High School DxD [LN/M] - Volume 25 Discussion / Poll

[Lucidrago]

I start to wonder in what way the form was nerfed exactly. As it just seems to me that it's just putting a time limit on DxD G. And that's the only thing that was weak about it. Infinity Blaster seems as strong as it was in Volumes 20 and 21.

So maybe Issei just using 'false' in the chant has the form only lasts for a little while just so he doesn't use it that long and die.

[DragonOsman]

It's Pseudo Dragon Deification. And again, he may actually increased the power back to Heavenly Dragon-class although it's currently <= Ddraig. Whether or not he has access to the power of infinity isn't clear, but I'm thinking he does.

[Norn]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

It's Pseudo Dragon Deification. And again, he may actually increased the power back to Heavenly Dragon-class although it's currently <= Ddraig. Whether or not he has access to the power of infinity isn't clear, but I'm thinking he does.

Shouldn't he already be on par with Ddraig before he was sealed? Or more specifically, the full extent of DxD G as he used it against Apophis and later on Trihexa's core? I can only imagine that it will be increasing once Issei achieves true DxD G and gets stability.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

@XFire: It was said that the power output of DxD G mode was drastically lowered and that it'd lost the power of infinity, but that it could be improved through training. And I think it's possible that DxD G mode back then was more powerful than it is now. It was probably equal to Ddraig plus it had access to the power of infinity. Now it it's equal to or below Ddraig's level, though it's debatable whether or not it got that powerful because Ise managed to improve it. And even though it said in Volume 21 that it lost the power of infinity, from the looks of it he might still have it in that form. Since Thanatos's scythe couldn't do anything to his DxD G armor but was able to break the True Queen armor with one hit. Probably because DxD G mode still has the power of infinity even now, except that he's accessing only as much as he can handle. And it was also said that it's constantly increasing (in Volume 24). Back when he first got Dragon Deification, he had to borrow additional power from Ophis. I don't know if he still has to do that, but once the power of infinity inside Ise has increased enough, he probably won't need to borrow any from Ophis anymore.

But anyway, I think we can say that having the power of infinity should've made him more powerful than Ddraig. Before the form was nerfed.

Yeah, I think you're misinterpreting what a "drastic reduction in power" meant. In 22 we see Ise use Pseudo DxD for the first time, and he specifically adds a chant to reduce the time while also mentioning that he could use actual DxD (but it would kill him). That time limit is the reduction in power. He only has enough to maintain it for ten seconds as opposed to the basically endless output he had against Rizeviem and Apophis/Trihexia.

And DxD L, which is more or less equal to DxD G, hasn't been reduced in power. And when Ise sees it in 24, he and Ddraig rate it slightly better than his version despite the supposed reduction. So it's unlikely that there was a massive drop in terms of raw power and ability as opposed to simply a limit on the time he could use it.

Also his Infinity Blaster in 22 is specifically noted to be firing aura with the power of infinity.

And it wasn't until Ise and Vali were using DxD that they could handle Ddraig/Albion's ultimate abilities at all. That was the point that they broke into HD-class themselves.

Also, minor nitpick, but.....

Without the slightest hesitation, Apophis spewed out darkness from his mouth! I used an infinite Dragon Shot to counterattack — my Dragon Shot was pushed back, and I was hit by Apophis’ darkness! —A portion of the infinite armour was melted! What happened!? I was able to easily beat down Rizevim in this state, but I’m still getting hit by Apophis’ attacks!

[I told you so before. He is already Heavenly Dragon-class.]

I see now, Ddraig! In other words, I definitely can’t be careless!

Ddraig does in fact use the term "Heavenly Dragon-class" in reference to Apophis, and that was what he meant when he said "same level" earlier.

Edit: ninja'd by......Lucidrago, of all people. Huh.

But yeah, more or less as he said, the only actual effect Pseudo DxD has on output appears to be time.

Which, considering what Ophis said about needing to be a god to use the same output again, may explain why the divine drink only affected his time limit.

