulder everything alone. Asking for help does not make someone weak or less independent.

I agree the fight was weird in terms of physics and how Blake and Sun flew through the air. The finish was decent at least.

Yeah, we get to see a bit of how much Adam's return has affected Blake. Seeing her so jumpy makes me wonder how Sun was never caught sooner. The captain seemed nice. Checked on Blake to see how she was doing, but backed off when it was clear he was not going to get her to open up to him.

Yang is also doing pretty bad. I have to wonder what means Taiyang used to contact Ironwood with the CCT network down. It was nice of him to build a new arm for her, regardless of whether she uses it or not.

Then we have Salem again. So Ozpin has some kind of relic that Salem needs, I wonder what it could be. If it is part of the cane, or the cane itself, she is out of luck searching Beacon. There are also creepy jellyfish Grimm to send messages. If the good guys figure that out, they could disrupt Salem's communication network.

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by Endscape

The fight scenes in Chapter 1 were mostly on the ground. It's the acrobatics that they seem to be having trouble with.

Eh it had float-y moments. But Ruby's semblance allows her to be float-y.

In here it felt like none of characters have any weight and physics do not exist.

I agree with everything else you wrote except this. He didn't come across as angry to me.

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There are not that many ways to interpret how he looks here right after she goes "just shut up and fight". Its either displeasure, anger or anything between that.

[Mach56gs]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

Yeah that fight was just weird and had no weight to it. Felt like characters are floaty balloon animals or something.


In ever relevant words of Brooklyn Nine Nine:
Cool Motive. Still Murder.

Sun having "reasons"(most of which even prove that he does not get Blake and thinks that she can't handle things by herself) does not excuse him stalking an abuse victim for six months.

Just because somebody is NICE, does not mean their actions should be viewed differently.

Good point - but I feel that brings up a more interesting issue.

Surely Blake wasn't on this boat for half a year, right? The captain made the boat trip seem like it had just started - so maybe while RNJR and other characters are in the present - Blake's storyline is actually in the past. It's plausible and makes sense: Blake wouldn't spend 5 months dorking around in Vale when she clearly wants to escape to Menagerie: the first thing she would have done was to get onto that ship.

If that's the case, I doubt that Sun was stalking Blake for 6 months. I feel like he tracked her down to the vessel and jumped on - that's it. Maybe a week of trailing (still bad, but not 6 months).

Of course his behavior on the boat was just needlessly stupid and dramatic and just a way for M/K to highlight Blake's paranoid state of being. I don't have a high suspension of disbelief - I don't think Sun's a wacko to trail someone for such a long period of time (6 months!?!?!). He's no Adam.


As for the rest of your points, it's a manner of interpretation. Sun is an opposite of Blake - rambunctious and dynamic. Of course he's abrasive to her but she needs that sort of annoyance.

His stupid presence gives her reason to react, interact and practice self-assertion. If you're going to hate on Sun, maybe you should see that he's the perfect way for Blake to prepare to deal with Adam and the rest of the problems she'll deal with. Sun is stupid and does all of the wrong moves, but at least he's harmless in character. Adam is not. Blake will learn from her interactions with Sun to deal with the massive arse Adam is. Consider it a training exercise.

So you should be happy Sun is there - he's a perfect avenue for Blake to grow and strengthen as a person. Yang might have done just as well, sure, but that's not how the story played out. The partners will have their reunion, don't fret, but I think it's great for Blake to learn to deal with things on her own. Sun isn't there to help her and hold her hand through things - instead, he'll be the "problem" that Blake will solve and grow from.

[Dengar]

The projection is real. XD

[DMurphy]

As far as Blake and Sun both being on the boat for six months, I'm pretty sure that's not possible -- I mean, I think it is in the present, but it does seem that the boat journey just started.

What seems more likely is that Blake escaped Vale and has been alternating between walking and making short hops on airships, and Sun either just wasn't able to find her until now, or he had to make sure the rest of Team SSSN were on their way back to Mistral first.

[RDNexus]

Originally Posted by Mach56gs

Good point - but I feel that brings up a more interesting issue.

