(L) Kumo Desu ga, Nani ka? [WN]

[cabman11]

Essentially both hers and his view on gods are the same. Make them run out of the power and they can be killed.

Oh maybe that's only up to lesser gods. We still don't know true power of a proper medium God and a high God. Even Kuro isn't a mid god yet.
Maybe it's another Transcendent kind of thing

[erneiz_hyde]

I didn't get the star blazers reference, but the second one is obviously Death Star lol.

Also, I guess you guys really don't like gods having this "running out of juice" huh. Perhaps because you don't want Potimas to be correct about anything? I also thought that maybe there is another level of transcendence, but I think it's more likely that even D is also working on the same principle, but with a lot more energy stored in her. Who knows, maybe why she called herself an evil god is because she siphoned energy from lots other worlds before.

[kari-no-sugata II]

If the gods of the world had infinite energy then there would have been no need to create the System to fix the broken world. If you're going by more scientific theory (and this series does) then it's more natural to expect things like the law of conservation of energy to apply. So I never had a problem with gods having a finite amount of energy, with all the implications that has. Particularly since Shiro has been energy conscious for a long time. It does make one wonder where gods do get their energy from though. I doubt they typically "eat" worlds (or the population) since that would be basically killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. Harvesting energy from stars seems like a much better plan. Or if converting any matter to energy directly is practical, then just about anything goes. Can you eat a black hole!?

As for what else is possible, there's yet to be an explanation of what "attributes" really are. Eg, D controls the attributes of Death and Darkness but what does that actually mean? Are "attributes" an underlying part of magecraft... or something else entirely?

btw, one thought on Shiro's "Evil Eye of Gluttony". If it only works on things that can be "seen" then isn't the simplest counter-measure to create lots of dust? Though maybe there's ways to handle that too - eg using clairvoyance or whatever (radar etc!?). It'll be interesting to see if Shiro's actions directly affect things underground. It seems a long way down so if Shiro has literally eaten all the magecraft below her web, including underground, then Potimas's little magecraft jamming field is going to go bye-bye. I'd be a bit surprised if that did happen though. I'm expecting any benefits of this move for Ariel to be indirect.

[cabman11]

Maybe at a high enough point they start fusing with energy itself and Concepts. Maybe D really is the embodiment of Darkness itself.


Another view is, the gods are above the laws of the world, but still require energy

[kari-no-sugata II]

Translation is up for "296 – Elf Village Battle ⑧"

Spoiler for thoughts:

Hmm. If the series really is going to end with "Shiro vs Kuro" (spider god vs dragon god) then I guess it would be in Shiro's interest to try to drag out the start of final confrontation if possible, so that she can develop more toys. I'm also a bit surprised she doesn't seem more interested in pillaging all the energy from the elf village. Surely that would help a lot?

[Arkeus]

Originally Posted by cabman11

Essentially both hers and his view on gods are the same. Make them run out of the power and they can be killed.

Not quite- Kumo tries to take away all energy, while Potimas tries to get them to expand it.

Basically, this means that while Kumo's technique would work against a "God is a power source himself but has limited regen", Potimas' wouldn't (if the whole plan succeed, I mean).

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

If the gods of the world had infinite energy then there would have been no need to create the System to fix the broken world. If you're going by more scientific theory (and this series does) then it's more natural to expect things like the law of conservation of energy to apply. So I never had a problem with gods having a finite amount of energy, with all the implications that has. Particularly since Shiro has been energy conscious for a long time. It does make one wonder where gods do get their energy from though. I doubt they typically "eat" worlds (or the population) since that would be basically killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. Harvesting energy from stars seems like a much better plan. Or if converting any matter to energy directly is practical, then just about anything goes. Can you eat a black hole!?

Or, you know, gods have infinite energy but their energy regen is not at a rate acceptable to save the world.

Though even then, there is to be considered that Sariel managed to constantly be drained for thousands? of years and it now appears she might have had managed to save everyone were it not for Potimas.

[pezzie]

Shiro is thinking with portals

[Amuris]

@Arkeus

Shiro and Potima's methods work by the same premise. If regain is an issue for one, it is for the other. They are both relying on the god's power being drained and them being unable to recover it. Shiro actively takes it while Potimas passively by forcing them to fight while inhibited. The differences aren't relevant to the discussion.

