(L+CR) Overlord Season 3

[Sixth]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

But Demi-Urge has shown that he can distinguish between "random outsiders" and "those on his side". Even if he considers most humans as "little insects" like most others from Nazarick do, he still can make the distinction between "random little insects" and "little insects that belong to Ainz-sama".

All the ones Demi-Urge has been treating badly up to now have been "random outsiders" and the one instance he could have back-handedly done something malicious to someone who "belongs" to Ainz, he did NOT treat them badly. If he did, he would have pulled a "prank" that would result in Enri's, Nphrea's and Nemu's meals to have some "minced human body parts" in them. Yet he didn't but rather treated the matter of their meals with sincerity, without assuming that Ainz actually wants to do bad things to them.

For now. He can do that because he has the choice to pick from but what will happen if everything is "on those his side"? He and other bloodlust NPCs would need something to fuel his lust or release his evilness sooner or later. Asking him to stop doing evil things is just like asking random people to stop masturbating or asking TIGER to stop eating meat.

Unless Demiurge went thru a character development and actually start caring about people's lives on his own will, and not because Ainz told him to do so, I really can't see people will happy under the Nazarick rule. It may look peaceful on the surface but I am sure a lot of people will go missing or spirited away on a regular basis and no one will dare to find out why.

[Fwarlord]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

No, people who could see that his actual power far surpassed their own submitted. If he pretends to be weak (as he did against Clementine), he hasn't made a convincing show. That's all it is. Yes, some people are too dumb to see his strength, especially when their blood is up. Like the troll. But for the most part? Hamsuke submitted as soon as Ainz released his aura, the Lizardmen tried to surrender when they saw the Old Guard, the Emperor gave in to all demands as soon as he saw Mare's spell and so on. But very, very few of the deaths he's left in his wake have been at all useful in convincing anyone of anything.

Hamsuke, the lizards and the emperor belong to the rational minority in that world. The majority are corrupt nobles and cocky adventurers. I know you also read the LN but just pretend to have amnesia, let's wait until the end of this season, then we can talk about how the kingdom's nobles react after the open confrontation with him.

Spoiler for Nobles:

Just remind you that they didn't even show any sign of submission even after witnessing his overwhelming power but tried to plot behind his back instead.

Give me one historical example of any utopia being created at all.

Not actual utopia, but the fact that corruption is much more common in 3rd world dictatorships than in 1st world democracies should tell you something about the idea of using bribery and threat to buy corrupt nobles.

While we're at it, give me proof you can't get rid of "corrupt officials" without slaughtering innocents wholesale. Or even evidence it's particularly useful.

I don't know what you are trying to say. If you pay attention to the story, Ainz ACTUALLY try his best to minimize the death of innocent people unless it couldn't be help.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Fwarlord is the one who insisted that
1. Ainz needed the nobles to cooperate.
2. Killing lots of people was somehow helpful for that.

Please don't put words into my mouth and take things out of context, ok? I said Ainz needed the nobles' cooperation (which was counterproductive to the utopia plan) ONLY if he wanted to reform the world peacefully like Endscape suggested. It's not my idea, I just tried to point out the improbability of his plan.

Also, why do you draw such a distinction between non-humans and humans? Why would something be good enough for Nagas or Lizardmen, but not for Humans?

Let me answer this for him. Because demi-humans are much smarter than human in the NW. They know the best course of action is to obey the strong instead of trying to backstab him because of pure racial hatred or meaningless pride.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Or, he could have just opened diplomatic relations normally and sent an invitation. Especially with Fluder already in his pocket.

Sure, because the irrational humans will surely cooperate with the undead. It's not like they will try to assassinate Fluder if he shows admiration to the undead, too, right?

Originally Posted by moridin84

I'm curious about this utopia thing.

So what exactly would this utopia under Ainz look like?

I just have trouble thinking of a society built on absolute obedience to an immortal "god emperor" as a utopia.

I also have trouble imaging a society with humans and monsters working together harmoniously.

I've seen it done it other stories of course but they were more idealistic. Overlord is full of dreadful people, both human and monsters. Can they really get along?