Surely Blake wasn't on this boat for half a year, right? The captain made the boat trip seem like it had just started - so maybe while RNJR and other characters are in the present - Blake's storyline is actually in the past. It's plausible and makes sense: Blake wouldn't spend 5 months dorking around in Vale when she clearly wants to escape to Menagerie: the first thing she would have done was to get onto that ship.

If that's the case, I doubt that Sun was stalking Blake for 6 months. I feel like he tracked her down to the vessel and jumped on - that's it. Maybe a week of trailing (still bad, but not 6 months).

Of course his behavior on the boat was just needlessly stupid and dramatic and just a way for M/K to highlight Blake's paranoid state of being. I don't have a high suspension of disbelief - I don't think Sun's a wacko to trail someone for such a long period of time (6 months!?!?!). He's no Adam.


As for the rest of your points, it's a manner of interpretation. Sun is an opposite of Blake - rambunctious and dynamic. Of course he's abrasive to her but she needs that sort of annoyance.

His stupid presence gives her reason to react, interact and practice self-assertion. If you're going to hate on Sun, maybe you should see that he's the perfect way for Blake to prepare to deal with Adam. Sun is stupid and does all of the wrong moves, but at least he's harmless in character. Adam is not. Blake will learn from her interactions with Sun to deal with the massive arse Adam is.

So you should be happy Sun is there - he's a perfect avenue for Blake to grow.

Those sure are some good points...and would make Sun look a little bit less negative as a character. But still stupid enough to make us crack a laugh

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by Mach56gs

Good point - but I feel that brings up a more interesting issue.

Surely Blake wasn't on this boat for half a year, right? The captain made the boat trip seem like it had just started - so maybe while RNJR and other characters are in the present - Blake's storyline is actually in the past. It's plausible and makes sense: Blake wouldn't spend 5 months dorking around in Vale when she clearly wants to escape to Menagerie: the first thing she would have done was to get onto that ship.

If that's the case, I doubt that Sun was stalking Blake for 6 months. I feel like he tracked her down to the vessel and jumped on - that's it. Maybe a week of trailing (still bad, but not 6 months).

Of course his behavior on the boat was just needlessly stupid and dramatic and just a way for M/K to highlight Blake's paranoid state of being. I don't have a high suspension of disbelief - I don't think Sun's a wacko to trail someone for such a long period of time (6 months!?!?!). He's no Adam.

He literally listed what Blake did right after the fall of Beacon. He pretty much stalked her before even she got onto boat. That makes him abandoning his team even worse.

And I would have agreed that he is no Adam, but the show is hellbent on drawing parallels between how both of those people handled Blake. My current ongoing theory is that the archetype of Gaston is split between Adam and Sun.

Gaston has always been two-faced character in Beauty and the Beast - chivalrious white knight in shining armor who subtly treats women as weaker and disregards their emotions or strength, yet in the end tuns into abusive posessive murderer.

What if the Sun represents the first half and Adam the second?

As for the rest of your points, it's a manner of interpretation. Sun is an opposite of Blake - rambunctious and dynamic. Of course he's abrasive to her but she needs that sort of annoyance.

With all due respect no she does not.

She does not need someone who disrespects her agency when her whole point of her journey is REGAINING the agency Adam took away from her.

She does not need somebody STALKING her when she is running away from an obsessive abusive ex-bf.

His stupid presence gives her reason to react, interact and practice self-assertion. If you're going to hate on Sun, maybe you should see that he's the perfect way for Blake to prepare to deal with Adam. Sun is stupid and does all of the wrong moves, but at least he's harmless in character. Adam is not. Blake will learn from her interactions with Sun to deal with the massive arse Adam is.

Except he is not. Unless she rejects him and actually manages to deal with him, it is just repeating history.

He brings conflict, anxiety, disgust for her. The episode makes it a point to show Blake in utter disbelief at Sun's disregard of her agency.

So you should be happy Sun is there - he's a perfect avenue for Blake to grow and strengthen as a person.