@kari-no-sugata II

If they could actually get energy by breaking down matter, it would be a hella a resource. The conversion rate from mass to energy is massive. Growing your arm back from pure energy would require enough to blow up the star system. Well, atleast enough to wipe out the planet and then some. Because of that, I don't think that's the case. Since they regrow limbs with such small amounts of energy, the author probably didn't know/consider the conversion rate. So they wouldn't make the amount of energy you get from that so freakishly high in-universe.

As for 'attributes'...D's Darkness and Death seem to include the whole package, doesn't it? I mean, it's like she has control over the cycle of reincarnation, the flow of souls and energy. Not entirely sure what that says about attributes but it doesn't seem like it's simply elements...


Also, gonna rant here for a sec but, come on guys, don't worry about that. It's perfectly fine that gods in this story have clear limitations. It makes it a much better story. I mean, I thought we were past this. When Isekai started getting popular, people were all excited because they had protagonist that DID things, unlike hetare harem protags we were getting before. I thought we started realizing that that was usually the same thing as hetare, since we were expected to praise a mc based on what they had (cool powers, authority, a harem) and not who they are. That's why a lot of the other stories are so boring. They're just about how strong the mc is and not how funny or interesting they are or how cleverly they can use what little they have. Shiro having a limited amount of energy that she has to think about how to use effectively is a much more interesting story.

[Hokoga]

This is just a thought but what if the limit to the amount of MI energy Shiro can absorb is the exact amount D possess.

Basically Shiro's soul(fragment of D's soul) having the capabilities to quickly match the original(D's soul), as if it's using the MI energy to restore itself back to it's original power.

------------------------------
Well this is just an idea that I'm not going to stand behind too much and also I have a few things I need to go read(new TL chapter of Kumo, etc...) so I'll be going now bye!

[Rageth]

Originally Posted by Arkeus

Not quite- Kumo tries to take away all energy, while Potimas tries to get them to expand it.

Basically, this means that while Kumo's technique would work against a "God is a power source himself but has limited regen", Potimas' wouldn't (if the whole plan succeed, I mean).

It's the same premise. "Gods are just beings with a lot of energy." The only difference is in the details, because Potimas really couldn't have done what Shiro is doing.

Originally Posted by Amuris

If they could actually get energy by breaking down matter, it would be a hella a resource. The conversion rate from mass to energy is massive. Growing your arm back from pure energy would require enough to blow up the star system. Well, atleast enough to wipe out the planet and then some. Because of that, I don't think that's the case. Since they regrow limbs with such small amounts of energy, the author probably didn't know/consider the conversion rate. So they wouldn't make the amount of energy you get from that so freakishly high in-universe.

This assumes that when they create an arm or leg, that they're creating it from scratch. While converting pure energy into mass requires a huge amount of power, re-configuring existing mass into a different structure (ie, rearranging atoms in the air into complex molecules like cells) takes considerably less energy.

[EvilSociopath323]

The question is that if Po collected such an amount of energy and Shiro just absorbed it couldn't she use that energy to restore the MA field (or whatever it's called) instead of killing the majority of the population? For some reason I don't get the feeling that that's gonna happen.

Also there was this discussion about energy conversion and how gods replenish energy. I'm sorry that I haven't read all the comments so someone might have already a better opinion or have mentioned this but I do believe we had a chapter with Shiro saying that she actually eats food to replenish energy to sustain all those clones she has. So gods seem to replenish energy from normal food. It's just not clear in what relationship MA energy and mana stand. Inside the system mana seems to replenish rather fast but the amount of MA energy probably grows much slower. Also a persons amount of MA grows by constantly training the soul? I always imagined MA being equal to soul, that is, MA is the stuff the souls made of, or not? Something like MA = soul = muscle tissue. By training you increase your muscle tissue (soul). The energy you need for the muscle (soul) is obtained through food and then converted into energy usable for the muscle (in the case of a soul mana) and then you can do actual work (magic). Hope such an analogy is clear enough.

