(L) Seirei Gensouki: Spirit Chronicles

[hihoperorin]

Thanks for the hard work, jagt.

So, what are your thoughts on this vol?

[nik45]

Originally Posted by jagt

The book didn't show if Takahisa saw the same second dream Erika saw after her first death, so I can't say for sure if he awakened or not. The fire pillar that Takahisa used at the end seemed to be similar or bigger in scale to Renji's endless force blizzard, but unlike Renji Takahisa didn't need a geek chant or seemed to need to gather his magic power for as long as him either, so I think it is safe to assume Takahisa is at the very least at Renji's level but still below Erika's. The book described the blackness of Takahisa's flames as his anger and hatred influencing his spirit arts but it didn't say a word about how that was possible.

About volume 25, the sentence in the preview of that volume “Then, I will correct the future that diverged”, obviously belonged to the voice that has been speaking to Miharu in dreams since volume 22. That woman is going to interfere or try to with Lina's plan in some way for sure. Aside from that right now I can't make any good guess about how things will play out.

I thought the woman is Lina. Cause so far she is the only one in the series who has power of seeing future.

[hihoperorin]

Yeah, that should most likely be Lina, if not for her alleged future sight then for her course of action in (most likely) summoning Rio and Sora to the castle, there just isn't any other being that should be interested in helping Haruto out, or has such easy access to Miharu's head (she sorta lives there), if that's not Lina then how did she even figure out who Miharu is.

[jagt]

Originally Posted by nik45

I thought the woman is Lina. Cause so far she is the only one in the series who has power of seeing future.

In my case I always thought that voice was a wise God different from Lina working towards reaching a future different from the one she foresaw. We already saw Lina speaking in Aisia's flashback of her creation and Ryuo's reincarnation in volume 21, and her way of speaking was completely different from that voice's. If Sora's words are true Rio has the same personality as Ryuo despite his two reincarnations and lack of memories, going by that Lina shouldn't have changed her personality after reincarnating either, but the voice's personality is completely oppossed to Miharu's. The voice was uncaring, unkind, arrogant, patronizing, manipulative, sarcastic, disrespectful, etc... basically every quality that doesn't belong to Miharu and that couldn't contrast anymore with the aptitude of someone that sacrificed her divinity and part of her lifespan to revive Ryuo via reincarnation in order to save the world from its future problems. It wouldn't make sense either for Lina to held her own reincarnation in all of the contemp and hate that the voice has for Miharu.

Also, we don't know the authorities of the other six wise Gods, we can't say Lina's future sight is the only way to see the future, they could have had a way to steal Lina's knowledge of the future or Lina could have leaked them somehow false knowledge about the future on purpose for having them colaborating with her plan unknowingly. Lina lost the ability to use her authority and to influence future at the moment of creating Aisia, so before that she should have set things in a way that reaching the future she envisioned wouldn't need any further intervention on her part, despite that the voice is trying to use Miharu to change the future, a clear proof of things not going her way.

Originally Posted by hihoperorin

Thanks for the hard work, jagt.

So, what are your thoughts on this vol?

Power through my disinterest in Takahisa was as hard as last time, despite that his parts were good as build up for future problems but the lack of actual advance in other fronts left me quite cold. I got from Fenris' and Elle's conversations that it is hard to tell who traumatized them more between Ryuo and Lina but that's it, Rio's chapter at the very least connected to Fenris deciding to attack Galarc's capital after listening to Elle's report, but Celia's chapter was compltely useless. Knowing that the voice haunting Miharu is plotting something using her body kind of can be called a harvest too, but in the end two thirds of the book ended up being preparations for things to come not before volume 26, not something bad per se but still dissatisfying when someone is waiting for the final clue to solve this arc's problem or even its climax.

Originally Posted by hihoperorin

Yeah, that should most likely be Lina, if not for her alleged future sight then for her course of action in (most likely) summoning Rio and Sora to the castle, there just isn't any other being that should be interested in helping Haruto out, or has such easy access to Miharu's head (she sorta lives there), if that's not Lina then how did she even figure out who Miharu is.

We still don't know to where Rio and Sora were teleported to and even if they were really teleported to Galarc's castle that doesn't has to mean it was made in order to help them, they could have been called there in order for them to die in that battle or so they lose their memories of everyone.

The spell that Miharu chanted at the end was also suspicious, that spell was the same that Celia uses to imitate the movements of a swordmaster, comparing the kanjis of those two chants it can be inferred that Miharu's spell is supposed to make the caster imitate the seventh wise God instead of a swordmaster, and that's the suspicious part. Why would the seventh wise God cast a spell that makes Miharu imitate them if they are the one possessing Miharu already? Why not be their usual self instead? That spell really makes one think someone will pretend to be the seventh wise God while inside Miharu's body, and the main suspect of that is the voice haunting Miharu that is shady as hell.

[Xan2341]

Originally Posted by jagt

The spell that Miharu chanted at the end was also suspicious, that spell was the same that Celia uses to imitate the movements of a swordmaster, comparing the kanjis of those two chants it can be inferred that Miharu's spell is supposed to make the caster imitate the seventh wise God instead of a swordmaster, and that's the suspicious part. Why would the seventh wise God cast a spell that makes Miharu imitate them if they are the one possessing Miharu already? Why not be their usual self instead? That spell really makes one think someone will pretend to be the seventh wise God while inside Miharu's body, and the main suspect of that is the voice haunting Miharu that is shady as hell.

I believe you may be overthinking it a bit. You mention you hesitate to take what the voice has been saying at face value and instead are attempting to look deeper, however you took the voice's intended 'use of miharu's body' literally. This possession type magic most likely will allow Miharu possibly to bend the rules, with her acting like Lina (but not Lina).

That speculation aside, its been pretty evident that Lina is the only other party that has a vested interest in Rio and the girls as she is planning all this using her future sight. Not to mention what Elle said at the end indicating Rio's teleportation and probably whats going on with Miharu are due to Lina's actions. If the voice was another wise god. Takahisa going to Proxia would be a welcome thing and Reiss coming in to crush Rio's group as well. Seeing as the voice is attempting to guide Miharu, Celia and Rio, its most likely Lina attempting to get the correct outcome she wants without running too foul of the rules herself. Or whatever penalty she gets for disclosing the future directly.

[hihoperorin]

Originally Posted by jagt

In my case I always thought that voice was a wise God different from Lina working towards reaching a future different from the one she foresaw. We already saw Lina speaking in Aisia's flashback of her creation and Ryuo's reincarnation in volume 21, and her way of speaking was completely different from that voice's. If Sora's words are true Rio has the same personality as Ryuo despite his two reincarnations and lack of memories, going by that Lina shouldn't have changed her personality after reincarnating either, but the voice's personality is completely oppossed to Miharu's. The voice was uncaring, unkind, arrogant, patronizing, manipulative, sarcastic, disrespectful, etc... basically every quality that doesn't belong to Miharu and that couldn't contrast anymore with the aptitude of someone that sacrificed her divinity and part of her lifespan to revive Ryuo via reincarnation in order to save the world from its future problems. It wouldn't make sense either for Lina to held her own reincarnation in all of the contemp and hate that the voice has for Miharu.

Also, we don't know the authorities of the other six wise Gods, we can't say Lina's future sight is the only way to see the future, they could have had a way to steal Lina's knowledge of the future or Lina could have leaked them somehow false knowledge about the future on purpose for having them colaborating with her plan unknowingly. Lina lost the ability to use her authority and to influence future at the moment of creating Aisia, so before that she should have set things in a way that reaching the future she envisioned wouldn't need any further intervention on her part, despite that the voice is trying to use Miharu to change the future, a clear proof of things not going her way.

Power through my disinterest in Takahisa was as hard as last time, despite that his parts were good as build up for future problems but the lack of actual advance in other fronts left me quite cold. I got from Fenris' and Elle's conversations that it is hard to tell who traumatized them more between Ryuo and Lina but that's it, Rio's chapter at the very least connected to Fenris deciding to attack Galarc's capital after listening to Elle's report, but Celia's chapter was compltely useless. Knowing that the voice haunting Miharu is plotting something using her body kind of can be called a harvest too, but in the end two thirds of the book ended up being preparations for things to come not before volume 26, not something bad per se but still dissatisfying when someone is waiting for the final clue to solve this arc's problem or even its climax.



We still don't know to where Rio and Sora were teleported to and even if they were really teleported to Galarc's castle that doesn't has to mean it was made in order to help them, they could have been called there in order for them to die in that battle or so they lose their memories of everyone.

The spell that Miharu chanted at the end was also suspicious, that spell was the same that Celia uses to imitate the movements of a swordmaster, comparing the kanjis of those two chants it can be inferred that Miharu's spell is supposed to make the caster imitate the seventh wise God instead of a swordmaster, and that's the suspicious part. Why would the seventh wise God cast a spell that makes Miharu imitate them if they are the one possessing Miharu already? Why not be their usual self instead? That spell really makes one think someone will pretend to be the seventh wise God while inside Miharu's body, and the main suspect of that is the voice haunting Miharu that is shady as hell.

Hmm, I didn't read the raws so I didn't know, but, if the voice has a different manner of speaking from Lina then there is a good chance she's someone else (or Kitayama trolling us lol.) Despite Lina's thoughts still being a mystery, I agree that she should have had good intentions in reincarnating Ryuuou. But then again, she's a wise god. originally those seven thought they knew better than the being that created theme and gave them their very wisdom and brains, not only that, they also thought that it would be a good idea to spend their time trying to open a hole in time-space cuz they don't wanna do their job anymore, heck the dragon king and the 6 great spirits were doing a much better job of guiding mortals when it wasn't even their job. Basically wise gods are self-absorbed manchildren with zero self awareness.

Sure, Lina defected later and got herself sealed, but her included, none of them thought to consult or report on what they were doing to the other demi gods, nor did they think about the consequences of their actions on mortals or the world. So tbh, I always thought all seven are probably jerks, Lina may be a good jerk, but a jerk nonetheless, although she may have changed while on seal. But when you put it like that, it does make no sense how harsh she is on Miharu, if not for her noble-esque personality that you suppose she has then for how stupid she came out. She just told Miharu to make a bad choice and she makes expectations as if Miharu saw the future with her, then she calls her a foolish girl, bruh, need I remind you that you wise gods started this mess in the first place, try as Miharu can, she can never get to your level of foolishness, Lina dear.

The personality part should be something Rio specific cuz Lina's track record doesn't look Miharu like, so from the beginning they are different people, I like to think of it as the dragon king's soul being too strong he always ends up with the same personality.

About the possibility of the voice summoning Rio to get rid of his memories of the girls or get him killed. The first shouldn't be because why get rid of his memories when you can get rid of the very people he wants to protect, without Rio there the girls would die, that would put a more assuring end to him than having him forget them - although that could create a being that makes the demons and wise gods seem gentle and kind -, especially if the schemer is a wise god, they can circumvent the rules and for the six wise, Ryuuou = Lina, what if she has a plot to make him remember again. Furthermore, I'm not sure how the rules apply to the golems or to a battle with one's life at stake.

The second possibility, I discarded because even Reiss with his golems didn't dare march on Gartulk with Rio there, in the first place, you wouldn't think golems can take down the dragon king, no matter how far from his prime he is.

Lastly, I'd say the biggest chapter of this vol was the afterword. Kitayama said that he was trying to show the effects of Rio disappearance on the characters, but he only did that for Takahisa, focusing on him so much, the rest was all blatant filler, aside from the first conversation where they pulled records and Lise spoke about her and Latifa reincarnation (vol21) and Miharu Aki heart to heart (vol 22). Both vol 22 and 23, I was waiting for deep talks between the girls, anything was fine as long it gave us some insight into the girls personalities and their thoughts on anything, their pov on things basically, instead we got them talking about scones and milk, the only girls wise (Miharu/Sastuki's opinion on Takahisa) relatively deep convos are the ones that focus on Takahisa.