[DragonOsman]

Vali was the one who said that about having to become a God, not Ophis. And I think Ise has to fulfill the conditions presented by Ajuka: use the 8 Mutation Pieces to the fullest and unleash Ophis and Great Red's powers (after awakening Great Red's power I guess), and also have Ophis and Lilith resonate since a large part of the problem he has with True Dragon Deification is that Ophis' power has been split in two.

“Lodged inside your body was the power of infinity, that is, the power of Dragon Deification, and even with the flesh of Great Red, you were originally a human, so it is impossible for you to withstand it. It was then that Ophis came to adjust it, no, it should be said that she received it on your behalf. She stabilised that power to a level that your body and mind could withstand.”

So that’s how it is. Originally, after suffering from the repercussions of Dragon Deification a second time, even if my body…was destroyed, it would not be surprising.

“Well, I can’t use Dragon Deification again huh.”

“If you’re talking about the power output you had during the time when you fought against Rizevim or Trihexa, you won’t be able to use it again unless you become a god. Even my lifespan has been reduced by a lot. But, I also received a blessing from the Dragon God.”

Blessing? A question mark floated above my head. Ophis, who had turned into a beauty answered that question for me

“At that time, you awakened the armour with my power, and you can continue to use that form. But, its power has been decreased by a great extent. However, there is also room for improvement.”

Oh, so I can still change into that red and black streaked armour. However, it won’t have abilities of infinity, and its immense strength has also been decreased. But that is still enough. Even if that power has been reduced, it’s still incredibly strong. At the very least, it’s far above that of my [True Queen] form. And there’s also room for improvement. So it’ll be fine if I just do more training.

“Pseudo Dragon Deification?”

It does sound like the power was lowered, doesn't it? And Ophis said there's still room for improvement, so Ise probably did improve it. Unless Ishibumi retconned the power being lowered. And at that time, Ise also thought that it had lost the power of infinity. So if that's true, and he does have it now, then it's either another improvement or Ishibumi forgot what he wrote in Volume 21.

Also, as for him having no time-limit in Volumes 20 and 21:

—Ise, this state can only be maintained for a very short amount of time.

I see, I only had a very brief amount of time. That could be a few seconds, tens of seconds, or even a few minutes. Regardless of that, it wasn’t long. —That’s because my body was already screaming out. There was a strange power circulating around inside my body. It felt as though my body would be torn apart if I moved even just a little bit. Well, I should hurry up and do something. Right now, I — could definitely do it. I readied my stance as I faced Rizevim. After preparing my stance, I only took a slight step forward. All of a sudden, I had shortened our distance, and was standing directly in front of Rizevim. That bastard didn’t even react. My movements just now were completely beyond his comprehension. I clenched my right fist, and punched him straight in the face. At this time, a voice rang out.

[Lucidrago]

It not being as powerful=having ten second time limit.

The usual DxD G would stay active until Issei was on the brink of death. Pseudo DxD has a limit placed on it in the form of a time limit so Issei doesn't go over his body's limit to the point where it becomes dangerous. So the form wears off when Issei becomes too exhausted to safely use it further as the form is very taxing.

It seems like Ishibumi didn't know in what way to handle the form being nerfed. And in Volume 22 he changed it from Ophis merfing it to Issei nerfing it in the form of a time limit which would leave him heavily exhausted afterwards but still allow him to fight afterward. So he includes the word 'false' in the chant to put a time limit on DxD G. And ten seconds was the limit to which he could use it without suffering intense damage. Like almost dying.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Vali was the one who said that about having to become a God, not Ophis.

Oops. Doesn't change anything, though.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

And I think Ise has to fulfill the conditions presented by Ajuka: use the 8 Mutation Pieces to the fullest and unleash Ophis and Great Red's powers (after awakening Great Red's power I guess), and also have Ophis and Lilith resonate since a large part of the problem he has with True Dragon Deification is that Ophis' power has been split in two.

Uh.

Ophis and Lilith were split when DxD first showed up. Lilith wasn't even on their side yet.

At most that's alluding to future potential for Ise, not reacquiring something he already had.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

It does sound like the power was lowered, doesn't it? And Ophis said there's still room for improvement, so Ise probably did improve it. Unless Ishibumi retconned the power being lowered. And at that time, Ise also thought that it had lost the power of infinity. So if that's true, and he does have it now, then it's either another improvement or Ishibumi forgot what he wrote in Volume 21.

