(L) Mushoku Tensei: Isekai Ittara Honki Dasu (Jobless Reincarnation)

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

at obelisk.

you are conflagrating two things, loving paul and zenith as family and loving them as parents.

imho rudy loves his parents as family, but because he had a previous set of parents, he does not see them as parents like a normal child would, its a weird situation similar but not quite ,like an adopted children.

I did say in one of my comments that Rudy's situation is complex:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

.... simply growing up with parents won't make the child love them. In Rudy's case, it's even more complex considering he has the mind & experience of a 40yo hikki-NEET.

And thanks to that, his behaviour towards his isekai-parents can't be easily categorized in a simple "son love his parents" in a straight way. And for me, Rudy's 40yo pedo/lecherous/scum personality kinda makes me doubting him. Remember, this is a "son" who has no problem peeking at his parents having sex for jacking off material (thank god he got distracted at the time).

Originally Posted by maximilianjenus

about not going to his parents funeral, the presentation order makes him look like an ass, but the cronological order makes it clear the the reason he did not go is that he cant go out of the house,.much less to a funeral full of people who hate him ( in his perspective).

I only watch the anime. So if the anime deliberately portray him like a scum then that's what I get.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Maybe you don't know, but the field of psychology involves more statistic than economy. So don't rely on that if you want, but that's pretty much what modern psychology is grounded on.

But isekai MCs characterization in anime don't fully apply IRL psychology. That's my point.

[frubam]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Paul was out of line before that moment and Rudeus deserved get punched in that very moment. Paul was for most part wrong, but he meant what he said. Rudeus in other hand didn't care whether what he said was true, he just wanted stab where it hurt most.

It's difference between being wrong and being bully.

This is true, but it is also true that it was an assessment based on Paul's previous reputation, which is not that great. Paul still opened that door himself when he criticized Rudy. I can understand Rudy wanting to point out a hypocrisy of Paul saying what he said, which may or may not be true; he could have been seriously searching for his family, but still having sex with random women, we don't know.

Getting his a** beat by Rudy was Paul's fault, since he threw the first punch. Rudy assuming that Paul was screwing around is also Paul's fault, both because of his reputation and his earlier chastise. Paul was the bully, as he always was when Rudy was spittin' the fact at him and he couldn't handle it.

[Tenzen12]

That is true to degree still that has no bearing to my point. Rudy just wanted to be smug asshole so he was smug asshole and got punched. Whether Paul had affair in past, present or future is completely unrelated to that. It's just vector of attack not reason.

[Ligerleon89]

Doesn't change the fact that Paul put way too much expectations on Rudy. Rudy may have been smug and arrogant, but at least he wasn't trying to mess around with people, trying hard to make his next life count and he is currently 11 years old. Paul lost himself to booze and so forth, and beat himself up for the failures he suffered. The Demon Continent is no joke, Rudy could have died there if he even made one slip up. Paul should have known that, instead he whined and takes it out on a child that he should have never left his sight until Rudy grew up. There is a limit to how much Paul can be defended. Paul probably would have been able to realize that what Rudy did is a mask to hide his true feelings, but he never get out of his high expectations. Paul messed up a bit more than Rudy. Rudy is still a kid regardless of his 40 old mind. What's Paul darn excuse for his flawed behavior.

[Tenzen12]

Which I agree with. I was criticising Rudeus not defending Paul. If I wanted defend Paul I would argue that he was in depression, tired, probably drunk and had too much expectetation for his son.

[Ligerleon89]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Which I agree with. I was criticising Rudeus not defending Paul. If I wanted defend Paul I would argue that he was in depression, tired, probably drunk and had too much expectetation for his son.

Yeah but a good parent would know something was off with Rudy with his behavior, the moment he acts so carefree. There would be questions. Paul is a good fighter, but is bad at reading the behaviors of people when he's too boozed up and not in the right state of mind. Rudy has the mind of a 40 year old reincarnated, yet retains a childish behavior still befitting him as a powerful, yet immature kid. At this point, being immature, and unaware is less painful than that of Paul's situation. Paul is still an idiot for not doing more to rise above his failures, know his limits of faith, find his family and be glad if they are still around once he did. I've seen better dads that did that and more.

[Tenzen12]

Ok let's defend Paul. I would say it's exactly opposite. Rudy mostly act as adult. He is inteligent conscise and Paul never won single argument with him in past. If anything Rudy behavious is quite misleading, because no matter how mature he may seem, in his past life he never truly became adult, giving impression he is more reliable then he actually is.