The good news imo is that the entire afterword sounded like the fanbase in Japan is starting to lose interest over having to follow Takahisa for so long that Kitayama had to come out to appease the readers and assure them that he gets it. When he said he usually writes arcs in 10 vols but who knows if that trend will continue, I thought he had wanted at first to give us 8 vols of Takahisa then 2 of Rio solving problems and by vol 30 the rules would break. But since the fans reception was exceptionally bad (to the point Riv has to tell us not to hate Takahisa,) Kitayama is cutting the arc to 5 vols, so it probably ends in 25 or 26. Heck, Kitayama himself had to say it in the afterword "The wait is over, I'm giving you what you all wanted next vol." So, I'm copeful that rules will break on either vol 25 or 26 and that vol 25 will be a Rio centered one big battle. To double down on the copium, 26 may be a tea party with Rio in it.

[Xan2341]

Originally Posted by hihoperorin

Lastly, I'd say the biggest chapter of this vol was the afterword. Kitayama said that he was trying to show the effects of Rio disappearance on the characters, but he only did that for Takahisa, focusing on him so much, the rest was all blatant filler, aside from the first conversation where they pulled records and Lise spoke about her and Latifa reincarnation (vol21) and Miharu Aki heart to heart (vol 22). Both vol 22 and 23, I was waiting for deep talks between the girls, anything was fine as long it gave us some insight into the girls personalities and their thoughts on anything, their pov on things basically, instead we got them talking about scones and milk, the only girls wise (Miharu/Sastuki's opinion on Takahisa) relatively deep convos are the ones that focus on Takahisa.

The good news imo is that the entire afterword sounded like the fanbase in Japan is starting to lose interest over having to follow Takahisa for so long that Kitayama had to come out to appease the readers and assure them that he gets it. When he said he usually writes arcs in 10 vols but who knows if that trend will continue, I thought he had wanted at first to give us 8 vols of Takahisa then 2 of Rio solving problems and by vol 30 the rules would break. But since the fans reception was exceptionally bad (to the point Riv has to tell us not to hate Takahisa,) Kitayama is cutting the arc to 5 vols, so it probably ends in 25 or 26. Heck, Kitayama himself had to say it in the afterword "The wait is over, I'm giving you what you all wanted next vol." So, I'm copeful that rules will break on either vol 25 or 26 and that vol 25 will be a Rio centered one big battle. To double down on the copium, 26 may be a tea party with Rio in it.

I got the same feeling too with the different tone and length of the afterward section this volume. Someone had a talk with the author. Either editor or Publisher probably after reviewing polling or some sample data started to see shifts in the reader base. Kitayama usually keeps his afterwards brief, maybe a paragraph or two with some insights into upcoming media. This time however he outlined how he writes, and whats going on currently in the series and that he may change the outline up going forward.

I do wonder how this impacts volumes 25 and 26. We've honestly had zero development with Rio. He has been off page to make room for Takahisa's growth and focus. Rio has been kicking stones looking for clues but outside of lore, he has made zero progress on rules and Celia has spent zero time on research as well to assist him. Volume 25/26 are probably going to speed run, to what Kitayama was probably planning out over 5 volumes.

[jagt]

Originally Posted by Xan2341

I believe you may be overthinking it a bit. You mention you hesitate to take what the voice has been saying at face value and instead are attempting to look deeper, however you took the voice's intended 'use of miharu's body' literally. This possession type magic most likely will allow Miharu possibly to bend the rules, with her acting like Lina (but not Lina).

That speculation aside, its been pretty evident that Lina is the only other party that has a vested interest in Rio and the girls as she is planning all this using her future sight. Not to mention what Elle said at the end indicating Rio's teleportation and probably whats going on with Miharu are due to Lina's actions. If the voice was another wise god. Takahisa going to Proxia would be a welcome thing and Reiss coming in to crush Rio's group as well. Seeing as the voice is attempting to guide Miharu, Celia and Rio, its most likely Lina attempting to get the correct outcome she wants without running too foul of the rules herself. Or whatever penalty she gets for disclosing the future directly.

Saying to not trust in the voice and saying everything she says is a lie are different things. The damn thing spent several minutes talking to Miharu in the same capcious way a con artist does to get her to do as she says, told her she would censor her memories of their talks to her liking and ended it saying she would take control of her body in the future, exactly one hundred pages later Miharu was possesed by unknown entity that casted an spell whose chant seems to indicate they will be pretending to be the seventh wise God for the duration of their stay in Miharu's body. How can you not be on your guard after such a succession of fishy things related to that voice.

Besides, Lina isn't the only person with bested interest in regards to Rio and the girls, Reis has a clear wish to erase Rio's group and has already made an attempt of making Rio run out of masks by forcing him to fight defensive battles in the form of summonning Celia to that fortress, lastly that voice is clearly trying to alter the future too. The groups trying to affect Rio and his surroundings went that easily from one to three and to that three we have to add confirmed for the time being. Elle's word's aren't a proof of anything either, she hasn't a way to know with certainty who is the caster of spell, she is just so thraumatized Lina she blames on her by default every twist of things she doesn't like. How can you affirm Takahisa's leave and Reis' attack are welcome things for the wise Gods without even the slightest idea about what they want to achieve and how? The voice saw Takahisa's presence at Galarc's castle as a way to push the future away from the path Lina set for it one thousand years ago, for that same reason if Reis' attack is a sign of things not advancing how they wish they would do it wouldn't be a welcome thing. The voice also didn't make any attempt to guide Rio and Celia toward anything. Rio hadn't heard a single voice in his head awake or asleep and is still to see who teleported him and to where. Celia not only listened to a voice different from the one that talked to Miharu but has also received no order or hint towards doing a concrete thing by the voice that spoke to her. In other words, the only one trying to make changes to things is the voice that began to speak to Miharu in volume 22 and a comparation with the only scene where Lina participated until now makes it visible to the eye that she isn't Lina.

Originally Posted by hihoperorin

Hmm, I didn't read the raws so I didn't know, but, if the voice has a different manner of speaking from Lina then there is a good chance she's someone else (or Kitayama trolling us lol.) Despite Lina's thoughts still being a mystery, I agree that she should have had good intentions in reincarnating Ryuuou. But then again, she's a wise god. originally those seven thought they knew better than the being that created theme and gave them their very wisdom and brains, not only that, they also thought that it would be a good idea to spend their time trying to open a hole in time-space cuz they don't wanna do their job anymore, heck the dragon king and the 6 great spirits were doing a much better job of guiding mortals when it wasn't even their job. Basically wise gods are self-absorbed manchildren with zero self awareness.

Sure, Lina defected later and got herself sealed, but her included, none of them thought to consult or report on what they were doing to the other demi gods, nor did they think about the consequences of their actions on mortals or the world. So tbh, I always thought all seven are probably jerks, Lina may be a good jerk, but a jerk nonetheless, although she may have changed while on seal. But when you put it like that, it does make no sense how harsh she is on Miharu, if not for her noble-esque personality that you suppose she has then for how stupid she came out. She just told Miharu to make a bad choice and she makes expectations as if Miharu saw the future with her, then she calls her a foolish girl, bruh, need I remind you that you wise gods started this mess in the first place, try as Miharu can, she can never get to your level of foolishness, Lina dear.

The personality part should be something Rio specific cuz Lina's track record doesn't look Miharu like, so from the beginning they are different people, I like to think of it as the dragon king's soul being too strong he always ends up with the same personality.

About the possibility of the voice summoning Rio to get rid of his memories of the girls or get him killed. The first shouldn't be because why get rid of his memories when you can get rid of the very people he wants to protect, without Rio there the girls would die, that would put a more assuring end to him than having him forget them - although that could create a being that makes the demons and wise gods seem gentle and kind -, especially if the schemer is a wise god, they can circumvent the rules and for the six wise, Ryuuou = Lina, what if she has a plot to make him remember again. Furthermore, I'm not sure how the rules apply to the golems or to a battle with one's life at stake.

The second possibility, I discarded because even Reiss with his golems didn't dare march on Gartulk with Rio there, in the first place, you wouldn't think golems can take down the dragon king, no matter how far from his prime he is.

Lastly, I'd say the biggest chapter of this vol was the afterword. Kitayama said that he was trying to show the effects of Rio disappearance on the characters, but he only did that for Takahisa, focusing on him so much, the rest was all blatant filler, aside from the first conversation where they pulled records and Lise spoke about her and Latifa reincarnation (vol21) and Miharu Aki heart to heart (vol 22). Both vol 22 and 23, I was waiting for deep talks between the girls, anything was fine as long it gave us some insight into the girls personalities and their thoughts on anything, their pov on things basically, instead we got them talking about scones and milk, the only girls wise (Miharu/Sastuki's opinion on Takahisa) relatively deep convos are the ones that focus on Takahisa.

The good news imo is that the entire afterword sounded like the fanbase in Japan is starting to lose interest over having to follow Takahisa for so long that Kitayama had to come out to appease the readers and assure them that he gets it. When he said he usually writes arcs in 10 vols but who knows if that trend will continue, I thought he had wanted at first to give us 8 vols of Takahisa then 2 of Rio solving problems and by vol 30 the rules would break. But since the fans reception was exceptionally bad (to the point Riv has to tell us not to hate Takahisa,) Kitayama is cutting the arc to 5 vols, so it probably ends in 25 or 26. Heck, Kitayama himself had to say it in the afterword "The wait is over, I'm giving you what you all wanted next vol." So, I'm copeful that rules will break on either vol 25 or 26 and that vol 25 will be a Rio centered one big battle. To double down on the copium, 26 may be a tea party with Rio in it.

You didn't forget we were barely told a word about how the transcendentals used to be or do things in the past right? That there isn't any single page detailing past happenings previous to Aisia's birth right? The part about the wise Gods believing themselves better than God wasn't written anywhere, it seems it was rather the opposite, that they decided to search for God becuase they gave up rebuilding with just their own efforts the paradise the world used to be in the past. We weren't told either a word about what Ryuo and the six great spirits did to guide anyone, but it seems it was close to nothing. The six great spirits seem to have spent their time doing nothing in the wilderness while their worshippers and the rest of the spirits of the world suffered worldwide persecution at the hands of humanity. Ryuo seems to be the one that left all religions disappear from the Yagumo region and going by Sora's words he didn't involve himself with other people until the divine war.

If it is about not consulting and reporting, that seems to be common to all of the transcendentals, Aisia's story of the past really gave the impression that the transcendentals cut all contact with the others after the establishment of the rules. You said the wise Gods didn't think about the consequences but that isn't right either, going by Aisia's story Lina tried to stop the research the moment she knew there would be consequences and there wasn't a single word about the research causing any harm to anyone before future sight warmer Lina something bad would happen if they continued, and despite not heeding Lina's warning the six wise Gods still took precautions, they performed their experiment further away that the furthest confines of the Stralh region several dozens of kilometers underground and away from human settlements, in other words, they got ready to bury the hole between dimensions in case something bad came out of it and took care to not get others involved, their precautions were insufficient but they took them. To be even more fairer with them opening a world between dimensions isn't dangerous per se unless you open the damn gates of hell.

You talk about Lina's track record, but what is that track record? We know Lina tried to stop the experiment the moment she knew it was dangerous, that she helped Ryuo save the Yagumo region, that she pushed herself to the verge of death to put an end to the divine war alongside Ryuo, that while in that quasi-death state of hers she sacrificed her divinity and lifespan to revive Ryuo via reincarnation magic so he could save the world again in the future. What of all of this merits being called jerk? What it is so unlike Miharu here? Lina gave herself unneeded responsibilities the same way that Miharu feels needlessly responsible for what Takahisa's mess turned into, she blames herself for Rio having need to kill in order to save her from the slave dealer, for goodness sake she even blamed herself for not having handled Takahisa in a better way when he kidnapped her. How Lina sacrificed herself so at the end of the divine war also doesn't sound at all like the Miharu that is always prioritizing others over herself in the present.