And here I thought he was here because we NEED straight element in Blake's story lest it looks like Blake and Yang are thinking about each other

Either way I hope the writers are aware of how they wrote Sun here and he indeed is used as a way for Blake to practice rejecting clingy obsessive people, as a sort of first step before facing a far worse "gaston" in Adam.


I am frankly alternating between Sun just being oblivious dudebro niceguy who does not understand when you say NO to him and Sun being white fang spy.


At least the latter would still make sense without making Sun denser than a neutron star. And would explain a LOT of his shady behavior, uselessness and other things(like stalking Blake). The perfect way to have that would be Blake realizing that and Sun willingly spilling beans about WF possibly going after Yang(which is common ongoing theory), so Blake goes back to Patch only to find Yang already left after the attack, setting up the eventual reunion that way. Maybe even reunites with Weiss who escaped Atlas and the two of them seek out Ruby with Yang being last to be found.

[Dengar]

Aaaaand we're back to queerbaiting, despite having concluded that it's pointless to discuss this. >_< I wonder if there's a different forum where people aren't being so self righteous about everything.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Oh, we are back to this topic.

Guess its back persecuting someone based off personal bias and trying to frame a character in a negative bias because it goes against a specific ship.

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Oh, we are back to this topic.

Guess its back persecuting someone based off personal bias and trying to frame a character in a negative bias because it goes against a specific ship.

Or maybe just maybe it is legitimate ongoing problem with current entertainment media and being reductive about the the issue serves nothing good?

Not to mention as I outlined in the post, Sun's purpose of existing is least of problems surrounding his writing right now. Sun being solely a character existing for romantic interaction is start of problems surrounding his writing but right now the problems surrounding his writing exist even without that.

And the question is how the show is going to solve the very questionable way they wrote him this episode. They can't be that blind not to notice that, I mean, you cant write character being so dismissive of someone's agency unintentionally.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

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There are not that many ways to interpret how he looks here right after she goes "just shut up and fight". Its either displeasure, anger or anything between that.

Looked more like exasperation to me.

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

And here I thought he was here because we NEED straight element in Blake's story lest it looks like Blake and Yang are thinking about each other

Considering the crappy way Sun acted this episode, and Blake's obvious negative reaction to it, I wonder if it the writers are trying to kill Blake/Sun ship.

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Guess its back persecuting someone based off personal bias and trying to frame a character in a negative bias because it goes against a specific ship.

Sun's behaviour was clearly pretty crapy this episode, no escaping that.

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Considering the crappy way Sun acted this episode, and Blake's obvious negative reaction to it, I wonder if it the writers are trying to kill Blake/Sun ship.

See, I certainly HOPE that writers are aware of what they wrote here and don't see it as there being nothing wrong with Sun's behavior here.

The idea of having to "kill" the ship is also strange to me. We did not need Jaune becoming absolute jackass to Weiss to phase it away. He just stopped(And even then plenty of people would say he went too far already) and this is way beyond Jaune's antics(albeitvery clearly in same vein. Even with repeated "My Hero" gag from Jaune/Weiss nonsense).
Sun/Blake was already on it's way out in Vol3 with pretty much zero screen time or interactions, so it would have been easy to just write it off as a crush that disappeared. The fact that the focus point of Fall of beacon was Blake and YANG facing Adam while Sun was reduced to shouting some lines at Ruby being an idiot is already pretty telling. IF they wanted to kill the pairing idea, they did not need a whole plotline for that already. Dragging it out to do it now is baffling.

Right now I frankly have no idea where the writers are going with Sun's character. Even for Sun this was way over the line and Blake SEEMS to be reacting accordingly so narrative MIGHT be aware of how over the line the behavior was(I mean the whole point of Blake's journey is to get away from Adam who took away her agency and freedom and now we have Sun very clearly disrespecting her agency and freedom). I mean Sun literally kept on digging and digging that hole through episode and Blake's last "I can't believe this" at Sun did not sound in anyway positive.

But there's always doubts. I mean this episode DID have that bad taste "Oh Blakey's just paranoid" kind of implication from the ship Captain when the way Blake behaved is VERY in line with abuse or stalker victims.

