Dungeon Defense

[The Green One]

Having future knowledge doesn't help much if you don't have the cunning, intellect, and adaptability to adjust to an ever changing ever flowing situation. Dantalion has to be able to plan out the details of his plans to take advantage of his future knowledge.

[wuhugm]

^^^^
^^^
Exactly

^^
^
......................What?
That's what we've been talking about all along!
We were never shown how he's using the cards! It's suddenly Straight Flush all of a sudden!
We didn't know there's a problem in the first place, and suddenly BOOM, Super Plague, oh, no worries, already mass produced the cure! The fuck...
And that Black Death thing is still very relevant till now
Infinite money is from Black Death, chaotic masses is from Black Death, war is from Black Death
The fuck...

Why didn't you let the readers think with you!!!?
What's the point in bringing in a problem while at the same time giving the final solution!??
Author, you are not right in the head!

[El Rue]

Mmm, It is mostly presented by jumping around & only on "relevant" scenes in 1st person by various characters leaving much to be desired but I'm mostly ok with how the story is being told.

I mean sure it would be better if the author actually showed more background details & such to further enforce plot or characterization like a few scenes with a narrator on certain parts giving additional world lore or extra details like just how did a certain witch manage to crawl herself back & get rescued rather than suddenly appearing with him bruised but dandy.

Lots are just mostly implied but it kinda' fits his personality seeing how theatrical he is as he's "giving a show" & he does seem to be the kind to gloat & monologue when he's already won (like good villains should).

And yes, when you stop & think back about it after a while, the cracks in the story are indeed visible here & there but again it kinda' fits, its like a conman selling you a "brand new, perfectly functional" car.

[dragon1412]

The flaw is mostly hidden by the unique story telling and how the author jump from one person POV to the next. When you are reading multiple POV of a certain incidents, you think less about the incidents itself since all the POV with different view point exposed it. But when you think about it clearly, both the black death and the black herb are coming from nowhere. He said to loan it and after he got the loan we'd get to know about the black death and herb, and it's only after we met Idvar we'd know about the multiple body.

[Sizaki]

We learned beforehand that Ivar got multiple bodies, but it was a hidden fact that the old vampire man body wasn't the real one either. It was something we could theorize before he was exposed by Dantalian...
.
.
.
... I think.

[tot002]

I have some questions.

I have read vol 1 and half of vol 2, so i don't know anything about later events. There are some plots that I want to know. About black death making money of Dantalian, there should be more humans still alive thanks to the cures. Did that effect the story in any ways?

Second, Dantalian also should be the most hated demon. Because, even if humans didn't come to conclusion that Dantalian not cause black death, he somehow knew the cure for it. And he gathered all the cure then sold them for high price. The ones who got crewed up the most were peasants and poor people. They didn't have money to offer the cures. So, humans(or poor peasants) had the most reasons to hate Dantalian. Did the story talk about that? Or somehow, humans didn't even know who sold only cure for black death?

After thinking more about this story, I feel it has a lots plot holes and plot convenient for MC.

[gn_X00]

^
that affect the story greatly you know~

like... until the most recent volume and the next

[cadu_]

Actually Dantalian saved many lives, it was supposed to take years to discover the cure and many more should have died during that time, even if Dantanlian monopolized the cure, the cure was discovered much sooner because of him.

[rantaid]

Well if you want nitpicking.... if the black death plague's cure was supposed to be unknown, then how could everyone knows (believe) that the worthless herbs which Dantalian cunningly monopolize is the effective cure?

in my opinion, Dantalian just Martin Shkrelli-ed everyone.

[wuhugm]

^Indeed

Severely lacking details man... Been saying that many times so I'm not going to repeat myself...

[tot002]

Well, my points were that many poor peasants would hate Dantalian. Because I bet many didn't have money to offer the cure and died. Of course, many people lived, but Dantalian had no intent to save human's lives. He wanted to make money. For peasants, Dantalian was no difference from nobles, trying to exploit them. So, peasants would not help or listen to him, or even attack him if have the chance. I think it will be a plot convenient if Dantalian didn't face any those problems.

[wuhugm]

Originally Posted by tot002

Well, my points were that many poor peasants would hate Dantalian. Because I bet many didn't have money to offer the cure and died. Of course, many people lived, but Dantalian had no intent to save human's lives. He wanted to make money. For peasants, Dantalian was no difference from nobles, trying to exploit them. So, peasants would not help or listen to him, or even attack him if have the chance. I think it will be a plot convenient if Dantalian didn't face any those problems.

Exactly my boi~

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by tot002

Well, my points were that many poor peasants would hate Dantalian. Because I bet many didn't have money to offer the cure and died. Of course, many people lived, but Dantalian had no intent to save human's lives. He wanted to make money. For peasants, Dantalian was no difference from nobles, trying to exploit them. So, peasants would not help or listen to him, or even attack him if have the chance. I think it will be a plot convenient if Dantalian didn't face any those problems.

poor peasants would have more familiar killers to deal with then the black death, Cold and Hunger. Their hate would be directed more at their direct overlord who taking everything away with their taxes or the peddler/merchant selling the herb at high prices, then some foreign guy far away.

[Ophis]

And the translations of volume 4 began. Prologue and chapter 1 are out.

I have to say though, Dantalian's "plan" this time only worked out by sheer luck. Paimon helped him out for an entirely different reason than what he was expecting.

