U.S. Politics Thread (2017 going forward)

[Newhope]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Because they are he reason for all this crap, right?

I don't see the right rioting, beating people and spraying pepper spray in women faces.

Once you start condoning political violence like this I have zero respect for you or your views because once you start down a slippery slope like this it never turns out well.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Magin

Actually, the majority of those whom I've met that fully qualify as Democratic are SJWs. So don't pretend it's a small section; if the Republicans have become full of alt-rights, then the left is full of SJWs. Both of which are terrible things that believe it's their way or the highway.

Don't pretend your experience makes for an adequate sample size of an entire nation. And no one is saying the Republicans are full of alt-rights. They're just being led/controlled by them, considering who's in power and who's whispering into his ear.

Originally Posted by Magin

Again, both parties are full of shit. The only difference is that one side pretends their shit is better than the others. But it's still all shit.

And again, you're wrong. Both are bad, but they aren't equally bad. This isn't a game where all values less than 0 round up to 0.

Originally Posted by Key Board

Alt-Rights are the types that says that all people are equally victimized and parking spots should be first come first get. They also see disabled parking spots as oppression towards non disabled people.

The real key is that second part. The first part, whatever, that's just selfishness. But the second part, where they think helping others (or in the case of LGBT rights, making people equal) is somehow oppressing them. That's why they keep trying to push these "Religious Freedom" bills. They think not being allowed to discriminate against people is them being oppressed.

Originally Posted by Demi.

I think I agree with this. A lot of them just don't even realize it. If you're calling people a racist or a bigot without irrefutable evidence, you've already joined the dark side.

"Alternative facts" proves nothing is irrefutable. So by that logic, no one can be or ever was a racist.

Originally Posted by Newhope

I am fast losing patience with the left....

Your post history is public, you know? You never really had patience with the left.

Originally Posted by Newhope

I don't see the right rioting, beating people and spraying pepper spray in women faces.

Once you start condoning political violence like this I have zero respect for you or your views because once you start down a slippery slope like this it never turns out well.

http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blo...d-to-discredit

So you must hate the right too, correct?

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Because they are he reason for all this crap, right?

YES. I know that's not the response you expected to hear but the left is a majority of the reason why Trump ended up being elected, and by extension, the reason for 'all this crap'.

There are multiple reasons why I can genuinely say this, but I'll give you the short and skinny.

1. Let's start with the first elephant in the room: the prevalence of a focus on intellectually dishonest identity politics. I'm including modern feminism, Black Lives Matter, and the now self-devouring LGBT community. Each of these is focused on creating an invisible other that must be destroyed (I need not say what the other is) while ironically denying reality and making up statistics, referencing the same terribly executed studies, or taking existing statistics and applying an incorrect meaning to it to further an agenda. All of this results in a cult-like mentality that shuns those who even slightly disagree or won't give them a voice. Remember when BLM decided to interrupt a Bernie Sanders rally and hold it hostage if he didn't let them speak immediately? That made ripples.

2. Next comes the Hillary Campaign. Leaving the entire DNC leaks issue aside, Hillary offered...NOTHING. Her only campaign promises that made any impact: I am not Trump and I am a woman, therefore vote for me. Anyone who disagreed with her slightly was made into a white supremacist. Her campaign pushed to label anyone who supported Trump as a Nazi. Her stupid attempt to label a meme frog as an icon of white supremacy. Had she actually countered Trump on real issues instead of trying to constantly pull the identity politics route, she may have garnered much more support. I mean, Trump had a bunch of shitty policy ideas, but rather than tackling that, she and the left wing media that backed her (yeah, there is a huge conflict of interest there) made Trump scandal-proof.

3. Protests associated with democrats and the left turning violent or doing shady shit. BlackLivesMatter is just one thing. But, numerous anti-Trump protests had footage of people doing despicable stuff like BLOCKING A FUCKING AMBULANCE INTENTIONALLY, blocking traffic on major arteries, devolving into riots.

4. The silence the other mentality I mentioned has been going on for a while. Protests to shut down events like talks by Milo, Based Mom (Christina Hoff Sommers, a feminist I can actually respect), and more because they simply did not like what they were saying, claiming that, in essence, their thoughtcrime made them unfit to speak anywhere. This of course, extended to twitter who added 'disagrees with me' as a reason to report someone for harassment.

This shit alienated many classical liberals like myself and while some like myself abstained from voting, others saw Trump as more in line with their values as classical liberals than the supposedly liberal candidate.

