Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans - Anime Spoilers & Speculation

[tdx]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

I could not disagree more with this. Tekkadan goes on missions like all the time, and that includes to other places. That means being gone for weeks at a time including travel time at a minimum given the info we have of travel time (Mars travel time was noted to be 15 days at one point in the show although physical that be longer or shorter due to orbital periods)

That's a fine example of coming up with justifications and filling plot holes the best you can yourself because the show didn't do it for you, Sonic. And I'm through with that ungrateful job. If the show didn't bother, why should I. At this point, I'd rather point out the holes, not cover them up. In the end, what stands is basically this:

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Kudelia was sidelined and denied entrance to relevance at every turn. Reduced to Love Triangle and Harem BS.

This is what's left when chaff is blown away.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

First: my line that you quoted was directed at everyone who claimed that Ride being a slow-dodger this episode was an inconsistency and a form of nerving. Well...it's false. It's wrong. It's not true at all. I already gave you the factual and logical answer in the part of my post that you didn't quote, so you can go back to that.

To me, it means that Ride's learning ability is basically zero (perhaps took too much hits to the head during his CGS days...?). If the kid didn't learn to watch his surroundings and dodge after all the numerous times and people taking damage for him, he never will. Reddit (I think?) even joked about it how Iok and Ride are the impenetrable and immovable personified, and I couldn't have agreed more.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Second: Mika "failing" to finish female opponents and letting them go is not something new this season. he did it in S1 and he did it again in S2. Not really an inconsistency. Is it weird? Yeah. Is it a writing flaw? Could be.

He didn't fail to finish Carta, he was clearly preparing to but was denied the chance by Gaelio's entry and his timely snatching her away from him. With Julietta, he just flew off.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Third: why keep comparing Orga's death with Kamina's? As far as I see it (because the show isn't over), Orga's death served a different main purpose compared to Kamina. In Kamina's case it was mainly to bolster the confidence of Simon so that he can take the mantle of the Dai Gurren leader. But I doubt, Orga's death was meant for the same thing. Yes, Orga wanted his group to keep moving forward like Kamina did, but I don't think his death was meant so that Mika can took his mantle and lead Tekkadan. Still, I can't really talk about the future that I don't even know. So I guess this topic is suspended at least until next episode or when this season is over.

Because the parallels are obvious, and I'm sure you, too, have been seeing this comparison brought up throughout the show's whole run. You're taking it a bit too literal though. Kamina died for the sake of Simon's becoming a leader. Orga died for the sake of the last shackle his very existence imposed on Mika falling off. Thus, both died for the sake of character development of the main character. That's how it looks now. But yeah, let's wait and see if the last 2 episodes can change anything.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I already answered this question to Skaddix in previous page.
*snip*

See my answer to Sonic above, it's the same here.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

But anyway, it was why, while incredibly sad at seeing him go, I don't think Orga dying will completely doom Tekkadan like I would have thought last season or the beginning of this one.

So, as to how the new leadership will go, I think Eugene will take up the reins as leader, Akihiro will shift into's Eugene's role as second in command. And Chad and Dante will share Akihiro and Shino's old positions while Ride stays as he has been as leader of the younger children, but will probably become a group commander in his own right.

Eugene, Eugene... He's like my 3rd place fav, but I think you guys are swept along with the flow and are overestimating him. He has the makings of a good sub-leader, sure, but there is a damn good reason why he lost the position to Orga and then came to be content with being under him. With the engine behind the development, the change, the evolution of Tekkadan that was Orga no more, they can only truck along now, go on on what's left of the idea, but there won't be anything novel or fresh for them as an organization anymore. Eugene probably can keep it together on the inertia Orga's existence left, because Orga had already banded them together and made them family, but Eugene can't transform or take it to the next level, he can keep it going but can't make it evolve.

So if we ascend from the level of individuals, with Orga gone they've lost the chance to evolve to the next stage as an organization, to become something bigger and to make difference on the world scale. Eugene simply doesn't have what it takes to be a planet scale leader, unlike Orga (as I remember you stating it yourself about Orga, Irenesharda, and I agreed with you back then, and I still agree with that comment). That's why I said here (or maybe not here... well, somewhere) that with Orga, Tekkadan has lost its most bright and big future possibility, left only with the quiet and low profile ones. For some, it might be OK, but... Frankly, none of the other members' lives are worth Orga's, precisely due to those forever lost opportunities (as crude as it sounds the price tags on lives were never equal, and this show stressed it quite a few times).

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

It's the dynamic between Orga and Mika that leads me to think with almost certainty that Mika will die as well.

Well, call me jaded, but I hope you're right. I have a feeling that it won't be the case though.

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

Well, Okada has already stated that she has always wanted Gaelio to be a "what if" for Garma. If Garma's character had lived through Char's betrayal, what would have happened?

So, Gali I think was always supposed to live through Macky's betrayal. I guess you could still call that bad writing about how they had it come about. But it also seemed to have been planned since the beginning.