Not really. Time limits have been a consistent indicator of a power limit, and expanding that time limit a demonstration of growth. His actual attack power didn't fall from what we see.

As for infinity, it's possible it just means he won't be constantly projecting the attribute of infinity. Like in his fight with Rizeviem he smashed the SG Canceler because of the power of infinity. But he's still blasting the infinite aura during his attacks, so he just lost the hax part.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Also, as for him having no time-limit in Volumes 20 and 21:

Yeah, that's not a time limit. That's how long Ise can survive in that form. DxD pre-nerf just ran until Ise died or lost all his power. Pseudo deliberately places a stopper on it before that happens.

[DragonOsman]

@Lucidrago: The actual time limit pre-Amrita was 3 minutes. It just decreased the more he moved around and with the more power he used while in that form. And of course using the Infinity Blaster would immediately start the 10 second countdown. The reason it only lasted 10 seconds against Thanatos was because of how much moving around he did and how much power he had to use. Against God-class opponents it'd probably last just 10 seconds or less. Against Maou-class opponents or below it'd be 3 minutes or a bit less than that.

@XFire: What I think Ajuka meant was the problem with DxD was because of that and not something wrong with Ise himself. He can use the genuine Dragon Deification without problems when Ophis and Lilith resonating and when he's already awakened Great Red's power, as well as fulfilled the rest of the aforementioned conditions.

“First of all, Ophis’ retrieved power — Lilith.”

“…You mean I have to borrow power from her?”

Lilith was always at home, either watching TV or playing games, or perhaps busily snacking on various things. Beelzebub-sama continued

“To be more precise, it is required for Ophis and Lilith to resonate, or perhaps for them to coordinate. Based on my examination, you cannot fully use [Dragon Deification] at the moment, not so much because your basic physical abilities are lacking, but because Ophis’ power has been separated and her original strength cannot be fully used.”

I know Ophis and Lilith were already split. The point I'm trying to make is that the main reason for the problems is that Ise can't access all of Ophis' power because of the split.

Anyways. Shiva may not have been as far away from Ophis in terms of raw power as Cao Cao had said, putting him at least close to or at Dragon God-class, but he's still a God. The beings the above or on par with the Two Heavenly Dragons can still be referred to as God-class, it's just that they're above most Gods. And then Great Red, Complete Ophis and Trihexa are above even them.

Edit: Part of the paragraph where he explains about the time limit:

Although my Pseudo-Dragon Deification can utilise an incredible amount of power, it has a time limit. I can maintain the transformation for three minutes, but if I convert that to perform attacks or switch to defence, then the transformation time limit will be reduced. A cannon blast at maximum firepower — if I use ∞ Blaster, the time limit will be reduced even further. From the moment that the bombardment began, a ten second countdown also began, and once it reached zero, Pseudo-Dragon Deification was forcibly lifted.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

@XFire: What I think Ajuka meant was the problem with DxD was because of that and not something wrong with Ise himself. He can use the genuine Dragon Deification without problems when Ophis and Lilith resonating and when he's already awakened Great Red's power, as well as fulfilled the rest of the aforementioned conditions.

I know Ophis and Lilith were already split. The point I'm trying to make is that the main reason for the problems is that Ise can't access all of Ophis' power because of the split.

My point was that he didn't need them to be together for the first two times he used DxD, when it was at full power. Meaning he doesn't need it to equal that state. It's far more likely that doing so will simply increase his power further beyond that original state.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Anyways. Shiva may not have been as far away from Ophis in terms of raw power as Cao Cao had said, putting him at least close to or at Dragon God-class, but he's still a God. The beings the above or on par with the Two Heavenly Dragons can still be referred to as God-class, it's just that they're above most Gods. And then Great Red, Complete Ophis and Trihexa are above even them.

Uh, no? Typhon and Fenrir are both called Heavenly Dragon class beings.

And Shiva specifically is far in excess of anyone else at this point, to the extent that he was meant to fight Trihexia alone after the entire Alliance had fallen. He's in the same group as Ophis, GR, and 666.