As for "Good Parent would notice" argument, I call bull on that. How long it was they parted, four years or so? And it was period of time when Rudy grew and changed most. Hell even Paul himself is basically different person then he was year and half ago. Even without any incidents they may have hard time to reconnect. Not to mention he is so wasted because he tries find his children. How do you expect him to be "good parent". Somehow figure he will run into Rudy, take two weeks vacattion so he is in his top shape once they meet? If anything despite of his state he seems to be very good parent to Norn at least.

Again Paul was wrong, but not for reason you wrote.

[Ligerleon89]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

Ok let's defend Paul. I would say it's exactly opposite. Rudy mostly act as adult. He is inteligent conscise and Paul never won single argument with him in past. If anything Rudy behavious is quite misleading, because no matter how mature he may seem, in his past life he never truly became adult, giving impression he is more reliable then he actually is.

As for "Good Parent would notice" argument, I call bull on that. How long it was they parted, four years or so? And it was period of time when Rudy grew and changed most. Hell even Paul himself is basically different person then he was year and half ago. Even without any incidents they may have hard time to reconnect. Not to mention he is so wasted because he tries find his children. How do you expect him to be "good parent". Somehow figure he will run into Rudy, take two weeks vacattion so he is in his top shape once they meet? If anything despite of his state he seems to be very good parent to Norn at least.

Again Paul was wrong, but not for reason you wrote.

I just know whatever he felt from that scrap will turn to a realization of how much he messed up once someone points that out to him. I'm sorry, but this is the only few times I'm not interested in arguing the about that man any further. Maybe someone else will, but sometimes it's best not to read and analyze things too much. I can say Rudy messed up, but immature kids ain't that much problematic compared to an adult who should have known better with his son at least. Having Norn doesn't excuse his worst traits. I'm just waiting to see how much pathetic he's been as a person once he realizes. Thank you though for the conversation.

[gecd]

Looks like the anime will defends Paul

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

But isekai MCs characterization in anime don't fully apply IRL psychology. That's my point.

It's not really psychology itself but more statistical data about real life situations that we are talking about here, the fact that they are backed by psychological studies doesn't mean those aren't facts that would be true regardless of psychology. If you think speculations cannot be made based on real life situations then what are you basing your speculation on when you say:

As I & Klashikari said, simply growing up with parents won't make the child love them.

Because Klashikari, which you quoted, definitely mentioned real life situations to explain his point. But I would argue that as a matter of facts you did base many of your arguments before on how things work IRL, and in fact you often criticize the story whenever you feel it is "unrealistic". So it sounds decidedly hypocritical for you to now dismiss my argument because this is an Isekai protagonist and so IRL stuff doesn't apply.

[Tenzen12]

Originally Posted by gecd

Looks like the anime will defends Paul

Spoiler for yt:

It doesn't? I mean only way anime could possibly defend Paul is have Rudeus admit he doesn't care about his family and that preview doesn't appear to show anything close to that.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

It's not really psychology itself but more statistical data about real life situations that we are talking about here, the fact that they are backed by psychological studies doesn't mean those aren't facts that would be true regardless of psychology. If you think speculations cannot be made based on real life situations then what are you basing your speculation on when you say:

Because Klashikari, which you quoted, definitely mentioned real life situations to explain his point. But I would argue that as a matter of facts you did base many of your arguments before on how things work IRL, and in fact you often criticize the story whenever you feel it is "unrealistic". So it sounds decidedly hypocritical for you to now dismiss my argument because this is an Isekai protagonist and so IRL stuff doesn't apply.

When it comes to "whether Rudy genuinely loves his isekai-parents like actual parents", I do base my argument on how a son love their parents IRL to highlight how Rudy's situation is a lot more complex and his feelings for his isekai-parents can't be easily categorized as simple "son-parent love".

But even IRL, like I said, I wouldn't rely too much on psychological statistics especially the kind that you use where (paraphrasing) "minority is the abnormality, they are the ones that need to be explained while the majority need no explanation" especially when it involves something as complex as human psyche. Instead of leaning more into majority or minority statistics, I prefer to see individual psyche in "case by case" basis. I will never assume a child genuinely loves/hates his/her parents unconditionally before I see his/her behavior, situation & background first. When it comes to chilren who grow up with their parents in a relatively "normal" setting, there is always a level of caring from the children. But love/hate is a stronger feeling that needs closer inspection.