McGillis for inexplicable reasons not stabbing through the cockpit and not making sure Gaelio is dead was probably planned. But anything after that? No, because only a couple of months ago Ogawa said that what to do with Gaelio was giving the writers major headache (I can provide the source if interested). And I daresay, the result was influenced by his popularity (proof? Newtype and Animage polls, second hand merchandise markets where Gaelio goods go for like 3-5 times their original price)

Originally Posted by Skaddix

I am saying we were robbed out of a real conflict because McGillis carried the idiot Ball and thus Rustal got to show off. While Rustal is no doubt a skilled tactical genius, its not all that impressive when the writers intentionally make it so the other side doesn't even fight at all.

Yeah, McGillis suddenly turning idiot in the head - not just that whole Bael delusion, but also with the way he fought the battle in the Earth orbit, dividing his forces and leaving the least experienced part of his fleet, the young officers, completely exposed ("divide et impera", remember? everyone and their mother, including all of those who know absolutely nothing of tactics and strategy, knows nonetheless this simple quote, this basic rule. Except McGillis, that is. Because he willingly helped Rustal with the first part by kindly diving his fleet for Rustal to come and "impera", duh) - doesn't make me appreciate Rustal's tactical skill. Not when he's aided by massive nerfings at the plot's demand. His side's ever increasing plot armor doesn't help either. It makes this whole affair just laughable.

On the protags' side, only Ride has anything similar to that amount of plot armor. Yeah, I'm actually laughing. These writers.... it's like they're set on providing the most colorful display, with themselves as the stars of it, of why trying too hard isn't guaranteed to result in something worthwhile.

[Dragon_Slayer_X]

Jullitta somehow managed to go toe to toe with Mika in Lupus Rex while preaching nonsense and still survive. And Mika is known to be unable to hold back from killing his opponents. He himself said it's hard to keep the opponents alive.

Iok managed to survive against the MA while making the situation worse, Naze and Amida's Final Attack, Shino's Final Attack, Bael's lovely poke to the cockpit......did i miss something? All due to luck and no freaking skills.

And then there is Gali Gali.........how the hell did he even get away is beyond me. Not to mention his character became even worse.

And the protagonist side is getting killed rather easily or rather in a cheap method.........ASSASSINS

[Skaddix]

You could make the case Mika is worth it. Not that Mika would agree. But this is Gundam and and Ace pilot is valuable. Kudelia use to have case for maybe being worth it. But she has been worthless all season so that is no. Heck if it was pregnant Atra he was defending well it be dumb and sentimental but it make sense from the emotional prospective.

You know who is not worth it under any possible condition. That be Ride. But for some reason Ride has all of Tekkadan's Plot Armor. And its not like this series is afraid about killing kids or civilians.

I think Mika lives gets his baby and Harem. Yes, I am salty...my favorite got uncermionously killed, never got laid and worse of all I had to watch 10 episodes of character assassination where my fav was an incompetent sad sack leading up to that instead of competent charismatic tactical leader.

Sadly....My bigger problem is there is no satisfying fight for Mika even if he goes Berserk. Gali vs McGillis is a grudge match. Juli and Iok are warming the bench after injuries and were never convincing rivals. Rustal is never going to pilot. Seems unlikely McGillis is going to turn on Tekkadan at this point but you cant really put it past these writers. So Gali is the final fight option? God this is such an unsatisfying conclusion on all fronts.

[Dragon_Slayer_X]

It will probably end like Gundam 0083. Mika would probably go out with a bang like Gato......fighting valiantly in Berserk Mode alongside the other members till the bitter end. The parallel is there considering both leaders got killed.

[Skaddix]

So another Tekkadan Character unceremoniously killed by some no names?

Oh boy I just cant wait what a thrilling conclusion.

Should have just had Shino land that shot. And have McGillis go evil or Nobliss be the final big bad. Cliché sure but immensely more satisfying then having the heroes lose crushingly due to Idiot Balls and Jobbing.

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by tdx

That's the fine example of coming up with justifications and filling plot holes the best you can yourself because the show didn't do it for you, Sonic. And I'm through with that ungrateful job. If the show didn't bother, why should I. At this point, I'd rather point out the holes, not cover them up. In the end, what stands is basically this:
This is what's left when chaff is blown away.

She was on Mars, Tekkadan was on Earth. Tekkadan goes away all the time which is an established normalcy this season seeing how they're a hot famous PMC and all. Tekkadan doesn't want her to know or get her involved thus they hid it from her.

I don't know how she could object to a plan, when you know, they didn't want to tell her? She's doesn't work in the same organization this season. She meets up with them to discuss stuff then goes back to work and she expects to be included for that type of stuff. She meets them regularly but as we know, it's pretty easy exclude one person from your plans.

There is no plot hole in this specific example. Others yes but not this one. This doesn't require any specific special explanation, it's the default thing you expect.

Her not objecting a plan she knows nothing about is more or less what I expected her to do unless she's a secret mind reading Newtype or something In fact, if she found out about it that I argue would be the plot hole that needs an explanation.

[Skaddix]

Not really for your argument to work you have to present proof that Tekkadan actively hid it from her. Yes Tekkadan leaves for missions but they never hid a mission from Kudelia before. They got a lot of little kids running around and there is Atra to reliably squeeze for info.

Kudelia visits regularly enough. And its pretty obvious Tekkadan is up to something major when they transfer control of the Orphanage and the Mines to her solely. And all the top brass is gone. There is no instant travel in this universe thus it takes weeks to get to Earth. Plenty of time for Kudelia to make sure Merribit lets her get a call through.

