(L) UQ Holder (Ken Akamatsu's new series)

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Nah harem genre stories are all about competition. If you don't want competition you would read vanilla instead.

Toxic fandoms are bad, but that's part of it too.

No, they aren't.

That's a niche interest if I've ever heard one. The majority are there for the relationship fantasy, or because one of the girls caught their eye and they enjoy that specific relationship, or because the story is doing something else they're interested in besides the harem.

Almost nobody goes into a harem story like "Alright, let's place our bets, whose going to come out on top, FIGHTO"

[Anh_Minh]

Just putting that out there, but there's more than one model of human relationship, and more than one way to enjoy stories.

[Ligerleon89]

It all comes down to personal preference in the end. I've nothing against multi relationships, so long as the story is good. Vanilla, though my usual preference is held to the same standards.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Just putting that out there, but there's more than one model of human relationship

Sure but real life harems aren't happy, healthy relationships. They generally only happen in countries or places where women have little to rights and men calls the shots. It's not the same as an open relationship.

Anime and manga sacrifice logic and proper characterization in order to make harem "work." It's basically the opposite of real life, as it shows the girls happily accepting the arrangement which no self-respecting real-life woman would ever do. Harem in manga and anime is just a male fantasy. It doesn't try to be realistic in anyway, which is okay. It's just that we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking it has any basis in reality. It's purely wish-fulfilment and that's just fine.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

Sure but real life harems aren't happy, healthy relationships. They generally only happen in countries or places where women have little to rights and men calls the shots. It's not the same as an open relationship.

Anime and manga sacrifice logic and proper characterization in order to make harem "work." It's basically the opposite of real life, as it shows the girls happily accepting the arrangement which no self-respecting real-life woman would ever do. Harem in manga and anime is just a male fantasy. It doesn't try to be realistic in anyway, which is okay. It's just that we shouldn't delude ourselves into thinking it has any basis in reality. It's purely wish-fulfilment and that's just fine.

I don't know if you're aware of this, but a lot of monogamous relationships are also horribly toxic and unhealthy. And nearly 100% of relationships in manga and anime that aren't horrifically toxic and unhealthy are based on various forms of wish fulfillment. Basically the entire shojo genre is "ordinary girl suddenly catches eye of fabulously rich and popular sempai who falls desperately in love with her", for one.

Also trying to say that no polygamous relationship ever has been healthy and fulfilling is a hell of a hot take considering they've existed in one form or another in basically every human society in history.

[Ligerleon89]

Originally Posted by XFire

I don't know if you're aware of this, but a lot of monogamous relationships are also horribly toxic and unhealthy. And nearly 100% of relationships in manga and anime that aren't horrifically toxic and unhealthy are based on various forms of wish fulfillment. Basically the entire shojo genre is "ordinary girl suddenly catches eye of fabulously rich and popular sempai who falls desperately in love with her", for one.

Also trying to say that no polygamous relationship ever has been healthy and fulfilling is a hell of a hot take considering they've existed in one form or another in basically every human society in history.

Any relationship can be toxic regardless if monogamous or polygamous. It all lies in how people involved in heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, and etc., in the terms of how people treat each other during their relationships. How well they face challenges while being together. If a person either one or the other is terrible for any reasons during said relationship, then of course it's going to be toxic to the point that at a certain point, there will be a break-up among each other. Whatever the problem is with the person, it runs the risk of the relationship ending if nothing is done for self-improvement.

Lack of love, not enough time for each other, treating each other terribly or just to their other, lust to satisfy to the point that cheating can occur behind the lover's back. Things like that can put relationships in a bad spot. Some of the mangas I've read wasn't always too realistic in romance depending on how well the mangakas writes their stories. In any case, people in such relationships have to persist in order to make it last long, and that means willing to change themselves in order to do so.

[Tenzen12]

Every kind relationship can be toxic, but not every kind of relationship can be healthy.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Every kind relationship can be toxic, but not every kind of relationship can be healthy.

Bullshit

Anything can work if the people involved decide to make it work.

[Tenzen12]

Yeah, that's what people say about communism

Either way, I didn't say people can't make it work, if you try hard enough you can mitigate lot of damage and if people want try they are free to do so.

That said you you need lot of selflessness to make work any kind of relationship and you can't expect that from someone who hook up with multiple partners.

EDIT: Well it would be different matter if goal of one party isn't actual commited relationship, but things like money, protection or status in which case all parties can potentially get what they wanted and you would get functional harem where some degree of affection can exist as bonus.

[NapoleonDeCheese]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Harem litreraly means NOT having guts to choose one heroine. Negima had lot of flaws, but at least romantic conclusion was decent.

Negima didn't even have its own romantic conclusion, it had to wait several years for an AU spinoff to supply its (badly rushed, badly done and badly abridged) conclusion for it.

If everyone wins, there is no winner.

That's literally Joker-level logics. Proof!

Sure but real life harems aren't happy, healthy relationships.

In real life it's also horribly unhealthy, immoral, dangerous, illegal and just plain wrong subjecting minors to Training from Hell (often losing their humanity in the proccess) so they can go risk their lives against extremely deadly enemies for the sake of adults who won't go and fight themselves.

Yet we see nothing wrong when shounen stories do that. In Negima's case, to a literal 10 year old who actually loses his humanity, period, to it.

We can't cherrypick in power fantasies, that's just hypocritical. One thing is as wrong as the other if not moreso. It's a whole package, take it or leave it.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Yeah, that's what people say about communism

Either way, I didn't say people can't make it work, if you try hard enough you can mitigate lot of damage and if people want try they are free to do so.