It remains to be seen. Just like before the writers are walking VERY thin line with Blake plot, one that they did not necessarily even need to walk.
IF writers genuinely somehow think that what happened her was okay or romantic or nice, then that will be very unfortunate indeed.

Another worst case scenario Writers could ever pull would be killing Sun off though. Because that would absolutely destroy any sort of Blake/Yang interactions AND would essentially erase any potential Sun has as a character by literally making him having existed solely for romance. If they are going to "kill" Blake/Sun ship, do it by choice, not by character death. Because no matter whom Blake falls for afterward would automatically be "second choice" and have to bear the anger of Sun's fanbase.

[Mach56gs]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

He literally listed what Blake did right after the fall of Beacon. He pretty much stalked her before even she got onto boat. That makes him abandoning his team even worse.

And I would have agreed that he is no Adam, but the show is hellbent on drawing parallels between how both of those people handled Blake. My current ongoing theory is that the archetype of Gaston is split between Adam and Sun.

Gaston has always been two-faced character in Beauty and the Beast - chivalrious white knight in shining armor who subtly treats women as weaker and disregards their emotions or strength, yet in the end tuns into abusive posessive murderer.

What if the Sun represents the first half and Adam the second?

With all due respect no she does not.

She does not need someone who disrespects her agency when her whole point of her journey is REGAINING the agency Adam took away from her.

She does not need somebody STALKING her when she is running away from an obsessive abusive ex-bf.



Except he is not. Unless she rejects him and actually manages to deal with him, it is just repeating history.

He brings conflict, anxiety, disgust for her. The episode makes it a point to show Blake in utter disbelief at Sun's disregard of her agency.



And here I thought he was here because we NEED straight element in Blake's story lest it looks like Blake and Yang are thinking about each other

Either way I hope the writers are aware of how they wrote Sun here and he indeed is used as a way for Blake to practice rejecting clingy obsessive people, as a sort of first step before facing a far worse "gaston" in Adam.


I am frankly alternating between Sun just being oblivious dudebro niceguy who does not understand when you say NO to him and Sun being white fang spy.


At least the latter would still make sense without making Sun denser than a neutron star. And would explain a LOT of his shady behavior, uselessness and other things(like stalking Blake). The perfect way to have that would be Blake realizing that and Sun willingly spilling beans about WF possibly going after Yang(which is common ongoing theory), so Blake goes back to Patch only to find Yang already left after the attack, setting up the eventual reunion that way. Maybe even reunites with Weiss who escaped Atlas and the two of them seek out Ruby with Yang being last to be found.

Sun is clearly dense and whatever negativity you see in Chapter 3 are signs that he's learning about that density and that he's made a couple of big nonos.

Would you be happy if you did things for a friend only to realize that they've made things worse? Obviously not. Some people are quick to apologize, but Sun isn't those sort. He's more of the sort that tries to salvage his stupid, zany actions. It's not going to work, as we can see in the opening.

I disagree Sun is useless. He did help Blake in Volume 2 and knocked around some White Fang people. He's just hopelessly bad at curbing his enthusiasm.

His actions disrespect Blake's "agency", sure, but that's the only way Blake is going to learn how to assert her agency. Which she doesn't, ever: her story isn't to regain agency, it's to learn how to defend it. Either something works or she runs away: It's one of the key 'problems' of her character.

So for the longest time Blake was a loner and very impressionable and dependent, illustrated by Adam's grip on her and how it's made her a paranoid mess. Sun is just a way for her to assert herself for once, and gain experience and confidence.

Previously Sun did none of that to her - and no he does not give her anxiety/disgust - I have no idea where you get Blake hates Sun... and I feel you're making mountains out of mole-hills here.

It's clear that he's obviously a frustration to her at the moment, obviously, but I don't think Blake thinks of Sun as some sort of enemy or threat. But you're right, he is creating conflict for Blake, and it's the kinda that she will grow from, gain strength and prepare for actual monsters.

Let's be clear here: Sun is not anywhere near the scale of "bad" that Adam, Salem, and the rest of the evil cast is - actual murders. Sure he's imperfect, he's a problem at the moment and he's been shown to be inconsiderate and stalker-y, but that doesn't mean we remove him from RWBY's circle of friends.