Kudelia is probably the biggest disappointment. And I say that as a massive Orga fan and a bigger fan of Atra/Mika. Sure other Tekkadan members and allies jobbed, made dumb decisions and carried the idiot ball but at least they were trying. Kudelia has tried to do nothing since episode one besides figure out her feelings for Mika.

Hasnt dealt with her dad, didn't deal with Nobliss, didn't gain any political power, didn't motivate the public, etc. After every turn the writers found a way to write her out, marginalize her, and sideline her. She has had no impact not because it logical but because some point the writers just decided they didn't want Tekkadan to Win. So logic be damned will force them to lose no matter what.

[darkone45]

Wow we are still having this discussion ?

[SonicSP]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Not really for your argument to work you have to present proof that Tekkadan actively hid it from her. Yes Tekkadan leaves for missions but they never hid a mission from Kudelia before. They got a lot of little kids running around and there is Atra to reliably squeeze for info.

I haven't rewatched the episode yet but Kudelia more or less said they didn't tell her from what I recall - and she was even extremely disappointed that they didn't since she thought she was closer than that to be called for such important things. They even sent Merribit out to make sure she saw the announcement. It seems to be quite obvious to me, no roundabout thinking is needed here.

Remember that I'm reacting to the accusation that Kudelia didn't bring any objections so I would say that there needs to be proof that they called her to discuss it as opposed to the other way around, which can only happen if she is lying to both us viewers and Merribit in that room. She cannot object to something she doesn't know.

You can make an argument that someone like Yukinojo, Eugene, Merribit, needs to know since they are closely integrated into the organization and are involved in its operations (and thus have opportunities to object) - they operation can't go ahead without them.. Kudelia this season however is more or less an outsider friend that has her own company and operations.

[Skaddix]

Well its not just on Kudelia. I agree but you assume if anyone else had complaints they get all the allies they could get. The issue is we saw zero disagreement which you at least expect from Merribit and/or Yukinojo.

I will agree though that this is hardly the biggest plot hole at least at is relates to Kudelia alone.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by tdx

To me, it means that Ride's learning ability is basically zero (perhaps took too much hits to the head during his CGS days...?). If the kid didn't learn to watch his surroundings and dodge after all the numerous times and people taking damage for him, he never will. Reddit (I think?) even joked about it how Iok and Ride are the impenetrable and immovable personified, and I couldn't have agreed more.

He's young compared to the more senior members like Chad, Dante, etc. He's even younger than Takaki. He's basically the kouhai member that still need a lot to learn. He is good and valiant at charging forward, but still bad at dodging. It's consistent whether you like it or not.

Originally Posted by tdx

He didn't fail to finish Carta, he was clearly preparing to but was denied the chance by Gaelio's entry and his timely snatching her away from him. With Julietta, he just flew off.

Wrong. I'm talking about the island battle where Carta's Graze Ritter was at the mercy of Barbie's Wrench-saw grip. Mika already held her down right there and then and could just waste her with one move of Barbie's feet or the wrench-saw, but he let her go.

Originally Posted by tdx

Because the parallels are obvious, and I'm sure you, too, have been seeing this comparison brought up throughout the show's whole run. You're taking it a bit too literal though. Kamina died for the sake of Simon's becoming a leader. Orga died for the sake of the last shackle his very existence imposed on Mika falling off. Thus, both died for the sake of character development of the main character. That's how it looks now. But yeah, let's wait and see if the last 2 episodes can change anything.

If we have a duo MC, one's death/absence/departure will always heavily affected the other and will automatically resulted in character development of the one left. It's not exclusive to TTGL. Similar case happened in FMA, The X-Files, and even some Tokusatsu shows.

Originally Posted by tdx

See my answer to Sonic above, it's the same here.

Then I can just go back to my previous reply too.

Your argument was "How come Tekkadan not asking about McG's plan?" and my answer was "Tekkadan already know about the plan". In fact, we saw on-screen how Orga & Eugene discussed the said plan. They just don't know about the secret "trump card" because Orga was too rash & believing in McG's plan and just go on with it until it blew up on Orga's face and he punched McG for it. It's really not hard to see.

Also, don't act like you & Skaddix as the only ones who pointed out holes in IBO. Before you doing it, I was already pointing out some holes myself such as the inconsistent/convenient zero-G-mechanic, the impossible half-a-day trip from Saisei to Mars delivering Flauros, the relative ease of Rustal to dupe Gallus, etc. And weirdly enough nobody responded to me when I pointed out those obvious (to me at least) holes and making a big deal out of it.

[Skaddix]

I assume Mika was distracted by Orga and Biscuit.
Your argument if I remember was Mika is soft on Women.
Gali saves Carta the next time and Mika was basically toying with her for maximum pain.
Against Lafter, he got stopped before dealing the killing blow.
His first fight against Julietta he wasn't suppose to try to kill her race to get the pirate.
His last fight he was curbstomping her.

I don't remember who Gallus is....

Yeah sorry if I don't consider Zero G inconsistency and travel time discrepancies as significant as absurd plot armor, idiot balls, PIS, WIS, CIS, etc.