That said you you need lot of selflessness to make work any kind of relationship and you can't expect that from someone who hook up with multiple partners.

EDIT: Well it would be different matter if goal of one party isn't actual commited relationship, but things like money, protection or status in which case all parties can potentially get what they wanted and you would get functional harem where some degree of affection can exist as bonus.

Fairly certain that insisting only a single way works always forever is how authoritarianism works, so perhaps not your best analogy.

And you literally did in your previous post when you said some relationships can't work. At least stay consistent.

Your continued insistence on defining a "working" relationship by how possessive the partners involved are is not exactly helping your case.

And the idea that mutual affection between three or more people can't exist is another hot take because again these kinds of relationships have existed as long as people have been forming family units.

As for your edit, you could argue the same thing for literally every kind of relationship, romantic or otherwise. There's no such thing as a perfectly equal partnership in the first place.

[XFire]

Seriously, all you're doing is pointing out flaws that exist in every form of relationship and pretending its exclusive to polygamy. You could easily do the same to all the others if you felt like it. Here, watch.

Monogamy is nothing but a spiral of codependency and possessiveness.

Open relationships are just cowards who can't commit

If you're single you're an incel, no exceptions

This is what you sound like -_-

[NapoleonDeCheese]

Nobody could ever, by default, have a 'normal' relationship with Negi or Touta, period. They are both so apart from what counts as a 'normal' person that any partner will have to adapt themselves to the idea they'll have to conform to a not 'normal' kind of relationship no matter what.

[Ligerleon89]

Let's keep it close to what this topic should be about guys. All I know is that Touta had just been laid and Fate has plans for Touta. As much as people can point out flaws in whatever. It still comes down to being able to commit. It won't last long if you are just terrible with relationships for some reason.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Ligerleon89

Let's keep it close to what this topic should be about guys. All I know is that Touta had just been laid and Fate has plans for Touta. As much as people can point out flaws in whatever. It still comes down to being able to commit. It won't last long if you are just terrible with relationships for some reason.

Fair enough. I'll drop it now, this doesn't really have anything to do with UQ Holder at this point

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by XFire

Seriously, all you're doing is pointing out flaws that exist in every form of relationship and pretending its exclusive to polygamy. You could easily do the same to all the others if you felt like it. Here, watch.

Monogamy is nothing but a spiral of codependency and possessiveness.

Open relationships are just cowards who can't commit

If you're single you're an incel, no exceptions

This is what you sound like -_-

No polygamy has its own set of flaws. So does open relationships. Either way later put both parties on equal ground. Yes it's not healthy either, but it's less toxic (though you have to worry about STD) . Pretending everything is same and equally is just denying reality.

Like some would insist having weight of small whale is equally healthy to someone with 20 or so BMI. That's how you sound.

Anyway if you want surround yourself with bunch of subservient chicks with no self-respect. Feel free to do so. Your life your choices.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

No polygamy has its own set of flaws. So does open relationships. Either way later put both parties on equal ground. Yes it's not healthy either, but it's less toxic (though you have to worry about STD) . Pretending everything is same and equally is just denying reality.

Like some would insist having weight of small whale is equally healthy to someone with 20 or so BMI. That's how you sound.

Anyway if you want surround yourself with bunch of subservient chicks with no self-respect. Feel free to do so. Your life your choices.

And so does monogamy. And every other form of relationship, romantic or otherwise. The only one denying reality is the one ignoring thousands of years of human history because of their preferences in fictional relationships.

And of the form of relationships we've been discussing, want to take a guess which ones have a higher percentage of staying together and having a functional family unit for the children? Because if you're going to use health as a metaphor, maybe take into account the sky rates of divorce and single parent households before hand.

And you can possessively attach yourself to a single person while dogging their every step to make sure they never talk to another person of the opposite sex, since that's apparently the only "healthy" relationship

[NapoleonDeCheese]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Anyway if you want surround yourself with bunch of subservient chicks with no self-respect. Feel free to do so. Your life your choices.

If anything most girl in fictional harem endings are more self assured and forceful in personality than the idealized 'single winner' girls.

I mean, let's compare the cast of Tenchi Muyo and those who are in Touta's harem so far with Yamato Nadeshiko doormats like Aoi from Ai Yori Aoshi, Belldandy or Hinata, or possessive Tsundere winners like Naru or Louise la Valliere.

The former tend to be tightly knit groups who know they all have to pull together to make a complex relationship work. The latter are most often insecure and only rest at ease when they 'know' their romantic interest will always look at them and only at them.

[Ligerleon89]

Spoiler for New chapter:

Long story short, Touta with assistance from Fate, manages to get Karin from space. ....And yes, those two did "do the deed" on the way back to Earth and splashes into the ocean besides a nearby place in Hawaii. Kirie is now next to be saved and likely consumate with Touta.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by XFire

Also trying to say that no polygamous relationship ever has been healthy and fulfilling is a hell of a hot take considering they've existed in one form or another in basically every human society in history.

There will always be exceptions, but chances are polyamory relationships that actually work aren't harems or any sort of relationship in which a single guy is surrender by various girls clinging to his dick. That's a fantasy. It doesn't exist in reality unless the girls are either forced or manipulated into it (like most harem in history). Actually-functional polyamory relationships are more like open-relationships that include various guys and women. There's no king-like central figure whom everyone else revolves around.

Originally Posted by NapoleonDeCheese

If anything most girl in fictional harem endings are more self assured and forceful in personality than the idealized 'single winner' girls.

But Tenzen12 is right they are subservient. It doesn't matter if they appear self-assured and whatnot. They're still revolve around the MC, devote to him and such.