(L) Arifureta Shokugyou de Sekai Saikyou [WN]

[borisdrakoni]

Originally Posted by sierra117

So the rest of the Liberators weren't able to sublime their AM to conceptual magics?

They were all able to touch on the realm of concept after their training at the end of volume 5, but Gravity magic is worlds apart in terms of its offensive capabilities. Like Miledi said to Yue before, it's the strongest of the ancient magics.

[Huh...?]

Yeah, the other Ancient Magics are more about manipulating something or increasing the strength of something.

But direct offensive wise, only Gravity Magic & Spatial Magic are more superior (though the scope is different between those two).

Creation Magic, Metamorphosis Magic & Evolution Magic, have almost no offensive capabilities by themselves, as they are directly related to manipulating life & matter.

Spirit Magic is based on a concept which while can have the power to potential kill a person in one-shot (by destroying a person's Soul or Astral being). But it also lacks the offensive power.

Restoration Magic is able to manipulate Time, which might seem big on paper. But it lacks offensive power and i think we haven't even seen someone being directly killed by it (like killing someone by forcefully aging them either in forward or backward), primarily because it was mostly misunderstood as a Healing ability.

[borisdrakoni]

Originally Posted by Huh...?

Restoration Magic is able to manipulate Time, which might seem big on paper. But it lacks offensive power and i think we haven't even seen someone being directly killed by it (like killing someone by forcefully aging them either in forward or backward), primarily because it was mostly misunderstood as a Healing ability.

Restoration magic has some offensive potential, like how Yue used it in volume 6 to bring back the wounds Hajime had previously inflicted on Fried. I'm also pretty sure that the concept magic Hajime created to return all the pain and suffering Ehit had ever caused also relies heavily on time manipulation. Generally speaking, though, it is more of a supportive type of magic, which is why Meiru typically relies on water manipulation spells when fighting.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by borisdrakoni

They were all able to touch on the realm of concept after their training at the end of volume 5, but Gravity magic is worlds apart in terms of its offensive capabilities. Like Miledi said to Yue before, it's the strongest of the ancient magics.

Creation magic has the greatest potential power of them all due to versatility and ability to wield AM. Yet great minds like Hajime and Oscar who could utilize it to its full potential are rare. Gravity is stronger and more easily used at lower levelsto medium levels and is still powerful high level. Creation magic is more of an endgame class.

[sierra117]

That's probably the reason why the Orcus Dungeon was designed to be the last Dungeon to be conquered after you had conquered all the other 6 first

[Huh...?]

Originally Posted by borisdrakoni

Restoration magic has some offensive potential, like how Yue used it in volume 6 to bring back the wounds Hajime had previously inflicted on Fried.

Yeah, it has that one, but its a situational one.
Like, against Shea that spell wouldn't really work properly, because she had rarely taken any heavy damage because of her Prediction Skill, plus we know she can just bare it all with her Willpower.
And in case of Tio, it would basically be useless because of her Pain Conversion Skill. She might recoil a bit because of sudden appearance of damage, but it would be quickly changed to power in her case.

Originally Posted by borisdrakoni

I'm also pretty sure that the concept magic Hajime created to return all the pain and suffering Ehit had ever caused also relies heavily on time manipulation.

Well, Concept Magic has a lot of things going on for it, and that Spell was practically a 1-time use type as it had the remaining energy from Destroy All Creation Chain spell (or whatever its name was) that Hajime used before.

Originally Posted by borisdrakoni

Generally speaking, though, it is more of a supportive type of magic, which is why Meiru typically relies on water manipulation spells when fighting.

Yeah, it is primarily a supportive type like Creation Magic, Metamorphosis Magic & Evolution Magic.
But i considered it separately from them primarily because of its somewhat low direct offensive capabilities.

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Creation magic has the greatest potential power of them all due to versatility and ability to wield AM. Yet great minds like Hajime and Oscar who could utilize it to its full potential are rare.
Creation magic is more of an endgame class.

Problem with Creation Magic is that, it is heavily dependent on Imagination, the ability to directly manipulate Mana & access to other forms of Magic.

Even if one has Imagination, if they can't directly manipulate mana, it would be hard for them to make anything easily (since they would have to depend on traditional system, which is the reason why Synergist were seen as low class Job).

And if they don't have access to multiple forms of Ancient Magic (like Hajime) or have heavy knowledge in Magic (like Oscar), it would be pretty difficult to create powerful Artifacts.

Plus its also limited in the fact that its space constraint as well.
Because without Storage Magic, it is hard to carry all the powerful Artifacts easily (like Oscar for example, before i think Naiz helped him with Space Magic, he was pretty limited to what he could carry around with him).

So, yeah, while Creation Magic has potential to be a endgame class, but its pretty limited and restricted.
This is also same for Metamorphosis Magic, as it also does the same thing as Creation Magic, but on Organic Matter instead.

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

Gravity is stronger and more easily used at lower levels to medium levels and is still powerful high level.

I wouldn't really say that Gravity Magic is easy to use, since technically you are trying to manipulate the power of Star, and even its basic Spells are pretty taxing (seen from how hard they are on Kousuke during AS).

If you ask me, i would say that the most simplest Ancient Magic to use are Creation Magic and Metamorphosis Magic
Because they aren't directly related to the users own power, but rather dependent on what user has access to.