Tdx and I care more about Tekkadan and Their Allies being deprived plot armor (Ride excluded) while Team Rustal (Iok being the worst of the worst) rub their plot armor all in the protags faces. While Rustal gets to be a tactical genius primarily because Tekkadan and Friends aren't even allowed to put up a fight. McGillis carries the Idiot Ball. Orga hasn't used his skill set since the Civil War started. Kudelia was marginalized at every turn and has accomplished zilch since Ep 1.
It be like reading Death Note for it be resolved by L going online and just handing the info to Light. Or Lelouch just deciding he doesn't need to use mind hax Geass at all.

Since when is it okay for the major conflict in a story to be resolved by all the heroes inexplicably performing at far less then their best. While everything goes Aces for the Villains.
Shino Misses, Mika cant stop Julietta in the most critical moment, Orga has no plan, McGillis has a bad plan even moving troops to make it easy for Rustal, and Kudelia of course does nothing. Meanwhile the bad guys enjoy plot armor for all 4 of their main players. And have a plan that works flawlessly.

Also we have totally different definitions of knowing a plan. I say they know there is a plan but I wouldn't really consider McGillis gets Secret Weapon...Makes Speech....Victory a plan or major enough details to consider it due diligence. Or it likely that no one especially Merribit and Yukinojo are going to raise complaints about such scant details. Not to mention McGillis had no contingency plan and Orga/Friends didn't ask about any such plan in advance is absurd. McGillis didn't even plan for the ensuing fight assuming his plan went perfectly. Despite having a pretty good idea that Gali was alive and that Dansliefs were definitely on the table. I mean what faced with overwhelming numbers and Dansliefs as an option Rustal is going to just going to calmly surrender and not use the weapons that easily shred the opposition?

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by tdx

Eugene, Eugene... He's like my 3rd place fav, but I think you guys are swept along with the flow and are overestimating him. He has the makings of a good sub-leader, sure, but there is a damn good reason why he lost the position to Orga and then came to be content with being under him. With the engine behind the development, the change, the evolution of Tekkadan that was Orga no more, they can only truck along now, go on on what's left of the idea, but there won't be anything novel or fresh for them as an organization anymore. Eugene probably can keep it together on the inertia Orga's existence left, because Orga had already banded them together and made them family, but Eugene can't transform or take it to the next level, he can keep it going but can't make it evolve.

So if we ascend from the level of individuals, with Orga gone they've lost the chance to evolve to the next stage as an organization, to become something bigger and to make difference on the world scale. Eugene simply doesn't have what it takes to be a planet scale leader, unlike Orga (as I remember you stating it yourself about Orga, Irenesharda, and I agreed with you back then, and I still agree with that comment). That's why I said here (or maybe not here... well, somewhere) that with Orga, Tekkadan has lost its most bright and big future possibility, left only with the quiet and low profile ones. For some, it might be OK, but... Frankly, none of the other members' lives are worth Orga's, precisely due to those forever lost opportunities (as crude as it sounds the price tags on lives were never equal, and this show stressed it quite a few times).

Well, call me jaded, but I hope you're right. I have a feeling that it won't be the case though.

McGillis for inexplicable reasons not stabbing through the cockpit and not making sure Gaelio is dead was probably planned. But anything after that? No, because only a couple of months ago Ogawa said that what to do with Gaelio was giving the writers major headache (I can provide the source if interested). And I daresay, the result was influenced by his popularity (proof? Newtype and Animage polls, second hand merchandise markets where Gaelio goods go for like 3-5 times their original price)

For the record I think most of you guys are making a mountain out of a molehill. There is no use crying over spilt milk, what's done is done. I don't think placing a bunch of undo hatred on character simply for action that they should have, could have, or would have done, is really that healthy. You guys are beginning to stew.

As for the points about Eugene, yes, I agreed with your sentiment and I still stand by my comments of earlier. However, I have updated my view ever since the last 2-3 episodes.

Now, I'm actually confident that Eugene can step up the plate. Back when he lost the leadership to Orga in the first place, it was obvious that because at that time, he was quite immature. He was always groaning, complaining, flying off the handle, and would rarely stick to his guns in the face of adversity.

However, since then, he has matured a heck of a lot and while not completely on Orga's level as a natural leader, he has learned and studied under the best and is probably the second best option as leader. Also, if you put someone into the fire, they will show their true colors. Eugene now HAS to step up as new leader, that necessity that majorly mature a person or it can break them. I think Eugene will do what is required of him and more as Tekkadan's new leader.

However, again, I agree with my previous comments that Eugene doesn't have Orga's ambition and probably couldn't handle the "king of Mars" position. Tekkadan will, like you say, probably no longer be able to work on the world stage again unless on of the younger kids grows up to be the next Orga, but at least they will be able to keep going until that time.

Yes, sadly Orga was priceless, but his position was always high risk. There was always the chance we were going to lose him. Tekkadan is going to have to evolve without Orga. It might not be able to go to the lofty heights he would have liked, but if they are able to pull through this, they could still make it the family unit that was at the core of what Orga wanted for his people.

