GITS: SAC 2045 (New Ghost in the Shell) [Netflix]

[Kanon]

The ending just left me confused.

Spoiler:

What is "double think" exactly? Living in the real world and a virtual world at the same time? Or the virtual world overlaying the real one?

I was pretty disappointed the show never explored the implication of the Major bringing Purin back from the dead. They could have debated whether she was truly alive, but the answer is given to us as an afterthought: she has no Ghost, she's just an AI with Purin's memories programmed to act like she would. That said, she could be the next step for humanity (immortality), but would it still be humanity?

Oh, and I found it pretty amusing that glasses were printed for her but not clothes. Come to think of it, Suzuka also printed glasses for her remote controlled body in the submarine. What does it all mean?

Horrible visuals aside, this wasn't a bad installment. I certainly liked it better than Arise. Might even have been a hit if they had stuck with traditional animation, tons of people refuse to watch it because it's 3D.

[Nachtwandler]

Sola DA may have not the best CGI out there but they generally make great action scenes for their series.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Kanon

The ending just left me confused.

Spoiler:

What is "double think" exactly? Living in the real world and a virtual world at the same time? Or the virtual world overlaying the real one?

From what I understood, people who are double thinking don't even realize it, so it's probably like an overlay. Kinda like a super advanced augmented reality, like a filter. So advanced you don't even realize it's there.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Wait, since Section 9 personnels' memory about Purin are wiped except for Motoko, Batou (& probably Togusa), does that mean Motoko let the Double Think plan go? Or did their memory got manipulated by the pods? I'm also confused here.

But all in all,

Spoiler for death of a major character:

RIP to OG Purin. She did great and died a hero. It's not too often that someone can mourn their own death and apologize to their loved ones after the fact, but Purin 2.0 get such luxury. The whole thing is still sad though.

Originally Posted by Kanon

Horrible visuals aside,

I never understand this kind of sentiment for SAC 2045 (not just from you but many others, obviously). I mean, just from texture alone, this anime surpassed all anime that's been done by Polygon like Sidonia, Ajin & many others. Yet, I don't remember you refer to them having horrible visuals. I get it if you don't jive with how the characters look (which I personally find better looking than the above titles) but the visuals have been pleasing for the eyes be it the environment, technology & action.

Heck, the current Ultraman Netflix & Pacific Rim Black even have (much) stiffer characters than SAC 2045. So, if we're talking about horrible 3DCG anime, what standard are we basing it on? Some people said Beastars is better but that's mostly because the characters are anthro-animals that audience can easily excuse for moving rather clunky. Some will say Dorohedoro is better but, again, there are a lot of nonhuman characters in that anime. Are we going to compare SAC 2045 quality with movies like Gantz 0 or Triple-A game cutscenes like current Final Fantasy?

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

So, if we're talking about horrible 3DCG anime, what standard are we basing it on?

Literally anything that isn't Arcane.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

Literally anything that isn't Arcane.

Just because Arcane is excellent, doesn't mean others are automatically horrible. There are layers of good/bad. If Arcane is the king of the hill, and Berserk 3D & Ex-Arm are the bottom of the barrel, there's still a wide space in between. And I believe SAC 2045 is still in the upper echelon somewhere below Arcane, making the show looking pretty good.

[Last Sinner]

With all due respect, this 'version' of GITS defiles the Major and Batou so much, amongst others, that it holds no value for me at all. It feels like someone is scripting live-action figurine fights. But fair, there are so many titles that make it feel like acrylic stand fights instead, so I guess it has that goes for it.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

I also want to highlight the excellent action direction & coreography in this season:

• The shoot-out involving Motoko who had to reverse/back up the truck from the highway all the way up to the toll gate amidst a rain of bullets & rockets is very good.
• The highway battle against Suzuka that didn't only involve Motoko but also Paz & Purin. The way Suzuka avoided the barrage (even from multiple Tachikomas) with a combination of breakdance, capoeira & parkour moves is simply awesome & have never been seen in many anime (if at all). Not to mention the jumbo jet that barely scraped by the buildings really cranked the stakes up to 11.
• The Shin-Tokyo battle that pretty much took a big portion of this season (from episode 8 to 11) in itself was a big highlight. It's not an outright war but we have some real good stuffs in here. Putting aside all the blood-pumping twists & turns, we have a competing battle between Section 9 & Navy SEALs in such a messy-but-exciting display of firepower & tactics. The SEALs suits look cool as if they leapt straight from Masamune Shirow's mangas and the raining of bullets between the SEALs & Tachikomas was just a joy to watch.
• There's also a shot from the POV of a swinging Tachikomas that feels dope.
• And pretty much every hand-to-hand fight involving Post-human was an excellent piece of coreography which, even though not flashy, but actually feels fresher even compared to One Punch Man, My Hero Academia or Mob Psycho's usual punches, kicks, slashes, swings & energy blasts no matter how gorgeous the handdrawn were. The post-humans simply had many acrobatic moves and combine that with how the director competently made use of the environment & geography (coz this is 3D) makes for an engaging (and sometimes visceral) fight.

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

With all due respect, this 'version' of GITS defiles the Major and Batou so much, amongst others....

I mean, visual aside (you already established that you hate it), how did SAC 2045 defiles Motoko & Batou exactly?

[Kanon]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I never understand this kind of sentiment for SAC 2045 (not just from you but many others, obviously). I mean, just from texture alone, this anime surpassed all anime that's been done by Polygon like Sidonia, Ajin & many others. Yet, I don't remember you refer to them having horrible visuals. I get it if you don't jive with how the characters look (which I personally find better looking than the above titles) but the visuals have been pleasing for the eyes be it the environment, technology & action.

Heck, the current Ultraman Netflix & Pacific Rim Black even have (much) stiffer characters than SAC 2045. So, if we're talking about horrible 3DCG anime, what standard are we basing it on? Some people said Beastars is better but that's mostly because the characters are anthro-animals that audience can easily excuse for moving rather clunky. Some will say Dorohedoro is better but, again, there are a lot of nonhuman characters in that anime. Are we going to compare SAC 2045 quality with movies like Gantz 0 or Triple-A game cutscenes like current Final Fantasy?

The environments look very nice and the animation is good, but the character models are what I find horrible. They look like plastic dolls. I much prefer the style used in the series you mentioned, where they actually look like anime characters rather than Barbies. Even though the rest isn't bad, it makes the entire series look super cheap.

[Last Sinner]

Originally Posted by Kanon

The environments look very nice and the animation is good, but the character models are what I find horrible. They look like plastic dolls. I much prefer the style used in the series you mentioned, where they actually look like anime characters rather than Barbies. Even though the rest isn't bad, it makes the entire series look super cheap.

THAT is exactly my issue...

They don't look like the characters I know one bit...The Major is one of anime's true badasses. She looks like she's about to go on stage for an idol show in this...Batou looks like he's 70 and his face is about to fall out...not that gritty, hard-as-nails guy. The voice acting feels completely out of sync with the visuals as a result and I just can't buy into believing this..

I don't know what the hell happened to GITS after the two SAC series. I'm sure there's some intriguing political rhetoric and social dystopian content still, but they killed one of anime's golden gooses with going this path.

[Nachtwandler]

In general it looks like anime fans bash anything CGI not made by Orange.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Last Sinner

They don't look like the characters I know one bit...The Major is one of anime's true badasses. She looks like she's about to go on stage for an idol show in this...Batou looks like he's 70 and his face is about to fall out...not that gritty, hard-as-nails guy.

Again, this kind of complaint is hard to believe. Let me present you a direct comparison:

This is Batou in his SAC days:




This is Batou in 2045:




If anything, it's the SAC one that looks like he's 70. The 2045 show actually made him look (much) younger .


And this is Motoko in her SAC days:





This is Motoko in 2045:



Yeah, I don't see one being more idol than the other. If anything, 2045 Motoko actually has a more practical haircut for battle and she doesn't wear photoshoot-ready bathing suit most of the time like in SAC .

