Shin High School DxD Volume 4 Discussion

[Blazor 98]

How does True DxD G measure up to DxD L?

[godz]

Originally Posted by Blazor 98

How does True DxD G measure up to DxD L?

in my opinion and as it showed in the battle, I felt that issei true DxD and vali DxD L were now the same ... but that is my interpretation and if I was right, now it would be Vali's turn to catch up with the two issei power up.

[Giuseppe1234]

Originally Posted by godz

I sometimes feel that the same thing happened to a pseudo dxd G as aeon balor, in presentation volume (25 and 16) both were broken ... but then in the following bouts they felt more weakened.

And why did the battle of Vali seem inconsistent to you? I am curious what you said ... if the final moment of hades was enough shonen in favor of hades, everyone attacked him and he stayed on his feet until he fell for the attack of vali and issei empowered by ingvild.

Aeon Balor does not feel more weakened, what happened in vol16 was a Berserk mode, in part used even by the same Balor, a such power is too expensive in resistance for Gasper, otherwise he will end to sleep. It is only Gasper that needs time to master a such level, over his possibility now.

I was not referring at the end of the fight, but at the beginning.

Vali was described to move at high speed, a term used even for an Issei BxB (high class), however previously he is mentioned to move at God speed, so high that it is impossible to see him. Usually he uses the speed to take an advantage, going near the opponent to fire an explosion of demoniac power. Not even Crom could see directly him.

But with Hades, he was not taking advantage of this as with Crom, taking distance. Even the fact that he has not used immediately the wyverns, when he has understood that the normal attacks were not enough, when usually he uses them immediately, but we have seen them only at the end.

There is even the fact that Hades could see and deflect easily the aura’s attacks, when not even Crom, a fighter specialised in the close range, with a lot of experience, could not see his attacks, this is even valid for the speed.
At the end, Crom could hit him trough the instinct, while Nezha for the intuitation was able to avoid the aura attacks.

But Hades is not mentioned to have one of them, without count that is a fighter at distance.

[Giuseppe1234]

Originally Posted by Blazor 98

How does True DxD G measure up to DxD L?

I think that in raw power may be superior, counting that Issei could use continually “Boost” to increase the power, while Vali can not use Divide. Even because Issei did not seem to be for now at the level of Indra or Mahabali.

However, in abilities Vali is still superior and have an advantage. At the end they are always heavenly dragon class.

[godz]

Originally Posted by Giuseppe1234

Aeon Balor does not feel more weakened, what happened in vol16 was a Berserk mode, in part used even by the same Balor, a such power is too expensive in resistance for Gasper, otherwise he will end to sleep. It is only Gasper that needs time to master a such level, over his possibility now.

I was not referring at the end of the fight, but at the beginning.

Vali was described to move at high speed, a term used even for an Issei BxB (high class), however previously he is mentioned to move at God speed, so high that it is impossible to see him. Usually he uses the speed to take an advantage, going near the opponent to fire an explosion of demoniac power. Not even Crom could see directly him.

But with Hades, he was not taking advantage of this as with Crom, taking distance. Even the fact that he has not used immediately the wyverns, when he has understood that the normal attacks were not enough, when usually he uses them immediately, but we have seen them only at the end.

There is even the fact that Hades could see and deflect easily the aura’s attacks, when not even Crom, a fighter specialised in the close range, with a lot of experience, could not see his attacks, this is even valid for the speed.
At the end, Crom could hit him trough the instinct, while Nezha for the intuitation was able to avoid the aura attacks.

But Hades is not mentioned to have one of them, without count that is a fighter at distance.

Hades put on a good show, one of the best shown in the top 10 on the list and maybe he can keep the title of strongest non-Hindu God.

it easily repelled the aura attack from vali, something that as previously narrated that aura was considered one of the most powerful attacks of the tournament that even Gods would not stand up well if they received it from the front ... like nezha who had to wear a dress Divine to withstand the impact or crom cruach that was greatly injured when receiving the impacts directly.

hades teleportation is a well broken ability, I mean it doesn't matter much your speed if your opponent can instantly teleport.