When it comes to anime-tropes or isekai-tropes where the MC is reincarnated, I don't think IRL psychology can fully apply due to the fantastical event these MCs have experienced. I mean, how do IRL psychology explain Rudy's feelings for his isekai-parents when he was mentally older than them since he was re-born as a baby? How do IRL psychology explain the exact psyche of someone being forcefully & permanently & biologically gender-changed or species-changed or changed into animals/monsters?

Also, since anime is fiction, the story will tell you how the MC feels most often than not. It's not like IRL where you have to dig deeper via investigation or counseling. It's relatively easier to see/feel the psyche of an MC. For example, compared to Rudy, the MC from Bookworm clearly loves her isekai-parents which we can see from both her behavior & her inner voice. Meanwhile, Rudy's inner voice often don't treat Paul & Zenith like parents, making his feelings towards his parents more muddy & complex which is probably by design.

[BWTraveller]

Personally, I think it's a little hard to say whether Rudy is in the right or wrong, whether he hated or loved his parents, or whether it was his fault or theirs. He went through a horrible trauma, one so severe that he could get a panic attack just stepping out to the front yard, and would have trouble keeping his cool even just looking out the window. It's kind of a given that he'd shut everyone out, even his parents, which would make it hard to maintain a relationship. At the same time, it doesn't seem like his parents gave him the help he sorely needed. Which makes sense, as he needed therapy and it's sadly even today quite uncommon for people to really accept such a thing. As I understand it, psychological problems can be seen as a form of weakness or something so more often than not the idea of actually accepting that there's a need for therapy is... unpleasant for many. Instead of giving him the help he needed though, they did just about the worst thing possible for him: they enabled the worst of his coping mechanisms. Ultimately he chose everything he did; he could've gone searching the net for online advice about how to deal with anxiety and trauma and all that instead of looking for porn, but still I'm not going to pretend his parents weren't unwittingly doing the worst thing they could do. It was a mess from end to end. From what was shown, I suspect for years, maybe a decade or more, he's been so thoroughly holed up that his parents were little more than voices on the other side of the floor, so I'm not terribly surprised he became detached.

As for Paul and Zenith, I'd say he does care quite a bit about them. But his love for them is not that of a son to his parents. I doubt he'd be able to feel that for them. When he first saw them he thought of them as "kids", since in his eyes they were at least a decade younger than him. I'd say his love for them is more that toward dear companions, people to whom he's indebted and who he genuinely likes (to varied extents). But of course, at this point they're a pair of companions he hasn't seen in something like half a decade. And as for why he was so much more concerned for Sylphie, even setting aside whether he already has romantic feelings for someone he only knew as a kindergarten-age child, he'd always had a very protective relationship with her. He watched out for her, taught her, kept her safe and made sure she never came to harm. In a sense, she's in a similar position to Eris. Even though he hasn't seen her in as long a time as the others, he still thinks of her as his responsibility, so naturally he'll think of her well being first.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

But even IRL, like I said, I wouldn't rely too much on psychological statistics especially the kind that you use where (paraphrasing) "minority is the abnormality, they are the ones that need to be explained while the majority need no explanation"

That's not quite what I said. Rather, mine was a response to your stating that we need a special reason to explain why would Rudy love his new parents. There is no special reason needed, the fact that they cared for him and treated him like their own child (I mean by any biological mean he is their own child) should be reason enough, backed by the fact this is in fact reason enough in a vast majority of such cases IRL. But regardless of parent-child relationships generally people tend to love those who love them (unless it's romantic love).

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

When it comes to anime-tropes or isekai-tropes where the MC is reincarnated, I don't think IRL psychology can fully apply due to the fantastical event these MCs have experienced. I mean, how do IRL psychology explain Rudy's feelings for his isekai-parents when he was mentally older than them since he was re-born as a baby? How do IRL psychology explain the exact psyche of someone being forcefully & permanently & biologically gender-changed or species-changed or changed into animals/monsters?

This is not a case so far from reality than you seem to suggest. This is basically the same as someone being adopted, and adoption can happen even at ages of 12, 14 and even 16. Granted adopting someone older than you isn't really happening, but if we are talking about mental age, someone could argue that Rudy has never really matured in his previous life. He doesn't have his original body anymore, so how exactly can we determine his actual age?

