AnimeSuki Forums

erneiz_hyde · 2020-11-23, 18:46

It's not like they're mutually exclusive. He can make Elaine a blank slate to fit her in more stories while also being a commentary on modern human indifference. Fits so perfectly it's a brilliant move if you ask me, author might be more of a genius than I originally thought.

Tuor · 2020-11-23, 18:46

It's pointless arguing with them, Blueknight. Their belief system is in place and they're not going to change it. They believe if you have power, you have *an obligation* to use it. They hate Elaina because she isn't a crusader against the ills of the world, and if you argue that she was never portrayed as being one, they'll counter that she *ought* to be, and not being one is a major moral failure on her part, like being born colorblind, but for societal obligations instead.

Since this idea is attached to their worldview, it's not open to being changed. All you'll do is make them think that you share the same failing and should therefor be treated the same way.

tokinokanatae · 2020-11-23, 19:01

What an odd assumption to make. People don't dislike Elaina because she doesn't fix everything, they dislike her because she refuses to engage--even emotionally.

Take infamous ep 3 for example--there are several ways a story like that can play out. Elaina could attempt to save the slave and then deal with nasty consequences; she could be uncomfortable with the situation, but talk herself out of interfering because she's "just a tourist"; she could interfere without thinking of saving the slave outright, making the slave's life much worse for Elaina having been there; she could succeed in saving the slave, setting her up with a (hopefully) better life before she leaves again, etc etc.

All of those options have Elaina at least emotionally confronting the truth of the situation in front of her, whether she chooses to help or not. What the series does is have Elaina fly away and think vaguely that "sometimes kindness is actually..............................[gasp] CRUEL!" which, uh, doesn't need a child sex slave to explore.

erneiz_hyde · 2020-11-23, 19:14

You know this reminds me of Ayanami Rei. The character was originally created to show how weird people like her is, but instead otakus are all over her. Similar things have happened in western fiction as well, like in Dr. House, Dexter, and the like. Basically people idolizing characters they weren't supposed to. I get the feeling though, I also have a rather unhealthy attraction to some types of unsavory characters and that's probably not going to change.

The thing with fiction though sometimes they are exaggerated and that's a good thing, take for example Izaya from Durarara. Readers love the guy despite being an absolute asshole and that's probably because it's sufficiently separate from reality, as in there is no way I would meet this kind of people irl. But Elaina? She is so like us modern humans that it reminds us of the dreary reality that we live in and that's not what people generally seeks in entertainment.

Blueknight78 · 2020-11-23, 19:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by tokinokanatae

What an odd assumption to make. People don't dislike Elaina because she doesn't fix everything, they dislike her because she refuses to engage--even emotionally.

Take infamous ep 3 for example--there are several ways a story like that can play out. Elaina could attempt to save the slave and then deal with nasty consequences; she could be uncomfortable with the situation, but talk herself out of interfering because she's "just a tourist"; she could interfere without thinking of saving the slave outright, making the slave's life much worse for Elaina having been there; she could succeed in saving the slave, setting her up with a (hopefully) better life before she leaves again, etc etc.

All of those options have Elaina at least emotionally confronting the truth of the situation in front of her, whether she chooses to help or not. What the series does is have Elaina fly away and think vaguely that "sometimes kindness is actually..............................[gasp] CRUEL!" which, uh, doesn't need a child sex slave to explore.

and it's not totally wrong, indeed sometimes kindness can be realy the worst option, this is what a "real world is", the world is not perfect, neither full o f kindness or justice neither all kindness and justice are "right", what is bad today can be good later and soo on not all peoples think and agree in the same way that is how the world is.

For me is not if you "like or not what she is doing" but how peoples act like what she is doing is something 'impossible or not reasonable and because of that she is a bad character or its bad writing, you liking a character or not behavious don't translate in bad or good writing, it's just means "her personality is like that, if you hate her because of that ok, it's fine hater her but keep expectating her "changing her behaviour on each episode just because you hate her is what is really "wrong".

tokinokanatae · 2020-11-23, 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

and it's not totally wrong, indeed sometimes kindness can be realy the worst option, this is what a "real world is", the world is not perfect, neither full o f kindness or justice neither all kindness and justice are "right", what is bad today can be good later and soo on not all peoples think and agree in the same way that is how the world is.