And his stamina is incredible too, resisting the strongest attack of vali (which must be equal to infinity blaster + longinus smasher) which was worth enough for issei to consider hades much stronger than angra mainyu.

SHIN DXD 4

"It was when I thought like that. Vali looked forward. I followed his gaze too.

─!

...What! Hades, who received Vali's 'Smasher', was still standing there despite the fact he had received great damage. His clothes were destroyed and although there were cracks everywhere on his skeleton body, he still released a strong godly aura. The depths of his eye sockets shone with a dangerous light.

In this case,​ even Vali's bombardment couldn’t bring him down. As expected, Hades was stronger than Angra Mainyu.

...Because he was a powerful person who was even in the Top 10 of all factions, I guess it was natural. Even now, Hades continued to raise his aura! This...I and Vali could only fight together. I stood at Vali's side and told him.

"We'll do it together."

"...There's no time."

That's right, the time of this operation was limited. Vali too understood that and acknowledged it. Fenrir too, was finally able to shake off​ the binding technique. From the moment Hades was struck by Satan Lucifer Smasher and still standing, as expected, he was unreasonably strong. It was when I and Vali raised our auras."

And the last moment was quite shonen for hades, so you can understand why Le Fay was so opaque in his own volume when all the action and epic moments were taken away by the fights.

"I see. This is [D×D]. These are those who hold the incarnations which can destroy even Gods."

As Hades said such a thing, he raised an immense aura in the staff in his hand and said this.

<But you should remember this. ─Even miracles have limits....and in the end, at that time, what will you do then?─>

now with the death of great red, ¿will this be a prophecy of the future of DxD?

if fay is the lowest of the volume, hades would be at the highest...that would be my final opinion of shin dxd 4

[Giuseppe1234]

Originally Posted by godz

Hades put on a good show, one of the best shown in the top 10 on the list and maybe he can keep the title of strongest non-Hindu God.

it easily repelled the aura attack from vali, something that as previously narrated that aura was considered one of the most powerful attacks of the tournament that even Gods would not stand up well if they received it from the front ... like nezha who had to wear a dress Divine to withstand the impact or crom cruach that was greatly injured when receiving the impacts directly.

hades teleportation is a well broken ability, I mean it doesn't matter much your speed if your opponent can instantly teleport.

And his stamina is incredible too, resisting the strongest attack of vali (which must be equal to infinity blaster + longinus smasher) which was worth enough for issei to consider hades much stronger than angra mainyu.

SHIN DXD 4

"It was when I thought like that. Vali looked forward. I followed his gaze too.

─!

...What! Hades, who received Vali's 'Smasher', was still standing there despite the fact he had received great damage. His clothes were destroyed and although there were cracks everywhere on his skeleton body, he still released a strong godly aura. The depths of his eye sockets shone with a dangerous light.

In this case,​ even Vali's bombardment couldn’t bring him down. As expected, Hades was stronger than Angra Mainyu.

...Because he was a powerful person who was even in the Top 10 of all factions, I guess it was natural. Even now, Hades continued to raise his aura! This...I and Vali could only fight together. I stood at Vali's side and told him.

"We'll do it together."

"...There's no time."

That's right, the time of this operation was limited. Vali too understood that and acknowledged it. Fenrir too, was finally able to shake off​ the binding technique. From the moment Hades was struck by Satan Lucifer Smasher and still standing, as expected, he was unreasonably strong. It was when I and Vali raised our auras."

And the last moment was quite shonen for hades, so you can understand why Le Fay was so opaque in his own volume when all the action and epic moments were taken away by the fights.

"I see. This is [D×D]. These are those who hold the incarnations which can destroy even Gods."

As Hades said such a thing, he raised an immense aura in the staff in his hand and said this.

