(CR) Granbelm

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Mangetsu has unknown great magic power which was foreshadowed from the very beginning. It is the entire reason she able to participant in this in the first place, as it didn't come out of nowhere it was reasonable for Nene to lose due to her being a the wildcard.

While Mangetsu having great potential is indeed shown in Episode 1 and 2, by Ep 3-4 how well that potential actually translated into combat capability (at least until Mangetsu grows or gets an epiphany) has been established. Ep 5 end effectively uproots that in favor of showing Mangetsu's dark side powers - the fact it was clearly "dark side" was the only saving grace here, so I didn't hate Mangetsu for it, but if not for that, it'll be what 4th Dimension said:

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

Nah, this is rather typical for these kind of characters. She'll continue to suck untill the moment comes when the writter wants her to win, at which point her greater capacity would be used to justify her win. And then she'll continue to suck. Rinse. Repeat.

Originally Posted by Applehell

Besides she no more rights to this than Shingetsu, Anna or whoever else is fighting for what they want. It's survival of fittest and strongest not the most fair here. The Holy Grail Wars is good comparison for this only without being lethal to the players even if emotionally draining for them.

Well, I hadn't watched Fate (I did watch a bit of Iliya and Tohsaka struggling with the BD recorder) but in this situation since no one has more inherent rights to the victory than any other,
nor really strong Rights and Wrongs (though already we don't want Anna or Suishou to win, given their portrayals),
the audience will think the player who showed a bit more thought in her strategy, or was portrayed at a bit of a natural disadvantage and successfully overcome it, or grew due to some internal realization ... is more deserving to win.

In other words, something like Nene. Someone winning due to god-given potential plus a kind of PTSD just doesn't have the same ring to it.

To be fair, I wasn't too peeved, due to the dark reason and also I realize this is a side effect of pushing a character within the limitations of the one-cour format. Still, we can feel for Nene.

[4th Dimension]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

In fact, I'm not sure by this point why Suishou works under Anna even nominally

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

In a previous episode, we see Anna vs. Kuon looks like an even 50/50 fight. But Kuon vs. Suishou looks unbalanced. Could be hinting that Suishou is actually stronger than Anna. Also in a scene where Anna will slap Suishou, she said "smile", then Anna suddenly stopped? Is angry girl somehow also under her control?

I think it's HIGHLY likely that Suishou had a hand in making Anna into a raging berserker that she is. She seems to practically revel in someone suffering which is probably what she did to Anna, stoking her dislike of Shingetsu to ridiculous proportions.

Besides the point, unless Anna's character undergoes a radical change, her character can't really go anywhere, and I doubt the writers would leave the main antagonist of the secondary protag to be just a rage monster forever. So having her rage be partially the deed of Suishou would make sense.

Also note that given some grins and couple lines Speedy girl's older sis said she seems also to have had a... "difficult" personality.

[magnuskn]

Well, that was a lot of screaming. But I guess next episode we might get some actual character development for Anna, so hopefully that will turn down the constant yelling just a tiny bit.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

While Mangetsu having great potential is indeed shown in Episode 1 and 2, by Ep 3-4 how well that potential actually translated into combat capability (at least until Mangetsu grows or gets an epiphany) has been established. Ep 5 end effectively uproots that in favor of showing Mangetsu's dark side powers - the fact it was clearly "dark side" was the only saving grace here, so I didn't hate Mangetsu for it, but if not for that, it'll be what 4th Dimension said:





Well, I hadn't watched Fate (I did watch a bit of Iliya and Tohsaka struggling with the BD recorder) but in this situation since no one has more inherent rights to the victory than any other,
nor really strong Rights and Wrongs (though already we don't want Anna or Suishou to win, given their portrayals),
the audience will think the player who showed a bit more thought in her strategy, or was portrayed at a bit of a natural disadvantage and successfully overcome it, or grew due to some internal realization ... is more deserving to win.

In other words, something like Nene. Someone winning due to god-given potential plus a kind of PTSD just doesn't have the same ring to it.

To be fair, I wasn't too peeved, due to the dark reason and also I realize this is a side effect of pushing a character within the limitations of the one-cour format. Still, we can feel for Nene.