Seriously, if not for Paimon suddenly getting attracted(?) to him because of his "ideology", Dantalian would really have dug his own grave then and there.

While everyone, including her own faction and Dantalian, is thinking that Paimon is only protecting Dantalian in order to fuck Barbatos over, Paimon herself really didn't have such intention.


So, any bets on who will approach Dantalian first?

[soularc55]

Originally Posted by rantaid

Well if you want nitpicking.... if the black death plague's cure was supposed to be unknown, then how could everyone knows (believe) that the worthless herbs which Dantalian cunningly monopolize is the effective cure?

in my opinion, Dantalian just Martin Shkrelli-ed everyone.

Only about half-true. Unless you actually know about Martin's Daraprim policy, the price-gouge has a completely different context.

[wuhugm]

^^Indeed

Elizabeth negated Dandelion and Farnese's stupid speech so easily lol
Though it seems it still has lingering minor effect

Just have to love Barbatos' dirty mouth
On the other hand, Farnese' cheekiness is so annoying...

Also this :

⎯⎯ Tribe of Minyans. I remember. 300 years ago, at the region of doves, Thisvi, although a monster from the netherworld was approaching, you were able to protect your city with merely 400 men.

⎯⎯ Locrians, the people who lived while cultivating the water from the honorable River of Cephissus! I remember. 200 years ago, you all beheaded no less than 2 dragons in Euboea. Even the Goddesses of Heaven must have been moved by your achievement!

A monster equals to 400 men? Dragons? Where? Where are those OP beasts now? Coz I can only see humans vs humans now.
Barbatos summoned kinda cool beast there, where are the others like it? Why were they not being used?
Confused.

Later Paimon will approach Dandelion in prison and...

[rantaid]

@soularc555

i use Shkrelli's trick just to ease explanation of monopoly. however because you bring them up, here is reason why i use such term.

Daraprim is 62 yr old drug accepted as effective treatment for Aids (or HIV who cares), however as old as that drug, it hasn't gone many research for improvement while as we all know , every disease undergoes mutation or evolve (in certain) thereby causing old medicine to be obsolete as the newly mutated pathogen already adapt to withstand the effectivity of old drug.

Shkrelli jack up the price with intent (as he claim) to pay for further research to improve new Aids treatment drugs because aids has been considered as too retro for long (thereby not funny nor less profitting compared to cancer which for sure will be more profittable disease for every medical industry involved) - hence the only known treatment for this less lucrative disease is to have lots of money (cancer is more pay out less legal litigation). btw ebola vaccine has been found though.

On the other hand, in Dantalian case... we are face with several problem.

First, we did not have enough knowledge about what is this Black Death Plague and cause so far until vol.3 (was it just re imagination of Pes or Typhoid virus? or perhaps something other)
Second, with unknown disease, we are given fact about herbs which Dantalian monopolizes is the effective cure. so why is this a problem?

it brought further question whether the herbs is clinnically proven or just empirically proven.

if the herbs is clinnically proven, was it really logical that there is no rule about amassing and obtaining monopoly in intention to control the supply? yet, it also noted that herbs was considered worthless (as far as i remember), that it is allowed Dantalian to amass and monopoly the supply without anyone become suspicious of such act.

hence imo, the effectivity of the herb to treat the disease is questionable (empirically proven, questionable whether it is FDA approved) yet the author assure us that the herb is the proper cure for bLack plague disease and everyone knows that... hence for readers like me, it was a bit farfetched and quite an asspull.

which is why monopolizing an already known drugs/herbs to treat an already known yet rare disease with intention to jack up the price is what i meant as Dantalian pulled a Shkrellied to everyone; Demons and Humans alike.

[soularc55]

Wrong, it is for toxoplasmosis which often occurs from eating raw meats. Basically a parasite. Often those with aids get toxoplasmosis. If you were to take daraprim, you're likely to get sick from the side effect of it. Before, the medicine was unprofitable and as Shkreli bought the right, he price gouged it. But the context matters, he gives and no joke, 60% of the drug for free and the other 40% is paid by the health insurance mainly. The infection to those who have it is a small percent still. But as long as you have the certain qualification if you have no health insurance, you can basically get the drug paying no penny. Compared to Dantalion, yeah... in other words, this guy kinda does a charity compared to Dantalion

[Breimn]

Originally Posted by Ophis

And the translations of volume 4 began. Prologue and chapter 1 are out.

I have to say though, Dantalian's "plan" this time only worked out by sheer luck. Paimon helped him out for an entirely different reason than what he was expecting.

Seriously, if not for Paimon suddenly getting attracted(?) to him because of his "ideology", Dantalian would really have dug his own grave then and there.

While everyone, including her own faction and Dantalian, is thinking that Paimon is only protecting Dantalian in order to fuck Barbatos over, Paimon herself really didn't have such intention.


So, any bets on who will approach Dantalian first?

His plan still worked as he intended, as she latched on the bait he gave, but for the wrong reasons.
If he were to understand this he would probably be able to use her even better.
Looks like Dantalian s poison is very slowly working its way in the people s hearts , it only needs a trigger now.

[rantaid]

@soularc55

so daraprim was just 2nd line treatment for toxoplasm infection, not the retrovirus itself? well, i am corrected. thanks.

ah, that is no charity, still imo. he just cleverly adjust his target into viable one. still has to tinker insurance policy. but still, in business sense i admire him (Shkrelli).