<But you should remember this. ─Even miracles have limits....and in the end, at that time, what will you do then?─>

now with the death of great red, ¿will this be a prophecy of the future of DxD?

if fay is the lowest of the volume, hades would be at the highest...that would be my final opinion of shin dxd 4

This do not explain how Hades can do it or the stupidity of Vali, while others could only trough instinct and intuition, as for the fact that Vali is a lot of faster than Fenrir. Furthermore the teleport allow you only to avoid a direct attack that you can see, not someone that it is impossible to see, as for the fact that that has not helped Angra.

[godz]

Originally Posted by Giuseppe1234

This do not explain how Hades can do it or the stupidity of Vali, while others could only trough instinct and intuition, as for the fact that Vali is a lot of faster than Fenrir. Furthermore the teleport allow you only to avoid a direct attack that you can see, not someone that it is impossible to see, as for the fact that that has not helped Angra.

hades can be just as quick as the grim reapers, ichie may have only shown instead of explaining hades' abilities ... or to satisfy everyone, ichie may have given this reaction ability to the helm of hades (which as persephone shines due to its absence), but as happened with samael, hades seems that he did not want to use it.

but to be honest, I don't know how to explain your doubt and I'm only satisfied with the answer that hades is strong and top 10 ... as happened with the force of ddraig against typhon or the exclamations of the power of shiva (even hades admitted that even with angra mainyu it would be no match for shiva) and shiva told himself that he was much weaker than ophis prime ... so what kind of monster is Regarzeva.?

[Blazor 98]

Looking at the fact that Hades was able to combat DxD L Vali and 80% Fenrir at the same time, it makes you wonder where do Heavenly Dragon class fits in the top 10. Hades is not even in the upper echelons of the top 10 as that is covered by the Hindu gods. Then you see more and more people able to combat Heavenly Dragons like Mahabali and Nezha despite them not even being in the top 10.

[Giuseppe1234]

Originally Posted by godz

hades can be just as quick as the grim reapers, ichie may have only shown instead of explaining hades' abilities ... or to satisfy everyone, ichie may have given this reaction ability to the helm of hades (which as persephone shines due to its absence), but as happened with samael, hades seems that he did not want to use it.

but to be honest, I don't know how to explain your doubt and I'm only satisfied with the answer that hades is strong and top 10 ... as happened with the force of ddraig against typhon or the exclamations of the power of shiva (even hades admitted that even with angra mainyu it would be no match for shiva) and shiva told himself that he was much weaker than ophis prime ... so what kind of monster is Regarzeva.?

The problem is that there are not explanations, then Hades is only a fighter at middle-long range, not even close. This time Ichi nerfed Vali, even if at this point should know that the logic and coherence do not exist, personally I feel annoyed.

Even Crom is a top 10, specialised in close range, but he can not see Vali and his attacks. The case between Ddraig and Typhon is different, because they are comparable only in raw power, but if Ddraig uses Boost and Penetrate, he is completely superior.

Considering that not even Indra is a serious danger for Shiva, it is normal. However the citation of Cao Cao about his powe may not be more valid, because in that moment ishibumi maybe have not thought to him yet. As for Indra.

The true question about Regalzeva is if he has hax abilities as the brother

[Giuseppe1234]

Originally Posted by Blazor 98

Looking at the fact that Hades was able to combat DxD L Vali and 80% Fenrir at the same time, it makes you wonder where do Heavenly Dragon class fits in the top 10. Hades is not even in the upper echelons of the top 10 as that is covered by the Hindu gods. Then you see more and more people able to combat Heavenly Dragons like Mahabali and Nezha despite them not even being in the top 10.

A DxD L nerfed during the fight, however the heavenly dragons are the strongest without count Hindu Gods, for exemple Ddraig has won easily against Tpyhon, while Issei with P DxD that is inferior to other heavenly dragons won with Vidar BxB.

