(L) Freezing [Manga]

[DragonOsman]

If the Legendary Pandoras die, even one or two of them, that would mean that the main characters would have to get that much stronger to face whatever killed said Legendary Pandoras. Though if handled well, that could be a good thing - if it does happen (the main characters getting power-ups, I mean).

[GendoAizenPig]

Yeah and that's how it should be. Satellizer, Rana, and Ticy all got hyped up transformations (transcendence) only to get completely outclassed instantly by the Legendary Pandora. It made no sense from a story telling perspective.

I mean Ticy was hyped up as Genetics strongest Pandora and then got her ass kicked by the Busters. Even Chiffon, a Legendary Pandora, said she was the strongest before she died. There was an entire arc focusing on it (The President Election). It was stupid to completely ruin all the build up like that.

What was the point of transcendence? I mean Rana equipping the Valkyrie gear and fighting the two legendary Pandora gives me hope that it wasn't dropped completely, but it was still silly to not even let them show off much at all when they first got it.

You've also got Amelia who was fighting on par with Sawatari who was the strongest Buster. Suna then came in and completely crushed her with that Special Stigmata. Then Arcadia showed up which is supposedly stronger than the Legendary Pandora. Arnette and Elizabeth also got Transcended. Who knows if Roxanne is also still transcended as well. The Valkyrie Unit also seems completely useless.

It's really a mess. There's way too many characters. The last thing the story needed was a completely different dimension full of more of them. Some of them really need to offed. This is supposed to be Satellizer and Kazuya's story.

[Culaio]

if you looked at it as a game then transcendence would be stat boost while valkyrie gear or Plasma Stigmata or Legendary Stigmata System are equipment upgrade, you can overcome stats(including stat boost) with strong enough gear, but as we see with rana if you combine transcendence(stat boost) with valkyrie gear(equipment upgrade) then you can achieve more then transcendence or valkyrie gear alone can.

Also legendary pandora are fundamentally unfit for battle they can switch side at any moment, even gengo realized it, which is why he was planing Ryuuichi to make kids with legendary pandora who would be as powerful but much more stable.

[GendoAizenPig]

That really doesn't work though. Rana started to lose her mind too once she put on the Valkyrie Gear. So if anything she is just as unfit for battle as the Legendary Pandora. Roxanne was mind controlled by that humanoid Nova and forcibly transcended which implies Satellizer and co. wouldn't be immune either.

So basically Arcadia is the only one that might be immune to it which still renders everyone else as useless. I also don't understand why they wouldn't be just as susceptible to it as the Legendary Pandora. Was it explained anywhere? From what I've seen Kazuya is pretty much required for any of them to resist mind control.

Either way it doesn't change the original point. Ever since the Legendary Pandora showed up they've just taken over the story. They also ruined a lot of tension of battles because they're so broken and can literally bring back the dead.

If these Goddesses are stronger than the Busters and Legendary Pandora, Satellizer and the other normal Pandora will need to get a ridiculous power increase to keep up and stay relevant. Which again makes transcendence a complete waste of time.

[DragonOsman]

Kazuya probably just has to give them some kind of "super transcendence" power-up, if there can be such a thing. And this time, make it permanent (if there's doubt that the previous one was permanent).

[GendoAizenPig]

Seems kind of lame if that's what happens. Fighting ghosts to unlock transcendence was super cool and I was really excited to see what would come of it. If Kazuya waving his Jesus hands gives an even stronger power up, it'd be incredibly disappointing. I'm hoping the Legendary Stigmata or Valkyrie gear are the answer to the power gap, but I wouldn't be surprised if what you said is exactly what happens.

Whatever it takes to make Satellizer relevant in fights again is better than nothing though.

[Alhazad2003]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

That really doesn't work though. Rana started to lose her mind too once she put on the Valkyrie Gear. So if anything she is just as unfit for battle as the Legendary Pandora. Roxanne was mind controlled by that humanoid Nova and forcibly transcended which implies Satellizer and co. wouldn't be immune either.

So basically Arcadia is the only one that might be immune to it which still renders everyone else as useless. I also don't understand why they wouldn't be just as susceptible to it as the Legendary Pandora. Was it explained anywhere? From what I've seen Kazuya is pretty much required for any of them to resist mind control.

Either way it doesn't change the original point. Ever since the Legendary Pandora showed up they've just taken over the story. They also ruined a lot of tension of battles because they're so broken and can literally bring back the dead.

If these Goddesses are stronger than the Busters and Legendary Pandora, Satellizer and the other normal Pandora will need to get a ridiculous power increase to keep up and stay relevant. Which again makes transcendence a complete waste of time.

