(CR) Mushoku Tensei: Jobless Reincarnation Season 2

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by SuitUp

What gets to me is how not only is it hard to stomach, but how utterly pointless it is, id be willing to bet good money that the child and zenoba both mean absolutely jackshit in the grand scheme of things of the shows plotline, remove both of them and im sure no one would even notice.

That's actually

Spoiler for Future spoilers:

wrong.

[Mad Pierrot]

Just seen preview pics of the next episode. My fears of Raphtalia 2.0 are kinda gone based on what I saw.

[scififan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

That's actually

Spoiler for Future spoilers:

wrong.

I get his point. Even Rudy could be irrelevant or relevant in the grand scheme of thing.

Spoiler:

The problem of the creator is he devoted a lot of time on each and every minor characters. It turns out the story is all about prequal, and the creator is not able to come up the main story yet. The main characters are actually side character, while few side characters are actually keys that drive the main plot.

[Mad Pierrot]

I'm starting to believe the author is completely aware of how controversial are the themes of his novel. Rudeus being perverted is probably the least controversial theme in the entire series. A lot of season 1 characters changed across the two cours and I hope the same will happen to the season 2 ones (the ones from the recent guild are kinda filler for the light novel so they might never reappear)

[Jaden]

I don't especially mind slavery in my fantasy, but it is a bit jarring to have this multi racial utopia academy right next to slave markets. To stay consistent with the gross realism, slaves would be mainly demihumans, and they definitely wouldn't be taught magic.

[scififan]

Originally Posted by Jaden

To stay consistent with the gross realism, slaves would be mainly demihumans, and they definitely wouldn't be taught magic.

What is gross realism? Magic in real world is just an optical illusion and mental trick.

To stay consistent with the realism, there were occupation called ludi magister and paedagogus.

[TheForsaken]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I don't especially mind slavery in my fantasy, but it is a bit jarring to have this multi racial utopia academy right next to slave markets. To stay consistent with the gross realism, slaves would be mainly demihumans, and they definitely wouldn't be taught magic.

Slavery associated with race is a very modern thing. In fact, race itself is a very modern concept. In the past, no one cares about race.
In Roman times, a Roman who was in debt could sell himself and his family into slavery, just like what happened to the girl in this episode.

[Huh...?]

I guess people forget that it was mentioned before on how some of the survivors of the Teleportation Incident ended up becoming Slaves (even Lilia technical had become a slave until Rudy rescued her), and how Paul and his group had to steal them to rescue the people as they couldn't buy them back. And the Fitoria region primarily had high Human population.

Also, it is not the Author who added stuff thinking it would be controversial. It's the people who are watching it have become too sensitive and are complaining about it.

I mean, people knew about mention of slaves in this series for nearly 10 years now, from the WN, LN and Manga source. But almost no reader had issue until now. Only when it got covered in Anime does people have issue.
Also, why is it that only when Japanese Anime is concerned, that people have issue with these type of topics, when plenty of Western shows had constantly showcased this topic on a regular basis.

On another note, here is Author's reply on the usage of Slavery concept in the plot.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/int...lavery/.201346
Seriously, why do Author's have to explain stuff like this when there is no need.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by Huh...?

I guess people forget that it was mentioned before on how some of the survivors of the Teleportation Incident ended up becoming Slaves (even Lilia technical had become a slave until Rudy rescued her), and how Paul and his group had to steal them to rescue the people as they couldn't buy them back. And the Fitoria region primarily had high Human population.

Also, it is not the Author who added stuff thinking it would be controversial. It's the people who are watching it have become too sensitive and are complaining about it.

I mean, people knew about mention of slaves in this series for nearly 10 years now, from the WN, LN and Manga source. But almost no reader had issue until now. Only when it got covered in Anime does people have issue.
Also, why is it that only when Japanese Anime is concerned, that people have issue with these type of topics, when plenty of Western shows had constantly showcased this topic on a regular basis.

On another note, here is Author's reply on the usage of Slavery concept in the plot.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/int...lavery/.201346
Seriously, why do Author's have to explain stuff like this when there is no need.

Some people are more sensitive to the matter due to their ancestry roots. And for many who hold negative feelings toward it, I'd reckon that their main gripe is less with the depiction of slavery in a fantasy world itself but more with the depiction of Rudeus's level of concern towards it, given that he came from 'our' world.

And imo, I feel it's fine if they are vocal about the displeasure they felt, as long as they are not being toxic to others. Just like how others might find certain content such as fictional rape distasteful and expressing their negative thoughts on it, even if it might be integral to the plot of the story a writer may be wanting to tell.

[Huh...?]

Originally Posted by larethian

Some people are more sensitive to the matter due to their ancestry roots. And for many who hold negative feelings toward it, I'd reckon that their main gripe is less with the depiction of slavery in a fantasy world itself but more with the depiction of Rudeus's level of concern towards it, given that he came from 'our' world.

And imo, I feel it's fine if they are vocal about the displeasure they felt, as long as they are not being toxic to others. Just like how others might find certain content such as fictional rape distasteful and expressing their negative thoughts on it, even if it might be integral to the plot of the story a writer may be wanting to tell.