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

In general it looks like anime fans bash anything CGI not made by Orange.

Indeed.

[Kazu-kun]

I see the main complain is simply the fact the show doesn't try to mimic the 2D anime look. Fair enough but I personally see no problems with this. Trying to make 3DCG look like 2D animation always gives mixed results. I could count the shows that kinda nailed it with a single hand, and even then it just feels fake anyway. So I actually appreciate this show isn't even trying.

My only issue with the graphics was the lack of details in the character models and backgrounds in the first season, but that has largely been resolved in the second season.

[Yu Ominae]

Decided to dive into the OST.

So far, liked Noiseless Warzone.

[Ghostfriendly]

I can't see that Batou looks to be in his 70s, but he does look like a Ken doll in 2045, to add to his long-term castration complex. It's not bad CGI...but it's CGI. The more finely rendered, the more glaringly artificial; nothing like as expressive or humanised as Batou's previous designs. These are cyborgs, but the softness of the Major's 2045 face gives that impression much less effectively than the hard lines of traditional animation.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I also want to highlight the excellent action direction & coreography in this season:

The best of it was visually about as good as the best of Blade Runner: Black Lotus, and that had more effective fight scenes. Even more than visuals, action needs to have meaning, and a more convincing threat than evil-Americans clichés. The SEALs were laughable as the elite special forces of the world's last superpower and no threat at all compared to the Umibouzu; the whole Shin-Tokyo battle was really a lot of pointless zooming up and down, in a situation too contrived for 'tactics' to have any significance, with no sense of urgency or excitement at all. The highway battle against US special forces in ep 2 was even less exciting; the CGI models don't convey tense concentration very well.

Post-human breakdancing was technically very good, but it worked much better with the immediately threatening hand-to-hand combat of Blade Runner than showy barrages in SAC 2045. Not that Blade Runner was a very good anime, but fresher and more interesting than SAC 2045, despite an even older franchise.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

I can't see that Batou looks to be in his 70s, but he does look like a Ken doll in 2045, to add to his long-term castration complex. It's not bad CGI...but it's CGI. The more finely rendered, the more glaringly artificial; nothing like as expressive or humanised as Batou's previous designs. These are cyborgs, but the softness of the Major's 2045 face gives that impression much less effectively than the hard lines of traditional animation.

Kanon already said the same thing about the "doll" stuff. You're basically just repeating him. And yes, even you admitted that the complaint of "Batou looking 70" in SAC 2045 was out of place.

And let's face it, if you rewatch SAC now, you'll notice that Motoko's face was already off-model as early as episode 4. After that, only some select episodes have the characters drawn consistently on-model. So it's not like SAC was this holy ground of handdrawn animation. And have you seen the bad CG cars in it?

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

The best of it was visually about as good as the best of Blade Runner: Black Lotus, and that had more effective fight scenes. Even more than visuals, action needs to have meaning, and a more convincing threat than evil-Americans clichés. The SEALs were laughable as the elite special forces of the world's last superpower and no threat at all compared to the Umibouzu; the whole Shin-Tokyo battle was really a lot of pointless zooming up and down, in a situation too contrived for 'tactics' to have any significance, with no sense of urgency or excitement at all. The highway battle against US special forces in ep 2 was even less exciting; the CGI models don't convey tense concentration very well.

Post-human breakdancing was technically very good, but it worked much better with the immediately threatening hand-to-hand combat of Blade Runner than showy barrages in SAC 2045. Not that Blade Runner was a very good anime, but fresher and more interesting than SAC 2045, despite an even older franchise.

I simply disagree with your opinion and basically can turn all your comment above around in favor of SAC 2045.

[Ghostfriendly]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Kanon already said the same thing about the "doll" stuff. You're basically just repeating him. And yes, even you admitted that the complaint of "Batou looking 70" in SAC 2045 was out of place.