Precisely, what was the point of Transcending if they're immediately beset by enemies that are even stronger than the ones they just managed to overcome? Satellizer, Rana, and Ticy were starting to turn things around against the N2 Novas, then the N3 Nova comes and curbstomps them. This power creep is so out of control it's not even funny, I swear it seems almost as bad, or possibly worse, than Dragon Ball Z. That took several seasons to make most of the heroes, save for Goku and Vegeta, irrelevant. Whereas here, it only takes a few chapters to make humanity's plight completely hopeless until only Author-san can save them. What's the point of the whole school, what's the point of Pandoras in general if the Super Aunties can do it all and more? And even if they are somehow defeated, the damage has been done, and I can see a lot of readers giving up because it's no longer the story they started with. And that's sad.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

That really doesn't work though. Rana started to lose her mind too once she put on the Valkyrie Gear. So if anything she is just as unfit for battle as the Legendary Pandora. Roxanne was mind controlled by that humanoid Nova and forcibly transcended which implies Satellizer and co. wouldn't be immune either.

So basically Arcadia is the only one that might be immune to it which still renders everyone else as useless. I also don't understand why they wouldn't be just as susceptible to it as the Legendary Pandora. Was it explained anywhere? From what I've seen Kazuya is pretty much required for any of them to resist mind control.

Either way it doesn't change the original point. Ever since the Legendary Pandora showed up they've just taken over the story. They also ruined a lot of tension of battles because they're so broken and can literally bring back the dead.

If these Goddesses are stronger than the Busters and Legendary Pandora, Satellizer and the other normal Pandora will need to get a ridiculous power increase to keep up and stay relevant. Which again makes transcendence a complete waste of time.

You have a point there but Rana may be different case, she is unique Type-Maria Pandora so her body may work more similar to kazuha, kazuya and legendary pandora.

Also now that I think about it transcendence may have another, even bigger role then stat boost, give pandora resistance to nova will(that thing that controls legendary pandora), it seems to me that Transcendent Pandora, are less likely to get under nova control then normal pandora, but as we saw with rana it may only increase their resistance to will but it doesnt grant them complete immunity to it, rana using valkyrie gear could increase her power at cost of strengthening will preasure on her.
It does kinda make sense, it is implied in the story that the more nova tissue you have(stigmata) the more susceptible you are to nova will as we see with legendary pandora(Arcadia is something unique and we have no info about her so for now I dont take her into account) and valkyrie gear has stigmata tissue in it, so rana use this stigmatic tissue together with tissue she already had in her body, so she increased amount of nova tissue affecting her body and mind.

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, now that you mention it, Culaio, that's true about the amount of Stigmata (not tissue - that's only for Maria's descendants who were born with Stigmatic bodies; having actual Stigmatic tissue and having implanted Stigmata are different things) in their bodies. Maria's descendants can resist it better, though, it seems. Aside from the Legendary Pandora, if they count as her descendants too. But Kazuya and Arcadia should be able to resist it more, and if Kazuya helped the Pandora, he'd be able to make them immune to the Nova's will no matter how much Stigmata they have.

And I honestly don't mind how Satella and the other Pandora become stronger, just as long as they become strong enough to be relevant again and have a good way to resist a Nova's will (may it be through their own willpower or with Kazuya's help).

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Yeah, now that you mention it, Culaio, that's true about the amount of Stigmata (not tissue - that's only for Maria's descendants who were born with Stigmatic bodies; having actual Stigmatic tissue and having implanted Stigmata are different things) in their bodies. Maria's descendants can resist it better, though, it seems. Aside from the Legendary Pandora, if they count as her descendants too. But Kazuya and Arcadia should be able to resist it more, and if Kazuya helped the Pandora, he'd be able to make them immune to the Nova's will no matter how much Stigmata they have.

And I honestly don't mind how Satella and the other Pandora become stronger, just as long as they become strong enough to be relevant again and have a good way to resist a Nova's will (may it be through their own willpower or with Kazuya's help).

technically both stigmata's and stigmatic tissue are nova tissue so there is similarity but important thing is tissue purity(it was mentioned with legendary pandora system used by Su-Na Lee, it was said that this system has tissue with 50% of the purity), I expect that natural stigmatic tissue(like in bodies of people with stigmatic body or type maria) is much more pure then the of stigmata's used by normal pandora.

Edit: after some info digging I found that legendary pandora use so called Legendary Stigmata which is many times denser then standard stigmata's, also for people worried about trascendent pandora being left behind, you shouldnt worry since a while ago it was shown in story that gengo ordered Scarlett Ohara to create Legendary Stigmata(which as I mentioned above is stigmata used by legendary pandora) for "Transcended Pandora" Satellizer, Rana, Ticy and Roxanne( Elizabeth Mably and Arnett McMillan arent mentioned because it was before they were Transcended).

the fact only Transcended pandora were choosen for those special stigamata can mean one of two things:
-Legendary Stigmata are very costly/time consuming to make so its best to give them to pandora that will be able to achieve most with them
-Transcended pandora will be more likely to resist nova "will" that may come through Legendary Stigmata

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, I forgot about Gengo saying that to Scarlett Ohara before. This does give me hope that the Transcendent Pandora will be more relevant in the future, at least when they finally get those Legendary Stigmata. Though I also vaguely remember Ohara mentioning complications and Gengo saying he doesn't mind the complications.

I think the Transcendent Pandora will need Kazuya with them when they fight after getting the Legendary Stigmata. Until stated or shown otherwise, it does seem like having them makes you more vulnerable to a Nova captain's "will".