The Gaston comparison is strained because in his words, he thinks they'd be taking on the White Fang as a duo. He didn't say Blake needed protection, only that she would need help: There isn't anything patronizing about that. Help itself isn't a demeaning thing. Neither is catching someone.

It's the stupid flirtations that show Sun isn't taking things nearly seriously enough - and thinks that Blake will somehow reciprocate those flirtations. Such banal idealism. She's obviously not in the mood for it. He's caught in ideals and needs a dose of reality.

And no way he turns out to be a White fang spy - that would be some of the dumbest writing I've ever seen. Writers have repeatedly made it clear to us that he's against the White Fang - to reverse it would be contradictory.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Harry Dresden

But there's always doubts. I mean this episode DID have that bad taste "Oh Blakey's just paranoid" kind of implication from the ship Captain when the way Blake behaved is VERY in line with abuse or stalker victims.

I think I'm starting to get it. Ruby's alleged ptsd, and now suddenly Blake is a stalking victim... Are you even capable of viewing girls in anything other than a victim role, despite the fact that most of the asskicking in this story is done by said girls?

[Harry Dresden]

I find it interesting that Dengar seems to not see A LOT of things.

Figuring out the effect Adam's abusive behavior has on Blake is not rocket science. Neither is the idea of him hunting her down and promising to kill everyone she loves. Adam is abuser and stalker rolled into one and there's no denying that. Nor there' s no denying in fact that just like with Yang's symptoms, Blake displays textbook symptoms of someone who is feeling after-effects of abusive/stalker relationship like she had with Adam. Like it is LITERALLY textbook.

As there's no denying the fact that all four girls are facing quite dark psychological problems(which again RT already said they will back at RTX and NYCC already).

• Ruby most likely has PTSD but is in state of denial and represses dealing with what she experienced pretending she is fine. Which makes sense as escapism always was big focus of her story, so now this leading to her having to acknowledge her issues would make sense. That will also most likely lead to full flashback to what she did to Cinder and possibility of Ruby losing an eye if the foreshadowing with Tyrion's lines is to be believed.
• Weiss story is all about having to stand up against years upon years of emotional and physical abuse from her father and break free from his psychological manipulations.
• Blake has to deal with stalker victim symptoms caused by Adam's reappearance and damage he did to her life, as well as whatever Sun's plot ends up being
• Yang has to deal with PTSD from the trauma she suffered as well as years upon years of abandonment and self worth issues(its already touched upon this episode with her reaction to Taiyang bringing her the arm as while he does not realize, Taiyang is "hurrying her to get better" so to say and Yang is uncomfortable with that).

Actually as someone on tumblr pointed out all four girls display different variations and traits of PTSD in a way, rising from different kinds of causes(Abusive boyfriend leading to psychological trauma, abusive childhood, traumatic events that were experienced, disability due to trauma and so on)

[DMurphy]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I think I'm starting to get it. Ruby's alleged ptsd, and now suddenly Blake is a stalking victim... Are you even capable of viewing girls in anything other than a victim role, despite the fact that most of the asskicking in this story is done by said girls?

In fairness, while I don't buy that Blake is being stalked by Sun (the idea is just kind of absurd), I think you can make a pretty good case for Ruby having PTSD. You can make a pretty good case for her not having it, as well, but for now I think that is down to audience interpretation.

(Actually, it's even more down to audience interpretation after this week's episode, since Blake and Yang show much more archetypal symptoms of PTSD.)

[Harry Dresden]

Originally Posted by DMurphy

(Actually, it's even more down to audience interpretation after this week's episode, since Blake and Yang show much more archetypal symptoms of PTSD.)

Well not really. Blake and Yang are not pretending to be fine. They can't.

The show made a point on how Ruby is emulating Yang(before fall of beacon) and not dealing with her problems by appearing to be "strong reliable one" to the rest of team JN_R, even the OP song highlights that. So if she is trying to escape dealing with it and tries her hardest to pretend she is fine she would display it differently than let's say Yang.