And let's face it, if you rewatch SAC now, you'll notice that Motoko's face was already off-model as early as episode 4. After that, only some select episodes have the characters drawn consistently on-model. So it's not like SAC was this holy ground of handdrawn animation. And have you seen the bad CG cars in it?

Agreeing with Kanon's valid point, in part, rather than repeating. Didn't say original SAC was holy ground, only that Batou's design more effectively evoked a human being than the CGI models in SAC 2045, which don't do so particularly well.

I simply disagree with your opinion and basically can turn all your comment above around in favor of SAC 2045.

Not a meaningful exercise, since 2045 and Black Lotus both have more to condemn than praise. It isn't an opinion that action must have meaning; otherwise it's just a Michael Bay movie, which 2045 was perhaps slower than. Or that SAC 2045 portrayal of the US is anything more than a joke, which, along with incredibly tired 1984 references, fatally cripples any sense of threat that Section 9 is faced with.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

It isn't an opinion that action must have meaning; otherwise its just a Michael Bay movie, which 2045 was perhaps slower than. Or that SAC 2045 portrayal of the US is anything more than a joke, which, along with incredibly tired 1984 references, fatally cripples any sense of threat that Section 9 is faced with.

Did you miss the part where Section 9 had to protect the boy and his assistant from the US who wanted to erase all the evidence of their own fuck-up with the post-human?

And no, that's not a joke portrayal of US government. They already killed thousands of innocents just in order to "kill terrorists" and covering their fuck ups IRL.

[Ghostfriendly]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Did you miss the part where Section 9 had to protect the boy and his assistant from the US who wanted to erase all the evidence of their own fuck-up with the post-human?

And no, that's not a joke portrayal of US government. They already killed thousands of innocents just in order to "kill terrorists" and covering their fuck ups IRL.

And of course the Japanese heroes defeated the foolish American Imperialists. Who might have killed the boy and his assistant, or any number of people, or been less laughably ineffective than the SEALs and Clown's team, for forces that should be at least on par with Section 9. It wouldn't have threatened the heroes, or have made the GITS American Empire any less of a cliché; a country that has never existed. I'm aware of publicised US misdeeds, but they don't represent the whole country, the whole government, or the whole US influence on the world. GITS demonstrates no significant understanding of US society, internal politics or factors that encourage, permit or resist its worst actions; it's simply pandering to familiar, superficial anti-American prejudice, a very faintly troubling view of Japan's own history, and the lamentable Hollywood racism all too readily transmitted from the US, as represented by Clown. Anti-Americanism has been part of GITS from 1989; the satire of the Phoenix Project in original SAC was very reasonable, but keeping the focus firmly on Japanese villains in previous seasons made them a lot more acceptable than this one.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Ghostfriendly

And of course the Japanese heroes defeated the foolish American Imperialists. Who might have killed the boy and his assistant, or any number of people, or been less laughably ineffective than the SEALs and Clown's team, for forces that should be at least on par with Section 9. It wouldn't have threatened the heroes, or have made the GITS American Empire any less of a cliché; a country that has never existed. I'm aware of publicised US misdeeds, but they don't represent the whole country, the whole government, or the whole US influence on the world. GITS demonstrates no significant understanding of US society, internal politics or factors that encourage, permit or resist its worst actions; it's simply pandering to familiar, superficial anti-American prejudice, a very faintly troubling view of Japan's own history, and the lamentable Hollywood racism all too readily transmitted from the US, as represented by Clown. Anti-Americanism has been part of GITS from 1989; the satire of the Phoenix Project in original SAC was very reasonable, but keeping the focus firmly on Japanese villains in previous seasons made them a lot more acceptable than this one.

Did you just ignore the last episode of this show where everyone basically lost? Even Motoko was at the mercy of the boy.

And who said that the last arc represent the whole US country? The show only showed us that there's a group of US SEALs who aimed to kill the boy & the girl to erase the evidence. Of course they're just simply call them "the US" instead of "a certain faction of US military with a political interest in it". The show already considered the target audience to be smart enough to know. But I guess you're not part of that target audience