As to Gali Gali, perhaps they are both right? Okada wanted to make him Garma 2.0 and yet, even while they decided to bring him back to life, they had a hard time and couldn't figure out how to get him from that point to his final confrontation with McGillis.

While Garma and Gali are similar, there are some major differences between the two, and so trying to get them from point to point would be different for each character's case. And because of that, they really didn't have anything for Gaelio to do. Also, his obtuseness in staying with Rustal is probably also related to them making him like Garma.
Garma would have never turned against his family either, even if he wasn't nearly as bad as his elder siblings. Gaelio doesn't have elder siblings, but he does have an "older brother" who saved him. So like Garma, his loyalty will still be with his "family" even if he personality-wise, not as bad as the rest.

Originally Posted by Dragon_Slayer_X

You are missing my point. Yes some of them did try to make their own decision or can think for themselves as i have mentioned. But it mostly comes down to "Beat the crap out of the enemy or die trying" for most of them without thinking anything about the after effects. That was Orga's job.

Orga while being reckless made the main decisions and thought about the future. Eugene could be good leader but even he is lacking. Chad put way too much trust on the betrayer guy.....forgot his name already, we all saw how that went. Orga had a vision, a goal...the rest of Tekkaden belongs to where Orga is.

Tekkaden is more or less a mob organization, with Orga as it's head. Yes some members do provide support, physical or mental but nobody is good enough to replace him or think like him. The body won't survive without the brain after all......

It's quite sad in a way, Tekkadan could never really become free. They are always bound by something or someone. Not to mention 2 episodes are very less time for Tekkadan to suddenly change their lifelong thinking.

I still don't agree. Yes, Eugene can never be Orga, but he's your best runner-up. Chad was just obeying orders with someone Teiwaz had sent to them. When all the stuff went down with Galan, he would have probably done a much better job that Takaki simply because he wouldn't have let Radice walk all over him and would have insisited on talking to Orga. However, he got taken out by the bomb and so was too incapacited to do anything. That's not his fault.

Yes, Orga had the vision and goal and he is the founder of Tekkadan. But organizations and ideas and dreams CAN move beyond their founders. Sure it will be hard, but it can be done.

Teiwaz was more of the space mob. Tekkadan is more of a mercenary group. They did gain some mafia like qualities simply because they were allied with Teiwaz, but at their heart they have pretty much always been a PMC.
And I think, while losing Orga will be a gigantic blow to them, Tekkadan will be able to go on.

[Skaddix]

Oh so exciting they killed the Ambiguously Brown Dude MC to develop the Blonde White Guy. So exciting....Can you feel the sarcasm dripping. I have to wait what 20 years to be at this point again in Gundam. So don't u ****ing tell me to stop ******* about split milk. Especially not after I had to sit through 10 episodes of Pure **** before this oh so great death.

[tdx]

Originally Posted by SonicSP

Remember that I'm reacting to the accusation that Kudelia didn't bring any objections so I would say that there needs to be proof that they called her to discuss it as opposed to the other way around, which can only happen if she is lying to both us viewers and Merribit in that room. She cannot object to something she doesn't know.

Episode 33 doesn't count anymore? She knew, that's an undeniable fact, and should have had an idea of what to expect. If only the writers didn't decide to crap on her by assassinating her character and restricting her to the role of a stupid third wheel. Well, Skaddix basically said all there is to say on that, and a lot more concisely than I can, so.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

He's young compared to the more senior members like Chad, Dante, etc. He's even younger than Takaki. He's basically the kouhai member that still need a lot to learn. He is good and valiant at charging forward, but still bad at dodging. It's consistent whether you like it or not.

Oh yes, youth excuses everything, doesn't it, heh. Even when you're a child soldier for all your life and your very life depends on your ability to recognize danger, dodge it and know when to scram. Don't give me that crap anymore please, I'm seriously tired of these excuses trying to justify the bad writing. I get what they tried to do there, that "protecting the future that lies with the youngest" cliche (and Orga is apparently not young enough for them, duh, even if he's like only still a teen himself, lol), but it just wasn't handled convincingly or well, in any sense. Crude as crude goes, in fact, and I refuse to believe there were no better ways to go about it because there clearly were.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Wrong. I'm talking about the island battle where Carta's Graze Ritter was at the mercy of Barbie's Wrench-saw grip. Mika already held her down right there and then and could just waste her with one move of Barbie's feet or the wrench-saw, but he let her go.

Alright then. He didn't finish Carta the first time around, I agree. We can even make an excuse that it was because he probably was too focused on Orga, on Biscuit dying and what was going on with them. But he was hellbent on finishing Carta upon their second meeting. So hellbent that he shocked even Orga. And how many times did this cold killer fail to finish off Julietta by now? What excuses does he have? I'll tell what - he has none. Because the show provided none.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

If we have a duo MC, one's death/absence/departure will always heavily affected the other and will automatically resulted in character development of the one left. It's not exclusive to TTGL. Similar case happened in FMA, The X-Files, and even some Tokusatsu shows.

