Fate/kaleid liner PRISMA☆ILLYA Zwei! - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[ReddyRedWolf]

Interesting that Kuro says that Illya may instinctively or subconsciously wary of the world of magicians.

That instinct saved Illya in season one. Blowing a bunch of Assassins and transforming to Archerko.

[FlareKnight]

While Kuro seems to talk about coexistence being impossible here, her actions at least showed attempts to coexist. Just look at how that dodge ball game turned out. There was Kuro having fun in the game and then it got turned into a "get the heck out" situation. Any real attempts to get in close with Shirou or the rest of the family is shut down, usually through physical violence.

Depending on your interpretation coexistence may be possible, but it's going to be a pretty limited kind. I'm not going to say that Kuro's initial actions were good ones here. Trying to kill someone is hardly a way to create a good friendly situation. Keeping things hidden may have had reasons for them, but they don't make it easy for others to understand you either.

It's a stalemate on both sides. Kuro won't give much up, but Illya hasn't been interested in asking either. Rin has been the one asking the questions and trying to get to the truth with Kuro. Illya's more or less been plugging her ears and then claiming she doesn't understand this person. Not surprising that we've got two of Illya and both are pretty darn stubborn in their own ways.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

While Kuro seems to talk about coexistence being impossible here, her actions at least showed attempts to coexist. Just look at how that dodge ball game turned out. There was Kuro having fun in the game and then it got turned into a "get the heck out" situation. Any real attempts to get in close with Shirou or the rest of the family is shut down, usually through physical violence.

That's because Kuro initially acted out of a whim without any consideration towards Illya, and obviously, the latter felt her lifestyle and even her identity could be threatened at some point.

Did Kuro tried to have a normal life? Perhaps. Did she act like a normal human? Heck no: kissing people everywhere much to Illya's horror, using abnormal force which require magic to begin with.

Even Illya brought a good question: if Kuro wanted so much a normal life, why would she purposedly go to the same school then?
The fact she can't physically harm Illya anymore doesn't mean Kuro cannot stir more trouble, and it is only when people found out there are "two Illya" that she had to pretend to be someone else. So Illya's fear that Kuro tried another approach is quite valid.

Keeping things hidden may have had reasons for them, but they don't make it easy for others to understand you either.

The huge problem is that her reason are essentially blocking any possible way for any compromise, and she is the one responsible for that.
Regardless if she has all Illya's memory or not, she obviously isn't the same since she doesn't have the same personality. Therefore there is little to no reason for her to immediately dismiss any discussion. Her stubborn attitude is the very reason why both can't understand each other, because the former simply ignore everything and went for the kill.

It's a stalemate on both sides. Kuro won't give much up, but Illya hasn't been interested in asking either. Rin has been the one asking the questions and trying to get to the truth with Kuro. Illya's more or less been plugging her ears and then claiming she doesn't understand this person. Not surprising that we've got two of Illya and both are pretty darn stubborn in their own ways.

Plugging her ears? Illya initially tried to get along despite being attacked out of nowhere, and the only thing Kuro did was acting in a smug fashion, merely lamenting she couldn't kill her casually. After several escapes, Illya still had no idea why Kuro was after her, and she was pretty much helpless considering her sudden magic loss.

At this point, Kuro's existence was also a huge problem for Rin and Luvia, so no wonder why they wanted to investigate. Even so, Kuro didn't tell them anything relevant, so why would she answer Illya anyway?

[GDB]

To be fair, the only attempt to get along on Illya's part was treating Kuro like a beast and offering her food to show she meant no harm. Everything beyond that up until the curse seal was Illya in self defense. Everything after the curse seal was Illya being the aggressor and assuming the worst.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

At this point, Kuro's existence was also a huge problem for Rin and Luvia, so no wonder why they wanted to investigate. Even so, Kuro didn't tell them anything relevant, so why would she answer Illya anyway?

Like you said, they treated her like a huge problem. Who'd want to help people like that? She even said in this episode that Miyu was the only one who would listen to her side of things.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by GDB

To be fair, the only attempt to get along on Illya's part was treating Kuro like a beast and offering her food to show she meant no harm. Everything beyond that up until the curse seal was Illya in self defense. Everything after the curse seal was Illya being the aggressor and assuming the worst.

Like you said, they treated her like a huge problem. Who'd want to help people like that? She even said in this episode that Miyu was the only one who would listen to her side of things.

Even so, Miyu basically turned hostile towards Kuro, exactly because the latter is a threat to Illya.

Case in point is Kuro made her point clear that she isn't going to be friendly with Illya and will kill her the very moment it is possible, and that was from the very beginning. Even when she couldn't harm Illya due to the curse, Kuro pushed through in Illya's life, even affecting people who aren't involved to begin with. I can't call Illya an "aggressor" when she is trying to keep Kuro in check as the latter was basically sucking prana left and right with little to no consideration to her victims nor the impersonated victim.