There is a difference between everyone diying before or after Rio loses his memories. If Rio loses his memories of everyone before their deaths he would lose his reason to fight, a in case you can't just kill the guy then make it so he doesn't get in the way kind of scenario, and with Rio out of the picture killing eveyone else would be easy, but if everyone dies before Rio loses his memories he wouldn't be in danger of losing his memories while protecting them anymore and would instead turn into an unchained angry avenger that would never again be in the disadvantage of having to fight a defensive batlle. The batlle being against golems shouldn't make a difference either, as long as Reis commands them it would be a battle between Rio and him, something that would consume masks and make Rio lose his memories eventually if dragget out.

Both Fenris and Elle clearly seemed convinced they could kill Rio and Sora with the help of their golems, and when Fenris refused he wasn't scared of losing either but of the damage Rio's authority could cause during the battle, but outside the dungeon Reis wouldn't fear anhilation damaging it, and Rio wouldn't just be under the disadvantage of being the defending side, there is the chance of the voice possessing Miharu and backstabbing the unaware Rio or she doing something that forces Rio to show a fatal opening.

The japanese fanbase isn't getting any tired of anything either, this book took the number 1 in the daily, weekly and monthly rankings of bookwalker and all of the usual places just like the previous one also did, and just like previous times it seems it will also keep the number 1 of the monthly rankings until the sales of the first day stop counting for the position.

I also think you are misunderstanding a few things in that afterword, the author said he wrote so much about Takahisa because he was the one who would be the most impacted by forgetting Rio and because he thought it was the perfect chance for it that he wouldn't have another of again. Yuri didn't say he wrote arcs in ten vols, what he said was that the story has its most important turning points in 10 volumes, in other words the end of the evening party where Rio finally abandons his lonely avenger plan and volume 20 with the activation of the rules, but it was never said anywhere that that meant he had planned to make the rules arc last ten volumes, becuase Yuri also said that the development that began in volume 21 reached its turning point in volume 24 and now the conclusion will come(the the wait is over you mentioned), mentioning the 10 volumes interval can just mean that whatever big event different from the rule breakship Yuri could have planned for volume 30 will happen sooner or later in the future, or that after volume 30 those turning points while come in different intervals, or that unlike the usual 10 volumes this time he just needed 5 to reach that turning point.

[hihoperorin]

Originally Posted by jagt

You didn't forget we were barely told a word about how the transcendentals used to be or do things in the past right? That there isn't any single page detailing past happenings previous to Aisia's birth right? The part about the wise Gods believing themselves better than God wasn't written anywhere, it seems it was rather the opposite, that they decided to search for God becuase they gave up rebuilding with just their own efforts the paradise the world used to be in the past. We weren't told either a word about what Ryuo and the six great spirits did to guide anyone, but it seems it was close to nothing. The six great spirits seem to have spent their time doing nothing in the wilderness while their worshippers and the rest of the spirits of the world suffered worldwide persecution at the hands of humanity. Ryuo seems to be the one that left all religions disappear from the Yagumo region and going by Sora's words he didn't involve himself with other people until the divine war.

Hahaha, where do I start here. First the seven wise. Nowhere did I say they believed themselves better than their god. See their god set the rules for the demi gods not to meddle too much then left that world, whatever intentions he had, it wasn't the seven wise gods place to interfere in that. Them trying to bring him back is like telling him, their god, that he was wrong to leave and they will correct his mistake.

Last time I checked Ryuuou founded a country in yagumo and the six great spirits were guiding the spirit people, enough for the spirit people to still consider them their gods a thousand years later. Funny how you try to defend the seven wise who's literal job was to guide people, not to make a paradise or what not, yet come so strongly on the dragon king and six spirits whereas interacting with people isn't even their responsibility, also the six spirits didn't just watch as the spirits and spirit people were being enslaved by the humans, that was mentioned nowhere in the books and iirc the enslavement of spirits was something the 6 wise propagated in the war after they sealed the great spirits, because spirits are a nice energy source, apparently. Meanwhile, the spirit folk treatment was something that started after the great war, meaning after the great spirits were sealed. Why you simping to the 7 wise bro.

If it is about not consulting and reporting, that seems to be common to all of the transcendentals, Aisia's story of the past really gave the impression that the transcendentals cut all contact with the others after the establishment of the rules. You said the wise Gods didn't think about the consequences but that isn't right either, going by Aisia's story Lina tried to stop the research the moment she knew there would be consequences and there wasn't a single word about the research causing any harm to anyone before future sight warmer Lina something bad would happen if they continued, and despite not heeding Lina's warning the six wise Gods still took precautions, they performed their experiment further away that the furthest confines of the Stralh region several dozens of kilometers underground and away from human settlements, in other words, they got ready to bury the hole between dimensions in case something bad came out of it and took care to not get others involved, their precautions were insufficient but they took them. To be even more fairer with them opening a world between dimensions isn't dangerous per se unless you open the damn gates of hell.

I'm not saying they should report everything they do, the other demi gods were not busy conducting world ending experiments buddy. Again you defend the 7 wise illogically. They went against their god's orders, they neglected their own duties, they carried secret experiments to connect to different worlds they had no idea about, what dangers, what beings lay there, nope nothing, no idea, and you're telling me their precaution was to choose somewhere by the seaside to do it. I'm utterly interested, what moment made you a seven wise simp?

You talk about Lina's track record, but what is that track record? We know Lina tried to stop the experiment the moment she knew it was dangerous, that she helped Ryuo save the Yagumo region, that she pushed herself to the verge of death to put an end to the divine war alongside Ryuo, that while in that quasi-death state of hers she sacrificed her divinity and lifespan to revive Ryuo via reincarnation magic so he could save the world again in the future. What of all of this merits being called jerk? What it is so unlike Miharu here? Lina gave herself unneeded responsibilities the same way that Miharu feels needlessly responsible for what Takahisa's mess turned into, she blames herself for Rio having need to kill in order to save her from the slave dealer, for goodness sake she even blamed herself for not having handled Takahisa in a better way when he kidnapped her. How Lina sacrificed herself so at the end of the divine war also doesn't sound at all like the Miharu that is always prioritizing others over herself in the present.

Ok, this one rightfully goes to you, you're right, I came too strongly against Lina. She's probably a really good person.

There is a difference between everyone diying before or after Rio loses his memories. If Rio loses his memories of everyone before their deaths he would lose his reason to fight, a in case you can't just kill the guy then make it so he doesn't get in the way kind of scenario, and with Rio out of the picture killing eveyone else would be easy, but if everyone dies before Rio loses his memories he wouldn't be in danger of losing his memories while protecting them anymore and would instead turn into an unchained angry avenger that would never again be in the disadvantage of having to fight a defensive batlle. The batlle being against golems shouldn't make a difference either, as long as Reis commands them it would be a battle between Rio and him, something that would consume masks and make Rio lose his memories eventually if dragget out.

If I was Rio about to lose my memories of the girls due to the rules, you gonna be damn sure the entire world will be engulfed in silver as I assimilate to maximum% with Aishia. If I'm going down memory wise then all threats are going down existence wise. ofc he prolly can't kill all, but if I was Reiss, I wouldn't want to pay such Russian roulette.

I'm not sure I follow about avenger Rio. Defensive battle or not doesn't matter, the moment he attacks anyone with his own personal agenda, he'll forget all about what he was trying to do and who he was trying to avenge. Fenris himself is trying to do just that, kill the girls while Rio is away. So if I wanted to rid me of Rio, I'd kill the girls, dude is sure to rage so hard he attacks me in a fit of wrath, and boom he has no idea what he was doing, then I'd tell him I was his father and- anyway jokes aside.

Hmm, but in the end, avenger Rio could also go silver brrr and the same situation would happen. Honestly, the solution should be not to drive such a being to that level of desperation, but if he's gonna kill me either way, I'd rather deal with an agitated him than a calm him.

Both Fenris and Elle clearly seemed convinced they could kill Rio and Sora with the help of their golems, and when Fenris refused he wasn't scared of losing either but of the damage Rio's authority could cause during the battle, but outside the dungeon Reis wouldn't fear anhilation damaging it, and Rio wouldn't just be under the disadvantage of being the defending side, there is the chance of the voice possessing Miharu and backstabbing the unaware Rio or she doing something that forces Rio to show a fatal opening.

No. They were convinced they could do it inside the dungeon. Fernis himself said that it's lucky that Rio is away from Gartulk and his forces are dispersed.

The japanese fanbase isn't getting any tired of anything either, this book took the number 1 in the daily, weekly and monthly rankings of bookwalker and all of the usual places just like the previous one also did, and just like previous times it seems it will also keep the number 1 of the monthly rankings until the sales of the first day stop counting for the position.

You know most non Japanese readers I saw were very pissed at vols 22 23, plot twist, none of them dropped the novel.

First, this isn't some 5 vols novel, it's a long running series with over 20 vols. Normally if you liked and followed for 20 vols, you wouldn't drop because you didn't fancy the last 2 vols. Second, this novel peaked in hype at vol 20 and 21, that alone could drive it for a while. So, I'm not exactly sure what point you try to make when you say it took first place, you by no means deny my point, people could have very low expectations but still buy the latest vol of their - favorite for 20 vols - novel praying that the arc they hate ends and the arc they like, which should be starting at any time, starts already, doesn't mean they're loving it, lol. Basically, 2 vols is just too short an observation span for any major shift in fan sentiments. Especially since Kitayama said that development and a turning point are coming in vol 25. Last 3 vols or so, author and publisher always laying the bait and enticement to get people to buy the vol, I think you're just ignoring reality. But hey, there is always the possibility that you're right and I'm wrong.

I also think you are misunderstanding a few things in that afterword, the author said he wrote so much about Takahisa because he was the one who would be the most impacted by forgetting Rio and because he thought it was the perfect chance for it that he wouldn't have another of again.

Didn't Kitayama say that he wanted to write about the characters impacted by Rio not existing? And that, duh, the one most affected was Takahisa, so he wanted to take the chance to write about him most? Well he only wrote about Takahisa. He didn't write about nobody else, just Takahisa. Do correct me if the afterword didn't say that.

Yuri didn't say he wrote arcs in ten vols, what he said was that the story has its most important turning points in 10 volumes, in other words the end of the evening party where Rio finally abandons his lonely avenger plan and volume 20 with the activation of the rules, but it was never said anywhere that that meant he had planned to make the rules arc last ten volumes, becuase Yuri also said that the development that began in volume 21 reached its turning point in volume 24 and now the conclusion will come(the the wait is over you mentioned), mentioning the 10 volumes interval can just mean that whatever big event different from the rule breakship Yuri could have planned for volume 30 will happen sooner or later in the future, or that after volume 30 those turning points while come in different intervals, or that unlike the usual 10 volumes this time he just needed 5 to reach that turning point.

Uhh, bruh, a turning point every 10 vols means an arc every 10 vols. For example, from vol 10 up to vol 20 are undeniably, absolutely, without a shred of doubt, the black knight arc. It was such a period in Rio's life. the 4 vols thing is at most the current running plot, those are mini arcs. Come on jagt-kun, you're better than this. Ahh, when you say arc, you mean story arc, huh. Understandable, but when I say arc I mean one way of classifying a number (10 here) of volumes in one bundle.

Regarding the rules arc thing. Well, he said that a turning point is every 10 vols, and vol 20 had the turning point of the rules, what would vol 30 have then? Do you expect the rules to be broken by vol 84 or something? But yeah objectively speaking, this is just my opinion against yours. The way I interpreted Kitayama's words is that he wanted rules arc to be vol 20 to 30, but gave up on that because fans aren't happy and shortened it to 5 vols. No I didn't misunderstand him, I used interpretation bro. I'll also add that I interpreted the 10 vols turning points to be equal to eras in Rio's life; 1 -> 10 = orphan/nomad Rio. 10 -> 20 = black knight/noble Rio. 20 -> ? = human-transcendental Rio.