However, even alone Vali would have won with Hades, Nezha could fight only duo to his weapons and instinct, not in raw power. Since the beginning the technic type ignore the gap of difference. However the rest was able only because issei was nerfed, but they have always losted

[godz]

Originally Posted by Blazor 98

Looking at the fact that Hades was able to combat DxD L Vali and 80% Fenrir at the same time, it makes you wonder where do Heavenly Dragon class fits in the top 10. Hades is not even in the upper echelons of the top 10 as that is covered by the Hindu gods. Then you see more and more people able to combat Heavenly Dragons like Mahabali and Nezha despite them not even being in the top 10.

uff it is difficult to order the top 10, but in my opinion it would be something like that.

top 10 low (like typhon, fenrir, rizevim or fafnir outrage)

medium top 10 (heavenly dragon level, hades and most of the original non-hindu top 10 including issei as vali)

top 10 high (Hindu gods like shiva, brahma, vishnu, indra or for some mahabali, also dragon gods ... I would like to include superdemons like ajuka, sirzechs and baalberith)

guiseppe I do not agree with the nerfed vali, he himself was hurt and his condition is due to the force of hades, the same issei says it and considers it natural that vali has remained that way because hades was a top 10.

In this case,​ even Vali's bombardment couldn’t bring him down. As expected, Hades was stronger than Angra Mainyu.

...Because he was a powerful person who was even in the Top 10 of all factions, I guess it was natural. Even now, Hades continued to raise his aura! This...I and Vali could only fight together. I stood at Vali's side and told him.

"We'll do it together."

"...There's no time."

That's right, the time of this operation was limited. Vali too understood that and acknowledged it. Fenrir too, was finally able to shake off​ the binding technique. From the moment Hades was struck by Satan Lucifer Smasher and still standing, as expected, he was unreasonably strong. It was when I and Vali raised our auras.


don't blame a nerfed for ichie not explaining or giving hades abilities other than basic aura casts.

now to change the subject and not return to a topic of power like the previous time, ajuka is still incredulous if issei turns or does not return maou.

[Itsmepatrick]

Vali's not nerfed in the fight against Hades imo Hades is just shows us that he deserves that spot of the top 10 strongest beings.

I'm curious does Hades have the Soul Reaping abillity of the Grim Reaper or something like Special abilitity?

[godz]

Originally Posted by Itsmepatrick

Vali's not nerfed in the fight against Hades imo Hades is just shows us that he deserves that spot of the top 10 strongest beings.

I'm curious does Hades have the Soul Reaping abillity of the Grim Reaper or something like Special abilitity?

I think that yes, in the first presentation of hades issei he felt that his soul was being pulled and almost all the phrases of villain of hades before fighting refer to the soul ... I do not understand why ichie only made him fight with teleportation and attacks Basics of aura, was afraid to make it very broken or wanted a quick battle.

[saucerKing]

Originally Posted by Giuseppe1234

Rias has been able to take Crom in first place because he visits often Issei’s house for Lilith and Ophis, two character attracted by issei. Second, she gives him bananas as rewards, something introduced by Asia.

It is not so hard recruit Crom, if you give him the possibility to fight strong people he will come, indeed during the DxD operations of shin 1/3, Rias was unable to contact him, remember even Rivezim. Furthermore, Vali has already a team and would prefer fight directly Crom, the same thing for Issei, without count that he would be too strong for them.

Well, Ishibumi gived Crom only to replace issei, otherwise Rias would have losted immediately against Issei and Vali. There are not other special reasons except the plot, as for issei that did not recruit god class beings.

The so abnormal peerage is so strong thanks to Issei’s influence and friendship, as for the various fights that helped them (for example, Valper with the crystal and Freed with Gram for Kiba). Furthermore Asia and Xenovia became devils for issei.

The power is not not the only reason for issei, otherwise at the beginning no one would have followed him. His same existence abnormal, with the personality and crazy grow rate are some reasons, with even a mysterious force that induct you to see how far he will can go. For the truth, I can even understand this. Which Miracles did Rias do?