Like, on a scale of 1 to 100, the first three register as 100, he clocks in at like 99 or 98, and everyone else is so far below they register as 1. Grouping him with anyone but those three makes no sense.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Edit: Part of the paragraph where he explains about the time limit:

Which more or less confirms Pseudo retains the power of True DxD at the expense of a time limit.

[Lucidrago]

@Xfire Well think about this for a second. Sirzechs, Brahma, Vishnu, and Thor are sealed in the Isolation Barrier Field fighting Trihexa. That's four beings who are confirmed in the Top 10 along with a lot of other powerful gods. And Trihexa isn't being beaten any time soon.

Now Shiva could have been overestimating himself. Maybe he could weaken Trihexa enough to seal it but what tells us the other beings in the Top 10 couldn't? He might be the strongest being excluding Ophis in her prime, Great Red, and Trihexa. But could he actually defeat Trihexa? He said that he wouldn't be able to kill it. He said he could seal it which I assume you would have to weaken him significantly for.

I mean if Shiva was powerful enough to defeat Trihexa then why didn't everyone go to their knees begging Shiva to defeat Trihexa? But maybe that were wary of Shiva bringing destruction to the world as that is what he does.

Just because he's the strongest(excluding a few certain beings) doesn't mean he's as strong as Trihexa. He alone might stand the best chance against Trihexa fighting a one-on-one battle. Actually every Top 10 being might stand a chance against Trihexa. Just because your opponent is more powerful doesn't mean you can't win.

Azazel might have thought 'If we all fail in taking down Trihexa, maybe Shiva can since he's #1.' Maybe Azazel was hoping that Trihexa would be weakened enough by all of their attacks that Shiva could finish him off.

Maybe Shiva is way more powerful than we think. And the Trimurti and Indra(Well all the Top 10) have the power to destroy the world and the God of Destruction himself specializes in destruction. And his hack-level destruction puts him on par with a Dragon God. And Sirzechs is like a god of destruction in his own right which is why he's viewed as a threat by Shiva. And Sirzechs isn't even 1000 years old yet.

But that's just speculation so let's wait.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

@Xfire Well think about this for a second. Sirzechs, Brahma, Vishnu, and Thor are sealed in the Isolation Barrier Field fighting Trihexa. That's four beings who are confirmed in the Top 10 along with a lot of other powerful gods. And Trihexa isn't being beaten any time soon.

Now Shiva could have been overestimating himself. Maybe he could weaken Trihexa enough to seal it but what tells us the other beings in the Top 10 couldn't? He might be the strongest being excluding Ophis in her prime, Great Red, and Trihexa. But could he actually defeat Trihexa? He said that he wouldn't be able to kill it. He said he could seal it which I assume you would have to weaken him significantly for.

Shiva did overestimate himself. In the first meeting before it was awakened he assumed he would be able to kill it himself.

After evaluating it in action he decided the only thing he could do was seal it, because "destruction" wasn't going to be able to finish it off.

However, he still said he would be able to do so at the cost of destroying the world. Meaning that after confirming Trihexia's power himself he could still defeat it in combat despite being unable to actually kill it, or at least damage it sufficiently to seal it away, which in context is effectively the same thing.

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

I mean if Shiva was powerful enough to defeat Trihexa then why didn't everyone go to their knees begging Shiva to defeat Trihexa? But maybe that were wary of Shiva bringing destruction to the world as that is what he does.

Just because he's the strongest(excluding a few certain beings) doesn't mean he's as strong as Trihexa. He alone might stand the best chance against Trihexa fighting a one-on-one battle. Actually every Top 10 being might stand a chance against Trihexa. Just because your opponent is more powerful doesn't mean you can't win.

It was specifically because if Shiva fought it the world would be destroyed. Azazel referred to it as a last case scenario, only to be put into motion after the Alliance had fallen.

There are several Top 10 in there and they are going to need millennia to finish it off. Shiva was going to fight it alone and stick it in a seal after he was done, not lock himself in with it.

And in his conversation with Azazel he's referred to as the "only one" who can take on that role. No one else can do it. Hell, most of the other Top 10 are participating in the first battle. He's stepping in after they're all dead.