[jagt]

Hahaha, where do I start here. First the seven wise. Nowhere did I say they believed themselves better than their god. See their god set the rules for the demi gods not to meddle too much then left that world, whatever intentions he had, it wasn't the seven wise gods place to interfere in that. Them trying to bring him back is like telling him, their god, that he was wrong to leave and they will correct his mistake.

Last time I checked Ryuuou founded a country in yagumo and the six great spirits were guiding the spirit people, enough for the spirit people to still consider them their gods a thousand years later. Funny how you try to defend the seven wise who's literal job was to guide people, not to make a paradise or what not, yet come so strongly on the dragon king and six spirits whereas interacting with people isn't even their responsibility, also the six spirits didn't just watch as the spirits and spirit people were being enslaved by the humans, that was mentioned nowhere in the books and iirc the enslavement of spirits was something the 6 wise propagated in the war after they sealed the great spirits, because spirits are a nice energy source, apparently. Meanwhile, the spirit folk treatment was something that started after the great war, meaning after the great spirits were sealed. Why you simping to the 7 wise bro.

This isn't about simping anyone or going hard on whoever, it's a matter of trying to look as objectively as possible using only the confirmed facts at how the transcendentals used to be. Meanwhile you are making up meanings for the wise God's actions by yourself while giving the rest a credit they don't really seem to deserve.

Sora described Ryuo as a hermit whose only connection to another human was she herself, the legend about him founding a country is also something she made up and that got distorted by one thousand years of oral tradition afterwards, Ryuo could have made like Fenris and seal his own powers so the rules wouldn't affect him during the divine war, but claiming he did better guiding mortals than the six wise Gods with just those few years of work is a bit of a stretch, even more when it can also be said that not keeping an eye in the rest of the transcendentals so they don't do anything that endangers the world is his failure as the world guardian. About the six great spirits, there isn't a single word anywhere about them ever coming out of the wilderness, giving any guidance or help to anyone or about that being the reason why they were whorshipped, there isn't also a single word anywhere about the slavement of spirits being propagated by the six wise Gods or the spirit folks' persecution starting just after war, its the opposite, the spirits and the spirit folk left the Stralh and Yagumo regions due to the human persecution before the war and that's precisely why by the time the war started they were already in the wilderness, you mixed up the timeline for some thing there. The war came after the exodus and not otherwise. Also the spirit enslavement describbed by the spirit folk's registers if I don't remember wrong was for the sake of forcing the spirits to fight, there couldn't be a dead end deader than trying to use as an energy source a creature that needs the magic power it is provided to keep its existence and be able to keep fighting on.

I'm not saying they should report everything they do, the other demi gods were not busy conducting world ending experiments buddy. Again you defend the 7 wise illogically. They went against their god's orders, they neglected their own duties, they carried secret experiments to connect to different worlds they had no idea about, what dangers, what beings lay there, nope nothing, no idea, and you're telling me their precaution was to choose somewhere by the seaside to do it. I'm utterly interested, what moment made you a seven wise simp?

You are also making up the part about the wise Gods going against God's orders, we don't know what orders they were given so of course we can't know what breaks them or not, besides if we are going to criticize going against God's orders we have to criticize the things that lessen the rules' effects too and even more than that Ryuo's and Lina's plan to break them. You say they neglected their duty but we have no basis to say that becuase we simply don't know what they did or not before they started their experiment. Besides I'm not saying either what the six wise Gods did wasn't wrong, I just say they didn't do it completely thoughtlessly.

If I was Rio about to lose my memories of the girls due to the rules, you gonna be damn sure the entire world will be engulfed in silver as I assimilate to maximum% with Aishia. If I'm going down memory wise then all threats are going down existence wise. ofc he prolly can't kill all, but if I was Reiss, I wouldn't want to pay such Russian roulette.

I'm not sure I follow about avenger Rio. Defensive battle or not doesn't matter, the moment he attacks anyone with his own personal agenda, he'll forget all about what he was trying to do and who he was trying to avenge. Fenris himself is trying to do just that, kill the girls while Rio is away. So if I wanted to rid me of Rio, I'd kill the girls, dude is sure to rage so hard he attacks me in a fit of wrath, and boom he has no idea what he was doing, then I'd tell him I was his father and- anyway jokes aside.

Hmm, but in the end, avenger Rio could also go silver brrr and the same situation would happen. Honestly, the solution should be not to drive such a being to that level of desperation, but if he's gonna kill me either way, I'd rather deal with an agitated him than a calm him.

If Reis survided with Ryuo as his opponent during the divine war then there must be a way to survive anhilation, different from Ryuo Rio doesn't have a full mastery of his authority either, the part about Rio forgetting or not about dead people if he fights for revenge wasn't explained anywhere so let's forget this concrete point since it would just be both of us making assumptions.

Didn't Kitayama say that he wanted to write about the characters impacted by Rio not existing? And that, duh, the one most affected was Takahisa, so he wanted to take the chance to write about him most? Well he only wrote about Takahisa. He didn't write about nobody else, just Takahisa. Do correct me if the afterword didn't say that.

Now about the afterword of the book, if you cut unneeded parts for the topic at hand like the greeting and the drama cd promo it ends like this:

What do you think about volume 24? If you look back at volumes 10 and 20 you would understand that Seirei Gensouki is a story whose kishoutenketsu/(introduction, development, turn and conclusion) happen in units of ten volumes. Putting aside if the story will continue to unfold at that pace, the story of the kishoutenketsu that began in volume 21 reached its development in volume 24. Then as the direct preparation for the turn I set a bomb with strong pulling power in the last epilogue. It is already mentioned in the future notice at the end of the book but volume 25's subtitle is "Our hero". I don't know what to say but I made you wait for really long right? I would be happy if you could wait for volume 25 while guessing to who "Our hero" refers to.

Anyway, from volume 21 to 24, in order to scatter clues about future stories, I wrote things I couldn't write unless Rio was absent. Then, the one who was the most influenced by Rio's absence was "That fellow", or rather "He". So, I thought this or that about how "He" would naturally move in Rio's absence. The result was volume 24, "He" changed his current valors, or rather, his morality. As the result of putting together thoughts like "How much it would take for a person to change the sense of valors they obstinately cling to?"" They wouldn't change so easily right?" I think it turned into a development that really reflected the subtite "The darkness' holy fire". I thought "He" wouldn't become the center of attention again so I moved my pen boldly now that I had the chance. In truth, there was also a route where "He" would get dragged into a beauty contest, but I archived that (LOL). If there is chance in the future of writing a development like that it might also be good to try writing that route. Sorry I didn't write it.

Uhh, bruh, a turning point every 10 vols means an arc every 10 vols. For example, from vol 10 up to vol 20 are undeniably, absolutely, without a shred of doubt, the black knight arc. It was such a period in Rio's life. the 4 vols thing is at most the current running plot, those are mini arcs. Come on jagt-kun, you're better than this. Ahh, when you say arc, you mean story arc, huh. Understandable, but when I say arc I mean one way of classifying a number (10 here) of volumes in one bundle.

Regarding the rules arc thing. Well, he said that a turning point is every 10 vols, and vol 20 had the turning point of the rules, what would vol 30 have then? Do you expect the rules to be broken by vol 84 or something? But yeah objectively speaking, this is just my opinion against yours. The way I interpreted Kitayama's words is that he wanted rules arc to be vol 20 to 30, but gave up on that because fans aren't happy and shortened it to 5 vols. No I didn't misunderstand him, I used interpretation bro. I'll also add that I interpreted the 10 vols turning points to be equal to eras in Rio's life; 1 -> 10 = orphan/nomad Rio. 10 -> 20 = black knight/noble Rio. 20 -> ? = human-transcendental Rio.

In my case, what I call the conclusion those units of 10 vols is the change in Rio that, in my opinion, he cares the most about himself, and those would be his decision of accepting to have Miharu and the other girls by his side, his nobility was always somehting he was ready to throw away if needed after all, and his return to transcendentality. How many mini arcs are the in the middle like Christina's arc, the revenge arc or the saint's arc, called like that by HJ bunko and not me, is a different topic. Volume 30 could be Rio and Miharu recovering their memories as Ryuo and Lina, the six great spirits could finally be released, the six wise Gods coming back to the stage in full,etc... we have quite the many candidates.

[hihoperorin]

Originally Posted by jagt

This isn't about simping anyone or going hard on whoever, it's a matter of trying to look as objectively as possible using only the confirmed facts at how the transcendentals used to be. Meanwhile you are making up meanings for the wise God's actions by yourself while giving the rest a credit they don't really seem to deserve.

Why did you even assume I didn't consider this to be about objectiveness? When I say "you're simping to the 7 wise or that you're going hard on the other demi gods, that's just another way of saying that you're being subjective, it's literally the same thing but said with a bit more spice. Either way, I'm happy we're on the same page, even tho we seem to be talking around each other. Anyway, yes this is about objectively seeing the information we have. Which by the way, to be clear, we don't have information, we have fragments of information since that's all Kitayama gave us, and we're both making many assumptions.

I didn't make any meaning up, the wise gods don't have to think of it that way, but when they did their deed, it could be interpreted in many ways, what I said is one of them, earth spirit himself called them deluded half humans who couldn't accept reality. That's how he interpreted their actions and it's his right to interpret them in any way that makes sense, which I did too, I believe.

Sora described Ryuo as a hermit whose only connection to another human was she herself, the legend about him founding a country is also something she made up and that got distorted by one thousand years of oral tradition afterwards, Ryuo could have made like Fenris and seal his own powers so the rules wouldn't affect him during the divine war, but claiming he did better guiding mortals than the six wise Gods with just those few years of work is a bit of a stretch, even more when it can also be said that not keeping an eye in the rest of the transcendentals so they don't do anything that endangers the world is his failure as the world guardian.

You should look in the mirror next time you think I'm making assumptions or misunderstanding. You take Sora's words that Ryuuou is a hermit that interacted with nobody at face value, but you call her a liar faster than a hot potato when she said he founded a country. Now that's just you cherry picking whatever you want from the story. Also where did you get the idea that Sora lies in the first place, very far fetched, afaict, she seems like a fairly objective individual, she thinks the wise gods are a pile of garbage, but she, on multiple occasions admitted that their brains are the real deal. She's true to her feelings but admits the reality as she sees it, that's the Sora we've been shown. Also she told Rio that she's the one who propagated the legend of Ryuuou, she worships her master, so if there were any lies in her words, she would have told Rio about them. I'll take the planetary jump in logic that Sora lied for no meaning, but she wouldn't lie to Rio. Besides, you know she was brought up by the dragon king, what was the dude teaching her to become such a liar, heck, Sora would never lie if only so that nobody would say that Ryuuou brought her up wrong, just what the heck have you been reading, man. See, once again you sit there lecturing me about making stuff up and objectivity, while you're so fast to defend wise gods and diss the other characters, get real bro, show some objectivity yourself for the love of.

About Ryuuou, sure, I agree here, I bet dude was busy cooking some spaghetti while wise gods were cooking up some real shit. Although, I think it's a bit unfair to put all the blame on him when his own colleagues made the mess, but it was still his job. Although, now I'm hella confused, if you think that about the dragon king, how come you think the wise gods didn't go against orders and you also think they didn't fail at their job??? You're so objective I'm tearing up.

About the six great spirits, there isn't a single word anywhere about them ever coming out of the wilderness, giving any guidance or help to anyone or about that being the reason why they were whorshipped, there isn't also a single word anywhere about the slavement of spirits being propagated by the six wise Gods or the spirit folks' persecution starting just after war, its the opposite, the spirits and the spirit folk left the Stralh and Yagumo regions due to the human persecution before the war and that's precisely why by the time the war started they were already in the wilderness, you mixed up the timeline for some thing there. The war came after the exodus and not otherwise. Also the spirit enslavement describbed by the spirit folk's registers if I don't remember wrong was for the sake of forcing the spirits to fight, there couldn't be a dead end deader than trying to use as an energy source a creature that needs the magic power it is provided to keep its existence and be able to keep fighting on.