Exactly. It's something that's used not so seldom, and TTGL made the best use of it. And as I've repeated several times already and thought I made it exceedingly clear, my problem is the point at which they decided to pull this off. I was among those who expected Orga to die in s1 for Mika's development. Back then there was time for that. Now? 2 episodes! 2 episodes is all that's left! It's pointless as pointless goes, it's killing for the sake of killing at this point, and I have to agree with the person who wrote that it's almost like they wrote themselves into a corner and don't know what else to do with their characters, so yeah, let's just kill them, it's the answer to everything in Gundam anyway.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Your argument was "How come Tekkadan not asking about McG's plan?" and my answer was "Tekkadan already know about the plan". In fact, we saw on-screen how Orga & Eugene discussed the said plan. They just don't know about the secret "trump card" because Orga was too rash & believing in McG's plan and just go on with it until it blew up on Orga's face and he punched McG for it. It's really not hard to see.

My argument wasn't restricted to that only. In fact, I wasn't going case-by-case, I made sure to put a more encompassing meaning behind that post and point out that them not asking for any details even though it's life and death for them is only one problem among a pile of others compounding and snowballing (they were listed off already), stretching the suspension of disbelief beyond capacity.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Also, don't act like you & Skaddix as the only ones who pointed out holes in IBO. Before you doing it, I was already pointing out some holes myself such as the inconsistent/convenient zero-G-mechanic, the impossible half-a-day trip from Saisei to Mars delivering Flauros, the relative ease of Rustal to dupe Gallus, etc. And weirdly enough nobody responded to me when I pointed out those obvious (to me at least) holes and making a big deal out of it.

That was not my intention, but since you're now defending these same holes so adamantly, it comes off sounding as such, I guess.

Until about the midpoint, I had hopes that maybe it would improve from there, like s1 had low points like the Brewers but got better at Dorts, but the closer we were getting to the end of this season, the less I could trick myself into seeing only the good and believing that the holes would get patched up or made up for. And with this arc, with what they have done with a number of characters irrespective of their affiliation, the limit of my entropy has been reached and I can't do it anymore, because forget improving, it's just going downhill faster than ever.

[Skaddix]

Its been a while since I read FMA but I am pretty darn sure Edward and Alphonse were both alive at the end. Unless you mean Al getting trapped in the suit which since he was still active doesn't really count as killing off part of a duo.

IBO and IF combine for a pretty bad weekend of TV for me.

[Irenesharda]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Oh so exciting they killed the Ambiguously Brown Dude MC to develop the Blonde White Guy. So exciting....Can you feel the sarcasm dripping. I have to wait what 20 years to be at this point again in Gundam. So don't u ****ing tell me to stop ******* about split milk. Especially not after I had to sit through 10 episodes of Pure **** before this oh so great death.

Deep breaths...deep breaths...I really liked Orga too. Do you know how hard it is to have cute black bishie characters that have a brain and aren't just there for simply exotic fanservice? Quite hard, and for a heterosexual female like myself who likes looking at nice things that have a real brain and agency in the story as much as the next girl, it can be rather frustrating. But continuing to be angry isn't going to change things.

And I don't think they killed Orga specifically to develop Eugene. Yes, Eugene will mature because of it, but I also think Orga's death means more than that. He didn't simply get "fridged".

I think perhaps they got rid of Orga for two reasons. One, was to release Tekkadan from its training wheels. The entire second season, Tekkadan has been seperating from its "parental covering". Makanai, Turbines, Teiwaz...all of them have released Tekkadan. I didn't think that release would include Orga too, but it looks like he too must release the fledglings. What Tekkadan will do with their now will be up to them and it will be a very hard road, but it will be their own.

Now if it was that reason alone, I wouldn't think that was a good reason to kill of Orga. But I also think that it might have been because of the Mika and Orga dynamic. Mika has been slated to die for a while and most of us have wondered what one would do without the other, thinking Orga would be left behind. But I think that because they had planned for a while for Mika to die at the end, they had to think of a way for Orga to go too. Orga doesn't usually fight and Mika doesn't let him if he can help it, so it wasn't likely Orga was going to die in battle. He wasn't going to die of a natural death and an accident would have been ridiculous. So, they gave him the death that many a royal and great leader has gotten: assassination.

He was killed for trying to help his family, for living by his ideals, for saving one of his own. He's pretty much a martyr, and its not a bad way to go.
I know you wish things had gone differently and they hadn't had to sacrifice his character in order to get Tekkadan ready for his passing. And what I have had to say probably doesn't help at all. But it's something to consider...

I mean, its done, and unless next week they show him in a magic bath, it's not going to change. So I think rather than wonder how things didn't work and go in circles, we can think about where everything is going to go from here...

[Skaddix]

He didn't accomplish ****. Why didn't accomplish ****? Simple the writers screwed him, Mika, Shino, Kudelia and McGillis to get to this result. Rustal and his side didn't earn ****. Hack Writers served him up a free win by giving all the heroes plenty of Fail and Rustal all the Plot Armor.

We went over this earlier Ride is not more important then Orga. There is no way anyone could possibly make that argument that trading Orga for Ride is a net benefit for Tekkadan or Martian Rights or anything. Beyond Ride not being important or relevant. I don't give two ***** about him

McGillis when he actually had an army sure. Kudelia if they had actually developed her beyond being a third wheel in S2 sure. Mika if they were going into one final decisive fight fine. I even accept Atra sure it be dumb but she is pregnant and there is sentimental reasons. But for Ride GTFO. Its his job to take a bullet for the boss not the other way around.