If Illya, Rin and Luvia treated Kuro like that while she wasn't hostile right from the get go, that would be obviously debatable. But considering Kuro's action and behaviour thus far, I see no fault in Illya's take of it.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

If Illya, Rin and Luvia treated Kuro like that while she wasn't hostile right from the get go, that would be obviously debatable. But considering Kuro's action and behaviour thus far, I see no fault in Illya's take of it.

Even Illya's started to see fault in her own actions in this episode. She realized that her friends considered Kuro to be their friend as well, even when Illya herself all but stated she'd rather Kuro disappear (and I'm not talking about her wish in the bath). Ruby talks her through her bath wish and what it meant to Kuro, and combined she realized she's been as big a jerk as Kuro has.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by GDB

Even Illya's started to see fault in her own actions in this episode. She realized that her friends considered Kuro to be their friend as well, even when Illya herself all but stated she'd rather Kuro disappear (and I'm not talking about her wish in the bath). Ruby talks her through her bath wish and what it meant to Kuro, and combined she realized she's been as big a jerk as Kuro has.

Yeah, see I just don't buy all that. Of course Illya's friend aren't going to see Kuro as a threat, because other then a few kisses she hasn't gone around actively trying to kill them like she did with Illya. Basically, Illya's friends don't have the whole picture, nor can they know the whole truth, so they're basing their feelings on lack of information. So to them it looks like Illya is over reacting because Kuro seems harmless, when really she's been anything but, when it comes to Illya. And because of this I basically see it as Illya mostly being guilt tripped into believing she's been doing something wrong, when really she's mostly been behaving like most people in her situation probably would.

[Random Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That's because Kuro initially acted out of a whim without any consideration towards Illya, and obviously, the latter felt her lifestyle and even her identity could be threatened at some point.

Fundamentally incorrect. Kuro's behavior actually has a significant reason and amount of emotion behind it. The fact that you're simply dismissing it as a whim means you are as guilty as Illya of not even trying to understand Kuro.

Did Kuro tried to have a normal life? Perhaps. Did she act like a normal human? Heck no: kissing people everywhere much to Illya's horror, using abnormal force which require magic to begin with.

And you have some other suggestion for her finding a way to survive? Should she have taken some boy and had sex with him? That would have fit within the Nasuverse's rules for mana transfer as well, but it wouldn't have done Illya's image any good either.

And because of this I basically see it as Illya mostly being guilt tripped into believing she's been doing something wrong, when really she's mostly been behaving like most people in her situation probably would.

Most people in her situation would have tried to figure out why Kuro's doing what she's doing, why she reacts the way she does, if only to try to get her to stop. Illya hasn't considered it at all. Her thoughts have been entirely about how this situation is just bad for her.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Random Wanderer

Fundamentally incorrect. Kuro's behavior actually has a significant reason and amount of emotion behind it. The fact that you're simply dismissing it as a whim means you are as guilty as Illya of not even trying to understand Kuro.

Of course there is a reason behind such decision, but that's not the point I made. The fundamental reason why it "appears" as a whim is essentially due to her behaviour: she never introduced as "Chloe" nor notified Illya and the rest about her "wish to take part of a normal life". She simply barges again in Illya's life, and instead of killing her (because it is denied by the curse), she goes straight to Illya's friends. So for someone who was the victim quite recently, it is quite natural for them to think they are still harassed.

And you have some other suggestion for her finding a way to survive? Should she have taken some boy and had sex with him? That would have fit within the Nasuverse's rules for mana transfer as well, but it wouldn't have done Illya's image any good either.

She could actually do it with any stranger, so I find natural for Illya to think that Kuro did it to her friends on purpose.
Also, Kuro could cooperate with Rin and Luvia if it wasn't for her open hostility for Illya. To begin with, it is very unlikely Rin and Luvia would leave her to die if Kuro explained clearly she is some sort of "clone" existence to Illya (whatever the specific) and that she would need prana to live on. The fact Rin and Luvia didn't eliminate her is already enough to figure out they aren't prone to kill any hostile individual unless it is necessary, and Luvia giving a shelter to Kuro is another evidence of that.
Simply put, Kuro's silence regarding her existence make everything way more complicated than it should be. And she is the one who impose her own conditions without much consideration for the rest.

Most people in her situation would have tried to figure out why Kuro's doing what she's doing, why she reacts the way she does, if only to try to get her to stop. Illya hasn't considered it at all. Her thoughts have been entirely about how this situation is just bad for her.

Albeit she didn't try actively, Illya -was- wondering why kuro was trying to kill her, but couldn't deal with it because she was trying to survive.
And only after she had the possibility to ask questions, Rin already did. Yet, Kuro kept her mouth shut, and kept her smug attitude from start to finish.