The races under Ainz don't even need to get along. They may still hate each other. It's fine. As long as they obey Ainz's rule and don't try to commit any act he deems a crime. Just like IRL, people may hate each other's guts, but as long as they follow the law and don't try to kill each other, the society remains peaceful.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

You are mixing things here. "Gathering information" is the purpose why Nazarick perform experiments on test subjects. The war of conquest is to bring about an uptopia. They are for two different objectives.

The war of conquest is happening because he can't bring himself to deny the NPC's since they already started it, and since it's an efficient way to make himself famous. The utopia part is merely an afterthought for PR purposes.

That's why I said Ainz's goal was noble. He isn't forced to do it like in the revolutions in our history. He is doing it just because he wants to create peace for all other races and people.

See above. Ainz isn't in the least interested in creating peace for peace's sake. It's PR.

It's pretty hard to do anything other than slaughtering when you are living in a world of dumb, stubborn people who can't understand any language other than that of violence. I know you read the LN, but it looks like you didn't remember how the kingdom's nobles stubbornly refused to believe Ainz's power, until they learnt it with their own body.

Pretty hard does not equal impossible.

Yeah, good luck with that. Because it is very likely that the arrogant, small minded, petty nobles will let you change their way of life and bring about rapid, radical chances that will threaten their rule. It's totally not like they will try their best to suppress those improvement in trade and technology at any cost, including killing their own people who try to spread it or forming alliances to fight you to the last man.

Again, never said it would be easy. But Ainz is uniquely positioned to do this, if he tried it would be possible.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Only because of his race and appearance.
It is repeatedly mentioned that the same people later are shocked that Ainz is far less violent than they expected.

That's because those people never actually see Ainz do anything. The people who have seen Ainz in action are well aware of what he is.

The very fact that Ainz doesn't do violence for its own sake is amazing to them. Racial profiling is a thing, and the novels never stops reminding the reader that the human characters make assumptions about Ainz that are entirely wrong.

Their assumptions are actually correct, it's simply that Ainz doesn't behave like a normal undead, so they're fooled into thinking he's a good person because he puts effort into fooling them.

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

I don't know what you are trying to say. If you pay attention to the story, Ainz ACTUALLY try his best to minimize the death of innocent people unless it couldn't be help.

He doesn't though. He really, really doesn't.

Sure, because the irrational humans will surely cooperate with the undead. It's not like they will try to assassinate Fluder if he shows admiration to the undead, too, right?

Jircniv is smart enough to at least see what's going on first, especially if he's approached in the right way, like with a legion of Death Knights, or a bunch of dragons or something.

The races under Ainz don't even need to get along. They may still hate each other. It's fine. As long as they obey Ainz's rule and don't try to commit any act he deems a crime.

So your idea of a utopia is people being too afraid to speak up because they'll be killed? Sounds like a dystopia to me.

Just like IRL, people may hate each other's guts, but as long as they follow the law and don't try to kill each other, the society remains peaceful.

IRL, people actually have the opportunity to choose their leaders, and to have a voice in what they do.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by moridin84

I'm curious about this utopia thing.

So what exactly would this utopia under Ainz look like?

I just have trouble thinking of a society built on absolute obedience to an immortal "god emperor" as a utopia.

I also have trouble imaging a society with humans and monsters working together harmoniously.

I've seen it done it other stories of course but they were more idealistic. Overlord is full of dreadful people, both human and monsters. Can they really get along?

Simple. Ainz has something most governments can only dream of; infinite amount of free labour that works 24 hours a day, and incorruptible obedient civil servants (who also works 24 hours a day).

To put it bluntly, Ainz's Tomb lives in near Star Trek post-scarcity levels of sustainability. This is due to the bizarre nature of how most evil empires seem to get free resources out of nowhere. Ainz can rule like no other king, because he demands almost nothing from his mortal subjects.

[DemonneoPT]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

I don't know what you are trying to say. If you pay attention to the story, Ainz ACTUALLY try his best to minimize the death of innocent people unless it couldn't be help.

Originally Posted by Endscape

He doesn't though. He really, really doesn't.