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Azazel might have thought 'If we all fail in taking down Trihexa, maybe Shiva can since he's #1.' Maybe Azazel was hoping that Trihexa would be weakened enough by all of their attacks that Shiva could finish him off.

Maybe Shiva is way more powerful than we think. And the Trimurti and Indra(Well all the Top 10) have the power to destroy the world and the God of Destruction himself specializes in destruction. And his hack-level destruction puts him on par with a Dragon God. And Sirzechs is like a god of destruction in his own right which is why he's viewed as a threat by Shiva. And Sirzechs isn't even 1000 years old yet.

But that's just speculation so let's wait.

Why are you equating him with the other Top 10? He's blatantly a special outside the bounds case, no one else comes close to him, same as the Dragon Gods. If Indra was anywhere near him he wouldn't be going through all this trouble gathering forces to fight him.

[syzorst]

Originally Posted by XFire

Shiva did overestimate himself. In the first meeting before it was awakened he assumed he would be able to kill it himself.

After evaluating it in action he decided the only thing he could do was seal it, because "destruction" wasn't going to be able to finish it off.

However, he still said he would be able to do so at the cost of destroying the world. Meaning that after confirming Trihexia's power himself he could still defeat it in combat despite being unable to actually kill it, or at least damage it sufficiently to seal it away, which in context is effectively the same thing.



It was specifically because if Shiva fought it the world would be destroyed. Azazel referred to it as a last case scenario, only to be put into motion after the Alliance had fallen.

There are several Top 10 in there and they are going to need millennia to finish it off. Shiva was going to fight it alone and stick it in a seal after he was done, not lock himself in with it.

And in his conversation with Azazel he's referred to as the "only one" who can take on that role. No one else can do it. Hell, most of the other Top 10 are participating in the first battle. He's stepping in after they're all dead.



Why are you equating him with the other Top 10? He's blatantly a special outside the bounds case, no one else comes close to him, same as the Dragon Gods. If Indra was anywhere near him he wouldn't be going through all this trouble gathering forces to fight him.

I don't know. Indra does need forces because he knows Shiva is more powerful but at the same time you can ask why does Shiva need forces? We know he has Mahabali and he tried to recruit Issei as well. If Shiva is more powerful than the entire Alliance then why need forces against Indra if he can just destroy them all by himself?

[XFire]

Originally Posted by syzorst

I don't know. Indra does need forces because he knows Shiva is more powerful but at the same time you can ask why does Shiva need forces? We know he has Mahabali and he tried to recruit Issei as well. If Shiva is more powerful than the entire Alliance then why need forces against Indra if he can just destroy them all by himself?

Mahabali came to him because he hates Indra. And Ise is connected to Ophis and GR, which by itself would draw Shiva's interest.

Does he actually have anyone else we know of?

[Sparda4]

Shiva likey needs "soliders" for two reasons. 1) he's lazy
2) If he starts fighting he can easily get pissed to the point of opening his third eye. And that's a big no no and he knows this. That's what i'm thinking atleast.

[vietthai96]

Just because he is the last line of the defense doesn't mean he equal to 666, just like he is the last resort, using the logic he could lie about his true power is the same as saying we still not seeing Saitama true power in many vsbattle debate have Saitama in. Shiva don't have any feats or Word of Author directly stated about his power to prove he is on the same table with prime Ophis, GR and 666. The only thing we know is he currently rank 1 of top 10, it doesn't prove anything about him being equal to GR-tier so stop this stupid debate before it become more stupid.

[Norn]

Originally Posted by vietthai96

Just because he is the last line of the defense doesn't mean he equal to 666, just like he is the last resort, using the logic he could lie about his true power is the same as saying we still not seeing Saitama true power in many vsbattle debate have Saitama in. Shiva don't have any feats or Word of Author directly stated about his power to prove he is on the same table with prime Ophis, GR and 666. The only thing we know is he currently rank 1 of top 10, it doesn't prove anything about him being equal to GR-tier so stop this stupid debate before it become more stupid.

We should just acknowledge that some of the classes Ishibumi uses are incredibly wide. GR, Ophis and 666 are all anomalies that can't be classified elsewhere because they're that strong. Shiva is in a similar situation too. We don't need to prove whether he's GR tier or not, because he's a similar case of "we can't place him with the other gods that easily".

