Dilemma of a Chinese boy: Torn between conflicting views of Japan

[arias]

Originally Posted by raphaël

Just know that what I'm talking about is not "nonsense"...

I refuse, without stories!

[Yukinokesshou]

Originally Posted by Raphaël

For your information, I'm just going home like... unaccomplished. And that's the worst feeling you could have after trying your best for years to get into Japan, make a living here, and STAY. The kind of feeling that drives you insane...

Je vous comprends: enfin, ce n'est qu'une expérience et rien de plus. Tottemo agaçant desu ne.

I suppose that's what I was trying to get at with all my "xenophobic society" talk: I've heard that you can be welcome to Japan but you can never be one of the Japanese. Well, Raphaël has given us a firsthand confirmation of that impression! (Even if he didn't satisfy Arias's thirst for a good story... )

[arias]

Originally Posted by Yukinokesshou

I suppose that's what I was trying to get at with all my "xenophobic society" talk: I've heard that you can be welcome to Japan but you can never be one of the Japanese. Well, Raphaël has given us a firsthand confirmation of that impression! (Even if he didn't satisfy Arias's thirst for a good story... )

Well, we are all communal and should share online ; ) By the way, I added a mega-addendum to one of my last posts in response to your addendum.. Just wanted to make sure my hard-spent minutes typing up weren't wasted : p

Regardless, raph did PM me but I didn't get anything too juicy.. still sketchy details, but it seems like he's having a hard time. Well. Too bad he's French and not English..

[Yukinokesshou]

Originally Posted by arias

By the way, I added a mega-addendum to one of my last posts in response to your addendum.. Just wanted to make sure my hard-spent minutes typing up weren't wasted : p

The one that ends with "chillax"? I've already read it; I returned from lunch and that was the first thing I saw

Thanks for your hard-spent minutes!!

[aahhsin]

Originally Posted by raphaël

Sorry to be rude, but this is bullshit. On september 11th, all the French newspapers were headlining "Today, we're all New-Yorkers", and this was true. French WERE sorry just like everyone else.

French? 9/11? Where did all this come from? Believe it or not, when I put "N.Y. was bombed", I actually didn't think about 9/11. I just took the most famous city from the East, and the most famous city from the West, and had a scenario if one of the cities was wiped out.

[alpha3six]

I'm joining in late and I just want to say a little in response to the first post.

My parents are quite anti-Japanese. They've always frowned on my interest in childish cartoons and toys, especially Japanese ones.

My personal views about history, politics, and nationalism in Asia don't really have any impact on how I look at anime and everything else as a whole. My Gundam models are made in Japan, but Gundams didn't fight in WWII. When I turn over my other figures and trinkets, I see "Made in China" markings So where's the problem?

[raphaël]

Originally Posted by arias

Regardless, raph did PM me but I didn't get anything too juicy.. still sketchy details, but it seems like he's having a hard time. Well. Too bad he's French and not English..

I keep the juiciest stuff for myself, of course. I don't know if I'm having a hard time. Everyone's saying that's what I was looking for so...

aaahsin, sorry, I misunderstood your post. Still, 9/11 is a good example, i guess. Isn't it?

Yuki, thanks for your post.

alpha, I'll answer your PM later. Now I need to get some food.


I don't know where this thread is going to go. Hope the mods won't interfere. again

[ChainLegacy]

Interesting to hear you have had a tough time in Japan, raphaël... though in all honesty, I'm not surprised. Even going to the American south with a northern accent you can feel like you're not 'one of them'. (Not stereotyping, just an experience I've had in the past.) Maybe one must live in a truly culturally/ethnically diverse environment in order for all kinds to feel 'welcome,' . In this case I am not experienced, but I'd like to think anyone would be welcome here in Massachusetts, living on my home street.

In the end we are all human.

[luchamasta]

Originally Posted by Yukinokesshou

And, food for thought:

Perhaps the Japanese ought to be more accepting of other peoples too. Its xenophobia is pretty infamous in these parts. Ever heard of the "Manga Kenkanryu" (a.k.a. "Hating the Korean Wave")? It's a Japanese manga that's blatantly anti-Korean: see this Wikipedia article.

Such a book would be denied publication in the US or UK, and even if it were published, the author might be arrested on a charge of incendiarism for racial conflict. After all, calling someone a "Paki" in the UK is enough grounds for an arrest. And yet, in Japan, this manga is actually circulated and popular??