[Breimn]

Originally Posted by EvilSociopath323

The question is that if Po collected such an amount of energy and Shiro just absorbed it couldn't she use that energy to restore the MA field (or whatever it's called) instead of killing the majority of the population? For some reason I don't get the feeling that that's gonna happen.

Here is the answer

. I had wondered “hey, just how much energy did you grab to make even one of those sea urchins”, but with all these things here a fragment or two of the world could have been saved long ago.

Still not enough.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Shiro's goal is not "save the world".

It's to help Ariel achieve what she wants (to save the Goddess), even though Shiro doesn't give a damn about it personally.

Remember that D told Shiro to do this. From chapter 204:

『In addition, you may do as you please as long as you abide some rules. However, you must obey my order sometimes』

Hmm. When you said it like that, it's not a bad condition unexpectedly, huh?

『The second one is to cooperate with that Demon King』

Un?

『I want to see this story until the end. That's why, this is the first order rather than a request』

[EvilSociopath323]

Originally Posted by Breimn

Here is the answer

Still not enough.

I kinda don't get what you mean. The original quote is

　ウニ一体だけでもどんだけエネルギー横領してんねんって思ったけど、こんないっぱいいたら世界の一個や二 個とっくに救われてるわ。

with 一個や二個 being counters as in one or two worlds rather than fragments. Though I believe that Shiro slightly exaggerated.

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

Shiro's goal is not "save the world".

It's to help Ariel achieve what she wants (to save the Goddess), even though Shiro doesn't give a damn about it personally.

You're right about that but to achieve that she could be a bit more considerate to others... It's cause we know how she is that we don't believe she actually would use the energy gathered in this fight to save the world.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by EvilSociopath323

I kinda don't get what you mean. The original quote is

with 一個や二個 being counters as in one or two worlds rather than fragments. Though I believe that Shiro slightly exaggerated.

One or two worlds would be 一つや二つ, I'm pretty sure. I agree it's a bit ambiguous but as far as I can tell, the counter for worlds is the default one, not 個.

If it was one or two worlds then Potimas would have significantly more energy gathered than Kuro has, which seems unlikely (else Potimas wouldn't need a super efficient way of fighting)

You're right about that but to achieve that she could be a bit more considerate to others... It's cause we know how she is that we don't believe she actually would use the energy gathered in this fight to save the world.

Well, she's not feeling very charitable to the people of the world due to their past mistakes. She is getting a bit more sympathetic after seeing how much Potimas screwed them over but for Shiro to complete the task given to her by D she needs to end the System (or so she believes) which is going to kill a lot of people. I wouldn't mind if she gets some believable character development and changes her approach a bit but since the story seems to be heading for a Shiro vs Kuro final battle, I suspect that's not going to happen (or at least, not before then).

[EvilSociopath323]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata II

One or two worlds would be 一つや二つ, I'm pretty sure. I agree it's a bit ambiguous but as far as I can tell, the counter for worlds is the default one, not 個.

I'm not a linguist but I'm pretty sure that both 『一つ、二つ』『一個、二個』are used to count objects. The differences being nuances, like the former being a more broader term. What 個 doesn't mean is a fragment (if I'm wrong then I apologize, in which case could you please give me a reference where I can find it).

The sentence Shiro used wouldn't make sense with 'fragment'. We don't know how much a fragment exactly is so why count in the first place.

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by Hokoga

This is just a thought but what if the limit to the amount of MI energy Shiro can absorb is the exact amount D possess.

Basically Shiro's soul(fragment of D's soul) having the capabilities to quickly match the original(D's soul), as if it's using the MI energy to restore itself back to it's original power.

------------------------------
Well this is just an idea that I'm not going to stand behind too much and also I have a few things I need to go read(new TL chapter of Kumo, etc...) so I'll be going now bye!

I'm not sure if there is a limit to how much energy gods can have. There might be but I don't remember there being any hints of this.

btw, it doesn't seem like the energy that gods have is "MA Energy". It seems gods just have energy in general not a specific type.

Originally Posted by Amuris

If they could actually get energy by breaking down matter, it would be a hella a resource. The conversion rate from mass to energy is massive. Growing your arm back from pure energy would require enough to blow up the star system. Well, atleast enough to wipe out the planet and then some. Because of that, I don't think that's the case. Since they regrow limbs with such small amounts of energy, the author probably didn't know/consider the conversion rate. So they wouldn't make the amount of energy you get from that so freakishly high in-universe.