NOTE: This is not everything. This is just a small set of stuff I could pull out while chewing on my breakfast.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Newhope

I don't see the right rioting, beating people and spraying pepper spray in women faces.

Once you start condoning political violence like this I have zero respect for you or your views because once you start down a slippery slope like this it never turns out well.

Nope, i never approved of violence and never will.

I just have to wonder what you guys have expectet would happen when you voted a Nazis and Fascist in power. Everything will be sunschine, rainbows and butterflies? People feel a reasonable fear and are angry with the people who made this shitshow happen. Some idiot see violence as the only way, witch is sad and by no means acceptable.
There are other ways to protest. Millions of people are using this ways. Let's see what will happen what will happen when Turd and his Regime starts to block this ways too.

Originally Posted by Hiss13

YES. I know that's not the response you expected to hear but the left is a majority of the reason why Trump ended up being elected, and by extension, the reason for 'all this crap'.

There are multiple reasons why I can genuinely say this, but I'll give you the short and skinny.

1. Let's start with the first elephant in the room: the prevalence of a focus on intellectually dishonest identity politics. I'm including modern feminism, Black Lives Matter, and the now self-devouring LGBT community. Each of these is focused on creating an invisible other that must be destroyed (I need not say what the other is) while ironically denying reality and making up statistics, referencing the same terribly executed studies, or taking existing statistics and applying an incorrect meaning to it to further an agenda. All of this results in a cult-like mentality that shuns those who even slightly disagree or won't give them a voice. Remember when BLM decided to interrupt a Bernie Sanders rally and hold it hostage if he didn't let them speak immediately? That made ripples.

2. Next comes the Hillary Campaign. Leaving the entire DNC leaks issue aside, Hillary offered...NOTHING. Her only campaign promises that made any impact: I am not Trump and I am a woman, therefore vote for me. Anyone who disagreed with her slightly was made into a white supremacist. Her campaign pushed to label anyone who supported Trump as a Nazi. Her stupid attempt to label a meme frog as an icon of white supremacy. Had she actually countered Trump on real issues instead of trying to constantly pull the identity politics route, she may have garnered much more support. I mean, Trump had a bunch of shitty policy ideas, but rather than tackling that, she and the left wing media that backed her (yeah, there is a huge conflict of interest there) made Trump scandal-proof.

3. Protests associated with democrats and the left turning violent or doing shady shit. BlackLivesMatter is just one thing. But, numerous anti-Trump protests had footage of people doing despicable stuff like BLOCKING A FUCKING AMBULANCE INTENTIONALLY, blocking traffic on major arteries, devolving into riots.

4. The silence the other mentality I mentioned has been going on for a while. Protests to shut down events like talks by Milo, Based Mom (Christina Hoff Sommers, a feminist I can actually respect), and more because they simply did not like what they were saying, claiming that, in essence, their thoughtcrime made them unfit to speak anywhere. This of course, extended to twitter who added 'disagrees with me' as a reason to report someone for harassment.

This shit alienated many classical liberals like myself and while some like myself abstained from voting, others saw Trump as more in line with their values as classical liberals than the supposedly liberal candidate.

NOTE: This is not everything. This is just a small set of stuff I could pull out while chewing on my breakfast.

How I love excuses.

60 Millions knew wery well what Turd and the GOP was promising.
They knew very well that they would vote for Nazis and Fascist. The writing was on the wall and they still choose to do so.
If you vote for Nazis and Fascists, you agree with their bullcrap. In the end of the day, you are than one of them.

[Hiss13]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

How I love excuses.

60 Millions knew wery well what Turd and the GOP was promising.
They knew very well that they would vote for Nazis and Fascist. The writing was on the wall and they still choose to do so.
If you vote for Nazis and Fascists, you agree with their bullcrap. In the end of the day, you are than one of them.

So, I'm a Nazi because I didn't vote Hillary apparently. Congrats. You should do something more useful to society if you have such a long reach.

In the end, you're just showing how little Democrats and the Left refuse to even reflect on why they lost. I guarantee you that you will get another Trump victory or at least another Republican victory in 2020 if the Democrats don't actually perform some self-reflection instead of doubling down on the crap that made them lose.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by GDB

So you must hate the right too, correct?

The difference is scale and severity. With a country this massive you're sure to have some rotten apples in both party lines, but recently, riots have been taking place everywhere with increasing violence...Even many of the non-violent protesters in recent months think they have the right to block traffic and impede upon other peoples rights.