[Lucidrago]

Well why did Ophis need people to take on Great Red if she's as powerful as him?

What I'm saying is that Azazel may have been wary of Shiva causing destruction which is why he didn't ask for his help fighting against Trihexa with everyone else, but only in the case that everyone else failed. A last resort measure. As Shiva individually is the strongest being(besides those other guys). Doesn't mean he's stronger than 4 members of the Top 10 combined and the other powerful gods and beings that are fighting Trihexa currently. I'm pretty sure that they're bringing some world-class destruction to Trihexa in that seal as they don't have to worry about destroying the world while in there.

People like to assume that just because someone is powerful means that they can take on everyone alone. Was Shiva ever proven to be that powerful? He's #1 but none of us can prove his power makes DBZ looks like a joke like Trihexa, Ophis (prime), and Great Red. All Ishibumi said was that the Hindu gods in the Top 10 were in the upper ranks and that they had cheat-like abilities.

I'm merely saying that the Top 10 all have a hacked level of power that puts them as the strongest gods/god-class beings on their mythologies. How do we know that couldn't take on Trihexa just as well by themselves? Shiva was a last resort because he's #1.

[DragonOsman]

@vietthai96: Actually, we know that Ophis losing 1/4th of her power made her number 2 with Shiva being number 1 now which means the gap between them before Ophis lost her power may not really have been that big. And notice that XFire also isn't saying that Shiva's equal to Complete Ophis, Great Red and Trihexa but just within their class.

@XFire: I actually think if Ophis before she lost her power was 100, Shiva may have been 95 or 97. As for Shiva recruiting people. He actually is doing this to fight Indra. He knows Indra is gathering an army to fight him, so he's doing the same in response just in case. He also asked Ise to fight under him if he a war breaks out with the Hindu Mythology at the center. And he also asked Rias and the rest of Ise's comrades to participate as well.

From Volume 22 Life.2:

“The existence which sounds like a joke since he has the power of two Dragons that surpasses my strength is seeking for peace more than anything else and is aiming to become a Harem King, huh. …….Fufufu, you’ve taken my interest.”

Shiva who talks to Beelzebub-sama.

“Ajuka, you do remember the condition Azazel gave me, right?”

“……The case where we would prepare anything you ask for, I presume?”

Beelzebub-sama asks him.

Shiva nods.

“Yes, that’s it. ———Sekiryuutei.”

“Eh? Ah, yes?”

Shiva then says it directly to my face.

“———How about you come under me?”

[———!?]

Me and my comrades can only be shocked at this!

Shiva then tells Rias.

“Ah, don’t misunderstand me. I’m not telling him to leave your side, Rias Gremory. If a War breaksout from our mythology as the centre of it then how about he comes to my force? ———That’s what I was getting at. Even having his comrades included in it is fine. If it’s your comrades then they are promising bunch, right?”

“Shiva-sama! But that is!”

Shiva speaks as he stops Beelzebub-sama’s words with his hand.

“The action of Śakra———Indra, increasing his forces in order to defeat me is something you are aware of, right? He is gathering notable fighters under him in order to challenge me. I’m presuming that day will be unexpectedly soon. There is a high chance he will take action in the upcoming tournament. You do know there is Cao Cao and the first Sun Wukong under him, right? Then it’s natural for me to want some amusing pawns under me as well.”

As for Shiva's power. He seems to be at least somewhere close to Great Red and Complete Ophis in terms of raw power and he also has the power to destroy, which is why Ajuka and Azazel came to him to ask him to act as the last line of defense against Trihexa. While this means if Trihexa leaves that dimension it'll have been weakened and then Shiva will have to fight it in a battle and then seal it, if Trihexa would still be at full power Shiva could've still weakened it enough through a battle on the level of world destruction to weaken it enough to seal it. He doesn't have enough raw power to completely defeat it and his "Destruction" also isn't enough to destroy it, but he can still weaken it enough to seal it.