Some Korean families have been in Japan for generations and they're still considered "outsiders" by their neighbours!

If Chinese and Koreans should be more accepting of Japanese, then the Japanese ought to do the same for us.

Personally, I think the xenophobic aspect of Japan has little to do with the issue brought up by the OP. But going by your notion of xenophobia, Koreans are as xenophobic as the Japanese, as indicated by the publication of Hyomilryu, or "The Hate Japan Wave". An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. The world is not a happy place.

[Yukinokesshou]

Originally Posted by luchamasta

Personally, I think the xenophobic aspect of Japan has little to do with the issue brought up by the OP. But going by your notion of xenophobia, Koreans are as xenophobic as the Japanese, as indicated by the publication of Hyomilryu, or "The Hate Japan Wave". An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. The world is not a happy place.

Actually, the very same person wrote the OP and brought up the subject of xenophobia. That person is me, of course. Essentially, my thoughts shifted and so did the topic. Haha.

Hyomilru. Heh, Korean retaliation?

Ditto for China. Well, Arias did explain rather well why such sentiments exist (whether the younger generations should continue to embrace such hatred is another matter).

In the end, the PRC is every bit as nationalistic (if not more so) than Japan.

Talking about nationalism, here's another tangent:

Ever heard a soundbite of a North Korean news broadcast? Good god, those North Korean newscasters SHOUT and BELLOW as if they're trying to call up the dead from their graves -_-

[Lambda]

In this sort of case, the principle of universal compassion is most helpful. The main reason humans have feelings such as hatred and the desire for revenge is that, in primitive societies without much in the way of logic or structure, they're necessary for morality to work properly and so for society to function. If someone could kill someone else in such a society, and nobody would hate them or desire revenge for it, then killing others in many situations would be the most efficient way of surviving, and so that's what people would ultimately do, and society wouldn't work, people would live on their own and things would be bad. Hatred served a purpose, in previous societies it was necessary for this goal.

However, it is not necessary any more. Because we have concepts such as the law, and logic. We can punish murderers, not because they are worthy of hate, or because we desire revenge, but because we reason that punishing murderers is necessary to live in a society where people don't get murdered. It is now desireable to extend compassion to all people, since in cases where punitive action is necessary, we can use logic to justify it in terms of our compassion for the victims who would be harmed were this not to take place, rather than needing hatred for such justification.

So there is no conflict between loving Japan, and fully recognising and condemning the atrocities that their armies perpetrated during WWII, and modern phenomena such as revisionist textbooks. Because you can do so not out of hatred for Japan, but out of concern for the possibility of such things happening again, and more people being killed, were you not to condemn such things.

[sanghyun1990]

My family is funny none of my family hate Japan even though my grandparent lived when Japan colonized Korea. Still I hate some of the thing Japan did, like lying about their history or so I heard. I hate what Japan did in WWII rape Korean woman, force Korean to stop using Han gul, and because they needed soldiers they sended Korean civilian to fight still, my parent says we should ingore what happened and move on I think we should but I still have anger toward Japan.

[karasuma]

Originally Posted by Yukinokesshou

Actually, the very same person wrote the OP and brought up the subject of xenophobia. That person is me, of course. Essentially, my thoughts shifted and so did the topic. Haha.

Hyomilru. Heh, Korean retaliation?

Ditto for China. Well, Arias did explain rather well why such sentiments exist (whether the younger generations should continue to embrace such hatred is another matter).

In the end, the PRC is every bit as nationalistic (if not more so) than Japan.

Talking about nationalism, here's another tangent:

Ever heard a soundbite of a North Korean news broadcast? Good god, those North Korean newscasters SHOUT and BELLOW as if they're trying to call up the dead from their graves -_-

I lived in HK too.

Yupe, I agree that PRC is closer to what WWII Japan is than modern Japan. That is not a path it should go. Nationalism is just bad news. You should be proud of your country and your origin, but please.... do it while respecting all other people.

Furthermore, PRC nationalism always tied to Chinese race too. The idea of doing good for your own race is so.. out-dated and exclusive. Country is ok, but not race.

In the end, I wish for a peaceful east Asia where Korean, Chinese. Japanese and otheres all work well together and do great things, and please work hard to find a way to resolve the past ( Just like Europe ).

[Ombrenuit]

The pain and suffering of what any other country inflicted on another can never be taken away. For some the only solution is to hold resentment against the people that lie beneath that tent. Some things are unforgivable, but also we must realize that acts of past men were actions done by individuals. They may have done it in the name of their country, but regardless, in present day Japan, the men and women of that country are not the men who commited the atrocities in China.