Back when Obama won? Small groups of protests with some racist dialogue on their signs and a single image of a group of three(or was it one?) people burning an effigy. Almost no videos exist of it because of how small-scale it was by comparison. Mostly just the Tea Party, and no one really likes them.

I voted Trump entirely to spite these type of people. Even now, I'm not regretting my decision one bit, even if there is plenty about Trump I can disagree with.


Dauerlutscher

^Also SJW alert.

[bones]

Originally Posted by Hiss13

So, I'm a Nazi because I didn't vote Hillary apparently. Congrats. You should do something more useful to society if you have such a long reach.

In the end, you're just showing how little Democrats and the Left refuse to even reflect on why they lost. I guarantee you that you will get another Trump victory or at least another Republican victory in 2020 if the Democrats don't actually perform some self-reflection instead of doubling down on the crap that made them lose.

As an outsider looking in at your election process, I think that point of view is kinda narrow. The Republicans doubled down on their stupidity/obstructionism for nearly ten years and leaving the presidency aside their reward was total control of your Senate and Congress. What exactly do you expect the Democrats to learn from that?

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Hiss13

So, I'm a Nazi because I didn't vote Hillary apparently. Congrats. You should do something more useful to society if you have such a long reach.

In the end, you're just showing how little Democrats and the Left refuse to even reflect on why they lost. I guarantee you that you will get another Trump victory or at least another Republican victory in 2020 if the Democrats don't actually perform some self-reflection instead of doubling down on the crap that made them lose.

Nope. All I said is when you voted for a Nazi, you are one. Simple as that. There is absolutely no excuse.

When you didn't vote for crooked Hillary and not for Turd, but for a third party knowing very well what would happen, because "both are bad". You are part of the problem too.

I know , denial is strong and taking responsibility for your own actions is apparently really hard for some people. But for the love of any reasonable human being on this god damn planet, stop with the responsibility shifting nonsese. You made a choise, own it.

White House nixed Holocaust statement naming Jews

You guys gave this shit a chance. And they got it. Thanky you.

[Key Board]

The reason why people resort to violence is because the opposition has shown it has no qualms about using violence themselves
They are using violence because the government is unwilling or unable, or even complicit in their oppression

Most people remember MLK for his "I have a dream quote" But what you get in history books is a sanitized version of him.
He also said that " And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met"

Slightly off topic, but related. Have you been following the NODAPL news in the last following months

Non violent protest met with militarized police actions?
and than framing the oil company as the victim?
guess who Trumphouse sided with?

Yeah, that's our world right now
It's no wonder people are resorting to violence.
Violence has already been committed on them either physically or through systematic oprression

[MCAL]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...ndroid-verizon

Never forget the Bowling Green Massacre. And it's great hero Frederick Douglass!

[James Rye]

Originally Posted by Hiss13

So, I'm a Nazi because I didn't vote Hillary apparently. Congrats. You should do something more useful to society if you have such a long reach.

In the end, you're just showing how little Democrats and the Left refuse to even reflect on why they lost. I guarantee you that you will get another Trump victory or at least another Republican victory in 2020 if the Democrats don't actually perform some self-reflection instead of doubling down on the crap that made them lose.

Nah. That would make all germans who voted for Hitler back then Nazis and we got enough documents from that time to prove that only what, 10-15% of the whole population were part of the NSDAP? And yet they got way more votes that that. Same goes for Reps and Dems in USA, pretty sure neither party has over 60 million members.
I remember an article which explained how the rep/dem candidates came to be and how it then gets down to 1 vs 1 and how only a handful of people in America, compared to the full size of the American people, are actually responsible for which Representative get elected for the final show-down. So does that make all 60M people who voted for Trump Nazis?
Nope,
But it does mean you support somebody who does get a lot support and advise from extreme right organization who try to appear mainstream and "speak for the people", turning the will of few into the will of many.
Ofc your reason for voting Trump could be entirely different than what those people voted Trump for but you do stand in the same group as them. Same as people who voted for Hillary for entirely different reasons now stand in the same group as extreme left activists who wanna riot now.

The way I see it if you vote you got a responsibility. You can always make excuse or believe that this or that won't happen because of this and that reason, however if something does happen then it is part of your responsibility as you made that reality happen via your vote.
Same would be if Hillary had been voted into power and create no-fly-areas in Syria in her first week. Then you as well would tell the leftis and the not-leftis who voted for Hillary for whatever reason that they are responsible for a possible future war with Russia if Putin does not take those areas well.