Umm, hello?? Six spirits were living in the spirit village, that's where Lina went to get them from for the war, and that's why the records of that event still remains in the spirit village. The six great spirits led some high ranking spirits and spirit folk warriors and nobody bloody returned from the war. I'm probably misremembering some stuff but, surely, you're the one misremembering in bulk. The six great blessed the frigging hell out of the spirit folks, yeah. How is that not considered guiding anybody. Hmm, the energy part, maybe you're right, I don't remember all too well either, but it's not far fetched to think of them as batteries, at the end of the day, spirits are masses of energy, mana with a will. Now your claim about the spirit folk enslavement and exodus part, where was it mentioned in the books? Not being sarcastic, ok? I've no idea at which volume we read this stuff, and I do in fact have the timeline messed up in my head like you said. Although I still think I remember it more correctly than you do, probably.

You are also making up the part about the wise Gods going against God's orders, we don't know what orders they were given so of course we can't know what breaks them or not, besides if we are going to criticize going against God's orders we have to criticize the things that lessen the rules' effects too and even more than that Ryuo's and Lina's plan to break them. You say they neglected their duty but we have no basis to say that becuase we simply don't know what they did or not before they started their experiment. Besides I'm not saying either what the six wise Gods did wasn't wrong, I just say they didn't do it completely thoughtlessly.

To anybody listening, find yourself a wife that treats you like jagt treats the seven wise.

It was clearly stated in the book, vol 21 iirc that the wise gods did their job of guiding the humans for a while and then got fed up with the continuous warring of the damn mortals, so they switched to doing what they do best, making a mess of everything. Regardless of the pure intentions they may or may not have had, the seven wise hated the humans for always warring and their answer to that was starting a literal world war. I mean Lina for one, probably thought that they should bring back their god to handle things and correct what has gone wrong. The others may have felt similarly, doesn't matter tho, they still started world war. You can say whatever you want about how it was unexpected that they opened the gates to one hell of a place, but it was their job as researchers to predict that. You know what they should do after they make that completely sensible prediction? Stop! They should have stopped instead of spamming the world nuke button until it worked.

If Reis survided with Ryuo as his opponent during the divine war then there must be a way to survive anhilation, different from Ryuo Rio doesn't have a full mastery of his authority either, the part about Rio forgetting or not about dead people if he fights for revenge wasn't explained anywhere so let's forget this concrete point since it would just be both of us making assumptions.

Using your own words, you made that up. That's just one assumption too many. We don't know if Reiss survived a face of with the late dragon king or laid eyes on annihilation. I for my part am assuming as I like that Reiss could have never survived it if Ryuuou wanted him dead.

In my case, what I call the conclusion those units of 10 vols is the change in Rio that, in my opinion, he cares the most about himself, and those would be his decision of accepting to have Miharu and the other girls by his side, his nobility was always somehting he was ready to throw away if needed after all, and his return to transcendentality. How many mini arcs are the in the middle like Christina's arc, the revenge arc or the saint's arc, called like that by HJ bunko and not me, is a different topic. Volume 30 could be Rio and Miharu recovering their memories as Ryuo and Lina, the six great spirits could finally be released, the six wise Gods coming back to the stage in full,etc... we have quite the many candidates.

Ah, to clarify on the nobility point, I didn't mean that it mattered, but that it was strongly correlated with the things he was doing. Being a noble made it possible to be around Celia, Satsuki, Lize, Christina, etc. all of whom played big parts at some point in those arcs (ok, lets call them arcs, I mean the naming doesn't really matter as long as we're on the same page, I'll just call the 10 vol things periods and the 4 vol things arcs,) so what I meant was that him being a noble facilitated a lot plots that took place in that period - vol 10 to 20 - in his life and laid the groundwork for some stuff in the future I suppose. Ah, kind of unrelated but i"ll add that I think Rio will be remembered by all the world at some point, otherwise wouldn't make sense for him to marry all of those big shot girls, wait, unless this is not a *gulp* I'll stop here, for my own sake.

Btw, I like your opinion on the afterword so I have nothing to say against it.

[jagt]

Originally Posted by hihoperorin

Why did you even assume I didn't consider this to be about objectiveness? When I say "you're simping to the 7 wise or that you're going hard on the other demi gods, that's just another way of saying that you're being subjective, it's literally the same thing but said with a bit more spice. Either way, I'm happy we're on the same page, even tho we seem to be talking around each other. Anyway, yes this is about objectively seeing the information we have. Which by the way, to be clear, we don't have information, we have fragments of information since that's all Kitayama gave us, and we're both making many assumptions.

I didn't make any meaning up, the wise gods don't have to think of it that way, but when they did their deed, it could be interpreted in many ways, what I said is one of them, earth spirit himself called them deluded half humans who couldn't accept reality. That's how he interpreted their actions and it's his right to interpret them in any way that makes sense, which I did too, I believe.

Of course you can interpret their actions in any way you see fit, but you interpretation in the end is something subjective and of course unsuited as a base for any judgement on anyone that has any intention to call itselft objective.

You should look in the mirror next time you think I'm making assumptions or misunderstanding. You take Sora's words that Ryuuou is a hermit that interacted with nobody at face value, but you call her a liar faster than a hot potato when she said he founded a country. Now that's just you cherry picking whatever you want from the story. Also where did you get the idea that Sora lies in the first place, very far fetched, afaict, she seems like a fairly objective individual, she thinks the wise gods are a pile of garbage, but she, on multiple occasions admitted that their brains are the real deal. She's true to her feelings but admits the reality as she sees it, that's the Sora we've been shown. Also she told Rio that she's the one who propagated the legend of Ryuuou, she worships her master, so if there were any lies in her words, she would have told Rio about them. I'll take the planetary jump in logic that Sora lied for no meaning, but she wouldn't lie to Rio. Besides, you know she was brought up by the dragon king, what was the dude teaching her to become such a liar, heck, Sora would never lie if only so that nobody would say that Ryuuou brought her up wrong, just what the heck have you been reading, man. See, once again you sit there lecturing me about making stuff up and objectivity, while you're so fast to defend wise gods and diss the other characters, get real bro, show some objectivity yourself for the love of.

About Ryuuou, sure, I agree here, I bet dude was busy cooking some spaghetti while wise gods were cooking up some real shit. Although, I think it's a bit unfair to put all the blame on him when his own colleagues made the mess, but it was still his job. Although, now I'm hella confused, if you think that about the dragon king, how come you think the wise gods didn't go against orders and you also think they didn't fail at their job??? You're so objective I'm tearing up.

It isn't just Sora's words, it is the fact that the rules make it impossible for Ryuo to interact with anyone and that he had his damn house in the peak of a ten thousand meters high mountain away from human civilization in a corner of the Yagumo region. If that isn't a damn hermit then what it is? Besides until we can confirm that Ryuo made just like Fenris and sealed his powers for the duration of the battles in the Yagumo region so the rules wouldn't affect him Sora's story can only be a lie, otherwise the rules would make it impossible for Ryuo to build a kingdom. Or do you mind explaining me how people can revere someone as the hero king if they can't remember his existence? Even if Sora didn't lie and Ryuo did like Fenris so he could be remembered his few years as a king would still remain a weak base for saying he did a better work guiding mortals than the six wise Gods, even more if then results that Lina took care of most of the ruling-related matters. Besides, even if Sora didn't say any lie her objectivity goes out the window when it is about the dragon king, she will embellish him in any way possible and won't say no to any embellisment made by others either.

Now let's assume that just as you said Sora would never do something that might make others think Ryuo raised her poorly, surely you would have explanations for all the things Sora did until now that speak poorly of her education. Ryuo used to tell her a lot to eat her veggies but she didn't only stay the same picky eater for their five hundred years together, she also didn't have any problem surviving one thousand years just on grilled meat just from pure sloppiness, at the beginning of the latest book we were also showed how she asked to not be put vegetals in her plate despite how her pickyness could be something that could reflect poorly on her foster father. What about the glares that Sora sends at people once Rio looks away from her or the brusque way in which she adressed everyone at Rio's mansion during her stay, or how unpolite she was with Elle despite her possible noble background? How can Sora do all those things that would talk poorly of who educated her if it is as you say?

Now about the difference about Ryuo and the wise Gods, in Ryuo's case we know his orders and job and can say if he broke his orders or failed at his job or not based on that. In the wise God's case we don't know their orders so there is no base on which to mount an accusation of they breaking them, we know their job was to guide humanity but we can't accuse them of not doing that without any knowledge of how much attention people pay to their oracles/divine revelations/whatever. Do I think they failed at their job and break their orders? Yes, I do. Do I have any good basis made of confirmed facts to accuse them of anything? No, I don't, so I don't do it. I can accuse them of throwing the world into chaos, of not having put enough thought into their acts, for that I have a basis, but there isn't one to accuse them of breaking orders or failing at their job.

Umm, hello?? Six spirits were living in the spirit village, that's where Lina went to get them from for the war, and that's why the records of that event still remains in the spirit village. The six great spirits led some high ranking spirits and spirit folk warriors and nobody bloody returned from the war. I'm probably misremembering some stuff but, surely, you're the one misremembering in bulk. The six great blessed the frigging hell out of the spirit folks, yeah. How is that not considered guiding anybody. Hmm, the energy part, maybe you're right, I don't remember all too well either, but it's not far fetched to think of them as batteries, at the end of the day, spirits are masses of energy, mana with a will. Now your claim about the spirit folk enslavement and exodus part, where was it mentioned in the books? Not being sarcastic, ok? I've no idea at which volume we read this stuff, and I do in fact have the timeline messed up in my head like you said. Although I still think I remember it more correctly than you do, probably.

Yes, the six great spirits were living in the village, because the spirit folk set the village where they lived, not because the spirits themselves founded it. Besides, we also don't have any info on when and why the spirit folk received the blessing, there is absolutely no basis to consider that blessing something the spirit folk was given to escape their predicament, they could have perfectly well have received the blessing before the establishment of the rules in exchange of their faith. And it was the chapter 3 of volume 19 where it was said that the spirit folk's legend mentioned the humans using spells to enslave spirits, and not single word about energy sources there. Besides you are mixing things up in regards to mana. In the series what is called mana is the whole of small little spirits hunging in the air someone has to take control of to activate magic or spirits arts, but they aren't made of magic power, there were a lot of games and books where the magic power is called mana, but in seirei gensouki the magic power is just magic power or ode, how it is know outside of the Stralh region, feel free to reread volume 2 if you need to also refresh that part.

Using your own words, you made that up. That's just one assumption too many. We don't know if Reiss survived a face of with the late dragon king or laid eyes on annihilation. I for my part am assuming as I like that Reiss could have never survived it if Ryuuou wanted him dead.

Did you bother to read Fenris' and Elle's conversations in the latest volume. Fenris said there wasn't a way for him to mistake the dragon king with anyone else, in other words, Ryuo must have done something that engraved himself that much on Fenris memories, there isn't a route where they didn't meet in the past here. Same goes for Elle, that concluded Rio must not have his memories of the past or not be Ryuo because he didn't recognize her, in other words, they absolutely were acquainted and had the kind of relationship that wouldn't let them to act indifferent in the other's presence. Elle said too that it was impossible for Rio to go deeper in the dungeon without her permission unless he used his authorithy, in other words, she was completely sure anhilation could open a path, something hard without having seen its power with her own eyes. Fenris also rejected to fight Rio arguing that if he could make full use of anhilation their loses would be too great, another senence that can't be said without him having seen anhilation and being completely aware of its power, despite that Fenris didn't they would lose against Rio, ergo he was confident they could win even if Rio had his authority so they must have a countermeasure or know
about weak point or limit of the authority.

[hihoperorin]

Originally Posted by jagt

Of course you can interpret their actions in any way you see fit, but you interpretation in the end is something subjective and of course unsuited as a base for any judgement on anyone that has any intention to call itselft objective.

How would you judge them, then? What would you call objective? Are you just gonna ask them about their original intentions and give them a pat on the shoulder?