Well, the problem with that would be eventually there wouldn't be any plot to write a story about. As people would have issues with one aspect or another. It would eventually turn out to be similar to situation like it was say 200-500 years ago, when literature was heavily restricted in what they portrayed.

And truthfully i don't think it's the people whose ancestors had suffered from slavery who are complaining about these stuff. It's the people who try to uphold social morals forcefully that do it (who never had any connection to slavery aspect, even if we check their ancestory).

And like you said, those people don't really have issue with the concept of Slavery, they have issue with Rudy not reacting to it in a negative way. As according to them, other people should also react negatively to something if they had reacted negatively to it.

[Mad Pierrot]

Originally Posted by Huh...?

And like you said, those people don't really have issue with the concept of Slavery, they have issue with Rudy not reacting to it in a negative way. As according to them, other people should also react negatively to something if they had reacted negatively to it.

Do people expect Rudeus to go full Moses on the world? In the preview of the next episode, he is actually taking care of Juliet unlike what Naofumi did to Rapthalia in Shield Hero.

Even my favorite series from this year tackled slavery in an interesting fashion as Thorfinn actually appreciated being a slave cos it gave him a far better life than living an entire decade killing with Vikings just for the sake of revenge.

[Dextro]

Honestly, the author's comments on the subject don't really make it look better to my eyes:

Series author Rifujin na Magonote commented on slavery in his series on X (Twitter) on Sunday. Rifujin na Magonote wrote: "About Rudeus: He doesn't really have any feelings of hatred for slavery. He feels like, it's not necessarily the case that all slaves are universally unhappier as slaves than they were before becoming slaves. So while kidnapping is evil, he can't say with certainty that slavery itself is evil and doesn't want to impose his own sense of justice upon a culture he is unfamiliar with."

[src: ANN]

I don't know if the author agrees with this take, or if it's just another "flaw" in the MC's character. Hopefully it's the latter and the story can provide some interesting developments regarding this particular subject. But, given the history of the medium (japanese LN), I'm not very hopeful.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Dextro

Honestly, the author's comments on the subject don't really make it look better to my eyes:



[src: ANN]

I don't know if the author agrees with this take, or if it's just another "flaw" in the MC's character. Hopefully it's the latter and the story can provide some interesting developments regarding this particular subject. But, given the history of the medium (japanese LN), I'm not very hopeful.

Honestly I can at least believe that Rudy is dispassionate and clinical enough to anything that doesn't remotely effect him to not be too bothered by it.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by larethian

Some people are more sensitive to the matter due to their ancestry roots. And for many who hold negative feelings toward it,

As I said before, it is not about having slave roots (I would be surprised if there is someone alive nowadays that does not have a slave ancestor somewhere in their family tree), it is about said slavery being a factor in the viewers life. case in point, we know jews were slaves in the past, but that does not seem to be a factor in their daily lives nowadays, otherwise they would have bombed egypt by now.

I'd reckon that their main gripe is less with the depiction of slavery in a fantasy world itself but more with the depiction of Rudeus's level of concern towards it, given that he came from 'our' world.

For years I have read people bemoan male protagonistsa that are merely a stand in for us, the viewers, lacking personality and his own motivations. But here people are angry beause our protagonists is NOT a stand in for us.

In layman terms, if someone looks thru a video screen and say "Yikes" about the slavery thing, that can be seen as normal. But Rudues is on the other side of the screen, yeah, he has memories from a world where slavery appears only on books, but he has lived long enough to realize the wolrd where he lives has slavery as an eveyday thing. Heck, he has even fought against slavers, but he knows that he can't change the world just the same as if nowadays someone says "money is evil" people will label him as crazy and even those interested would say "how would the world work without money?" and if you say "I come from a world without money" then they will KNOW you are crazy.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

As I said before, it is not about having slave roots (I would be surprised if there is someone alive nowadays that does not have a slave ancestor somewhere in their family tree), it is about said slavery being a factor in the viewers life. case in point, we know jews were slaves in the past, but that does not seem to be a factor in their daily lives nowadays, otherwise they would have bombed egypt by now.

I would just say that while slavery is abolished in the modern world, effects of racial superiority and discrimination are still carried over towards some skin colours and ethnicities with slavery ancestory roots.

[scififan]

I guess people have strong impression on what happened. So, the discussion is not really strayed from the story.

Originally Posted by larethian

I would just say that while slavery is abolished in the modern world, effects of racial superiority and discrimination are still carried over towards some skin colours and ethnicities with slavery ancestory roots.

On paper, slavery system is abolished worldwide. The reality is harsher than textbooks want you to believe.
https://qz.com/africa/1333946/global...y-in-the-world

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

As I said before, it is not about having slave roots (I would be surprised if there is someone alive nowadays that does not have a slave ancestor somewhere in their family tree), it is about said slavery being a factor in the viewers life. case in point, we know jews were slaves in the past, but that does not seem to be a factor in their daily lives nowadays, otherwise they would have bombed egypt by now.