Oh don't get me wrong feel for her too, I also think a lot girls are in similar situation, possibly Mangetsu too with unstable she was when her dark power flaired up. That said this also why the writing was smart enough to setup Mangetsu as unusual person in terms of being a mage to begin with despite her ordinary pleasant deamoner. None of it has gone unnoticed by Shingetsu and I can see it lead her to start investigating Mangetsu.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by 4th Dimension

I think it's HIGHLY likely that Suishou had a hand in making Anna into a raging berserker that she is. She seems to practically revel in someone suffering which is probably what she did to Anna, stoking her dislike of Shingetsu to ridiculous proportions.

Besides the point, unless Anna's character undergoes a radical change, her character can't really go anywhere, and I doubt the writers would leave the main antagonist of the secondary protag to be just a rage monster forever. So having her rage be partially the deed of Suishou would make sense.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, that was a lot of screaming. But I guess next episode we might get some actual character development for Anna, so hopefully that will turn down the constant yelling just a tiny bit.

on the short flashbacks. Anna was shown to be a kind-hearted smiling loli. Something warped her personality. Shingetsu even dreams about it, so it must have been something really bad that happened.

after several episodes, the constant screaming is starting to get dull. Maybe they finally give us the reason why Anna is like that on the next ep.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

on the short flashbacks. Anna was shown to be a kind-hearted smiling loli. Something warped her personality. Shingetsu even dreams about it, so it must have been something really bad that happened.

after several episodes, the constant screaming is starting to get dull. Maybe they finally give us the reason why Anna is like that on the next ep.

Shingetsu keeps saying that Anna can't beat her. I'm beginning to wonder if Suigetsu inadvertently stole some of Anna's powers or something. Anna does seem rather weak compared to the other participants.

[rpgman1]

Originally Posted by Endscape

Shingetsu keeps saying that Anna can't beat her. I'm beginning to wonder if Suigetsu inadvertently stole some of Anna's powers or something. Anna does seem rather weak compared to the other participants.

It would raise suspicion, but Anna is just too focused on getting Mangetsu without being aware that her supposed friend Suishou manipulated her. Suishou also knows about Kuon's sister which is also made me wondering if she only uses others for her own goals in Granbelm.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Applehell

It's not "plot" tho unless I'm misuderstanding your meaning here. Mangetsu has unknown great magic power which was foreshadowed from the very beginning.

It's funny you say that when just a few episodes ago you were arguing she wasn't special and overpowered.

It's survival of fittest and strongest not the most fair here.

Problem is it makes for a very poor "survival of the fittest" story that the protagonist is so stronger than the rest. The only kinda interesting aspect to all this crap is that her power-up looked kinda dark. But other than that, I was rolling my eyes the whole time at how telegraphed and totally devoid of tension the whole thing was despite all the dumb screaming.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

It's funny you say that when just a few episodes ago you were arguing she wasn't special and overpowered.



Problem is it makes for a very poor "survival of the fittest" story that the protagonist is so stronger than the rest. The only kinda interesting aspect to all this crap is that her power-up looked kinda dark. But other than that, I was rolling my eyes the whole time at how telegraphed and totally devoid of tension the whole thing was despite all the dumb screaming.

I don't remember arguing she wasn't powerful inherently. Not sure where you got that. I said the her power wasn't everything and didn't cum-stomp every opponent she came across like what OP characters actually do (see Tatsuya from Mahouka, Krito, SAO most Isekai protags etc}. She trained and struggled plenty. Only at outburst emotions where Mangetsu pushed herself to the limit that she won. Nene did the same thing override's her Armanox weakness turned into a melee machine, but she was simply not as strong. Mangetsu much closer to classic shounen protags like Naruto who had powerful unknown abilities but becasue of lack mastery had trouble controlling them.

If have you an issue that fine but nobody is playing on same playing field here. Mangetsu doesn't have OP satellite lasers that hit anyone from anywhere on battlefield and undetectable cloaking spell that makes it impossible for even Mangetsu to sense her (who supposed to more sensitive towards magic usage than than most) until she revealed herself willingly. Every mage here is spec'd differently that includes power, speed, technique and what have you.

I couldn't careless if was original or not, execution is what matters more to me.

[Kazu-kun]

^ Dude, she has an insta-win buttom. Sure she needs some emotional trigger to make it work, but when it happens, she just wins. You may try to rationalize it however you want but that's the fact of the matter. She's on a whole another level. No matter what the others do, they just can't win, and that's why there is no tension whatsoever despite all the over-dramatic screaming bullcrap.