However Rias has to negotiate with the people, giving them something and are only two, with a Crom that is not so hard, While issei a lot of person only thank to his personality and his abnormal existence, without to want it. They are totally different and not comparable in quantity and way

yes rias got crom on her team because of information asia discovered but that doesn't mean anything, rias using information at hand and convincing him to join is skills in negotiation which is what we are talking about here.

its not so hard yet rias was the one who convinced him, that is a feat worth recognition weather you like it or not, otherwise i can say issei skills at recruiting are shit since everyone pretty much joined on their own will.

yes rias team would lost more if crom wasn't there but we are not discussing rias peerage battle power, we are discussing their ability to attract strong people or sway them to join their side.

yes thanks to issei influence but still recruited by rias, kiba and gasper? recruited by rias, akeno? recruited by rias, rossweisse? by rias again. weather you like it or not rias tendency of attracting powerful people is good, issei is living proof of that.

which miracles rias did? awakening issei BxB, traina, recharging his aura during volume 11, those were not things issei did by himself, stupid as it sounds rias breasts were triggers for miracles so 50% of the credit goes to her. the only real miracle issei did was his rebirth and that wasn't even his doing either, hell all his individual miracles were not even a product of himself but of completely unrelated things he had no intervention in

again, rias recruits people and issei attracts powerful people but 90% of them are more a nuisance than a good thing. shiva only wanted him as a soldier, indra pretty much only wanted a fight and chose him instead of vali because plot, vali was going to chase whoever was had BG etc, most people "attracted" to issei try to fight him which he considers far from good. now tell me who aside of ophis has issei attracted whit positive results. pro tip: if they were on a mission or passed by due to unrelated reasons like xenovia or rossweisse, then they dont count

[syzorst]

Originally Posted by saucerKing

yes rias got crom on her team because of information asia discovered but that doesn't mean anything, rias using information at hand and convincing him to join is skills in negotiation which is what we are talking about here.

its not so hard yet rias was the one who convinced him, that is a feat worth recognition weather you like it or not, otherwise i can say issei skills at recruiting are shit since everyone pretty much joined on their own will.

yes rias team would lost more if crom wasn't there but we are not discussing rias peerage battle power, we are discussing their ability to attract strong people or sway them to join their side.

yes thanks to issei influence but still recruited by rias, kiba and gasper? recruited by rias, akeno? recruited by rias, rossweisse? by rias again. weather you like it or not rias tendency of attracting powerful people is good, issei is living proof of that.

which miracles rias did? awakening issei BxB, traina, recharging his aura during volume 11, those were not things issei did by himself, stupid as it sounds rias breasts were triggers for miracles so 50% of the credit goes to her. the only real miracle issei did was his rebirth and that wasn't even his doing either, hell all his individual miracles were not even a product of himself but of completely unrelated things he had no intervention in

again, rias recruits people and issei attracts powerful people but 90% of them are more a nuisance than a good thing. shiva only wanted him as a soldier, indra pretty much only wanted a fight and chose him instead of vali because plot, vali was going to chase whoever was had BG etc, most people "attracted" to issei try to fight him which he considers far from good. now tell me who aside of ophis has issei attracted whit positive results. pro tip: if they were on a mission or passed by due to unrelated reasons like xenovia or rossweisse, then they dont count

I agree with almost everything you said except a few things. Issej was the one who attracted Rias since it was him who summoned her. Gasper, Kiba, Akeno and even Rias herself all became strong due to Issei's influence as a Heavenly Dragon since before he joined, they were all weak.

Issei ability to attract is actually impressive when you consider the benefits it granted him. The fact Shiva wanted him is beyond impressive. Indra did want to fight but it's because of that, that Issei was able to get stronger and have the ability to summon Ddraig. If he didn't attract Indra's interest than Issei would never have gotten the benefits of Amrita. Indra choosing Issei over Vali makes sense due to Issei is known to make miracles.