For things like healing someone, I very much doubt it would work by creating matter from energy (E = mc^2). Auto-healing is a common skill in this world so the implementation would surely be relatively energy efficient - eg by mix of reassembling the old parts or by converting existing matter. I'm pretty sure the author would have considered this. Potimas did say that the Type Ω is more energy efficient to regenerate because it's simple.

Shiro says she's particularly good at energy absorption, which implies that typical gods don't do anything too crazy. It'll be interesting to find out what other gods do for energy. The potential sci-fi aspects are quite interesting.

As for 'attributes'...D's Darkness and Death seem to include the whole package, doesn't it? I mean, it's like she has control over the cycle of reincarnation, the flow of souls and energy. Not entirely sure what that says about attributes but it doesn't seem like it's simply elements...

I agree that Darkness and/or Death might well tie into D's ability to mess with reincarnation, souls and energy. The question remains - are "attributes" directly related to "magecraft" - eg is "magecraft" something more like a framework that builds on top of "attributes" (like "magic" in the System builds on top of "magecraft")? If it does, then what does it mean for D to be able to control them and how did she get control in the first place? If it doesn't, then what are attributes and how do you get control over them?

Also, gonna rant here for a sec but, come on guys, don't worry about that. It's perfectly fine that gods in this story have clear limitations. It makes it a much better story. I mean, I thought we were past this. When Isekai started getting popular, people were all excited because they had protagonist that DID things, unlike hetare harem protags we were getting before. I thought we started realizing that that was usually the same thing as hetare, since we were expected to praise a mc based on what they had (cool powers, authority, a harem) and not who they are. That's why a lot of the other stories are so boring. They're just about how strong the mc is and not how funny or interesting they are or how cleverly they can use what little they have. Shiro having a limited amount of energy that she has to think about how to use effectively is a much more interesting story.

Indeed. It's also significant that Shiro using her power has potential downsides.

It's fine for authors to create "wish fulfilment" type stories if they want to and make it clear to the readers that this is the type of story that they're going to get. But, such stories generally aren't very satisfying (depending on the reader).


PS I wonder what happened to the remaining robots after this. There were around 10,000 at one point - did Shiro suck the energy from them as well...? I would guess that they were actively using magecraft for defence and movement so they should be affected. I wonder how much energy Shiro's been able to absorb so far...

[Breimn]

297 Battle of Elven Village ⑨ is out!
AHHAHAHAHAHHAHAH POOR POTIMAS

[kari-no-sugata II]

Originally Posted by EvilSociopath323

I'm not a linguist but I'm pretty sure that both 『一つ、二つ』『一個、二個』are used to count objects. The differences being nuances, like the former being a more broader term. What 個 doesn't mean is a fragment (if I'm wrong then I apologize, in which case could you please give me a reference where I can find it).

The sentence Shiro used wouldn't make sense with 'fragment'. We don't know how much a fragment exactly is so why count in the first place.

Preface: I'm not 100% certain about this and don't mind being wrong. However, it makes more sense for me for it to mean "piece" than "planet" since otherwise Shiro would have just sucked up an insane amount of energy and should be about equal to Kuro I guess?

According to jdict, 一個 can mean "piece; fragment; one (object)". If we look at previous uses in the series, we have this from the recent 474 (291 - elf village war 1):

て言っても残ってるのはあと一個だけなんだけどね。

And this from 356 (229 - The Mastermind):

仮に万事うまく行ったとしても、魔王の力は一個で一軍を軽く蹴散らせる。

The first one is clearly "one piece" and the second one is clearly "a fragment" (I'd say). So either is possible. So to me it becomes whether 一個 is a valid counter for "world". I'm not sure but I don't think 一個 is used for "large" objects. Also, "世界" normally means "the world" or "this world" rather than "a world" or "a planet". I think the author would have used "惑星" instead.

But anyway, new raw chapter out, so time to read that first. Potimas is losing it, it seems

[Rageth]

Spoil pls.