I mean, it's fine if you agree with the message. I also agree with the message. The message of the story is just overshadowed by the way it chooses to highlight the message.

It's like Elaina visiting a cannibal, who we see has a little boy in a cage in her kitchen, but the "moral" of the episode is "a penny saved is a penny earned." Discussion is inevitably going to focus on the cannibal cook and her victims, not the financial advice Elaina is attempting to impart.

Dharma · 2020-11-23, 19:40

Wow so you did not notice the difference between mage and witch? No wonder you you ok with bad writing...

arkhangelsk · 2020-11-24, 02:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blueknight78

For me is not if you "like or not what she is doing" but how peoples act like what she is doing is something 'impossible or not reasonable and because of that she is a bad character or its bad writing, you liking a character or not behavious don't translate in bad or good writing, it's just means "her personality is like that, if you hate her because of that ok, it's fine hater her but keep expectating her "changing her behaviour on each episode just because you hate her is what is really "wrong".

Personally, I don't think Elaina is a bad character, but she definitely is a different cup of tea from the regular blends, and as a commercial product she is not a very safe design.

While if you write well you can write almost anything, some courses of action are easier to write to a satisfactory standard, and helping when you look like you can is one of them. It's hard for anyone to really criticize that even if your writing isn't brilliant.

If she doesn't help out ... well, it could still work but it'll be harder to pull off, and you'll likely never quite get rid of the discontents entirely.

I do notice that one way or another, after episode 4 Elaina is helping out a lot more. And while I was not offended by Episode 3-4 Elaina, I think the Elaina that helps, if reluctantly, is just fine too.

EroKing · 2020-11-27, 10:02

I guess one loli abuse in the show wasn't enough, heh. But on the bright side, in that new timeline Selena's future victims would have avoided getting killed by her so that's something...

Kazu-kun · 2020-11-27, 13:08

If anything, this goes to show Elaina was right about not getting involved in other people's shit. First time she actually tried to help and look what happens.

EroKing · 2020-11-27, 13:50

Elaina or not, the outcome was unavoidable. Estelle would have just found another witch to help her out.

Blueknight78 · 2020-11-27, 17:10

wow what a messed episode the anime director was not playing when in a interview he told which the episde 9 would be the most "dark", what a really big mess i really feel bad of the mage elaina tried to help, she was being made a fool all the time, it's make me think which that crazy loli was pretty much a psycho and even if her parents not abused her she could still be a crazy, what her parents did was trigger what already inside her waiting to blow up and how it blowed up, i'm even start to doubt if indeed her uncle really abused her or somehow was a lie and she used it just as a start to all the crap she did.

the only "bright side" was which in that alternative timeline they saved all her victims after she killed her parents, she don't become the "murderer of the street".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

If anything, this goes to show Elaina was right about not getting involved in other people's shit. First time she actually tried to help and look what happens.

yeah i do agree on that its another episode which shows which being "kind" can hurt so much or even worst as not doing anything, indeed she is better at sticking to her "not get involved" way of go.

Kazu-kun · 2020-11-27, 17:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by EroKing

Elaina or not, the outcome was unavoidable. Estelle would have just found another witch to help her out.

Sure, but if Elaina didn't get involved, she wouldn't have to go through this. I can only imagine how traumatic it must be to see how a kid is decapitated in front of you, while you're unable to do anything to stop it. The kid was a murderer but that doesn't make things any less gruesome and traumatic for Elaina.