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Also, since anime is fiction, the story will tell you how the MC feels most often than not. It's not like IRL where you have to dig deeper via investigation or counseling. It's relatively easier to see/feel the psyche of an MC. For example, compared to Rudy, the MC from Bookworm clearly loves her isekai-parents which we can see from both her behavior & her inner voice. Meanwhile, Rudy's inner voice often don't treat Paul & Zenith like parents, making his feelings towards his parents more muddy & complex which is probably by design.

We can ignore all IRL examples and only focus on what the show is telling us, but that must go both ways. I can agree that Rudy doesn't quite see Zenith and Paul as their parents, but from what I can gather, and I'm not the only one, the story is clearly telling me that Rudy cares about his new parents a lot more than he cared about his original ones. Okay maybe that doesn't say much, but that alone is enough to counter your argument that "he didn't care about his original parents, so he doesn't care about his new parents". But I would argue that there is evidence enough that he cares a lot about them and he sees them as "family", because "family" doesn't necessarily means "parent" and doesn't necessarily need blood ties (even though he's technically blood-related to them biologically).

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's not quite what I said. Rather, mine was a response to your stating that we need a special reason to explain why would Rudy love his new parents. There is no special reason needed, the fact that they cared for him and treated him like their own child (I mean by any biological mean he is their own child) should be reason enough, backed by the fact this is in fact reason enough in a vast majority of such cases IRL. But regardless of parent-child relationships generally people tend to love those who love them (unless it's romantic love).

And that's the thing. I have said this a couple times in my past comments: You may feel that Rudy's behavior towards his isekai-parents is enough proof of him loving Paul & Zenith but it's not quite enough for me.

Like I said, strong examples of reincarnated MCs who truly love their isekai-parents are Myne from Bookworm & William from the currently-airing Faraway Paladin. And if you want a non-isekai example, there is Anos from Misfit Demon King Academy. Compared to them, Rudy's "love" for his parents is muddy & unclear.

Now, do you get my point? Feel free to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

This is not a case so far from reality than you seem to suggest. This is basically the same as someone being adopted, and adoption can happen even at ages of 12, 14 and even 16. Granted adopting someone older than you isn't really happening, but if we are talking about mental age, someone could argue that Rudy has never really matured in his previous life. He doesn't have his original body anymore, so how exactly can we determine his actual age?

Simply equalizing Rudy's situation to a simple adoption is really misguided IMO. You can argue about his mental age, but I can still call shenanigans considering Rudy's lecherousness is still comparable to other lecherous 40yo pedos IRL. Thus, I don't buy that Rudy's situation (& other quirky reincarnated MCs) can be perfectly explained by IRL psychology. This is yet another differing view that we have.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

We can ignore all IRL examples and only focus on what the show is telling us, but that must go both ways. I can agree that Rudy doesn't quite see Zenith and Paul as their parents, but from what I can gather, and I'm not the only one, the story is clearly telling me that Rudy cares about his new parents a lot more than he cared about his original ones. Okay maybe that doesn't say much, but that alone is enough to counter your argument that "he didn't care about his original parents, so he doesn't care about his new parents". But I would argue that there is evidence enough that he cares a lot about them and he sees them as "family", because "family" doesn't necessarily means "parent" and doesn't necessarily need blood ties (even though he's technically blood-related to them biologically).

I already made my point clear to Klashikari:

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

You see, even "not caring much" has levels. If Rudy's caring level for his OG parents were 2/10 and then I feel his caring level for his Isekai-parents is 4/10, I can still say that Rudy doesn't care much for both versions of his parents. Now, do you see my point?

You either take it or leave it.

[BWTraveller]

You can't compare Rudy's relationship with Paul and Zenith with RL relationships between kids and parents. How many kids do you know came out of their mother's womb with thirty-something years of memory and thus saw his parents as immature children based on their age alone? You're not going to be able to develop a real, proper parent-child relationship when you've already passed most of the milestones they'd normally help you with and were fully conscious, capable of complete comprehension the moment you opened your eyes and saw someone who as far as you're concerned is far younger than you. That's why I said I think he loves them dearly, but as friends, companions that he hadn't seen in years.

Also, no Rudy is never indicated to have tried to peep on his parents for the purpose of “jacking off”. He made it quite clear he just thought it’d be hilarious to watch them squirm and struggle to explain the situation. He even said well before that that he’s never gotten turned on by Zenith’s body past that first encounter.