What I see with concern with Trump is how he doesn't try to be "central". Usually a president always tries in his first weeks/months to get into the center, make compromises with the party which lost, etc, kinda like Bush and Obama in the past. Trump on the other hand seems to want to satisfy his fans by any means necessary, writing down EOs without most of his ministers even approved yet, nor did I hear of him meeting with the Reps/Dem parties for some parlay for the future four years, all I hear and see are him, Bannon, Connway and his stepson. Even Pence seems to be pushed back by Bannon.
If somebody insults his allies, even long-standing ones like Australia, and puts down the phone call after just 25 minutes instead of talking for a whole hour or longer as it was supposed to just because you didn't liked the deal of 1k extra refugees then that is worrisome to me.
Others ofc love to see that as it proves that America is putting his feet down and show who is the boss of the world. And others will panic and protest either peacefully or by rioting. Though I suppose most people from both sides rather protest peacefully, the rioting ones are always a small number but they make better headlines so they get more screentime than the boring normal guys protesting because they dislike this or that.

[Magin]

Since everywhere I see people saying that if you didn't vote for Hillary then you clearly voted for Trump, despite actually voting third party... well, I just want to do some speculation. First off, I've been on Bernie Sander's side since the beginning, so that might tell you something. Also, I couldn't vote for Bernie in the primary because I've stayed Independent, and New York said that by the time Bernie was a serious contender, it was too late to change party affiliation... anyways, I go by the mantra that if you vote for a candidate, it means you support them. In my opinion, this is what Hillary stood for and what I would be voting for:

- Corporations controlling America, courtesy of the TPP. Hell no. Granted, now trump's pulling the same shit, but at the time, it seemed like he was giving the middle finger to everyone. Still it's known that Hillary was for certain backed by them. In fact, getting rid of the TPP has been a strong point of Trump

- Continuing Obamacare/ The Affordable Care act. Okay, it sounds nice... wait, you're telling me that not only do I HAVE to have health insurance, I also HAVE to pay for it? FUCK. THAT. This is where I have to play the Fucking Asshole card and say that for all those who have pre-existing conditions, too fucking bad for you. I'm perfectly healthy and don't have any money to spend on your health. If was I making 80k a year, I kight think very differently, but as of right now, I barely made 16k this year, and I've needed every penny of it, mostly to cover student loans and a car payment.

-Now, I will admit that I could've been persuaded to vote for Hillary, but there was one ultimate thing that broke the camel's back: I support the Standing Rock and NODAPL movement. Bernie was saying it needed to be gotten rid of. What does Hillary say? She basically can't say anything one way or another, due to too many influences. Obviously, Trump had the exact same issue, though he more or less openly supported it.

So I ask the people who blame us third party voters... who are we supposed to vote for when neither candidate aligns with what the voter believes in? That's why we went third party. Hell, for some of that shit I actually would take Trump over Hillary, such as with TPP and Obamacare.

Also, I should mention that as much as I hate Trump... so far, none of his executive orders even affect me. I'm not a female nor do I have female in my life who is all crazy about the shit that Trump's doing, so i don't care. And this Muslim ban? At the end of the day, I'm not a Muslim, so it doesn't affect me either. Hell, I technically fall as a Christian if you want to bring any religious stuff, so I'm safe. In fact, I saw an interesting video that at least made me think about this much: a guy over in Iran (granted, I'm wary of this video because as twitter/tumblr would put it, he was this musclebound neckbeard with tattoos all over the place, and that fits a few too many stereotypes) was saying that he asked a bunch of Iranians that if he went out into the street away from wherever his safe zone was, what would happen. They immediately told him that he would be taken, tortured, and executed by by the locals. So his point was that if they were willing to do that to an American in their territory, why should the US allow any of them to come to the States? Granted, my immediate reaction was that it was a blanket statement he made, and that far more come from the Middle East to the US as a career opportunity than to cause chaos and destruction.

Anyways, some more speculation. Let's say that were in an AU, and Hillary had made president. What would be happening? Here's my personal takes:

- The TPP would be in debate, with Hillary pretending to say it needed to be changed all the while making sure it fit her Wall Street Masters

-Hillary would be saying a lot of things about how Obama's policies needed changes but she would be unsure of what changes need to be made. AKA the most notorious thing a politician can do- say one thing, and then do absolutely nothing about it that would at least benefit the common people. Again, I'd rather have a president at this point who at least does something rather than nothing, even if the outcome is bad.

- The one positive is that at least her Cabinet choices would make sense.