I completelly disagree with this. Due to his human memories, Ainz is the only one preventing Nazarick to just murder everyone for fun and create total caos in the New World. He told his NPCs he dislikes killing just because, especially if the victim in question is innocent and did nothing to harm Nazarick to begin with. He even, for the most part, prevents the NPCs to torture them if the killings are actually needed for their plans. Sure the NPCs are pushing their agenda to conquer the world, but Ainz managed to make it in the most peaceful way, all things considered.

I'm not denyng the guy is evil. He is. He does not even feel anything towards humans anymore due to his Role Play avatar settings. Still, he is someone that can be reasoned with, due to his past human life. Otherwise, as an OP undead Overlord, humans would go extinct real quick if not for his isekai shenanigan

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by DemonneoPT

I completelly disagree with this. Due to his human memories, Ainz is the only one preventing Nazarick to just murder everyone for fun and create total caos in the New World. He told his NPCs he dislikes killing just because, especially if the victim in question is innocent and did nothing to harm Nazarick to begin with. He even, for the most part, prevents the NPCs to torture them if the killings are actually needed for their plans. Sure the NPCs are pushing their agenda to conquer the world, but Ainz managed to make it in the most peaceful way, all things considered.

Ainz doesn't go on random massacres (for the most part), yes. But that doesn't equal to him trying to spare innocents. He'll kill innocents in a heartbeat if it benefits Nazarick. Did you forget what he did to the lizardmen? Or the people from the Kingdom Demiurge took?

I'm not denyng the guy is evil. He is. He does not even feel anything towards humans anymore due to his Role Play avatar settings. Still, he is someone that can be reasoned with, due to his past human life. Otherwise, as an OP undead Overlord, humans would go extinct real quick if not for his isekai shenanigan

The extent of Ainz reasoning with people is telling them to submit or die.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

Hamsuke, the lizards and the emperor belong to the rational minority in that world. The majority are corrupt nobles and cocky adventurers. I know you also read the LN but just pretend to have amnesia, let's wait until the end of this season, then we can talk about how the kingdom's nobles react after the open confrontation with him.

Uhm the Emperor not being corrupt? He literally ordered the Tomb to be investigated and put the blame on a Noble (who imho looked a bit like Arche's father?)

Originally Posted by Fwarlord

I don't know what you are trying to say. If you pay attention to the story, Ainz ACTUALLY try his best to minimize the death of innocent people unless it couldn't be help.

You and I must have watched two different versions of the anime then, because in my version he told a certain wolf queen to protect three people and then deliberately set a bunch of trolls ,even the goblins had not so easy time fighting, onto that village just to test whether said wolf queen would actually protect those three people.

If anyone else but those 3 people would have been where Enri was, Lupusregina wouldn't have done shit to save them.

The correct way to make her save everyone she can, and thus also minimize casualties would be "Protect the village but prioritize those three people."

Not only did he endanger everyone in the village for something as stupid as testing whether she'd actually follow orders, he also worded his orders in a way he knew she wouldn't care about anyone else but those 3 at all.

That's not exactly what people commonly understand under the term "minimizing casualties".

And then there is a certain par of Dark elves who basically killed a 30+ Knights for the Lolz, because they 'invaded' the tomb.
Oh and who Orchestrated that invasion again? Guess what it was Ainz. (Demigure doesn't matter much here, as Ainz was the one who allowed the plan to be executed, knowing very well that it would result in a lot of deaths.)

So alone in this arc, the following people died because of him: That noble, at least 30 Knights, all the workers.

And now add thousands(I think it was either 10'000 or 10'000) of people demigure abducted from the city, jsut because he didn't know what to do with them.

Oh here and to compare:

in 1300 A.D. BC Medieval London around had around 80'000 (Today ~ 8.8Million)
in 1754 A.D Vienna had a population of around 175'000 people. (Today~1.8Million)

In other word's in London's case he would have killed at least 1/8th of it's entire population (or more than that if it was actually 100'000).
That is btw without counting adventurers and soldiers....

Yeah totally not evil and totally tries to minimize deaths...