[GendoAizenPig]

@Alhazad2003

Normally I'd say you were right, but I don't think a lot of people really care about the story in this manga. A lot of users don't contribute to plot discussion on this very forum. They only come to comment when something lewd happens. It's really kind of sad.

I really don't think most of part 2 of the this manga has been written well at all. I mean there have been tiny bits of good here and there, but the overall arcs have all been weaker. I still like the story, but I wish it'd get back on track.

@Culaio/DragonOsman

I remember it being said that the Legendary Stigmata were made for Satellizer, Ticy, Rana, and Roxanne too. It's gives me slight hope that there was some planning going on in all of this nonsense.

The only thing I can guess about why Kazuya and Arcadia are immune to mind control is that their stigmata bodies are commander quality and commander type Nova can't control each other. That does bring up the question of why the Legendary Pandora also aren't commander quality even though they were made from Maria as well.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

@Alhazad2003
@Culaio/DragonOsman

I remember it being said that the Legendary Stigmata were made for Satellizer, Ticy, Rana, and Roxanne too. It's gives me slight hope that there was some planning going on in all of this nonsense.

The only thing I can guess about why Kazuya and Arcadia are immune to mind control is that their stigmata bodies are commander quality and commander type Nova can't control each other. That does bring up the question of why the Legendary Pandora also aren't commander quality even though they were made from Maria as well.

I think you are on to something with commander type Nova, it would actually make sense, especially since gengo said that Kazuya is supposed to lead pandora and and his power after awakening affects pandora mind, kinda like nova will(but gives different feeling)

By the way it was a while since Ive read older chapters so I forgot a lot of stuff but wiki mentions gengo planing originally to awaken his trumph card with legendary stigmata(I dont remember where it was said though), it looks like he was planing to awaken Arcadia with them but in the end he didnt need to sinnce she awakened because of stuff happening with kazuya. If this isnt somekind of speculation by people writing on freezing wiki and it was indeed hinted then author may have planned more then we thought.

[DragonOsman]

We could just go back and read past chapters to verify, no?

But yeah, I do want to know why the Legendary Pandora don't have commander-quality Stigmatic tissue.

[Tachibana]

Originally Posted by GendoAizenPig

The only thing I can guess about why Kazuya and Arcadia are immune to mind control is that their stigmata bodies are commander quality and commander type Nova can't control each other. That does bring up the question of why the Legendary Pandora also aren't commander quality even though they were made from Maria as well.

I was curious about this myself. I'm guessing the reason why Kazuya and Arcadia are immune to brainwashing is because of their occupation. like a form of hierarchy. Both siblings are the zenith of humankind.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by Tachibana

I was curious about this myself. I'm guessing the reason why Kazuya and Arcadia are immune to brainwashing is because of their occupation. like a form of hierarchy. Both siblings are the zenith of humankind.

Wouldnt it be similar for Rana ? I know it was said that she isnt exactly same thing as kazuya but technically she has stigmatic body.

[Tachibana]

Originally Posted by Culaio

Wouldnt it be similar for Rana ? I know it was said that she isnt exactly same thing as kazuya but technically she has stigmatic body.

Rana is a Type-Maria. She was born with Stigma in her body but it's nowhere near as much as Kazuya and Arcadia.

[DragonOsman]

Yeah, but being a Type-Maria should make her superior, shouldn't it? Same for Kazuya's aunts since they're also Maria's descendants. But only Kazuya and Arcadia have the immunity. Why?

[Tachibana]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Yeah, but being a Type-Maria should make her superior, shouldn't it? Same for Kazuya's aunts since they're also Maria's descendants. But only Kazuya and Arcadia have the immunity. Why?

It makes her a unique case, but Rana is an elite Pandora because of it as well. The LPs are overwhelmingly more powerful but are unstable due to their immense power and the strain it puts on they're bodies.

Kazuya and Arcadia are an existence that this phenomenon cannot effect negatively or overcome. If Pandora are like angels than the siblings are like gods. These two are also unique because they were birthed naturally with large stigmatic tissue in their bodies that spread over time.

[Culaio]

Originally Posted by Tachibana

It makes her a unique case, but Rana is an elite Pandora because of it as well. The LPs are overwhelmingly more powerful but are unstable due to their immense power and the strain it puts on they're bodies.

Kazuya and Arcadia are an existence that this phenomenon cannot effect negatively or overcome. If Pandora are like angels than the siblings are like gods. These two are also unique because they were birthed naturally with large stigmatic tissue in their bodies that spread over time.

Actually I would say that Kazuya and Arcadia are more unnatural then type-maria, yes they were born through natural means but technically their stigmatic body comes from "crossbreeding" of human with nova, you cant say that their special body is outcome of evolution, Kazuya's and arcadia's father was technically crossbreed and he passed nova genes to them. its pretty much enhancing species by incorporating genes from another species to that species though crossbreeding.

Currently its type-maria that looks like natural evolution(unless we find out that they also had nova DNA incorporated into their family line) since in freezing zero one character described type-maria as possessing a naturally occurring Stigmatic Body.