Why would anyone who was about to be murdered bother with someone who doesn't give ANY compromise? If Rin didn't make her own investigation, that would be a terrible mistake from Illya. However, she witnessed firsthand that Kuro keeps her defiant attitude despite she is in Rin's custody, stating again her only goal is to kill Illya and "replacing her".
So no, I don't think it is unreasonable for Illya to not care about Kuro's feelings up to now, exactly because Kuro didn't care about Illya's feelings and just wanted to off her, without disclosing any reason nor discussing her issues with Illya. Kuro makes the assumption that Illya's wish is fundamentally in opposition to her own existence, yet it doesn't make any sense since Miyu is Illya's friend, even though she is part of that "magical girl mess" Illya was dragged in. Miyu and Illya's relationship is an evidence that Illya doesn't see things in a black and white fashion and still consider individuals even if it is a frigging bother.

Let's assume for a moment that, instead of trying to kill her, Kuro flat out explains her existence is tied to her, and knowing Illya's memories (since she knew about her fight against berserker, Kaleid weaknesses etc, it is safe to assume such point), she could simply tell her that she doesn't want to disappear due to Illya's wish.
Of course Illya would be stunned by that kind of revelation, but she would hardly ignored Kuro here.

So really, the problem is two folds: 1) Kuro never explained her existence and motivations 2) she was literally harassing Illya, much less lately thanks to the curse.
Claiming Illya is part of the problem is a bit far fetched to me, exactly because the whole issue is due to the two aforementioned points.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That's because Kuro initially acted out of a whim without any consideration towards Illya, and obviously, the latter felt her lifestyle and even her identity could be threatened at some point.

Did Kuro tried to have a normal life? Perhaps. Did she act like a normal human? Heck no: kissing people everywhere much to Illya's horror, using abnormal force which require magic to begin with.

Even Illya brought a good question: if Kuro wanted so much a normal life, why would she purposedly go to the same school then?
The fact she can't physically harm Illya anymore doesn't mean Kuro cannot stir more trouble, and it is only when people found out there are "two Illya" that she had to pretend to be someone else. So Illya's fear that Kuro tried another approach is quite valid.
The huge problem is that her reason are essentially blocking any possible way for any compromise, and she is the one responsible for that.
Regardless if she has all Illya's memory or not, she obviously isn't the same since she doesn't have the same personality. Therefore there is little to no reason for her to immediately dismiss any discussion. Her stubborn attitude is the very reason why both can't understand each other, because the former simply ignore everything and went for the kill.
Plugging her ears? Illya initially tried to get along despite being attacked out of nowhere, and the only thing Kuro did was acting in a smug fashion, merely lamenting she couldn't kill her casually. After several escapes, Illya still had no idea why Kuro was after her, and she was pretty much helpless considering her sudden magic loss.

At this point, Kuro's existence was also a huge problem for Rin and Luvia, so no wonder why they wanted to investigate. Even so, Kuro didn't tell them anything relevant, so why would she answer Illya anyway?

Have you looked at the people in this show? One of Illya's 'normal' friends downright tried to strip in the middle of a classroom ! I don't think Kuro really went much further in busting down the walls of normalcy with the kissing spree. And using one example to make an entire case against someone is ridiculous. Apparently Kuro's behavior after that incident was normal enough for Illya's friends to consider her a friend as well. You have to take someone for the entirety of who they are. So yeah, Kuro did attempt to live fairly normally and was apparently successful enough at it to be accepted.

[ReddyRedWolf]

We have to remember Kuro considers herself as Illya and has the same feeling for Shirou only more pronounced.

From the way they act Illya is the Ego while Kuro is the Id. Illya can hardly remember what she did as Archerko then we must assume it is her subconscious Kuro that was in charge.

[aeriolewinters]

Iri has the perfect explanation next episode, just wait for it.


Anyway, I'd like to point out that Chloe isn't really out to get Illya at this point. Even the confrontation with Miyu wasn't her being the aggressor.

[Dark Wing]

Is it weird of me to interpret the conversation between Kuro and Miyu to be akin to someone trying to steal the lover of another away from that person?

[Death Usagi]

Originally Posted by aeriolewinters

-snip-

Erase that before the admins come run to get you... :/

[Guido]

The point of contention for this episode was Illya, at first, not understanding the gravity of wishing for her normal life to be back putting her again on bad terms with Kuro. Consequently, Kuro tried to reason with Miyu over to her side in regards to Illya's selfishness for requesting such wish.

Basically, Illya wishing for her normal life again broadly translates as making her encounters with Miyu and the others either to dissappear or to undo them. Nevertheless, Miyu sticked with Illya all the way to the end because the latter was the first to call the former her friend.

As for the rest that the episode had to offer the size jokes regarding Liz and then comparing to Sella were just priceless.

[Liddo-kun]

Ilya, Shirou, and maids had to take a bath in the neighbor, because their bath got destroyed. xD

so the problem with Chloe got restarted again. Hopefully, it will be resolved with better solution this time.