As for how long it'll take those inside the Isolation Barrier Field to come out. Don't forget that in Volume 24, in the chapter "Secret Talks", it was said that they'd already gotten used to fighting Trihexa and that they might be able to come back earlier than originally expected. Here's a quote:

[If someone is to become the husband of my Sona-chan, then they’ll have to pass my groom training course, they have to be stronger than me, and they have to be capable of defeating Sirzechs-chan. I won’t concede on that at all.]

Sirzechs couldn’t help but flinch a bit after listening to Serafall’s words.

[…S-So I’m going to be the opponent for Sona’s groom candidates…. No, since it’s the request of my good friend, I don’t have any reason to refuse….]

In response to this, Azazel bitterly smiled.

[To find a guy like that, isn’t that basically impossible…? The future of the Sitri clan looks pretty bleak….]

Seeing as they were able to fight and speak about the future of their families at the same time, it appeared as though these comrades had already gotten used to fighting against Trihexa. It looked like Trihexa would be defeated even earlier than expected. Azazel and the Maous fought whilst chatting cheerfully, and the former chief god of the Norse mythology Odin, as well as the former chief god of the Greek Mythology Zeus approached them.

It's also mentioned in an earlier Volume as well that due to the exchange of information between both sides, the people on the inside of the barrier field might be able to find a way to beat Trihexa sooner than originally anticipated and that they may be able to come back earlier than planned. So from before, we should've known that there's a chance that it might not really take them millennia to come back.

Edit: One post late.
@Lucidrago: Ophis may have wanted help because she was equal to Great Red before losing her power. If two beings that are exactly equal in terms of raw power fight each other, isn't there greater danger of both of them dying? And then there's also the fact that the world would've been destroyed, though I'm not sure if Ophis cared about that. Also, we've been told that Great Red or Ophis (complete) could've destroyed Trihexa alone and also could've made sure it stayed dead, but it would've been a battle that would've destroyed the world. Shiva can fight Trihexa and defeat it, but he can't make sure it stays dead so the best he can do is weaken it enough to seal it. Also notice that Complete Ophis, Great Red or Shiva could do this alone where it's taking the leader-class people in the barrier all of their combined power to fight that beast. Although it seems like they're used to fighting it now, enough that they can even leisurely talk among themselves and the people outside the barrier and it's even thought that they might defeat Trihexa and come back earlier than originally anticipated.

[Norn]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

@vietthai96: Actually, we know that Ophis losing 1/4th of her power made her number 2 with Shiva being number 1 now which means the gap between them before Ophis lost her power may not really have been that big. And notice that XFire also isn't saying that Shiva's equal to Complete Ophis, Great Red and Trihexa but just within their class.

@XFire: I actually think if Ophis before she lost her power was 100, Shiva may have been 95 or 97. As for Shiva recruiting people. He actually is doing this to fight Indra. He knows Indra is gathering an army to fight him, so he's doing the same in response just in case. He also asked Ise to fight under him if he a war breaks out with the Hindu Mythology at the center. And he also asked Rias and the rest of Ise's comrades to participate as well.

You make the mistake of seeing her loss of power as something linear. It's very easy to confirm that her powers are multiplicative in nature (look no further than the people who have received her power), so I wouldn't be as eager as you to state that her loss of power suddenly means that Shiva was closer to Complete Ophis than we thought. The biggest difference between Shiva and Complete Ophis is that one cannot kill 666 and one can. To suggest that it's a small difference says more about your line of thinking than it does about Shiva or (Complete) Ophis.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Well why did Ophis need people to take on Great Red if she's as powerful as him?

What I'm saying is that Azazel may have been wary of Shiva causing destruction which is why he didn't ask for his help fighting against Trihexa with everyone else, but only in the case that everyone else failed. A last resort measure. As Shiva individually is the strongest being(besides those other guys). Doesn't mean he's stronger than 4 members of the Top 10 combined and the other powerful gods and beings that are fighting Trihexa currently. I'm pretty sure that they're bringing some world-class destruction to Trihexa in that seal as they don't have to worry about destroying the world while in there.

People like to assume that just because someone is powerful means that they can take on everyone alone. Was Shiva ever proven to be that powerful? He's #1 but none of us can prove his power makes DBZ looks like a joke like Trihexa, Ophis (prime), and Great Red. All Ishibumi said was that the Hindu gods in the Top 10 were in the upper ranks and that they had cheat-like abilities.