[Applehell]

An instant win button doesn't get rocked and nearly lose. Moreover Nene would have never gotten to point where she could display her full strength in the first place. If that is what Mangetsu supposed she is to be is poor one. She powerful not infallible which you seem problem no matter explanation. In otherwords the concept is clearly not for you. There no need to rationalize something not there or at the very least you operating a very different definition than mine.

[Kazu-kun]

Like I said, she seems to need an emotional trigger. But that's just a poor attempt by the staff to inject tension where there is none. Once her power-up is activated, she just wins. That's all there is to it.

[Applehell]

If she needs emotional trigger that proves she not OP. An OP person wouldn't need an trigger to get to that point. They would already mastered their full power.

[Kazu-kun]

Not having full control over her power doesn't change the fact she's way overpowered. And my point stands that when she gets the power-up, she just wins. The others can't do anything.

[Applehell]

Which is irrelevant because she has already been several battles where she was on the ropes and she never got tap into her full power unlike everyone else. That matters an because OP character never come close to losing. The interest of watch them in first place to see how OP they actually are. What we saw was potential of how she could be at end of the story which is where she will be OP. Nobody should be shocked she might eventually become the strongest mage out of them, that well setup from the beginning and it often common place for protagonists to end up.

It also worth keeping in mind hat been beating Granbelm is the same as dying in this context so of course from a narrative stand point Mangetsu is not gonna lose. That is fine also there is reason that isn't meta.

[Kazu-kun]

All the mental gymnastics in the world don't change the fact that whenever she gets the power up, she just wins. She's that overpowered. Heck, she's the only one among the current participants to completely defeat others. She's got two "kills" so far. Everyone else has zero. And she managed that without even having full control of her powers. Once she gets her powers under control, it's gonna be a fucking massacre. The other don't stand a chance, at all. That's why there is no point to all this crap.

[Applehell]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

All the mental gymnastics in the world don't change the fact that whenever she gets the power up, she just wins. She's that overpowered. Heck, she's the only one among the current participants to completely defeat others. She's got two "kills" so far. Everyone else has zero. And she managed that without even having full control of her powers. Once she gets her powers under control, it's gonna be a fucking massacre. The other don't stand a chance, at all. That's why there is no point to all this crap.

Mangetsu defeating two participants does not=she gonna defeat everyone else nor does equal being OP in itself. Nene or Shingetsu pointed out last episode there shouldn't be this many mages left at this late stage to begin with so others have been taken out either prior or too many new mages have popped with Mangetsu and now Kuon. Besides she beat Rosa without any kind of power up (and the later basically charged at her). In fact it's not even a power up, it's her own power at max for a brief moment. Yes when she gets full control her Mangetsu most likely be the strongest, but she isn't now and she will have fight more and be pushed further past her limits to get to that level. I'm falling to see why this matters considering this common end point in shounen. It's like complaining the hero will defeat the villain the end. The journey is what matters not the destination.

Franky going by your logic, Naruto and Ichigo OP becasue they could tap into unknown power sources even through they either nearly lost or died in their share of battles (and they needed an emotional trigger in the beginning too until much later). That not what being OP is. Not by modern standards anyway.

Now I can agree if she ends up being the only one beating anyone than it's gonna be problematic and annoying.

At this point it far more interesting to talk about why Mangetsu has this power, it's origin and why manifested like that than complaining that she powerful. It looked she has gone a bit nuts there.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Applehell

Mangetsu defeating two participants does not=she gonna defeat everyone else nor does equal being OP in itself.

The fact that she was the only one to do this, while being a newbie to boot, is what clearly indicates she has the power to defeat everyone.

Honestly, if you can't see how ridiculously overpowered she is, you've got some problems. It's pretty freaking obvious.

[Applehell]

She would have potential do that even without beating those two. This is just proof that Mangetsu hasn't reached the depth of her strength. Whether that is a good thing or not is also another issue because she entirely unstable when she did it. It maybe what Shingetsu is talking about when came to the dangers of magic.

I said she powerful, just not in story damaging way you claim. Again OP characters don't struggle and almost never need to train to get stronger. That is privilege of being OP and the problem with them.

Mangetsu situation is standard shounen, if you don't like that, that is one thing, but it is otherwise fine.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Applehell

I said she powerful, but not in story damaging way you claim.

It's damaging enough since there is no tension. At this point you know whenever it seems she's in trouble, she's just gonna hit the power up button and easily win. They would have to come up with some sort of twist to salvage this.