Around 1300 England AND Wales total population was 2.4 Million btw, so yeah 100'00 randomly dying would actually hurt a country. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval_demography ; Note: Its a bit unclear which German Reich it's actually referring to, since this is in terms of medieval it SHOULD be the HRE (of German Nation), as the German Empire existed only for a short time from 1871–1918. However, then it wouldn't make any sense to separate Austria in the statistics as it was a part of the HRE)

[moridin84]

Ainz is evil right? Most of his followers are also evil.

Yet these evil people are going to create a utopia? Ignoring whether it is possible or not, what exactly would motivate them to do so?

And don't say it is more efficient to rule if everyone is happy. It is more efficient to make sure that a large portion of the population are sufficiently satisfied with the situation. In fact, a certain level of unrest is acceptable as along has he has enough military power to suppress it.

Rather than a utopia, it sounds like an "enlightened" evil empire. Like the empire in "A Practical Guide To Being Evil"

[Incest Emblem]

Originally Posted by moridin84

Ainz is evil right? Most of his followers are also evil.

Yet these evil people are going to create a utopia? Ignoring whether it is possible or not, what exactly would motivate them to do so?

And don't say it is more efficient to rule if everyone is happy. It is more efficient to make sure that a large portion of the population are sufficiently satisfied with the situation. In fact, a certain level of unrest is acceptable as along has he has enough military power to suppress it.

I would like to expand this point somewhat.

The details of what the alleged utopia would entail is important. The story establishes firmly that the top Echelons of Nazarick--except for Sebas--are at best devoid of empathy for non-Nazaricks and at worst evil beings who derive pleasure from torturing people. Thus, it is important to find out what kind of world they intend to create, not merely that they have the means of creating that world and ensuring it is run according to their designs.

As for the matter of being efficient, incorruptible, and being post-scarcity, these are attributes that machines possess--and machines generally lack the urge to inflict pain on people as much as efficiency would permit. That has not stopped the majority of machine-run societies from being described as dystopian rather than utopian. A well-run evil dystopia remains an evil dystopia.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Incest Emblem

As for the matter of being efficient, incorruptible, and being post-scarcity, these are attributes that machines possess--and machines generally lack the urge to inflict pain on people as much as efficiency would permit. That has not stopped the majority of machine-run societies from being described as dystopian rather than utopian. A well-run evil dystopia remains an evil dystopia.

Machine based dystopias generally lack any justifications for machines to act like pieces of shit. In general, if anything, most machine based dystopias tend to end up be a lie, with actual humans running the programs while the machines take the blame. Even the Psycho-Pass anime showed that the machine was just a deception. To pretend that the government is truly fair when it isn't.

In short, machines are so good that they are used to shield bad decisions of humans. But that doesn't make the machines bad. That just makes the humans bad.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

You and I must have watched two different versions of the anime then, because in my version he told a certain wolf queen to protect three people and then deliberately set a bunch of trolls ,even the goblins had not so easy time fighting, onto that village just to test whether said wolf queen would actually protect those three people.

The trolls were going to destroy the village, this was what Ainz found out. Ainz attacked the trolls first, turned them into undead as to remove their regeneration, and gave the village training in a manner that they could handle. Ainz 100% saved the village, he just decided to test their defences as well after the fact. Unless you didn't realise the troll attack was already going to happen before Ainz intervened?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Simple. Ainz has something most governments can only dream of; infinite amount of free labour that works 24 hours a day, and incorruptible obedient civil servants (who also works 24 hours a day).

To put it bluntly, Ainz's Tomb lives in near Star Trek post-scarcity levels of sustainability. This is due to the bizarre nature of how most evil empires seem to get free resources out of nowhere. Ainz can rule like no other king, because he demands almost nothing from his mortal subjects.

It's actually a finite amount of free labor. And the Tomb isn't post-scarcity - it requires gold to keep functioning, which is part of the reason Demiurge invaded the capital.

But still, point taken.

[Yan3242]

^i say ainz is not evil but his loyal servant is, 90% of it.