[Giuseppe1234]

Originally Posted by saucerKing

yes rias got crom on her team because of information asia discovered but that doesn't mean anything, rias using information at hand and convincing him to join is skills in negotiation which is what we are talking about here.

its not so hard yet rias was the one who convinced him, that is a feat worth recognition weather you like it or not, otherwise i can say issei skills at recruiting are shit since everyone pretty much joined on their own will.

yes rias team would lost more if crom wasn't there but we are not discussing rias peerage battle power, we are discussing their ability to attract strong people or sway them to join their side.

yes thanks to issei influence but still recruited by rias, kiba and gasper? recruited by rias, akeno? recruited by rias, rossweisse? by rias again. weather you like it or not rias tendency of attracting powerful people is good, issei is living proof of that.

which miracles rias did? awakening issei BxB, traina, recharging his aura during volume 11, those were not things issei did by himself, stupid as it sounds rias breasts were triggers for miracles so 50% of the credit goes to her. the only real miracle issei did was his rebirth and that wasn't even his doing either, hell all his individual miracles were not even a product of himself but of completely unrelated things he had no intervention in

again, rias recruits people and issei attracts powerful people but 90% of them are more a nuisance than a good thing. shiva only wanted him as a soldier, indra pretty much only wanted a fight and chose him instead of vali because plot, vali was going to chase whoever was had BG etc, most people "attracted" to issei try to fight him which he considers far from good. now tell me who aside of ophis has issei attracted whit positive results. pro tip: if they were on a mission or passed by due to unrelated reasons like xenovia or rossweisse, then they dont count

There are a difference to attract strong people as Issei and negotiate with them as Rias, because you are putting them as the same thing.

You are speaking life if convict Crom would be someone of so hard, when it enough easily, giving to him strong enemies to fight, as Rivezim did. IÂ’ve never said that his negotiations skills are bad, but YouÂ’re putting too much rope for Crom. otherwise you should say Vasco that is incredible, giving to him something of impossible to refuse or Rossweisse.

The point is not the power of the team, but if your loved Rias has obtained Crom is mainly for the plot, however attract strong people =/ negotiating with them.
The first is what issei does without want it, while Rias only for two characters giving them something to get the help.

Oh, i call it “plot” that made Rias able to being always at the correct place. Akeno was at the point to die, she has not alternative that accept her help, as for Koneko gived by Sirzechs, issei was easily dying, Rias reincarnated him only to save her life, while he was not conscious. For the truth, Issei attracted her. I forgot Kiba that thank for the plot he unlocked BxB, because casually Valper has a crystal after all those years during the fight.

She attracted the most weak Sekiryuutei, that has become so powerful thanks to him self and others characters, not Rias. Casually only thanks to issei, the peerage became so powerful.

Awakening BxB is only merit of Tannin, issei did previously touch his breats, but nothing happened. Tannin gived to issei the conditions to unlock it, the breats were only his motivations, not a miracle. Because without the training, issei could touch them continually, but nothing would have happened. The same thing for Traina, merit of Ajuka, previously owners and his perversion for oppai.
Okay for vol11, but for the rest nothing more.

IÂ’ve never said that Rias skills about negotiating are bad, but only that is totally different and not comparable with issei that attract the people.

Awakening BxB, Traina, CxC, those are examples of miracles, because issei has been able to change the “fate” or the fight, becoming suddenly more powerful when he was losing. Especially the last two are something of incredible that only he as Sekiryuutei did. Wyverns, Penetrate, DxD G, P DxD, AxA, T DxD, all this are others miracles. A miracle for issei is te possibility to change the destiny of a fight, when he is in difficulty.

Only the fact that Shiva wanted him is a big acknowledgement, without count that may give him some benefits. Indra wants to fight him, but without Amrita he would have not been able to fight Vidar and the primordial gods, counting Ddraig convocation. There are always benefits from this. Ajuka that helped him for Traina with the evil pieces. Azazel that has helped issei to become stronger. Without those fights or meets, issei would not so powerful and would have not the same importance and influence.

Vali would have not followed everyone with the BG, because they would have been too normal and weak for him. Only someone able to make miracles would be able to compete with him, as Azazel said because Vali is abnormal being descendant of lucifer and owner of DD. The meet with Vali gived to issei a continuously motivation to become stronger and help in more occasions.