It isn't just Sora's words, it is the fact that the rules make it impossible for Ryuo to interact with anyone and that he had his damn house in the peak of a ten thousand meters high mountain away from human civilization in a corner of the Yagumo region. If that isn't a damn hermit then what it is? Besides until we can confirm that Ryuo made just like Fenris and sealed his powers for the duration of the battles in the Yagumo region so the rules wouldn't affect him Sora's story can only be a lie, otherwise the rules would make it impossible for Ryuo to build a kingdom. Or do you mind explaining me how people can revere someone as the hero king if they can't remember his existence? Even if Sora didn't lie and Ryuo did like Fenris so he could be remembered his few years as a king would still remain a weak base for saying he did a better work guiding mortals than the six wise Gods, even more if then results that Lina took care of most of the ruling-related matters. Besides, even if Sora didn't say any lie her objectivity goes out the window when it is about the dragon king, she will embellish him in any way possible and won't say no to any embellisment made by others either.

Well Ryuuou himself told Sora it would be good if she made a few friends, I like to think he followed his own advice and interacted often with people, you say the rules prevent it, but then you say he could have fought if he bound himself like Fenris, I guess our biggest enemy is really ourselves, hahahaha. As for his 10km house, I'm sure he just liked the view. Now jokes aside, I think you're misunderstanding something. When talking about the info we have, we should be objective. But since we barely have any info, what you and I are doing is that we take one bit of info and build 20 assumptions from it to make a conclusion, there is no objectivity in assumptions, we both are mostly wrong, ok?

Wait, wait, wait. Wait a damn moment, you're saying you think ryuo is not the one who killed the demons in Yagumo???? Then who do you suppose did it bro? Spaghettiman? Saitama? Goku? And yet again you doubt Sora, whom by the way we know probably fought the demons in the war a thousand years back, Sora talked about it when she decimated that dragul thing in the dungeon, that she saw it a thousand years back in the war, that it was a weakling slightly stronger than other weaklings. I guess she was lying then too. If not then Sora at least fought demons in Yagumo.

Also, people can revere the hero king while not remembering his existence just the same way people can revere the six wise gods and remember they gave them magic whereas not a single soul remembers them in actuality. It's almost like we don't know the lore and the rules that well, crazy, right?

Now you keep talking about the rules or what Fernis does to circumvent them, but we don't know everything about the rules nor do we know what Fernis is doing to bypass them. About the dragon king, part of the rules was that if the interests of an organization or individual align with a transcendental to work for the world, then they can cooperate, maybe he made use of that in some way. Ofc, you're gonna reject this, but we don't know what happened, Kitayama can make whatever events he likes in the lore and add whatever rules and all to make it work.

Besides, if you wanna talk objectivity, anything that breaths did a better job at guiding mortals than the wise gods, that's just a fact. If the hole they opened connected to a place where the dragon king's level of power was the standard, their entire world would have been dinner by the end of the day they opened their hole on, I guess you'd call that proper guidance, wise god style yo.

Then again, I told you, didn't I? We don't have info, we have bits of info that is practically nothing, that's why we have to fill in the gaps, which are the entire lore and entire plot, with so many assumptions, we end up on very different ends of what could have happened.

Now let's assume that just as you said Sora would never do something that might make others think Ryuo raised her poorly, surely you would have explanations for all the things Sora did until now that speak poorly of her education. Ryuo used to tell her a lot to eat her veggies but she didn't only stay the same picky eater for their five hundred years together, she also didn't have any problem surviving one thousand years just on grilled meat just from pure sloppiness, at the beginning of the latest book we were also showed how she asked to not be put vegetals in her plate despite how her pickyness could be something that could reflect poorly on her foster father. What about the glares that Sora sends at people once Rio looks away from her or the brusque way in which she adressed everyone at Rio's mansion during her stay, or how unpolite she was with Elle despite her possible noble background? How can Sora do all those things that would talk poorly of who educated her if it is as you say?

Now we're debating a little girl eating her veggies, we've come a long way. Alas, I fear I'm underqualified to partake in such cosmopolitan polemics.

The only hints that appear in the story to indicate that Sora lied about anything are the ones you got when you read her parts while smoking crack. I just don't get why you won't let go of this foolish idea. Also, please realize that you've stopped trying to prove that Sora lied and went down the path of proving that Sora is rude. She can be rude and not a liar. You don't have to fight so hard to prove my weakest argument to be wrong. Btw, I wouldn't call the right/left arm of the god of dragons talking down to nobles (lol) rude, she's older than their countries bruh, and whatever the nobles think makes them that great and deserving of respect means nothing to a demi god's familiar. Besides, didn't L appear out of nowhere and start saying whatever she wanted too. Just what do you have against Sora? You just try to find anything to criticize in her. The glares? The glares are what makes her cute, hahahah.
Finally Sora is Rio's close aide, she's bound to always be around the main character and actually play important roles, why would the author risk giving her such a negative trait for no reason?
You know, it's your opinion, but when you hold into it so strongly without even providing a convincing reason... Do you hate her not eating her veggies that much? lol

Now about the difference about Ryuo and the wise Gods, in Ryuo's case we know his orders and job and can say if he broke his orders or failed at his job or not based on that. In the wise God's case we don't know their orders so there is no base on which to mount an accusation of they breaking them, we know their job was to guide humanity but we can't accuse them of not doing that without any knowledge of how much attention people pay to their oracles/divine revelations/whatever. Do I think they failed at their job and break their orders? Yes, I do. Do I have any good basis made of confirmed facts to accuse them of anything? No, I don't, so I don't do it. I can accuse them of throwing the world into chaos, of not having put enough thought into their acts, for that I have a basis, but there isn't one to accuse them of breaking orders or failing at their job.

We don't know their orders but we know their job, what does that mean? Their orders are their job. Also, unless their orders/job was to protect the world then chances are they got an F Wait, unless it was the wise gods' plan all along to create such a big battle, remove the demi gods from the world and make the humans calm down a little by having them see what a real war looks like, thus changing the humans' mindsets and pushing them to found big nations that strengthen stability in the area for a long time to come, well if that was the 6 wise end game all along, then they were smart and I guess they did do their job properly.

Except they tied no loose knots and screwed over so many beings, karma is a bitch and she's probably in town looking for them a thousand years later. Yeah, never mind, they're a special breed of stupid after all.

Now, what oracles are you on about? Was it said somewhere? Did I forget something again? Anyway. You keep blaming Ryuo but, he didn't fail his job you see. Ryuo had the task of protecting the world from worldly threats, not protecting people or killing demons (tho, we don't even know what demons are), he was the sole demi god whose job had nothing to do with what becomes of the people living on that world, all humans could die and the world would still go round. Not to mention, the world itself is still going strong, you know. If the protector of the world failed his job, that means their world became star dust floating in the universe, which it didn't, because chances are, daddy Ryuo cleaned up after everyone before dying in a pool of his blood. Although letting the wise gods cause that much mayhem was a failure on his part, agreed. Now that I think about it, didn't Lina have to convince him to return with her, maybe the existence of the demons itself wasn't a problem from his perspective, as long as they don't attack him and anything on sight.

Yes, the six great spirits were living in the village, because the spirit folk set the village where they lived, not because the spirits themselves founded it. Besides, we also don't have any info on when and why the spirit folk received the blessing, there is absolutely no basis to consider that blessing something the spirit folk was given to escape their predicament, they could have perfectly well have received the blessing before the establishment of the rules in exchange of their faith. And it was the chapter 3 of volume 19 where it was said that the spirit folk's legend mentioned the humans using spells to enslave spirits, and not single word about energy sources there. Besides you are mixing things up in regards to mana. In the series what is called mana is the whole of small little spirits hunging in the air someone has to take control of to activate magic or spirits arts, but they aren't made of magic power, there were a lot of games and books where the magic power is called mana, but in seirei gensouki the magic power is just magic power or ode, how it is know outside of the Stralh region, feel free to reread volume 2 if you need to also refresh that part.

Ok, I went back to read this part and you were totally right about it. I didn't say the six spirits founded the village, man, your powers of assumption are so strong you're now making assumptions about my assumptions. Again, I didn't say they were blessed to escape their predicament either, look, my entire point here can be summed up to: long ago, the six spirits and the spirit folks lived together in harmony, until the fire nation attacked, that's all we know about them in the first place. Ok so if they lived together and the folks worshipped the six, then it's not that hard to guess they did things for them that made them worship them, for some reason you seem to be thinking the six never acted like proper gods for the folks. Once again, we're both assuming, but trust me bro, my assumptions make more sense, at the very least they blessed them, which made the folks much stronger inherently. How does that not amount to any level of guidance to you.

Did you bother to read Fenris' and Elle's conversations in the latest volume. Fenris said there wasn't a way for him to mistake the dragon king with anyone else, in other words, Ryuo must have done something that engraved himself that much on Fenris memories, there isn't a route where they didn't meet in the past here. Same goes for Elle, that concluded Rio must not have his memories of the past or not be Ryuo because he didn't recognize her, in other words, they absolutely were acquainted and had the kind of relationship that wouldn't let them to act indifferent in the other's presence. Elle said too that it was impossible for Rio to go deeper in the dungeon without her permission unless he used his authorithy, in other words, she was completely sure anhilation could open a path, something hard without having seen its power with her own eyes. Fenris also rejected to fight Rio arguing that if he could make full use of anhilation their loses would be too great, another senence that can't be said without him having seen anhilation and being completely aware of its power, despite that Fenris didn't they would lose against Rio, ergo he was confident they could win even if Rio had his authority so they must have a countermeasure or know
about weak point or limit of the authority.

Hahaha I forgot that discussion, but still, I was under the impression it was L who said she wouldn't mistake Ryuo, not Fenris.
Regardless, so what if they said they would never mistake him, it could be for so many things, doesn't have to mean they fought, in the first place Ryuo was probably a top class war power in that war, chances are anything with eyes that fought in that war wouldn't mistake him.
Don't "there isn't a route" me, there is only what Kitayama writes, and Kitayama often writes obvious stuff that turns out wrong just to confuse us. I'll give you that they were acquainted, I wasn't even arguing that, but the part about fighting and winning chances might as well be their hubris, just a few vols ago, Fenris/Reiss was surprised that Rio contended with awakened hero Erica, in vol 14 Reiss also said Rio + Aishia should surpass awakened hero level and he thought Rio alone was awakened hero power, yet was beyond surprised when Rio took down earth beast Erika, he a confused man, for sure. They also might have seen the authority from afar and not tasted it personally or just heard about it. Point is, They could be overestimating themselves or underestimating Rio.

Heck, in the first place, Kitayama is probably thinking right now what sort of power to make annihilation into.

Ok, let me stop for a moment, what are we even debating here, I got no idea. Lets just stop here, man, at this point I'm just arguing and can't even tell what this was about. We're just falling into an eternal assumption spiral of redundancy. Let Kitayama spin his story for a bit before we jump at each other's throats.

[jagt]

Originally Posted by hihoperorin

How would you judge them, then? What would you call objective? Are you just gonna ask them about their original intentions and give them a pat on the shoulder?

If judgements are based just in confirmed facts from the books they are objective, if not they aren't.

Well Ryuuou himself told Sora it would be good if she made a few friends, I like to think he followed his own advice and interacted often with people, you say the rules prevent it, but then you say he could have fought if he bound himself like Fenris, I guess our biggest enemy is really ourselves, hahahaha. As for his 10km house, I'm sure he just liked the view. Now jokes aside, I think you're misunderstanding something. When talking about the info we have, we should be objective. But since we barely have any info, what you and I are doing is that we take one bit of info and build 20 assumptions from it to make a conclusion, there is no objectivity in assumptions, we both are mostly wrong, ok?