Its not just how he died pointless and accomplishing nothing. Its the fact that before this death I had to sit through 10 episodes where Orga was a worthless, incompetent, sad sack with none of the charisma or tactical genius that made me like him in the first place. He couldn't get up in the morning without a peptalk. And how did I get through that don't worry it will be like last season after Biscuit. But nope a waste of time.

He was Character Assassinated and then actually Assassinated. So no my burning hatred and rage will not be contained by you and your platitudes.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Skaddix

I assume Mika was distracted by Orga and Biscuit.

We didn't see how she got away on-screen. If you're okay with such assumption, then why you & tdx dissing my assumption that Biscuit's presence has something to do with Orga being more rash? He already like that ever since he joined McG (which nerf him in-story) when the show itself really like to remind us that, yeah, Biscuit's gone -> Orga's alone. Heck, even the characters in-story addressed Orga's rashness. Those are solid foundation for my assumption.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Your argument if I remember was Mika is soft on Women.

No. Not "soft on women". I said it's not the first time Mika "failing" to finish off female opponents for whatever reason.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

I don't remember who Gallus is....

Gaelio's dad. How Rustal was able to dupe him into believing that his son died while also easily borrowing/taking the Kimaris which considered as Bauduin's family heirloom is one of the biggest holes compared to "Orga not pushing to know McG's trump card".

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Yeah sorry if I don't consider Zero G inconsistency and travel time discrepancies as significant as absurd plot armor, idiot balls, PIS, WIS, CIS, etc.

Tdx and I care more about Tekkadan and Their Allies being deprived plot armor (Ride excluded) while Team Rustal (Iok being the worst of the worst) rub their plot armor all in the protags faces.

This pretty much sums it up. People like you & tdx only care about narrative problems when it involves characters that you care about or how it turning the story into the route that you don't want it to go. We are all on the same page about Iok's annoying plot armor. We all know McG received the idiot ball. But where were your protests when Chad and Makanai survived point-blank explosion? While at the same time you're mad about Julieta surviving Rex' stab & chaff explosion. Where were your protests when Takaki was insta-saved by Galan launching straight from his base when Takaki was about to be blown up by enemy's cannon in seconds? While you're up in arms when Julieta was able hit Flauros' dainsleif when she was nearby that area. Where were your protests when Biscuit & Orga (two smartest people in Tekkadan) just waltzed into open area to be chased and swatted by Carta's Graze Ritter in S1? While you're criticizing S2 for having main characters nerfed. That's pretty much cherry-picking.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Orga hasn't used his skill set since the Civil War started.

He did, but McG ruined it and Rustal's forces overwhelmed Tekkadan. That much is obvious.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Kudelia was marginalized at every turn and has accomplished zilch since Ep 1.

Do I have to repeat this again? Kudelia was in the process to make Chryse orphans prosper which is her main goal all along. Emphasize on process here (it's barely, what? A year after S1?). The free school & orphanage that she built are not even the endgame and is already an accomplishment in and of itself.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Since when is it okay for the major conflict in a story to be resolved by all the heroes inexplicably performing at far less then their best. While everything goes Aces for the Villains.
Shino Misses, Mika cant stop Julietta in the most critical moment, Orga has no plan, McGillis has a bad plan even moving troops to make it easy for Rustal, and Kudelia of course does nothing. Meanwhile the bad guys enjoy plot armor for all 4 of their main players. And have a plan that works flawlessly.

Also we have totally different definitions of knowing a plan. I say they know there is a plan but I wouldn't really consider McGillis gets Secret Weapon...Makes Speech....Victory a plan or major enough details to consider it due diligence. Or it likely that no one especially Merribit and Yukinojo are going to raise complaints about such scant details. Not to mention McGillis had no contingency plan and Orga/Friends didn't ask about any such plan in advance is absurd. McGillis didn't even plan for the ensuing fight assuming his plan went perfectly. Despite having a pretty good idea that Gali was alive and that Dansliefs were definitely on the table. I mean what faced with overwhelming numbers and Dansliefs as an option Rustal is going to just going to calmly surrender and not use the weapons that easily shred the opposition?

This is pretty much the same thing you said again and again. See my reply above or before this post or in the episode 48 thread.

Originally Posted by tdx

Oh yes, youth excuses everything, doesn't it, heh. Even when you're a child soldier for all your life and your very life depends on your ability to recognize danger, dodge it and know when to scram. Don't give me that crap anymore please, I'm seriously tired of these excuses trying to justify the bad writing. I get what they tried to do there, that "protecting the future that lies with the youngest" cliche (and Orga is apparently not young enough for them, duh, even if he's like only still a teen himself, lol), but it just wasn't handled convincingly or well, in any sense. Crude as crude goes, in fact, and I refuse to believe there were no better ways to go about it because there clearly were.

Let's go back to the origin of my reply. I replied to people who claimed that it's inconsistent that Ride was unable to dodge the bullets and doing his job as bodyguard when the fact is it's consistent with his character's weakness during this entire season. Whether or not you like that consistency is not my business.