[Crimson_Emperor]

Vali can defeat hades but they have time limit so the others need to join the fight to end him immediately

[saucerKing]

Originally Posted by Giuseppe1234

There are a difference to attract strong people as Issei and negotiate with them as Rias, because you are putting them as the same thing.

You are speaking life if convict Crom would be someone of so hard, when it enough easily, giving to him strong enemies to fight, as Rivezim did. IÂ’ve never said that his negotiations skills are bad, but YouÂ’re putting too much rope for Crom. otherwise you should say Vasco that is incredible, giving to him something of impossible to refuse or Rossweisse.

The point is not the power of the team, but if your loved Rias has obtained Crom is mainly for the plot, however attract strong people =/ negotiating with them.
The first is what issei does without want it, while Rias only for two characters giving them something to get the help.

Oh, i call it “plot” that made Rias able to being always at the correct place. Akeno was at the point to die, she has not alternative that accept her help, as for Koneko gived by Sirzechs, issei was easily dying, Rias reincarnated him only to save her life, while he was not conscious. For the truth, Issei attracted her. I forgot Kiba that thank for the plot he unlocked BxB, because casually Valper has a crystal after all those years during the fight.

She attracted the most weak Sekiryuutei, that has become so powerful thanks to him self and others characters, not Rias. Casually only thanks to issei, the peerage became so powerful.

Awakening BxB is only merit of Tannin, issei did previously touch his breats, but nothing happened. Tannin gived to issei the conditions to unlock it, the breats were only his motivations, not a miracle. Because without the training, issei could touch them continually, but nothing would have happened. The same thing for Traina, merit of Ajuka, previously owners and his perversion for oppai.
Okay for vol11, but for the rest nothing more.

IÂ’ve never said that Rias skills about negotiating are bad, but only that is totally different and not comparable with issei that attract the people.

Awakening BxB, Traina, CxC, those are examples of miracles, because issei has been able to change the “fate” or the fight, becoming suddenly more powerful when he was losing. Especially the last two are something of incredible that only he as Sekiryuutei did. Wyverns, Penetrate, DxD G, P DxD, AxA, T DxD, all this are others miracles. A miracle for issei is te possibility to change the destiny of a fight, when he is in difficulty.

Only the fact that Shiva wanted him is a big acknowledgement, without count that may give him some benefits. Indra wants to fight him, but without Amrita he would have not been able to fight Vidar and the primordial gods, counting Ddraig convocation. There are always benefits from this. Ajuka that helped him for Traina with the evil pieces. Azazel that has helped issei to become stronger. Without those fights or meets, issei would not so powerful and would have not the same importance and influence.

Vali would have not followed everyone with the BG, because they would have been too normal and weak for him. Only someone able to make miracles would be able to compete with him, as Azazel said because Vali is abnormal being descendant of lucifer and owner of DD. The meet with Vali gived to issei a continuously motivation to become stronger and help in more occasions.

you want to use "plot" as an excuse? because if that is the case i can also refer to almost all of issei miracles and him attracting strong people as plot or author fiat. weather you accept it or not rias did convince crom and vasco, weather it speaks good of her or bad of everyone else for not getting such an "easy" recruitment. if rias being at the right place is plot then so is 99% of the things happening around kuoh or issei being in battles like the one whit loki where someone more capable like tobio or dulio should of been escorting odin

issei is the strongest sekiryuutei just like you said, discarding recruiting him because he was weak back then and saying how he become stronger only thanks to himself is bullshit, especially when there was always a third party involved in every important power up he had, be it vali jewel, rias tits or ophis and great red. again, if you discard rias recruitment of kiba or the latter awakening BxB as plot then you should do the same whit issei asspulls

and all of those transformations were triggered by rias tits weather you liked it or not, no rias = no BxB during kuroka fight/triaina/bust. in other words your definition of miracles is plot force, just the same thing you attribute to rias and kiba

shiva wanting him does not seem to bring any benefit so far so until it happens i stand by my point of it not being a good thing, its neutral at best. ajuka helped him because he noticed something weird about his evil pieces not because he was attracted. you are right, whitout meeting those people he wouldn't of been so powerful, which totally contradicts you saying issei power is 100% thanks to himself, its also plot which in-universe is explained as attracting powerful people, something rias apparently has too since she ended whit kiba who has heavenly dragon speed and gram, akeno who is the daughter of a cadre and gasper who is pretty much the reincarnation of a god.