I see ainz as true neutral because many trait he does

- he's fine being do gooder as seen as momon, i dont see him "hate" doing hero stuff or anything like that
- same goes with his hospitality toward carne village and its key people, despite he claim it as "experiment"
- he kill if he must or if the person is indeed guilty, obstructing his destination or provoking him and his allies
- on the other hand, he reward people who do his/her job accordingly and not shy at giving praise to others
- he judge fairly too, as seen in sebas arc. He test sebas loyality, at the same time give place for tuareninya instead of throwing her out from nazarick circle.
- again he ask everyone in nazarick to treat tuareniya fairly.
- the lizard arc pretty much shown him as a just conqueror, no pointless genocide, when the lizard has been conquered and loyal, ainz stop the threat and instantly treat them again.. fairly.

Ainz is like this big boss of the company you work with, he know you well but not overly-friendly with you, he give you compliment, pat on the back or proper reward if you keep doing well. But will not hestitate to punish or scold you if you keep doing bad. But at the same time he also try his best to teach you so you can improve and learn from your previous mistake.

If this is star wars world, ainz probably a light sided sith. honorable and respectable in the eyes of his ally. Fearsome and powerful in the eyes of his enemy.

Basically ainz couldnt care less doing evil or hero stuff, he's more care with the prospect of it. As long there is something good for him (rare item, economic growth, loyal ally, key information, etc), he'll do it, hero or evil be damn

His loyal servant? Well... they are like 200% loyal to ainz, so their allignment is depend on ainz himself actually. But, if there is no ainz, they can do whatever they want.... yeah iam sure they are pure chaotic evil.

[pervypig]

......
....
..
... Holley Smolley...

Reading all these big words like 'Evil', 'Good', 'Loyal', 'Chaotic', 'Neutral', 'Heroic' etc., etc. really does a number on my brain.

Hey guys, how about doing a healthy brain exercise and try to re-read the past 10 or so pages of this thread, and then replace all words with 'good/just' with 'weak', and 'evil/chaotic' with 'strong'? You can interchange the words too if you think 'good=strong' and 'evil=weak'... but when it comes down to it, that really is all it's about, even in RL. The only difference is that, since everyone has access to nukes and reaper-drones these days, "bad PR/pedos/Justin-B/anyone-else-who-disagrees-with-you=evil" while "cute cats/dogs/lolis=good".

It's time to move Beyond Good & Evil, boys and girls...

[Sixth]

"Sasuga Ainz-sama" posters here don't even make sense. First, they were like "LOL, it took you 3 seasons to see that Nazarick is an evil entity?" and now they were like "How dare you to misjudge Sasuga-Ainz-sama? He is not evil. He is a savior of mankind"

[Keila]

Maybe there's just something wrong with me, but if I had to fill Ainz's shoes in the scenario he finds himself to be in I'd pretty much walk the exact path he's taken.

+ He acts for the benefit of friends and family (i.e Nazarick)
+ Non-friends/family are defined by their value and merit (in relation to friends and family) but are otherwise treated indifferently unless they do anything that should have they judged otherwise

[pervypig]

^ I'd say there's nothing wrong at all with you - acting to benefit or protect your closest associates is the most natural of human behavior. Abstract concepts like the all mighty "G" vs "E" are something invented by homeless and family-less people who stick themselves in dark rooms mumbling for 24 hours a day...

For all it's worth, I'd like to highlight a cultural aspect to all these discussion about goodness and badness in the perspective of an asian author. Majority of Asia practice ancestral worship, colored by Confucian/Buddhist values. Individual < Family < Community < State. You won't find anyone calling out Cao Cao or Nobunaga on their brutality because they are the representatives of the State. Wisdom of the rulers equate their Mandate of heaven.

Majority of the West might find this concept alien, but even in highly democratized Asian countries such as Japan and S. Korea, the traditional behavior of the Individual < Family < Community is still so deeply permeated in the society that anyone would be able to empathize with Ainz as long as he consider Nazarick his family (the real Momonga being a loner isn't really the issue here, as long as he is part of the tribe of his friends). In the same way, the author had tried to make his audience empathize with the unfortunate worker who had loli-sisters (but had family-troubles, with parents refusing to waste their resource), it is clear however, that we are MEANT to empathize with Nazarick instead of any other characters introduced - NOT just because Ainz =strong/good/wise/lucky/evil as many tried to make him out to be, but because he's being painted as someone who had the best of his family in his heart even if he had to screw over anyone else to do it.