Originally Posted by tdx

Alright then. He didn't finish Carta the first time around, I agree. We can even make an excuse that it was because he probably was too focused on Orga, on Biscuit dying and what was going on with them. But he was hellbent on finishing Carta upon their second meeting. So hellbent that he shocked even Orga. And how many times did this cold killer fail to finish off Julietta by now? What excuses does he have? I'll tell what - he has none. Because the show provided none.

They actually did. Remember how Eugene/Orga called Mika to hurry the F up because the chaff explosion on Hotarubi was gonna blow on that area any second and it's gonna be big? Yeah, Mika just left Julieta there to be caught in the explosion (and he was right, Julia did caught up in the explosion). But by some luck and Gaelio being nearby, Julieta was saved. Plot armor? Yes. Annoying? Yes. But we've had that before quite a number of times. That's the excuse. Is it good? Is it enough? That's up to you.

Originally Posted by tdx

Exactly. It's something that's used not so seldom, and TTGL made the best use of it. And as I've repeated several times already and thought I made it exceedingly clear, my problem is the point at which they decided to pull this off. I was among those who expected Orga to die in s1 for Mika's development. Back then there was time for that. Now? 2 episodes! 2 episodes is all that's left! It's pointless as pointless goes, it's killing for the sake of killing at this point, and I have to agree with the person who wrote that it's almost like they wrote themselves into a corner and don't know what else to do with their characters, so yeah, let's just kill them, it's the answer to everything in Gundam anyway.

I mainly respond to your bolded line. It really depends on how much they need Mika to develop and what meaning Orga's sacrifice was at the end of the story. But since that "end" is still not here, I can't really answer that. But to be honest, I don't have a problem with pointless death as long as the cause was logical because that's already part and parcel of Gundam (and gangster movies).

Originally Posted by tdx

My argument wasn't restricted to that only. In fact, I wasn't going case-by-case, I made sure to put a more encompassing meaning behind that post and point out that them not asking for any details even though it's life and death for them is only one problem among a pile of others compounding and snowballing (they were listed off already), stretching the suspension of disbelief beyond capacity.

For me, there are more things in IBO that stretch my disbelief since season 1 even more than this part that you're complaining about. But I just went with it. I imagine it would be too much work if I list them all to complain about them. The most egregious for me so far is McG's idiot ball, Iok's plot armor, and Biscuit/Orga waltzing into open area like a fool only to be killed by Carta.

Originally Posted by tdx

That was not my intention, but since you're now defending these same holes so adamantly, it comes off sounding as such, I guess.

Until about the midpoint, I had hopes that maybe it would improve from there, like s1 had low points like the Brewers but got better at Dorts, but the closer we were getting to the end of this season, the less I could trick myself into seeing only the good and believing that the holes would get patched up or made up for. And with this arc, with what they have done with a number of characters irrespective of their affiliation, the limit of my entropy has been reached and I can't do it anymore, because forget improving, it's just going downhill faster than ever.

Hmm. I think my answer to Skaddix above can be applied here too. About the cherry-picking.

Originally Posted by Skaddix

Its been a while since I read FMA but I am pretty darn sure Edward and Alphonse were both alive at the end. Unless you mean Al getting trapped in the suit which since he was still active doesn't really count as killing off part of a duo.

Don't want to spoil even more anime here (since we already spoiled TTGL), but see the ending of the first FMA series which then continued in Shambala movie. As you see there was one MC who must deal with the absence of the other MC.

[Skaddix]

Mine is a valid assumption considering Mika was looking directly in that direction.

Gallus wasn't that more on Gali refusing to tell anyone he was alive besides Rustal. They had a fake funeral and everything. So I am not sure why Gallus would think his son was alive. Didn't Gali get "killed" in Kimaris. I assume they just recovered that one and use it for the rebuild.

Name one thing Kudelia did to advance that mission after Ep 1. The mine, orphanage and school were already on the table at the start of the season. She did nothing to advance her mission beyond that. Small steps is fine she made no progress all season. I don't blame her because the writers marginalized her. But Joan D'Arc changed the course of the Hundred's Year War in about 3 years. I am not the one who kept making that comparison the writers did. So sorry if I expect some results from the Maiden of the Revolution.

I don't know anything about the capabilities of the bomb in question which had to get snuck through security. I do know Mika is a savage killing Machine and is not especially noted for him mercy
on a good day much less right after one of his friends dies.

I thought the Biscuit and Orga thing was dumb. And I have watched enough scifi shows to not overly care about travel time discrepancies.

Julietta was getting owned by Mika. And yet somehow with Mika guarding her makes an improvised weapon toss that interrupts Shino...and you don't see the issue with that of course you don't.

I am sorry what brilliant plan did Orga come up with during Arianhord vs Revolutionary Fleet...I will wait.

I be fine with your argument but Julietta is last seen impeding Mika's progress by holding his leg. Ergo he has no reason not to finish her right then and there so she stops doing that before proceeding on. He has to get her off somehow.

Yes so logical. Trained PMC failing against obvious drive by and sneaking around wearing Tekkadan Gear. Nothing to see here perfectly logical. No attempt to blend in whatsoever. Again not just him dying, its being served a **** sandwich for half the season before that.

I don't really think an anime that old constitutes a massive spoiler. Besides we have spoiler tags.