[azenable]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I did say in one of my comments that Rudy's situation is complex:

And thanks to that, his behaviour towards his isekai-parents can't be easily categorized in a simple "son love his parents" in a straight way. And for me, Rudy's 40yo pedo/lecherous/scum personality kinda makes me doubting him. Remember, this is a "son" who has no problem peeking at his parents having sex for jacking off material (thank god he got distracted at the time).

I only watch the anime. So if the anime deliberately portray him like a scum then that's what I get.

But isekai MCs characterization in anime don't fully apply IRL psychology. That's my point.

that what I get after being in this forum for years...many ppl like to apply IRL principle and perspective to anime fantasy, pre-modern day setting..just enjoy the anime..

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

You can't compare Rudy's relationship with Paul and Zenith with RL relationships between kids and parents.

How many times do I have to say this? I did the comparison precisely to highlight the complexity of Rudy's situation.

Heck, even compared to other isekai MCs, Rudy's "son-parent love" is rather arbitrary. If you consider Rudy's feeling is only "love between friends" then you're actually supporting my argument that Rudy doesn't consider Paul & Zenith as his parents and doesn't love them as such.

This is getting really old.

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Also, no Rudy is never indicated to have tried to peep on his parents for the purpose of “jacking off”. He made it quite clear he just thought it’d be hilarious to watch them squirm and struggle to explain the situation. He even said well before that that he’s never gotten turned on by Zenith’s body past that first encounter.

You can drop the "jacking off material"-part just fine. But the fact that Rudy has no problem purposefully & gleefuly barging in when Paul & Zenith were having sex just to see them panicking shows you that he doesn't consider them much of parental figures. Which is one of my points in the first place.

Like seriously, how many times do I have to repeat myself by answering replies that don't get my points? Just say that you disagree and just go back to wait for another episode.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

And that's the thing. I have said this a couple times in my past comments: You may feel that Rudy's behavior towards his isekai-parents is enough proof of him loving Paul & Zenith but it's not quite enough for me.

For no actual valid reason? If you claim it's just a feeling of yours then we can leave it at that. If you think you can bring logical arguments for that, then I can argue back.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Simply equalizing Rudy's situation to a simple adoption is really misguided IMO. You can argue about his mental age, but I can still call shenanigans considering Rudy's lecherousness is still comparable to other lecherous 40yo pedos IRL.

What I get from that is that you are biased toward Rudy for his perverted nature. Since he's a pervert then you consider him a shitty person in general and you automatically blame him for anything else, even if it is not directly related to his established flaws.
I probed you in case there was a more logical explanation as to why you believe Rudy to be a heartless person and the only culprit for his lack of attachment to his previous parents, but there doesn't really seem to be anything.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Thus, I don't buy that Rudy's situation (& other quirky reincarnated MCs) can be perfectly explained by IRL psychology. This is yet another differing view that we have.

I never said that Rudy's situation can be "perfectly explained by IRL psychology".

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

You see, even "not caring much" has levels. If Rudy's caring level for his OG parents were 2/10 and then I feel his caring level for his Isekai-parents is 4/10, I can still say that Rudy doesn't care much for both versions of his parents. Now, do you see my point?

So basically you confirm that your "point" is just how you "feel"?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

For no actual valid reason? If you claim it's just a feeling of yours then we can leave it at that. If you think you can bring logical arguments for that, then I can argue back.

As per the comparison with other isekai MCs that I have suggested as supporting factors. As per Rudy's behavior who never really consider Paul & Zenith his actual parents. And as per my own thinking of what counts as "love".

I did say numerous times in my previous comments that "I never said Rudy has zero-caring for Paul & Zenith". Just not strong enough to count as love.

Now what? You want to argue about the true definition of love?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

What I get from that is that you are biased toward Rudy for his perverted nature. Since he's a pervert then you consider him a shitty person in general and you automatically blame him for anything else, even if it is not directly related to his established flaws.
I probed you in case there was a more logical explanation as to why you believe Rudy to be a heartless person and the only culprit for his lack of attachment to his previous parents, but there doesn't really seem to be anything.

See the bolded part? That's a massive strawman that I never said or commit. Why should I respond to such strawman?

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I never said that Rudy's situation can be "perfectly explained by IRL psychology".

You can drop the "perfectly" and Rudy's situation is still too much for IRL psychology to fully comprehend.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So basically you confirm that your "point" is just how you "feel"?

At the end of the day, how much Rudy cares for his isekai-parents is up to the viewers opinion & interpretation, right?

There is definitely some level of caring there (which I acknowledge from the start), but there is no universal way to measure it or count it.