Well, that's my 2 cents anyway... but I find it more realistic than holding abstract discussions on good vs evil purely based on someone's actions.

[moridin84]

Originally Posted by Keila

Maybe there's just something wrong with me, but if I had to fill Ainz's shoes in the scenario he finds himself to be in I'd pretty much walk the exact path he's taken.

+ He acts for the benefit of friends and family (i.e Nazarick)
+ Non-friends/family are defined by their value and merit (in relation to friends and family) but are otherwise treated indifferently unless they do anything that should have they judged otherwise

So you care about essentially... 10 (guessing on the number of close friends and family you have) people in the world and don't care about anyone else?

You won't find anyone calling out Cao Cao or Nobunaga on their brutality because they are the representatives of the State.

Yes you do. The Romance of the Three Kingdom novels painted Cao Cao as a terrible villain.

[Incest Emblem]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Machine based dystopias generally lack any justifications for machines to act like pieces of shit. In general, if anything, most machine based dystopias tend to end up be a lie, with actual humans running the programs while the machines take the blame. Even the Psycho-Pass anime showed that the machine was just a deception. To pretend that the government is truly fair when it isn't.

That is a very limited view of the issues with a machine-run society--and one that fails to explore the difference between machine and human intelligence by resorting to a conspiracy where humans use machines as cover-up. Many science fiction stories explore the idea of using machines to run the society, addressing issues such as machines making lives too comfortable, machines molding their human masters' behavior from interacting with machines, machines faithfully carrying out directives of helping humans conduct infinite war, or the old classic: machines make humans obsolete in the name of serving humans, etc.

There is a large collection of stories about machine-run or machine-filled societies that do not require human malice or anthropomorphizing the machines. This reduction of machine-run society fictions to collection of stories of fronts for corrupt humans is not accurate, and it fails to encompass the full scope of possibilities given the basic premise.

In short, machines are so good that they are used to shield bad decisions of humans. But that doesn't make the machines bad. That just makes the humans bad.

This, of course, illustrates the problem of using "infinite amount of free labour that works 24 hours a day, and incorruptible obedient civil servants (who also works 24 hours a day)" as a sufficient answer to whether Nazarick will build a utopia: infinite free labor and incorruptible obedient servants will do whatever it is that their masters tell them to do--efficiently and without corruption. If those orders are "build a comfortable farm where you raise humans to be sacrifices so you can use them to reunite with your maker", then the machines will do so, tirelessly and without corruption.

Which returns us to moridin84's original question: What are the design parameters of this utopia that Nazarick allegedly wants to establish? It is not sufficient to answer this question with "Nazarick can see to it that said society is run perfectly according to its parameters".

And frankly, I see it as naive to assume Nazarick's utopia is something the native population would like, given what we know about Nazarick's morals: "Mercy" means dying without an indefinite period of torture; "respect to the dead" means having your body dismembered and used as grafts; Nazarick does nothing for an outsider unless that outsider can bring some benefit to Nazarick; etc.

[pervypig]

^^ Not the modernized interpretations colored by westernized ideals - even when Cao Cao murdered his benefactor Lu Boshe by mistake and quoted as "Rather I bully the rest of the world, than the rest of the world bully me." there are interpretations about the exact meaning of those words to actually mean "I hate the fact that I must protect myself from the rest of the world even if it is by accident."

But contrast this with Lu Bu from the same novels who is painted as the ultimate scoundrel for betraying 2 "foster fathers". Betrayal of family = ultimate sin from the Asian perspective, and you might find that majority of the readers from Japan/Asia find your values of black/white queer.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Keila

Maybe there's just something wrong with me, but if I had to fill Ainz's shoes in the scenario he finds himself to be in I'd pretty much walk the exact path he's taken.

+ He acts for the benefit of friends and family (i.e Nazarick)
+ Non-friends/family are defined by their value and merit (in relation to friends and family) but are otherwise treated indifferently unless they do anything that should have they judged otherwise

You don't have to care about strangers.
That is not the point.
The point is: Are you willing to murder strangers for your own benefit?