Blueknight78 · 2020-11-27, 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Sure, but if Elaina didn't get involved, she wouldn't have to go through this. I can only imagine how traumatic it must be to see how a kid is decapitated in front of you, while you're unable to do anything to stop it. The kid was a murderer but that doesn't make things any less gruesome and traumatic for Elaina.

and to make things even worst the "kid" was crazy laughting as hell and don't show any signals of "humanity" and crushing her friend last hope while waiting to be killed, the whole scene was really gruesome and traumatic for anyone, speically estella, man i really feel bad for that girl, she find out about the true nature of her "best friend" in the worst way possible and as we saw she have to kill her a "second time".

erneiz_hyde · 2020-11-27, 18:43

You know, I think it would've been better to put this before ep 3. This could serve as a plot point that made her less enthusiastic about helping people in her journey. That way I think the people watching this wouldn't complain as much as they did.

Kanon · 2020-11-27, 19:32

When I saw that warning at the beginning, I knew it would be another dark episode, but I didn't think it would be this gruesome. Which channel does this air on? I'm surprised they managed to get away with this much violence, involving a child no less, while Akudama Drive and Higurashi are censored to hell and back.

While the whole ordeal was understandably traumatic for Elaina, when you look at the end result only, the time travel worked out for the best. As mentioned by others, there is at least a timeline where Selena's future victims are saved, and there's one more important thing: Estelle is now free from the burden of having executed her best friend. The main reason she was doing this was to alleviate her guilt, and she has nothing to feel guilty about anymore since she erased all her memories of Selena.

On the lighter side of things, I loved the banter between Elaina and Estelle during the interview. Elaina is so vain

Kazu-kun · 2020-11-27, 20:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanon

While the whole ordeal was understandably traumatic for Elaina, when you look at the end result only, the time travel worked out for the best. As mentioned by others, there is at least a timeline where Selena's future victims are saved

Those characters are off-screen no-names. I don't think we're supposed to care. On top of that Selena seemed totally out of it at the end, like she lost not just her memories but her mind as well. All in all, I don't see any silver lining to this whole mess

kk2extreme · 2020-11-27, 20:36

Holy Shit! Assassin of the black is no joke

Sorry, wrong series

Gore and darkness level is right up there with Ep 4.

serenade_beta · 2020-11-27, 22:47

Lol, this anime really is hilarious.

It was clear from the start that either the witch of the week or the loli was going to be the real criminal (because this anime), but they then spend a whole gory scene where this loli has the HP of a Snorlax and gets a beating from the witch who went from 0 to 100.
But that's not all. Elaina doesn't take the money and then actually feels emotion for other people! Maybe we'll get a plot later about her doppelganger.

stray · 2020-11-28, 00:33

Denial seems to be a recurring theme in this series. That the loli actually killed her parents surprised no one other than Estelle.

2020-11-23, 18:46	Link #241
erneiz_hyde 18782+18782=37564 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: InterWebs	It's not like they're mutually exclusive. He can make Elaine a blank slate to fit her in more stories while also being a commentary on modern human indifference. Fits so perfectly it's a brilliant move if you ask me, author might be more of a genius than I originally thought. __________________

2020-11-23, 19:14	Link #244
erneiz_hyde 18782+18782=37564 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: InterWebs	You know this reminds me of Ayanami Rei. The character was originally created to show how weird people like her is, but instead otakus are all over her. Similar things have happened in western fiction as well, like in Dr. House, Dexter, and the like. Basically people idolizing characters they weren't supposed to. I get the feeling though, I also have a rather unhealthy attraction to some types of unsavory characters and that's probably not going to change. The thing with fiction though sometimes they are exaggerated and that's a good thing, take for example Izaya from Durarara. Readers love the guy despite being an absolute asshole and that's probably because it's sufficiently separate from reality, as in there is no way I would meet this kind of people irl. But Elaina? She is so like us modern humans that it reminds us of the dreary reality that we live in and that's not what people generally seeks in entertainment. __________________

2020-11-23, 19:40	Link #247
Dharma Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Kyrgyzstan, Bishkek Age: 40	Wow so you did not notice the difference between mage and witch? No wonder you you ok with bad writing... __________________ Bravery is not a function of firepower.