Wait, wait, wait. Wait a damn moment, you're saying you think ryuo is not the one who killed the demons in Yagumo???? Then who do you suppose did it bro? Spaghettiman? Saitama? Goku? And yet again you doubt Sora, whom by the way we know probably fought the demons in the war a thousand years back, Sora talked about it when she decimated that dragul thing in the dungeon, that she saw it a thousand years back in the war, that it was a weakling slightly stronger than other weaklings. I guess she was lying then too. If not then Sora at least fought demons in Yagumo.

Also, people can revere the hero king while not remembering his existence just the same way people can revere the six wise gods and remember they gave them magic whereas not a single soul remembers them in actuality. It's almost like we don't know the lore and the rules that well, crazy, right?

Now you keep talking about the rules or what Fernis does to circumvent them, but we don't know everything about the rules nor do we know what Fernis is doing to bypass them. About the dragon king, part of the rules was that if the interests of an organization or individual align with a transcendental to work for the world, then they can cooperate, maybe he made use of that in some way. Ofc, you're gonna reject this, but we don't know what happened, Kitayama can make whatever events he likes in the lore and add whatever rules and all to make it work.

Besides, if you wanna talk objectivity, anything that breaths did a better job at guiding mortals than the wise gods, that's just a fact. If the hole they opened connected to a place where the dragon king's level of power was the standard, their entire world would have been dinner by the end of the day they opened their hole on, I guess you'd call that proper guidance, wise god style yo.

Then again, I told you, didn't I? We don't have info, we have bits of info that is practically nothing, that's why we have to fill in the gaps, which are the entire lore and entire plot, with so many assumptions, we end up on very different ends of what could have happened.

Ryuo told Sora it could be good if she could make friends while offering her to release her from familiarhood, in other words, those were words said from the premise that the rules wouldn't get in Sora's way.

I didn't say that Ryuo wasn't the one who killed the monsters in the Yagumo region, what I said is that until we can confirm if he did like Fenris or not it is impossible to be sure if he really founded a kingdom while he fought the monsters. That until we know that we can't say if Sora's legend narrates real facts or not.

With revere I don't mean the worship that the wise Gods receive, what I meant here is that the rules would make the things described in the legend of Ryuo impossible. If they can't remember Ryuo how can they begin to look up at him as the symbol of the resistance against the monsters and gather under him? If they can't remember Ryuo how could they get disappointed at him when he wasn't there to protect them? If they can't remember him how could they be angry at him at his return from his last battle and demand his abdication? As long as we don't know if Ryuo can do like Fenris Sora's legend can only be full of lies. Ryuo, Sora and Lina certainly were the ones that saved the Yagumo region but they could have done it skipping the kingdom building part.

Let's supposse for a moment that the exceptions to the rules applied during the divine war. Why would Lina create the masks then? If it is as you say they could have just charged without any concern into the armies of monsters even without the masks.

The wise God's opening the hole between worlds speaks about how good they are or care to be at keeping the world and people safe not about how good they are or not at having people follow their lead, those are two different things.

Now we're debating a little girl eating her veggies, we've come a long way. Alas, I fear I'm underqualified to partake in such cosmopolitan polemics.

The only hints that appear in the story to indicate that Sora lied about anything are the ones you got when you read her parts while smoking crack. I just don't get why you won't let go of this foolish idea. Also, please realize that you've stopped trying to prove that Sora lied and went down the path of proving that Sora is rude. She can be rude and not a liar. You don't have to fight so hard to prove my weakest argument to be wrong. Btw, I wouldn't call the right/left arm of the god of dragons talking down to nobles (lol) rude, she's older than their countries bruh, and whatever the nobles think makes them that great and deserving of respect means nothing to a demi god's familiar. Besides, didn't L appear out of nowhere and start saying whatever she wanted too. Just what do you have against Sora? You just try to find anything to criticize in her. The glares? The glares are what makes her cute, hahahah.
Finally Sora is Rio's close aide, she's bound to always be around the main character and actually play important roles, why would the author risk giving her such a negative trait for no reason?
You know, it's your opinion, but when you hold into it so strongly without even providing a convincing reason... Do you hate her not eating her veggies that much? lol

Don't go on tangents, make fun of people's points or try to invalidate them with weak excuses when you can't refute them. This isn't about Sora eating her damn veggies or not or about Sora being polite or not. You said Sora would never lie about Ryuo or simply lie because she would never do anything that reflects poorly on her foster father's education, I gave you examples of how Sora has no problems doing things that reflect poorly on Ryuo's raising and now you try to make fun of those examples so they can't count, but they do. I explained above already why Sora's legend could be just fiction, if you never saw a problem with any of that you can blame it on the smoke of that crack you were talking about if you want.

Besides, Sora being a higher being isn't an excuse for everything, even more when she can't prove that higher standing and there are plenty of people of high standing like kings, princesses and the very same Rio that always address people with respect regardless of their higher standing. And yes, Elle appeared out of nowhere but even if she wasn't overly formal she wasn't disrespectful either. But wait, wait, wait, yes, the glares are adorable so everything is fine, if you are a cute loli you can be as much of a shitty brat as you want to. How could the crack make me forget even something like that? The author has already given deffects to other characters during the 20 volumes prior to Sora's appearance, even people close to Rio. Celia can't keep her room in order herself, Flora is too honest for her own good, Charlotte is a little devil that enjoys messing with people, etc... it is matter of giving a character its own identity as he has done many times before while letting it at a forgivebable level because thery are the heroines after all.

We don't know their orders but we know their job, what does that mean? Their orders are their job. Also, unless their orders/job was to protect the world then chances are they got an F Wait, unless it was the wise gods' plan all along to create such a big battle, remove the demi gods from the world and make the humans calm down a little by having them see what a real war looks like, thus changing the humans' mindsets and pushing them to found big nations that strengthen stability in the area for a long time to come, well if that was the 6 wise end game all along, then they were smart and I guess they did do their job properly.

Except they tied no loose knots and screwed over so many beings, karma is a bitch and she's probably in town looking for them a thousand years later. Yeah, never mind, they're a special breed of stupid after all.

Now, what oracles are you on about? Was it said somewhere? Did I forget something again? Anyway. You keep blaming Ryuo but, he didn't fail his job you see. Ryuo had the task of protecting the world from worldly threats, not protecting people or killing demons (tho, we don't even know what demons are), he was the sole demi god whose job had nothing to do with what becomes of the people living on that world, all humans could die and the world would still go round. Not to mention, the world itself is still going strong, you know. If the protector of the world failed his job, that means their world became star dust floating in the universe, which it didn't, because chances are, daddy Ryuo cleaned up after everyone before dying in a pool of his blood. Although letting the wise gods cause that much mayhem was a failure on his part, agreed. Now that I think about it, didn't Lina have to convince him to return with her, maybe the existence of the demons itself wasn't a problem from his perspective, as long as they don't attack him and anything on sight.

During Aisia's recollection of the past she said it was the wise God's job to pass God's words down to people via divine revelations/oracles or whatever, but how they called it after the rules's establishment is irrelevant, the point here is that the only way to measure how good they were at leading or guiding people is to look at how much people did as the wise God's told them to or not, and until we have a grasp on that we can't accuse them of being bad at their job to guide humanity, how stupid they are for what they did is a separate matter.

And I don't blame Ryuo for what he did, but it is undenieable that not keeping an eye on the other transcendentals is also a failure on his part and that being part of a plan to break the rules is a blatant violation of orders regardless of his good intentions, the world not being stardust yet only means that his failure still didn't reach catastrophic levels but the failure is there, he might have died in a pool of his own blood to clean the others' mess but he didn't eliminate the threat. That's why if people have even the slightest intention of being fair we can't just blame one side for failing their jobs or breaking orders. This isn't about the wise Gods not screwing up but about them not being the only ones that screw up and broke their orders.

Ok, I went back to read this part and you were totally right about it. I didn't say the six spirits founded the village, man, your powers of assumption are so strong you're now making assumptions about my assumptions. Again, I didn't say they were blessed to escape their predicament either, look, my entire point here can be summed up to: long ago, the six spirits and the spirit folks lived together in harmony, until the fire nation attacked, that's all we know about them in the first place. Ok so if they lived together and the folks worshipped the six, then it's not that hard to guess they did things for them that made them worship them, for some reason you seem to be thinking the six never acted like proper gods for the folks. Once again, we're both assuming, but trust me bro, my assumptions make more sense, at the very least they blessed them, which made the folks much stronger inherently. How does that not amount to any level of guidance to you.

I of course count that blessing as the spirits supporting the spirit folk, but giving guidance is about leading them, about teaching them things, telling them to live while abiding by certain principles,etc... and we have no word everywhere about them ever doing that. The only thing we have on them right now is the great earth spirit not having a problem in shooting deathly attacks several times at Latifa, Sara, Ouphia and Alma to end it with him not minding his four suppossed worshippers getting caught in his authority, something it makes it hard to believe they care about the spirit folk that much.

Hahaha I forgot that discussion, but still, I was under the impression it was L who said she wouldn't mistake Ryuo, not Fenris.
Regardless, so what if they said they would never mistake him, it could be for so many things, doesn't have to mean they fought, in the first place Ryuo was probably a top class war power in that war, chances are anything with eyes that fought in that war wouldn't mistake him.
Don't "there isn't a route" me, there is only what Kitayama writes, and Kitayama often writes obvious stuff that turns out wrong just to confuse us. I'll give you that they were acquainted, I wasn't even arguing that, but the part about fighting and winning chances might as well be their hubris, just a few vols ago, Fenris/Reiss was surprised that Rio contended with awakened hero Erica, in vol 14 Reiss also said Rio + Aishia should surpass awakened hero level and he thought Rio alone was awakened hero power, yet was beyond surprised when Rio took down earth beast Erika, he a confused man, for sure. They also might have seen the authority from afar and not tasted it personally or just heard about it. Point is, They could be overestimating themselves or underestimating Rio.

Heck, in the first place, Kitayama is probably thinking right now what sort of power to make annihilation into.

What Fenris said in volume 14 was that if Rio and Aisia combined their powers they would be awakened hero class, something that wasn't wrong, they really could just fight the beast equally when they were together like in volume 20, the fight in volume 18 was anything but equal after all, Rio managing to behead the beast once while alone might be surprising but that doesn't make Fenris to be wrong, Rio score a hit thanks to his battle prowess but that's it, the difference in power with the beast was according to Fenris' evaluation and it is not like Rio defeated the beast either. So until now Fenris' grasp of Rio's power level is right.

Ok, let me stop for a moment, what are we even debating here, I got no idea. Lets just stop here, man, at this point I'm just arguing and can't even tell what this was about. We're just falling into an eternal assumption spiral of redundancy. Let Kitayama spin his story for a bit before we jump at each other's throats.

Peace declarations are suppossed to be told before adding more fuel to the fire while saying your last piece to the other part you know?

[hihoperorin]

Originally Posted by jagt

If judgements are based just in confirmed facts from the books they are objective, if not they aren't.

Ryuo told Sora it could be good if she could make friends while offering her to release her from familiarhood, in other words, those were words said from the premise that the rules wouldn't get in Sora's way.

I didn't say that Ryuo wasn't the one who killed the monsters in the Yagumo region, what I said is that until we can confirm if he did like Fenris or not it is impossible to be sure if he really founded a kingdom while he fought the monsters. That until we know that we can't say if Sora's legend narrates real facts or not.

With revere I don't mean the worship that the wise Gods receive, what I meant here is that the rules would make the things described in the legend of Ryuo impossible. If they can't remember Ryuo how can they begin to look up at him as the symbol of the resistance against the monsters and gather under him? If they can't remember Ryuo how could they get disappointed at him when he wasn't there to protect them? If they can't remember him how could they be angry at him at his return from his last battle and demand his abdication? As long as we don't know if Ryuo can do like Fenris Sora's legend can only be full of lies. Ryuo, Sora and Lina certainly were the ones that saved the Yagumo region but they could have done it skipping the kingdom building part.

Let's supposse for a moment that the exceptions to the rules applied during the divine war. Why would Lina create the masks then? If it is as you say they could have just charged without any concern into the armies of monsters even without the masks.