Unfortunately, this is all speculation, and we'll never know how a Hillary presidency would turn out. But let's just say that I would be bashing my head against the wall everyday, because Hillary would be Obama 2.0. And I was sick of Obama after his first term.

[Toukairin]

Originally Posted by Demi.

Dauerlutscher

^Also SJW alert.

Isn't that a violation of the forum rules?

Do you even know what social justice even mean in the first place? Do you even know that it is something that goes as far as back as Ancient Greece and then evolved into what we know today with some core ideals standing strong? The world would be a hell lot of a shittier place today if it wasn't for people who pushed and still continue to push for justice against rules and laws that discriminate particular slices of the population.

[VORTIA]

I'm infinitely curious - what is it that has convinced modern leftists that name-calling is the only effective means of convincing voters to support their agenda? The Democrats have been on a continuous losing streak since 2008, despite the Republicans running far and away some of the LEAST likeable & qualified candidates around. Despite that, hardly a single soul on the left, from the average street protester to Hillary Clinton's campaign provides any solid intellectual argument for their platform, and have built their entire identity around accusing their opponents of bigotry. I mean, what seriously makes them think that calling Republicans, Libertarians, Independents and even Green party voters Nazis makes them think that they'll change their minds and vote Dem the next time around? It's like the entire Democratic Party is already an arm of Trump's reelection campaign!

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by VORTIA

I'm infinitely curious - what is it that has convinced modern leftists that name-calling is the only effective means of convincing voters to support their agenda?

Do you really think you are being insulted for nothing?

Do you think we insult Trump for fun too?

And "agenda"? What agenda? We don't like what Trump wants, and we don't like those who support what Trump wants. We have no intention to befriend those who follow Trump, end of story. It is natural that you think you are the good guys, but one day you are going to find out you are wearing skulls on your caps.

[Ithekro]

Its like politics suddenly became 4chan.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Its like politics suddenly became 4chan.

In the end I like to call it "Puss in boots". The idea is, politics is the only thing in the world that ignores reality. That you can change facts as long as you get enough people to believe in lies.

Trump had took full advantage of it, and his supporters agreed with him. That all one has to do when hearing uncomfortable reality, is to just replace it with lies and shout it every day. Trump supporters aren't being fooled, they just no longer care what is real anymore.

Puss In Boots told us this long ago. The moral of the story is, if everyone believe I am the King of France, then I become King of France. Reality has no relevance in politics, belief alone is the only thing that matters.

EDIT:
I just want to add, that there is another country that obeys this principle. It is China. The Chinese government lies so often, that the citizens assume that the government is lying 100% of the time. Further, this trickles down as such the citizens also assume absolutely everyone is lying until proven otherwise. The nation treats the truth as something dangerous and only released occasionally when necessary. This is USA's future.

[VORTIA]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Do you really think you are being insulted for nothing?

I guess I need to try to ask this again another way.

How is insulting non-Democrat voters supposed to convince them to vote Democrat? I didn't vote for Trump. Presumably, you'd like me to vote Democrat in 2020. How is insulting me supposed to do that?

[Haak]

I mean if it's true that 40% of Americans agree with a Muslim registry (presumably most of them Trump voters) then isn't that a clear cut case of bigotry supporting policies based on Nazi fascism? In which case, it's not so much name-calling/insulting as it is just factual.

[Toukairin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

And "agenda"? What agenda? We don't like what Trump wants, and we don't like those who support what Trump wants. We have no intention to befriend those who follow Trump, end of story. It is natural that you think you are the good guys, but one day you are going to find out you are wearing skulls on your caps.

This. Whoever supports what Trump wants just doesn't deserve my friendship either. Decades of worldwide efforts to improve societies through civil rights and more inclusive mindsets are just too precious for many of us to tolerate any single thing of what that fool at the White House is currently doing.

The only thing I want to ask anyone who voted for Trump is this: what is your definition of the "good old days"? For me, the concept of "good old days" just cannot be applied in a world in which technological and social progress has been going non-stop. Why? Because being stuck in the "good old days" also means no progress. It's totally incompatible in an era that has seen more progress than ever in the history of mankind.

Originally Posted by Haak

I mean if it's true that 40% of Americans agree with a Muslim registry (presumably most of them Trump voters) then isn't that a clear cut case of bigotry supporting policies based on Nazi fascism? In which case, it's not so much name-calling/insulting as it is just factual.

With that many historical facts that can be used here in a discussion, it's very much impossible for anyone to use any form of excuse to justify the idea of a registry. As you would say in the UK, those people are totally bonkers.