2020-11-27, 10:02	Link #249
EroKing Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Age: 38	Episode 9 I guess one loli abuse in the show wasn't enough, heh. But on the bright side, in that new timeline Selena's future victims would have avoided getting killed by her so that's something... __________________

2020-11-27, 13:08	Link #250
Kazu-kun Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2006	If anything, this goes to show Elaina was right about not getting involved in other people's shit. First time she actually tried to help and look what happens. __________________

2020-11-23, 18:46	Link #242
Tuor Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: Bellevue, WA Age: 55	It's pointless arguing with them, Blueknight. Their belief system is in place and they're not going to change it. They believe if you have power, you have an obligation to use it. They hate Elaina because she isn't a crusader against the ills of the world, and if you argue that she was never portrayed as being one, they'll counter that she ought to be, and not being one is a major moral failure on her part, like being born colorblind, but for societal obligations instead. Since this idea is attached to their worldview, it's not open to being changed. All you'll do is make them think that you share the same failing and should therefor be treated the same way.

2020-11-23, 19:01	Link #243
tokinokanatae Member Join Date: Apr 2015	What an odd assumption to make. People don't dislike Elaina because she doesn't fix everything, they dislike her because she refuses to engage--even emotionally. Take infamous ep 3 for example--there are several ways a story like that can play out. Elaina could attempt to save the slave and then deal with nasty consequences; she could be uncomfortable with the situation, but talk herself out of interfering because she's "just a tourist"; she could interfere without thinking of saving the slave outright, making the slave's life much worse for Elaina having been there; she could succeed in saving the slave, setting her up with a (hopefully) better life before she leaves again, etc etc. All of those options have Elaina at least emotionally confronting the truth of the situation in front of her, whether she chooses to help or not. What the series does is have Elaina fly away and think vaguely that "sometimes kindness is actually..............................[gasp] CRUEL!" which, uh, doesn't need a child sex slave to explore.

2020-11-27, 13:50	Link #251
EroKing Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Age: 38	Elaina or not, the outcome was unavoidable. Estelle would have just found another witch to help her out. __________________

2020-11-27, 18:43	Link #255
erneiz_hyde 18782+18782=37564 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: InterWebs	You know, I think it would've been better to put this before ep 3. This could serve as a plot point that made her less enthusiastic about helping people in her journey. That way I think the people watching this wouldn't complain as much as they did. __________________

2020-11-27, 19:32	Link #256
Kanon Kana Hanazawa ♥ Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: France Age: 37	When I saw that warning at the beginning, I knew it would be another dark episode, but I didn't think it would be this gruesome. Which channel does this air on? I'm surprised they managed to get away with this much violence, involving a child no less, while Akudama Drive and Higurashi are censored to hell and back. While the whole ordeal was understandably traumatic for Elaina, when you look at the end result only, the time travel worked out for the best. As mentioned by others, there is at least a timeline where Selena's future victims are saved, and there's one more important thing: Estelle is now free from the burden of having executed her best friend. The main reason she was doing this was to alleviate her guilt, and she has nothing to feel guilty about anymore since she erased all her memories of Selena. On the lighter side of things, I loved the banter between Elaina and Estelle during the interview. Elaina is so vain __________________

2020-11-27, 20:36	Link #258
kk2extreme Your wife is hot... Join Date: May 2008 Location: At your house fixing A/C	Holy Shit! Assassin of the black is no joke Sorry, wrong series Gore and darkness level is right up there with Ep 4.

2020-11-27, 22:47	Link #259
serenade_beta そのおっぱいで13才 Join Date: Dec 2006	Lol, this anime really is hilarious. It was clear from the start that either the witch of the week or the loli was going to be the real criminal (because this anime), but they then spend a whole gory scene where this loli has the HP of a Snorlax and gets a beating from the witch who went from 0 to 100. But that's not all. Elaina doesn't take the money and then actually feels emotion for other people! Maybe we'll get a plot later about her doppelganger. __________________ -Blog --> http://tdnshumi.blogspot.com/ (Mainly about video games) -R.I.P. Hiroshi Yamauchi, Gaming wouldn't have been the same without you (9/19/13)

2020-11-28, 00:33	Link #260
stray Speedy Sea Cucumber Join Date: Jun 2008	Denial seems to be a recurring theme in this series. That the loli actually killed her parents surprised no one other than Estelle.