There are researchers who doubt Bible story. They compare the existing Egyptian records and found no trace. The hard labor to feed family is at will. Maybe you think this working condition is as severe as slavery. With or without such ancestor is not relevant, a person is shaped by his own current situation.

[alex_drian]

Originally Posted by Huh...?

I guess people forget that it was mentioned before on how some of the survivors of the Teleportation Incident ended up becoming Slaves (even Lilia technical had become a slave until Rudy rescued her), and how Paul and his group had to steal them to rescue the people as they couldn't buy them back. And the Fitoria region primarily had high Human population.

Also, it is not the Author who added stuff thinking it would be controversial. It's the people who are watching it have become too sensitive and are complaining about it.

I mean, people knew about mention of slaves in this series for nearly 10 years now, from the WN, LN and Manga source. But almost no reader had issue until now. Only when it got covered in Anime does people have issue.
Also, why is it that only when Japanese Anime is concerned, that people have issue with these type of topics, when plenty of Western shows had constantly showcased this topic on a regular basis.

On another note, here is Author's reply on the usage of Slavery concept in the plot.
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/int...lavery/.201346
Seriously, why do Author's have to explain stuff like this when there is no need.

Originally Posted by Mad Pierrot

Do people expect Rudeus to go full Moses on the world? In the preview of the next episode, he is actually taking care of Juliet unlike what Naofumi did to Rapthalia in Shield Hero.

Even my favorite series from this year tackled slavery in an interesting fashion as Thorfinn actually appreciated being a slave cos it gave him a far better life than living an entire decade killing with Vikings just for the sake of revenge.

I really hate this. No, no the take on slavery that is but a part of the worldbulding. I'm talking about the author needing to explain his take on it.

What is the purpose of being a writer if you can't write whatever you wants and stick to it despite everybody say. You don't like slavery in your japanese stories? Go read/watch something else because is my setting and I want to write about that and I'm gonna write about that. Makes you look lacking in balls.

I personally have my own takes in slavery but they not worth mention here but I can at least understand not particularly like some trope. I myself despise the "if you kill them you are the same as them" trope with every fiber of myself.

About Rudeus response, well, normal? he comes from our world where...the only slavery he have "contact" are textbooks? like worlds that say things like "slavery existed" so yeah, not so much feeling for it. I at least don't see reasonable expect for a 16 year old (with memories of a 40 year old hikkikomori) to react to actual slavery (in a world where is perfectly normal) as more that with an apatic "well, this is something".

People forget Rudeus is the MC, but he is not hero, is only a broken dude trying to live his second life as best he can while trying to heal his emotional injuries. He isn't the model human and is apatic at best to things that don't concern him or his family/friends. Also it was a suggestion of his beloved bro Fitz.

Seriously I'm more worried about Julie being near that brute Zanoba who accidentally ripped off the head of his baby little brother who Julie is named after. Hopefully child dwarfs are tough.

[Jaden]

Originally Posted by TheForsaken

Slavery associated with race is a very modern thing. In fact, race itself is a very modern concept. In the past, no one cares about race.
In Roman times, a Roman who was in debt could sell himself and his family into slavery, just like what happened to the girl in this episode.

I agree that's true for humans in the context of the Roman empire, and it makes sense, since there was a gradient of skin colors there that would've made racial discrimination rather weird.

But I do think that if we had a kingdom of humans over here, and a kingdom of lizard people over yonder, there would definitely be race wars, and the brand of slavery would mostly be imposed on the defeated side. Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with the lore, and the fight against demons was such a unifying force in the world that this doesn't happen.

[Mad Pierrot]

So the author had to make another tweet about how he does not approve slavery. It's like if Christopher Nolan had to say that he doesn't not approve of murder after Dark Knight due to controversy of Batman killing Harvey Dent.

[Dextro]

Originally Posted by Mad Pierrot

So the author had to make another tweet about how he does not approve slavery. It's like if Christopher Nolan had to say that he doesn't not approve of murder after Dark Knight due to controversy of Batman killing Harvey Dent.

That's a terrible take. That's not at all what happened. Imagine if Christopher Nolan had, after the release of The Dark Knight, gone public saying that we shouldn't judge people who kill other people because it's not our place to judge a different culture. That would have been comparable. Christopher Nolan never said that though, while Mushoku Tensei's author did.

In fact, his clarification is very welcomed in my eyes. He is specifically confirming one of my hypothesis: that he was specifically writing Rudeus as a flawed character that does engage in the sort of ethical relativism I mentioned above.

Anyway, for anyone wondering what the tweet said, here's the translation (courtesy of ANN):

I'd like to explain myself, as I don't condone slavery personally. However, it's true that I wrote Rudeus as someone who is not averse to slavery. Also, the original story is written with a kind of mild setting where it is accepted that, "Slavery is a normal thing in this world. It is what it is.” Because of this, there's no point in making excuses [for my actions].

So yes. Rudeus is, canonically, a character who is OK with slavery. (At least at this point in the story)