except issei was a run of the mill BG possessor until he unlocked traina and vali seemed to stick around back then too (he helped whit loki, meet him before diodora fight, helped him out of JD) not to mention the whole chuuni book he had prepared for whoever was his rival

[Itsmepatrick]

If by chance the fight between Hades and Vali is only 1 versus 1 I would say the chance of Vali defeating Hades is around 40% - 50% based on the power shown by Hades .

[Giuseppe1234]

Originally Posted by saucerKing

you want to use "plot" as an excuse? because if that is the case i can also refer to almost all of issei miracles and him attracting strong people as plot or author fiat. weather you accept it or not rias did convince crom and vasco, weather it speaks good of her or bad of everyone else for not getting such an "easy" recruitment. if rias being at the right place is plot then so is 99% of the things happening around kuoh or issei being in battles like the one whit loki where someone more capable like tobio or dulio should of been escorting odin

issei is the strongest sekiryuutei just like you said, discarding recruiting him because he was weak back then and saying how he become stronger only thanks to himself is bullshit, especially when there was always a third party involved in every important power up he had, be it vali jewel, rias tits or ophis and great red. again, if you discard rias recruitment of kiba or the latter awakening BxB as plot then you should do the same whit issei asspulls

and all of those transformations were triggered by rias tits weather you liked it or not, no rias = no BxB during kuroka fight/triaina/bust. in other words your definition of miracles is plot force, just the same thing you attribute to rias and kiba

shiva wanting him does not seem to bring any benefit so far so until it happens i stand by my point of it not being a good thing, its neutral at best. ajuka helped him because he noticed something weird about his evil pieces not because he was attracted. you are right, whitout meeting those people he wouldn't of been so powerful, which totally contradicts you saying issei power is 100% thanks to himself, its also plot which in-universe is explained as attracting powerful people, something rias apparently has too since she ended whit kiba who has heavenly dragon speed and gram, akeno who is the daughter of a cadre and gasper who is pretty much the reincarnation of a god.

except issei was a run of the mill BG possessor until he unlocked traina and vali seemed to stick around back then too (he helped whit loki, meet him before diodora fight, helped him out of JD) not to mention the whole chuuni book he had prepared for whoever was his rival

Issei has worked in big part to make those miracles, furthermore he has the potential to make it, with the help of other characters. The recruitment of Crom was something that even other could do, but only Rias did because she needed someone of strong. Even for exemple Lint that for the church has gived to her, when Issei has an Angel in the team and two ex members of the church, logically they would have gived her to him.

Dulio is always not contactable, while Tobio was doing a secret mission, furthermore what is it the point? I do not say that Vasco was easy, but that Crom is nothing of special, even Rivezim did the same.

I would like that you read better before, because I said that issei has became stronger with his own hard work and the help of others characters, not alone.

The transformations were possible only thank to other factors, because issei even previously touched the oppai, but he has not unlocked BxB. Issei to obtain BxB or Traina worked or received help, using his perversion. Rias to find causally Kiba not. No training = no BxB, because I remember that even before issei touched them. No evil pieces with potential = no traina.

Already others said that capture the attention of Shiva is impressive, furthermore issei now has a link with the strongest God, increase your knowledges help always. Ajuka wanted even to help iseei because he found interesting what issei was doing, however now he is even attracted by him.
Read better next time that I’ve said that issei has became stronger even with the help of others characters, not only alone.