I'm merely saying that the Top 10 all have a hacked level of power that puts them as the strongest gods/god-class beings on their mythologies. How do we know that couldn't take on Trihexa just as well by themselves? Shiva was a last resort because he's #1.

Ophis didn't actually need people, she was being manipulated the entire time. The Khaos Brigade never actually existed for her.

Those other members of the Top 10 were already fighting. Shiva was to enter battle on the condition they all died. If they had the same level of power as he did, there wouldn't be any point to the whole segment.

Shiva was a last resort because he was the "only one" since GR and Ophis weren't options. None of the other Top 10 were seen as capable of doing so.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

@vietthai96: Actually, we know that Ophis losing 1/4th of her power made her number 2 with Shiva being number 1 now which means the gap between them before Ophis lost her power may not really have been that big. And notice that XFire also isn't saying that Shiva's equal to Complete Ophis, Great Red and Trihexa but just within their class.

@XFire: I actually think if Ophis before she lost her power was 100, Shiva may have been 95 or 97. As for Shiva recruiting people. He actually is doing this to fight Indra. He knows Indra is gathering an army to fight him, so he's doing the same in response just in case. He also asked Ise to fight under him if he a war breaks out with the Hindu Mythology at the center. And he also asked Rias and the rest of Ise's comrades to participate as well.

From Volume 22 Life.2:

The number isn't actually important, the point is that he's completely separate from everyone else and that grouping him with anyone else doesn't make sense.

Also he says he wants some "amusing" pawns, and is very nonchalant about the entire thing, flippantly asking if he wants to bring his companions as well. He's gathering them for lulz, treating the possible conflict as a game at best.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

As for Shiva's power. He seems to be at least somewhere close to Great Red and Complete Ophis in terms of raw power and he also has the power to destroy, which is why Ajuka and Azazel came to him to ask him to act as the last line of defense against Trihexa. While this means if Trihexa leaves that dimension it'll have been weakened and then Shiva will have to fight it in a battle and then seal it, if Trihexa would still be at full power Shiva could've still weakened it enough through a battle on the level of world destruction to weaken it enough to seal it. He doesn't have enough raw power to completely defeat it and his "Destruction" also isn't enough to destroy it, but he can still weaken it enough to seal it.

He was asked to be the last line of defense before the barrier plan was implemented. Ajuka went to him to make sure he didn't interfere with said plan. He was intended as a last resort for if the Alliance lost the original fight.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

As for how long it'll take those inside the Isolation Barrier Field to come out. Don't forget that in Volume 24, in the chapter "Secret Talks", it was said that they'd already gotten used to fighting Trihexa and that they might be able to come back earlier than originally expected. Here's a quote:



It's also mentioned in an earlier Volume as well that due to the exchange of information between both sides, the people on the inside of the barrier field might be able to find a way to beat Trihexa sooner than originally anticipated and that they may be able to come back earlier than planned. So from before, we should've known that there's a chance that it might not really take them millennia to come back.

That just means they're handling it better than expected, its not a giant leap forward. And that there's a chance someone outside will develop a method for damaging 666 more effectively like they did with the Jabberwocky.

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

Edit: One post late.
@Lucidrago: Ophis may have wanted help because she was equal to Great Red before losing her power. If two beings that are exactly equal in terms of raw power fight each other, isn't there greater danger of both of them dying? And then there's also the fact that the world would've been destroyed, though I'm not sure if Ophis cared about that. Also, we've been told that Great Red or Ophis (complete) could've destroyed Trihexa alone and also could've made sure it stayed dead, but it would've been a battle that would've destroyed the world. Shiva can fight Trihexa and defeat it, but he can't make sure it stays dead so the best he can do is weaken it enough to seal it. Also notice that Complete Ophis, Great Red or Shiva could do this alone where it's taking the leader-class people in the barrier all of their combined power to fight that beast. Although it seems like they're used to fighting it now, enough that they can even leisurely talk among themselves and the people outside the barrier and it's even thought that they might defeat Trihexa and come back earlier than originally anticipated.

Ophis didn't actually want help, she was a puppet, remember.