The wise God's opening the hole between worlds speaks about how good they are or care to be at keeping the world and people safe not about how good they are or not at having people follow their lead, those are two different things.

Don't go on tangents, make fun of people's points or try to invalidate them with weak excuses when you can't refute them. This isn't about Sora eating her damn veggies or not or about Sora being polite or not. You said Sora would never lie about Ryuo or simply lie because she would never do anything that reflects poorly on her foster father's education, I gave you examples of how Sora has no problems doing things that reflect poorly on Ryuo's raising and now you try to make fun of those examples so they can't count, but they do. I explained above already why Sora's legend could be just fiction, if you never saw a problem with any of that you can blame it on the smoke of that crack you were talking about if you want.

Besides, Sora being a higher being isn't an excuse for everything, even more when she can't prove that higher standing and there are plenty of people of high standing like kings, princesses and the very same Rio that always address people with respect regardless of their higher standing. And yes, Elle appeared out of nowhere but even if she wasn't overly formal she wasn't disrespectful either. But wait, wait, wait, yes, the glares are adorable so everything is fine, if you are a cute loli you can be as much of a shitty brat as you want to. How could the crack make me forget even something like that? The author has already given deffects to other characters during the 20 volumes prior to Sora's appearance, even people close to Rio. Celia can't keep her room in order herself, Flora is too honest for her own good, Charlotte is a little devil that enjoys messing with people, etc... it is matter of giving a character its own identity as he has done many times before while letting it at a forgivebable level because thery are the heroines after all.

During Aisia's recollection of the past she said it was the wise God's job to pass God's words down to people via divine revelations/oracles or whatever, but how they called it after the rules's establishment is irrelevant, the point here is that the only way to measure how good they were at leading or guiding people is to look at how much people did as the wise God's told them to or not, and until we have a grasp on that we can't accuse them of being bad at their job to guide humanity, how stupid they are for what they did is a separate matter.

And I don't blame Ryuo for what he did, but it is undenieable that not keeping an eye on the other transcendentals is also a failure on his part and that being part of a plan to break the rules is a blatant violation of orders regardless of his good intentions, the world not being stardust yet only means that his failure still didn't reach catastrophic levels but the failure is there, he might have died in a pool of his own blood to clean the others' mess but he didn't eliminate the threat. That's why if people have even the slightest intention of being fair we can't just blame one side for failing their jobs or breaking orders. This isn't about the wise Gods not screwing up but about them not being the only ones that screw up and broke their orders.


I of course count that blessing as the spirits supporting the spirit folk, but giving guidance is about leading them, about teaching them things, telling them to live while abiding by certain principles,etc... and we have no word everywhere about them ever doing that. The only thing we have on them right now is the great earth spirit not having a problem in shooting deathly attacks several times at Latifa, Sara, Ouphia and Alma to end it with him not minding his four suppossed worshippers getting caught in his authority, something it makes it hard to believe they care about the spirit folk that much.

What Fenris said in volume 14 was that if Rio and Aisia combined their powers they would be awakened hero class, something that wasn't wrong, they really could just fight the beast equally when they were together like in volume 20, the fight in volume 18 was anything but equal after all, Rio managing to behead the beast once while alone might be surprising but that doesn't make Fenris to be wrong, Rio score a hit thanks to his battle prowess but that's it, the difference in power with the beast was according to Fenris' evaluation and it is not like Rio defeated the beast either. So until now Fenris' grasp of Rio's power level is right.

Peace declarations are suppossed to be told before adding more fuel to the fire while saying your last piece to the other part you know?

Hahaha, fair enough, it's like I came swinging at you while saying we shouldn't fight. But here's the thing, I don't disagree much with your points above. The thing is we started arguing about some points then started hopping around from point to point, we came so far from the initial debate. I'm pretty sure I still disagree with you on the original points we started arguing on, but the stuff above not as much, hence why I said we should probably stop here, cuz I was just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

About Rio power levels, I guess J novel butchered the part then, cuz they have it as Fenris saying that Rio alone is awakened hero level, while the two together are beyond that.

"You take Sora's words that Ryuuou is a hermit that interacted with nobody at face value, but you call her a liar faster than a hot potato when she said he founded a country. Now that's just you cherry picking whatever you want from the story. Also where did you get the idea that Sora lies in the first place, very far fetched, afaict, she seems like a fairly objective individual, she thinks the wise gods are a pile of garbage, but she, on multiple occasions admitted that their brains are the real deal. She's true to her feelings but admits the reality as she sees it, that's the Sora we've been shown. Also she told Rio that she's the one who propagated the legend of Ryuuou, she worships her master, so if there were any lies in her words, she would have told Rio about them. I'll take the planetary jump in logic that Sora lied for no meaning, but she wouldn't lie to Rio. Besides, you know she was brought up by the dragon king, what was the dude teaching her to become such a liar, heck, Sora would never lie if only so that nobody would say that Ryuuou brought her up wrong, just what the heck have you been reading, man."

That's what I wrote about the improbability of Sora being a liar. What you pulled out and started arguing about was the last sentence in the paragraph. That's all I said, whether she is rude or not has little to no consequence on whether she is a liar or not, and yes she is rude. Ok, Sora is rude, so what? The correlation between her being rude and her being a potential liar is a big fat zero my friend. All I told you was, "if you wanna argue that Sora is a liar, then maybe you don't wanna spend your time trying to prove that Sora is rude."
Besides, can you not see that you have a very strong bias against Sora as a character?

Btw, I most certainly was not trying to invalidate your argument by making jokes about them, trust me, I just couldn't help but make them bad jokes, the troll blood in me just itches man. Honestly, I feel offended, I'll have you know I made much more fun of you, but thought it was unacceptable to make so much fun of my good friend, and edited most of it out. If you didn't like the crack part then I'm sorry about it, I'll edit it out if you want. You most certainly were smoking no crack, it was probably copium.

Regardless, I now understand where you're coming from when you say Sora is lying about the legend of Ryuou, still think that's a massive jump in logic tho, but at least I get you logic, I'd say it was Kitayama shooting himself in the foot, he probably didn't have the details for the deep plot hammered in at vol 3 and he wrote the legend in a way that now makes little to no sense, how he explains it remains to be seen, but I highly doubt he will take a route that makes Sora out to be a liar.

The wise gods. I half disagree that ascertaining how good they did their job of guiding people boils down to how much the people followed them, since that assumes that the wise gods knew what they were doing when they guided people. My point is that we are not privy to the details of what is specifically meant by guiding and if the wise gods had to follow some set goal in their guidance or could they guide to the direction they wanted.

I suppose you are right, we don't know enough about them to say they failed. My point is tho: we may not know what their duties entailed, but we know that they did the most extreme action that could be taken, they executed a plan that led directly to potential world destruction, you can rest assured that whatever they were tasked to do, it absolutely included not destroying the world, something they happily drove the world towards, regardless of apparent intents.
The only way I would find them absolvable is if they had planned everything all along, as I said a post ago, everything that happened and all results including the current geopolitical composition of Strahl and the humans' current state was their plan. But we have already established that you don't agree with this view. I guess we at least agree on disagreeing.

Hey, I was joking when I said the glares make her cute, ok. And again, I'm sorry about the crack. I would never jagt, I would never.
About her being rude, I wouldn't say it's about it being excusable or not, if you wanna talk rudeness, then I believe all royalty are hella rude all the time, just cuz they were born with a country in their bank accounts, who do they think they are, Sora is really cute and lovely compared to that. And if humans wanna have their own systems where they decide who is great and gets to tell everybody when to shut up and when to stop looking at the ground, then the dragon king's familiar has no obligation to follow something like that, I'm not saying she has good manners, she certainly could get a bit respectful, but on her rules, she should learn her own respect, not the humans' rules and their respect. It doesn't matter whether they know what she is or not, the entire human race is probably alive thanks to her master, that should mean something. Also she's really strong, the weak should fear the strong (insert meme).
Finally, Celia being messy or Flora being honest to a fault is nothing compared to Sora lying to the main character when he is in serious need of lore drops and history lessons. Rio is gonna dissect whatever info he gets and make conclusions, so she lying to him is a serious hindrance and potential danger. Not to mention, if she did it now, she's gonna do it again, so how much danger does she pose to Rio. There is just no way Kita would give her such a trait.
It's not that the author is giving her a bad side to freshen out her character, it's that you're so biased against Sora, you hate her so much you just put a liar sticker on her all on your own.

Rio's part stems from his personality, and while I really love his really humble, but if you mess with him then you fuck around you find out demeanor, I also sorta wanna see him being more brazen as the dragon king. To be clear, I don't wanna see an arrogant Rio, that would kill this fantastic character's charm. More like a Rio that calmly and respectfully looks everyone in the eye as an equal, regardless of their rank in human society. It's just my wishful thinking, pay it no mind.

The spirits folks. Again yours is a reasonable take, but I considered the blessing as guidance because if you give a bunch of races that much boost in power that will continue through the generations, you've practically changed all the options they could take, the paths they could go down on, just giving them that much power should have changed the way they look at so many things, I mean even now, they're living in the middle of the wilderness, in hiding thanks to the spirit arts they're so good at, had the six never blessed them, at least the spirit folks couldn't spend the last 1000 years chilling in the wilderness. Hence why I considered it proper guidance. But then again, did we even have the exact details of what the blessing entails?

The earth spirit was in no normal state of mind for us to make any proper judgment. Nonetheless, you may have a point. That remains to be seen.


The rules and why create the masks. I don't know, it could be that when very special certain rare conditions are met in a scenario where divine rule 42 is applicable, the demi gods can fight without a worry, and that's what the seeds of ruin were used for. Whatever the heck I wrote, can you prove me wrong, we don't know. That's why I said, we should let Kitayama write the story first before we open fire on each other. I mean, I'm enjoying this, (hopefully you are too), so I'm more than happy to keep you company, but we're not gonna make any progress running in circles or change anything Kita is writing.

[jagt]

Originally Posted by hihoperorin

Hahaha, fair enough, it's like I came swinging at you while saying we shouldn't fight. But here's the thing, I don't disagree much with your points above. The thing is we started arguing about some points then started hopping around from point to point, we came so far from the initial debate. I'm pretty sure I still disagree with you on the original points we started arguing on, but the stuff above not as much, hence why I said we should probably stop here, cuz I was just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

Since this properly sounds like a peace declaration I will stop this too. But before that I will just make one last thing clear, when I say Sora lies I was just talking about how the legend of Ryuo should be fiction unless it turns out Ryuo could do like Fenris, I wasn't including whatever other question Rio might have asked her about the past and I also don't think or meant to say she would lie to whoever for no reason at all, funny thing too that that is another plot hole, less than ten pages before summoning Sora Rio was lamenting how little Aisia told him about how Ryuo and Lina saved the Yagumo region and put an end to the war after that, then Sora appears and he didn't ask her a single question about the divine war.

[hihoperorin]

I guess we just signed our Versailles treaty then.
You're right, it makes no sense that Rio didn't ask Sora about every piece of info she has, it just makes no sense. Forget the war, he didn't even ask her obvious questions about himself like if she knows how he used his authority before or if she knew if it had weaknesses. Not even questions about Lina, even though they went looking for clues Lina left, he didn't even try to get an image of what sort of personality Lina had.
Kitayama could always add a flashback, but we've already seen a simple info desynchronization when Rio didn't even know that Sora fought draguls in the war.

Btw, I wonder where everyone went, ah, they probably didn't feel like writing a magazine's worth of words in a few days, hahaha.

[Xan2341]

Originally Posted by hihoperorin

Btw, I wonder where everyone went, ah, they probably didn't feel like writing a magazine's worth of words in a few days, hahaha.

We've all been watching you both from the seirei discord server.

[jagt]

Originally Posted by Xan2341

We've all been watching you both from the seirei discord server.

I knew everyone is at the discord now but I thought you would be too busy having your own discussions there to mind ours.

[hihoperorin]

Haha, we must have too fun to watch, I guess.