If a person solely devote to only creating Artifacts with Creation Magic, then they can manage almost everything that Hajime & Oscar had created, but they would take longer to do so and need help from multiple aspects.

Similarly, if they have access to Monsters, then a Metamorphosis Magic user can create better version of them depending on what other stuff they have access to.

Originally Posted by sierra117

That's probably the reason why the Orcus Dungeon was designed to be the last Dungeon to be conquered after you had conquered all the other 6 first

I think its primarily because, Creation Magic is heavily dependent on the other forms of Magic to be viably useful in combat (if you don't have some understanding of modern Physics and Chemistry).

[borisdrakoni]

Originally Posted by sierra117

That's probably the reason why the Orcus Dungeon was designed to be the last Dungeon to be conquered after you had conquered all the other 6 first

The main reason Orcus created as the final labyrinth was because its concept was intended to be a battle gauntlet that challengers could use to train themselves. No one was expecting another Oscar to come along who could use Creation magic so effectively.

[cyberdemon]

Originally Posted by borisdrakoni

The main reason Orcus created as the final labyrinth was because its concept was intended to be a battle gauntlet that challengers could use to train themselves. No one was expecting another Oscar to come along who could use Creation magic so effectively.

It was probably a test to see if groups could recognize the strength potential of synergysts. Most would likely cast them aside as liabilities, see the early treatment of Hajime, early on making any victory their hollow if there isn’t a synergyst to benefit from it.

[borisdrakoni]

Originally Posted by cyberdemon

It was probably a test to see if groups could recognize the strength potential of synergysts. Most would likely cast them aside as liabilities, see the early treatment of Hajime, early on making any victory their hollow if there isnÂ’t a synergyst to benefit from it.

If you look back at the prologue in Zero volume 1, Miledi called Hajime being a synergist like Oscar an amazing coincidence, indicating her surprise. The Liberators were never expecting another synergist to take on the labyrinths. How useful any particular ancient magic was to the conqueror was never taken into consideration. Their goal was just to gather all 7 of their magics into a single person, no matter who it was, because they theorized that an individual would have an easier time producing concept magic, which was essential to defeating Ehit.

[Huh...?]

Clip from OVA

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[borisdrakoni]

Monster CGI notwithstanding, I like what I see. They did a great job introducing the Liberators, and the actors nailed their chemistry. Of course, Myuu’s cuteness really steals the show. Shirakome reinforced the hint at the end of Zero that she’s Diene’s descendant, so her meeting with Meiru feels a lot more significant now.

[cyberdemon]

I’ve been thinking this but Hajime has a lot of connections to the liberators besides just their magic.

Oscar: disciple
Miledi: met
Naiz: knows his descendants
Meiru: unconfirmed but probably married and father to her sisters descendants
Laus: married to his descendant
Vandre: speculative on my part but if you consider his relationship with the vampire king at the end of zero, his brother could potentially be Yue’s ancestor.

Only Lyu has no direct connection

[RDNexus]

Hajime met Naiz's descendants?
And married Laus's descendant?
I'm a bit lost, could you explain?

[sierra117]

i think Va ndre has a higher chance of being Tio's ancestor than Yue's

[borisdrakoni]

Originally Posted by RDNexus

Hajime met Naiz's descendants?
And married Laus's descendant?
I'm a bit lost, could you explain?

The new pope, Simon, introduced in LN volume 7 is Naiz's descendant. Liliana is Laus' descendant. There are more connections as well.

Assuming the vampire royal family remained the same throughout the ages despite the change in kingdom name, then Meiru would be distantly related to Yue, and Yue would also be the descendant of Oscar's adopted sister Katy. There's a bit of a hint that the Haulia tribe may have been founded by one of Kiara's children as well, which would make Shea distantly related to the Masaka family.

[RDNexus]

I could believe each Liberator having a descendant in the present time.
The author might've done so as a way of them leaving legacies other than the labyrinths.

[sierra117]

Originally Posted by RDNexus

I could believe each Liberator having a descendant in the present time.
The author might've done so as a way of them leaving legacies other than the labyrinths.

It could actually be more, considering that there were literal millennia between Zero and current era, it would not be a surprise for bloodlines to propagated and blended in every where

[Huh...?]

Originally Posted by RDNexus

I could believe each Liberator having a descendant in the present time.

Well, if you consider the whole Liberator Group, then yeah.

But if you only consider the Top 7, then a lot of them don't have any direct descendants.

Like Oscar & Miledi are almost confirmed to have no direct descendant.
As for Meiru, Vandre & Lyutillis, its unclear (though there are hints of Meiru's & Vandre's relatives having descendants in current era).

The only one's who have confirmed direct are Naiz (aka., Simon & Sibyl) and Laus (aka., Sharm and his descendants like Liliana & Lundel)

[cyberdemon]

I have to wonder but was there anything enforcing Lyu to stay in her labyrinth? Being in the sea of trees, I feel she could go out and Ehit wouldn’t even know. Though I guess if she was stuck in the sky portion, an apostle could keep an eye on her.

Originally Posted by sierra117

i think Va ndre has a higher chance of being Tio's ancestor than Yue's

I wasn’t talking about Vandre but his brother who took refuge with the vampires and became an advisor to the vampire king whose not afraid of mixing blood with other races.

[Huh...?]

Light Novel Vol.13 Cover