War transforms normal people into monsters, but just as the world sees Germany now in a new light, we too must see Japan differently, as countries are always changing. I think the worst feeling in the world is to be hated for something that you had no connection to. Some acts are long dead, yet we still push for the burden to be laid on the children of those that inflicted it.

Yet each child is his own, they do not share the crimes of their parents. Never forget the past, but never allow it to cloud an open mind. We are all free spirits, individuals separate from country, race, religion--stereotypes never apply, and it is a crime itself to bind new generations to actions they never had a hand in.

"Torn between conflicting views of Japan." A view is simply that, a view, a perspective. But you have to find your own view, you cannot live in this world looking through the eyes of another. You must discover what you believe in and what you think individually and not conform to a general viewpoint. If you can do that, you are not just chinese--you are a human being.

[OutPhase]

Originally Posted by sanghyun1990

Still I hate some of the thing Japan did, like lying about their history or so I heard. I hate what Japan did in WWII rape Korean woman, force Korean to stop using Han gul, and because they needed soldiers they sended Korean civilian to fight still, my parent says we should ingore what happened and move on I think we should but I still have anger toward Japan.

Let us not forget that they bombed Pearl Harbor without a word of warning of attack. However, that was over 60 years ago, and we should let the past go, and it appears that Yukinokesshou's father refuses to let go of the past and has a racist view of Japanese people based off the minority who took over and tortured his grandfather. That would be like someone hating all Germans because of the Holocaust and World War II, and it's sad that some people are prejudice against Germans for that.

[Ombrenuit]

Let us not forget that they bombed Pearl Harbor without a word of warning of attack.

*Ring Ring*

FDR: Hello?
Japan: Umm...I hope it's all right...but we're gonna bomb Pearl Harbor in a few hours. Just thought you should know.
FDR:

[arias]

Originally Posted by Ombrenuit

*Ring Ring*

FDR: Hello?
Japan: Umm...I hope it's all right...but we're gonna bomb Pearl Harbor in a few hours. Just thought you should know.
FDR:

Modern conventional warfare has declarations of war before invasion.

[durrem]

Hmm, I know I shouldn't use Hollywood for a history reference (Tora Tora Tora), but didn't Japan intend to declare war just before the attack, but messed up the time zone calculation (or something to do with daylight savings time or something) so actually attacked before the official declaration?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Ombrenuit

The pain and suffering of what any other country inflicted on another can never be taken away. For some the only solution is to hold resentment against the people that lie beneath that tent. Some things are unforgivable, but also we must realize that acts of past men were actions done by individuals. They may have done it in the name of their country, but regardless, in present day Japan, the men and women of that country are not the men who commited the atrocities in China.

War transforms normal people into monsters, but just as the world sees Germany now in a new light, we too must see Japan differently, as countries are always changing. I think the worst feeling in the world is to be hated for something that you had no connection to. Some acts are long dead, yet we still push for the burden to be laid on the children of those that inflicted it.

Yet each child is his own, they do not share the crimes of their parents. Never forget the past, but never allow it to cloud an open mind. We are all free spirits, individuals separate from country, race, religion--stereotypes never apply, and it is a crime itself to bind new generations to actions they never had a hand in.

"Torn between conflicting views of Japan." A view is simply that, a view, a perspective. But you have to find your own view, you cannot live in this world looking through the eyes of another. You must discover what you believe in and what you think individually and not conform to a general viewpoint. If you can do that, you are not just chinese--you are a human being.

The difference between Germany and Japan is that Germany has not try to whitewash it is history books. Everything the good, the bad and the ugly is in there. Japan on the other hand is trying to whitewash its history and has more then occasion put itself as thr victim of WW2. It is hard to forgave someone when they say they are sorry and when your back is turn they stick their tongue out at you.

[DaFool]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

The difference between Germany and Japan is that Germany has not try to whitewash it is history books. Everything the good, the bad and the ugly is in there. Japan on the other hand is trying to whitewash its history and has more then occasion put itself as thr victim of WW2. It is hard to forgave someone when they say they are sorry and when your back is turn they stick their tongue out at you.

The Germans elected Hitler.
The Japanese did not vote for their Emperor.

The German apologetic approach also has problems in that they are trying to get their young people to be proud of their country and come to terms with all its history.